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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/11/30

Timezone: UTC


23:00
surami
it uses altera chip
23:00
surami
i don't know it could be reprogrammed to do raw capture
23:00
surami
maybe it's possible
23:02
Bertl
what's the price and is some schematic available?
23:03
surami
459 euros + tax
23:03
Bertl
that's for two HDMI inputs, yes?
23:04
Bertl
or is that the version with 4 inputs?
23:04
surami
yes
23:04
surami
it's can be 4 too
23:05
surami
but i don't know any schematics about it
23:08
Bertl
well, it might work as is, if it can do raw recording
23:08
Bertl
but to reprogram it, one would need a schematic
23:11
surami
yes, and linux is not supported
23:11
Bertl
so not the best choice
23:13
surami
is there somebody, who is on this, i mean developing custom capture card?
23:14
Bertl
it isn't a project yet, but we are considering this option
23:16
surami
i see
23:24
surami
the before mentioned cards driver is directshow
23:24
surami
i mean with ffmpeg maybe the raw data could be captured without any loss
23:25
surami
or?
23:25
Bertl
directshow sounds like windows to me
23:25
surami
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/DirectShow
23:25
Bertl
I have no idea about windows solutions/options
23:25
surami
yes it is
23:26
surami
linux would be much more better.... eh
23:27
surami
this isn't a good solution
23:28
surami
that custom capture card should be developed
23:30
surami
good night Bertl!
23:31
surami
i go
23:31
Bertl
have a good night!
23:33
surami
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fsteinel_
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03:41
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
03:41
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
06:30
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09:12
surami
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09:47
surami
hi
09:57
g3gg0
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10:03
surami
i found something "new" about that that capture card, it has linux driver too :)
10:09
surami
so the new dataflow theory: beta 3xhdmi out -> capturecard (pcie x4) 3xhdmi -> pcie x4 to pcie x1 converter on the jetson tk1 sbc (runing ubuntu) -> ffmpeg raw capture -> sata3 ssd on the jetson tk1 sbc
10:09
surami
something like this
10:11
surami
but the MLV format would be the best from ML
10:12
surami
there are several good options for MLV -> CDNG
10:24
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11:59
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
11:59
Bertl
morning folks!
12:00
mars_
morning
12:00
Bertl
surami: sounds doable, double check that the card allows raw recording though, otherwise it might become problematic
12:02
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
12:03
Bertl
morning se6astian!
12:03
danieel
what level of raw? 0: not raw, everything changed to yuv, 1: raw, active video only data, 2: rawraw: full frame with data in blanking (ehm, in hdmi rather data from data islands), also there are other constraints: A) support of only CEA resolutions, B) support of ANY resolution
12:04
Bertl
yep, thanks, that would be the interesting part
12:04
se6astian
good morning :)
12:05
danieel
one entry for your table: Deltacast SDI cards: 2A = rawraw but locks only to compliant resolutions/timings
12:07
danieel
blackmagic SDI = 1A, supplies only active video + parsed audio
12:08
Bertl
nice, do you know if there is a card which supports deep color?
12:09
danieel
there are 12 bit modes in SDI, the situation with deltacast is that it needs to run in RAW capture and you can parse it yourself
12:09
danieel
i am not into hdmi.. so probably easier to build one than find one
12:11
Bertl
yeah, HDMI seems to be problematic regarding deep color, although some devices claim to support it (at least in future versions :)
12:12
danieel
receivers generally support it
12:13
danieel
also, with my experience with hdmi chips - they do change the bitstream, so you probably never get RAW out of it
12:14
Bertl
you mean, raw raw, yes?
12:14
danieel
(look at ug180 revB for ADV7611, p112-113)
12:15
danieel
there are so many multiplications and offsets so that it will be a luck to configure it in a way that every single input maps to every single ouptut code
12:16
danieel
by defalut setup it does ugly things, i were developing display interfaces with that chip
12:16
Bertl
I see what you mean
12:16
danieel
in SDI it is better defined, and probably the cards respect bit to bit copies
12:17
danieel
probably the DVI receivers are more dumb too... so that might be the way
12:17
Bertl
good point
12:21
danieel
you might want to add crc over each line to hdmi, to make it sort of SDIish
12:30
Bertl
SDI does per line CRC?
