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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/11/30

Timezone: UTC


00:00
surami
it uses altera chip
00:00
surami
i don't know it could be reprogrammed to do raw capture
00:00
surami
maybe it's possible
00:02
Bertl
what's the price and is some schematic available?
00:03
surami
459 euros + tax
00:03
Bertl
that's for two HDMI inputs, yes?
00:04
Bertl
or is that the version with 4 inputs?
00:04
surami
yes
00:04
surami
it's can be 4 too
00:05
surami
but i don't know any schematics about it
00:08
Bertl
well, it might work as is, if it can do raw recording
00:08
Bertl
but to reprogram it, one would need a schematic
00:11
surami
yes, and linux is not supported
00:11
Bertl
so not the best choice
00:13
surami
is there somebody, who is on this, i mean developing custom capture card?
00:14
Bertl
it isn't a project yet, but we are considering this option
00:16
surami
i see
00:24
surami
the before mentioned cards driver is directshow
00:24
surami
i mean with ffmpeg maybe the raw data could be captured without any loss
00:25
surami
or?
00:25
Bertl
directshow sounds like windows to me
00:25
surami
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/DirectShow
00:25
Bertl
I have no idea about windows solutions/options
00:25
surami
yes it is
00:26
surami
linux would be much more better.... eh
00:27
surami
this isn't a good solution
00:28
surami
that custom capture card should be developed
00:30
surami
good night Bertl!
00:31
surami
i go
00:31
Bertl
have a good night!
00:33
surami
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fsteinel_
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04:41
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
04:41
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
07:30
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10:12
surami
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10:47
surami
hi
10:57
g3gg0
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11:03
surami
i found something "new" about that that capture card, it has linux driver too :)
11:09
surami
so the new dataflow theory: beta 3xhdmi out -> capturecard (pcie x4) 3xhdmi -> pcie x4 to pcie x1 converter on the jetson tk1 sbc (runing ubuntu) -> ffmpeg raw capture -> sata3 ssd on the jetson tk1 sbc
11:09
surami
something like this
11:11
surami
but the MLV format would be the best from ML
11:12
surami
there are several good options for MLV -> CDNG
11:24
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12:59
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
12:59
Bertl
morning folks!
13:00
mars_
morning
13:00
Bertl
surami: sounds doable, double check that the card allows raw recording though, otherwise it might become problematic
13:02
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
13:03
Bertl
morning se6astian!
13:03
danieel
what level of raw? 0: not raw, everything changed to yuv, 1: raw, active video only data, 2: rawraw: full frame with data in blanking (ehm, in hdmi rather data from data islands), also there are other constraints: A) support of only CEA resolutions, B) support of ANY resolution
13:04
Bertl
yep, thanks, that would be the interesting part
13:04
se6astian
good morning :)
13:05
danieel
one entry for your table: Deltacast SDI cards: 2A = rawraw but locks only to compliant resolutions/timings
13:07
danieel
blackmagic SDI = 1A, supplies only active video + parsed audio
13:08
Bertl
nice, do you know if there is a card which supports deep color?
13:09
danieel
there are 12 bit modes in SDI, the situation with deltacast is that it needs to run in RAW capture and you can parse it yourself
13:09
danieel
i am not into hdmi.. so probably easier to build one than find one
13:11
Bertl
yeah, HDMI seems to be problematic regarding deep color, although some devices claim to support it (at least in future versions :)
13:12
danieel
receivers generally support it
13:13
danieel
also, with my experience with hdmi chips - they do change the bitstream, so you probably never get RAW out of it
13:14
Bertl
you mean, raw raw, yes?
13:14
danieel
(look at ug180 revB for ADV7611, p112-113)
13:15
danieel
there are so many multiplications and offsets so that it will be a luck to configure it in a way that every single input maps to every single ouptut code
13:16
danieel
by defalut setup it does ugly things, i were developing display interfaces with that chip
13:16
Bertl
I see what you mean
13:16
danieel
in SDI it is better defined, and probably the cards respect bit to bit copies
13:17
danieel
probably the DVI receivers are more dumb too... so that might be the way
13:17
Bertl
good point
13:21
danieel
you might want to add crc over each line to hdmi, to make it sort of SDIish
13:30
Bertl
SDI does per line CRC?