12:32
danieel
yes, and has also a incremented line number :)
12:32
surami
here are the capture card what i found till now: http://www.magewell.com/hardware/sdi-cards/xi400de-sdi/xi400de-sdi_specifications.html?lang=en
12:32
danieel
read the smtpe standard...
12:32
surami
hdmi: http://www.magewell.com/hardware/hdmi-cards/xi400de-hdmi/xi400de-hdmi_specifications.html?lang=en
12:33
danieel
as the pcie bw is limited, they have made the scaler on the card to overcome that limit?
12:41
surami
i don't understand what you ask
12:41
surami
Bertl?
12:42
Bertl
he would like to know details you probably don't have about the card :)
12:42
danieel
seems to be a Gen1 card anyway
12:44
surami
Bertl: i just asked, what do you think?
12:44
surami
:)
12:45
Bertl
well, what is the price for the 4 port sdi/hdmi card?
12:46
Bertl
(we would need at least 3 ports)
12:46
lab-bot
sebastian closed T169: lsm.apertus.org down as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T169
13:00
surami
Bertl: it depends on supplier and card type, what i saw: from 459 euros to 648 euros + tax
13:00
Bertl
okay, that probably is in the same range as the BM cards
13:29
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14:14
aombk2
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14:17
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16:31
danieel
Bertl: do not forget to support CEC or HEC for controlling the camera from the recorder
16:46
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16:51
Bertl
good idea
16:52
danieel
power might be nice to have close by too
17:04
philippej|away
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17:39
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17:46
troy_s
SDI is vastly more robust in field.
17:48
philippej
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17:56
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17:59
Bertl
troy_s: how so?
18:00
mooseboobs
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18:01
troy_s
A) Full size BNC connectors with lock vs Junk
18:01
troy_s
B) Full gauge cable vs Junk
18:01
troy_s
Connectors are the big one.
18:01
Bertl
nothing of that is specific to SDI :)
18:01
troy_s
Just saying..
18:01
troy_s
Good luck finding HDMI crap on an in field camera
18:02
troy_s
It is technological and usage based
18:02
troy_s
But you are better to listen to the screams of first assistants
18:02
Bertl
okay, so the argument is: because SDI commonly uses BNC and you normally don't find HDMI on in field cameras, it must be "better" yes?
18:02
troy_s
Ecosystem Bertl
18:03
troy_s
It isn't all this mythical "could" "if" "could"
18:03
troy_s
Which plagues these discussions
18:03
troy_s
It is "can" "does" "is" "proven over time"
18:03
Bertl
I wish you would simply stop generalizing
18:03
troy_s
I am doing my best
18:03
troy_s
Being deadly specific
18:04
Bertl
it would be much more productive if you said (for example):
18:04
troy_s
But the ecosystem doesn't care about HDMI by and large
18:04
Bertl
SDI has proven to be a good choice for in field because ...
18:04
troy_s
So the very real generalization is that it simply isn't supported
18:04
troy_s
This has been covered dozens of times in here
18:04
troy_s
Rexbron brought up at least five use cases for SDI over HDMI
18:05
troy_s
With practical real-world experience
18:05
Bertl
and if I remeber correctly, the protocol was not even remotely involved in those cases
18:05
troy_s
So yes. SDI is more robust in terms of cabling (according to just about every in field tech I have ever spoken with), transmission distance,
18:06
troy_s
And as silly as it seems, the actual connection protocols
18:06
troy_s
(And flange supports etc.)
18:06
troy_s
So when someone says "SDI" I doubt they are purely speaking of the technical protocol merits
18:07
troy_s
(Same for HDMI)
18:07
troy_s
But rather likely the larger ecosystem
18:08
Bertl
so, speaking from an eco system PoV
18:08
Bertl
SDI is currently defined up to 3Gbit
18:08
Bertl
how is that handled on 4k raw cameras/recorder?
18:08
Bertl
do they have 4 SDI cables connected?
18:09
troy_s
Bertl: Alexa has a built in codex system currently
18:09
troy_s
Codex was the glue for many years for ArriRaw
18:10
troy_s
And R3D uses their proprietary cards as does Sony
18:10
troy_s
All of those specifications are relatively easy to chase down online.
18:11
Bertl
so the question remains, how do those systems transfer raw 4k over SDI?
18:11
Bertl
is it simply a pack of 4 BNC coax cables?
18:12
troy_s
Not certain. Blackmagic rolls Decklinks
18:12
troy_s
Have a peek at the dox for the F65 and Alexa
18:13
troy_s
Dual link 12g SDI?
18:13
Bertl
not even remotely defined yet
18:13
Bertl
so I doubt there is an eco system around it
18:13
troy_s
3g, 6g, and 12g SDI seems to point to your speculation.
18:13
troy_s
There is
18:14
Bertl
but I'm interested in the beforementioned "in field" usage and the "ecosystem" you were talking about
18:14
troy_s
Again, the ecosystem tends to evolve around the company that delivers it relatively robustly first
18:15
Bertl
basically you said so far that every camera manufacturer cooks their own soup and provides their own solutions
18:15
troy_s
A) you only find SDI on cameras
18:15
troy_s
B) raw formats generally record to the "mag" in camera these days
18:16
troy_s
Older days had a larger codex toaster with large umbilical cord
18:16
Bertl
so we can speculate that SDI is mostly used to connect view finders/monitors and recording is solved in a proprietary way
18:17
troy_s
Yes, with SDI being more and more viable via Blackmagic-like devices I believe
18:17
troy_s
Decklink has a whole page too.
18:19
troy_s
(And I am not certain, but the Alexa M has an umbilical cord, possibly proprietary?)
18:24
danieel
Bertl: 4k is done over 4x SDI links (might be 4x1.5G for 4k/30 and 4x 3G for 4k/60), the big overhead is caused by compatibility and need to transfer YCbCr, not raw
18:25
danieel
for raw, most 4k cameras are fine with 2x 3G SDI, (canon C500, arri alexa)
18:26
danieel
mine does it with 2x1.5G even
18:27
danieel
BM makes 6G, for 4k yuv 30p (=4x 1.5G payload), now jumping to 12G for 60fps yuv
18:39
Bertl
i.c.
18:45
surami
are the firmmware of the BM cards upgradeable?
18:46
Bertl
most likely, nobody nowadays gives away that option
18:47
surami
:)
18:50
danieel
there is an usb port with a mcu for that
18:50
danieel
funny enough, for dual cards they have that circuit twice there too :)
18:51
surami
:)
19:07
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
19:07
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
19:10
troy_s
danieel: Do you use two actual connectors to deliver the signal?
19:10
troy_s
So a wound pair of cables with two standard BNC connectors at the feed end?
19:11
danieel
yes, i use a pair of cables
19:12
danieel
(in protocol/sw i have cable id, so it can be connected in any order)
19:16
troy_s
danieel: Does yours roll to a DeckLink?
19:17
danieel
nope, it cant capture raw data
19:17
danieel
same situation as with canon raw / arriraw
19:30
troy_s
Urf. Is the YCbCr transform non-float?
19:30
troy_s
Because you could get 1:1 in /out if it were.
19:31
danieel
??
19:35
troy_s
Apparently there is an RGB mode
19:35
danieel
raw in all the mentioned cameras is bayer
19:43
troy_s
Should be plausible though if it transmitted non-mangled RGB
19:44
troy_s
(16 or 32 bit greyscale linear would be ideal of course)
19:49
danieel
it is usually transmitted log (canon, arri), i did linear as it was simpler and keeps all codes out of sensor
19:50
danieel
it is hard to get 16 bits out of the sensor, so it makes not much sense
19:50
troy_s
Sorry
19:50
troy_s
I meant that it must be protocoled at linear
19:50
troy_s
Could be log or whatever you want
19:50
troy_s
But the protocol can't be futzing with the bits.
19:51
danieel
it is not.. so what are your worries?
19:51
troy_s
Huh?
19:53
danieel
canon/arri push the 14/16 bits into 10/12bit by log mapping.. (probably they use the limited 10 bits), i transfer bit perfect copy of 12 bit data
19:54
danieel
the protocol does not change the bits.. but the stream is unwatchable on usual equipment
20:58
se6astian
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davidak
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21:39
surami
good night!
21:39
surami
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22:00
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
22:00
Bertl
back now ...
22:58
davidak
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