13:32
danieel
yes, and has also a incremented line number :)
13:32
surami
here are the capture card what i found till now: http://www.magewell.com/hardware/sdi-cards/xi400de-sdi/xi400de-sdi_specifications.html?lang=en
13:32
danieel
read the smtpe standard...
13:32
surami
hdmi: http://www.magewell.com/hardware/hdmi-cards/xi400de-hdmi/xi400de-hdmi_specifications.html?lang=en
13:33
danieel
as the pcie bw is limited, they have made the scaler on the card to overcome that limit?
13:41
surami
i don't understand what you ask
13:41
surami
Bertl?
13:42
Bertl
he would like to know details you probably don't have about the card :)
13:42
danieel
seems to be a Gen1 card anyway
13:44
surami
Bertl: i just asked, what do you think?
13:44
surami
:)
13:45
Bertl
well, what is the price for the 4 port sdi/hdmi card?
13:46
Bertl
(we would need at least 3 ports)
13:46
lab-bot
sebastian closed T169: lsm.apertus.org down as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T169
14:00
surami
Bertl: it depends on supplier and card type, what i saw: from 459 euros to 648 euros + tax
14:00
Bertl
okay, that probably is in the same range as the BM cards
14:29
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15:14
aombk2
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15:17
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17:31
danieel
Bertl: do not forget to support CEC or HEC for controlling the camera from the recorder
17:46
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17:51
Bertl
good idea
17:52
danieel
power might be nice to have close by too
18:04
philippej|away
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18:39
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18:46
troy_s
SDI is vastly more robust in field.
18:48
philippej
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18:56
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18:59
Bertl
troy_s: how so?
19:00
mooseboobs
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19:01
troy_s
A) Full size BNC connectors with lock vs Junk
19:01
troy_s
B) Full gauge cable vs Junk
19:01
troy_s
Connectors are the big one.
19:01
Bertl
nothing of that is specific to SDI :)
19:01
troy_s
Just saying..
19:01
troy_s
Good luck finding HDMI crap on an in field camera
19:02
troy_s
It is technological and usage based
19:02
troy_s
But you are better to listen to the screams of first assistants
19:02
Bertl
okay, so the argument is: because SDI commonly uses BNC and you normally don't find HDMI on in field cameras, it must be "better" yes?
19:02
troy_s
Ecosystem Bertl
19:03
troy_s
It isn't all this mythical "could" "if" "could"
19:03
troy_s
Which plagues these discussions
19:03
troy_s
It is "can" "does" "is" "proven over time"
19:03
Bertl
I wish you would simply stop generalizing
19:03
troy_s
I am doing my best
19:03
troy_s
Being deadly specific
19:04
Bertl
it would be much more productive if you said (for example):
19:04
troy_s
But the ecosystem doesn't care about HDMI by and large
19:04
Bertl
SDI has proven to be a good choice for in field because ...
19:04
troy_s
So the very real generalization is that it simply isn't supported
19:04
troy_s
This has been covered dozens of times in here
19:04
troy_s
Rexbron brought up at least five use cases for SDI over HDMI
19:05
troy_s
With practical real-world experience
19:05
Bertl
and if I remeber correctly, the protocol was not even remotely involved in those cases
19:05
troy_s
So yes. SDI is more robust in terms of cabling (according to just about every in field tech I have ever spoken with), transmission distance,
19:06
troy_s
And as silly as it seems, the actual connection protocols
19:06
troy_s
(And flange supports etc.)
19:06
troy_s
So when someone says "SDI" I doubt they are purely speaking of the technical protocol merits
19:07
troy_s
(Same for HDMI)
19:07
troy_s
But rather likely the larger ecosystem
19:08
Bertl
so, speaking from an eco system PoV
19:08
Bertl
SDI is currently defined up to 3Gbit
19:08
Bertl
how is that handled on 4k raw cameras/recorder?
19:08
Bertl
do they have 4 SDI cables connected?
19:09
troy_s
Bertl: Alexa has a built in codex system currently
19:09
troy_s
Codex was the glue for many years for ArriRaw
19:10
troy_s
And R3D uses their proprietary cards as does Sony
19:10
troy_s
All of those specifications are relatively easy to chase down online.
19:11
Bertl
so the question remains, how do those systems transfer raw 4k over SDI?
19:11
Bertl
is it simply a pack of 4 BNC coax cables?
19:12
troy_s
Not certain. Blackmagic rolls Decklinks
19:12
troy_s
Have a peek at the dox for the F65 and Alexa
19:13
troy_s
Dual link 12g SDI?
19:13
Bertl
not even remotely defined yet
19:13
Bertl
so I doubt there is an eco system around it
19:13
troy_s
3g, 6g, and 12g SDI seems to point to your speculation.
19:13
troy_s
There is
19:14
Bertl
but I'm interested in the beforementioned "in field" usage and the "ecosystem" you were talking about
19:14
troy_s
Again, the ecosystem tends to evolve around the company that delivers it relatively robustly first
19:15
Bertl
basically you said so far that every camera manufacturer cooks their own soup and provides their own solutions
19:15
troy_s
A) you only find SDI on cameras
19:15
troy_s
B) raw formats generally record to the "mag" in camera these days
19:16
troy_s
Older days had a larger codex toaster with large umbilical cord
19:16
Bertl
so we can speculate that SDI is mostly used to connect view finders/monitors and recording is solved in a proprietary way
19:17
troy_s
Yes, with SDI being more and more viable via Blackmagic-like devices I believe
19:17
troy_s
Decklink has a whole page too.
19:19
troy_s
(And I am not certain, but the Alexa M has an umbilical cord, possibly proprietary?)
19:24
danieel
Bertl: 4k is done over 4x SDI links (might be 4x1.5G for 4k/30 and 4x 3G for 4k/60), the big overhead is caused by compatibility and need to transfer YCbCr, not raw
19:25
danieel
for raw, most 4k cameras are fine with 2x 3G SDI, (canon C500, arri alexa)
19:26
danieel
mine does it with 2x1.5G even
19:27
danieel
BM makes 6G, for 4k yuv 30p (=4x 1.5G payload), now jumping to 12G for 60fps yuv
19:39
Bertl
i.c.
19:45
surami
are the firmmware of the BM cards upgradeable?
19:46
Bertl
most likely, nobody nowadays gives away that option
19:47
surami
:)
19:50
danieel
there is an usb port with a mcu for that
19:50
danieel
funny enough, for dual cards they have that circuit twice there too :)
19:51
surami
:)
20:07
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
20:07
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
20:10
troy_s
danieel: Do you use two actual connectors to deliver the signal?
20:10
troy_s
So a wound pair of cables with two standard BNC connectors at the feed end?
20:11
danieel
yes, i use a pair of cables
20:12
danieel
(in protocol/sw i have cable id, so it can be connected in any order)
20:16
troy_s
danieel: Does yours roll to a DeckLink?
20:17
danieel
nope, it cant capture raw data
20:17
danieel
same situation as with canon raw / arriraw
20:30
troy_s
Urf. Is the YCbCr transform non-float?
20:30
troy_s
Because you could get 1:1 in /out if it were.
20:31
danieel
??
20:35
troy_s
Apparently there is an RGB mode
20:35
danieel
raw in all the mentioned cameras is bayer
20:43
troy_s
Should be plausible though if it transmitted non-mangled RGB
20:44
troy_s
(16 or 32 bit greyscale linear would be ideal of course)
20:49
danieel
it is usually transmitted log (canon, arri), i did linear as it was simpler and keeps all codes out of sensor
20:50
danieel
it is hard to get 16 bits out of the sensor, so it makes not much sense
20:50
troy_s
Sorry
20:50
troy_s
I meant that it must be protocoled at linear
20:50
troy_s
Could be log or whatever you want
20:50
troy_s
But the protocol can't be futzing with the bits.
20:51
danieel
it is not.. so what are your worries?
20:51
troy_s
Huh?
20:53
danieel
canon/arri push the 14/16 bits into 10/12bit by log mapping.. (probably they use the limited 10 bits), i transfer bit perfect copy of 12 bit data
20:54
danieel
the protocol does not change the bits.. but the stream is unwatchable on usual equipment
21:58
se6astian
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22:20
davidak
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22:39
surami
good night!
22:39
surami
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23:00
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
23:00
Bertl
back now ...
23:58
davidak
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