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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2013/10/30

Timezone: UTC


00:15
FergusL
joined the channel
00:15
FergusL
evening
00:15
FergusL
great news Bertl
00:15
FergusL
the new images
00:16
Bertl
you like them?
00:16
FergusL
yes
00:16
FergusL
I'm trying to think about suggestions for other test patterns
00:16
Bertl
great!
00:17
Bertl
but make it count, I guess I won't be able to do all the tests people will suggest, so give a good explanation what and why we are testing this or that
00:18
FergusL
ok
00:19
Bertl
for example, I also did a few tests regarding distortion, till I realized that this will only test the lens system, not the sensor :)
00:20
FergusL
well, obviously a Macbeth is roughly the same idea
00:20
FergusL
http://www.ae5d.com/macbeth.html
00:20
FergusL
a color checker
00:20
FergusL
but I get it you mean simple things to test
00:21
Bertl
send me one and I'll put it up there, it looks like it has the right size and weight
00:22
FergusL
well I don't have one, it's a rather precise and costly thing
00:23
FergusL
but it's definitely something needed too for camera engineering
00:23
Bertl
well, amazon seems to sell it for 72 USD, so not _that_ expensive
00:23
Bertl
still not something I will order myself :)
00:24
FergusL
yes ! but some people would probably laugh at such a price for "a piece of cardboard with color squares"
00:25
FergusL
well, as a donation to Apertus I can still order one and get it sent to your home
00:27
Bertl
go ahead if you think we should have one (address on pm)
00:30
Bertl
I was suprised how good the colors are even without white balance and corrections
00:30
Bertl
(on the test image)
00:30
FergusL
yes
00:30
FergusL
I'm going to try to get someone there
00:31
FergusL
a lead grip in the USA but who knows a huge lot about color theory, video signals, colorspace science etc...
00:35
dmj_nova
Bertl: How about testing under 41ms?
00:36
dmj_nova
since a cinema camera will require exposures at least that fast
00:36
FergusL
hi dmj_nova
00:37
FergusL
you know the guy I just refered to :)
00:38
Bertl
dmj_nova: no problem with that, I tested down to 1ms
00:38
Bertl
but I need a lot light for that :)
00:38
dmj_nova
Bertl: How is the noise/low-light performance at that speed?
00:39
dmj_nova
(or in the 20-41ms region)
00:39
Bertl
define low light
00:40
dmj_nova
Well, that's a little subjective
00:41
dmj_nova
I'm just asking for a general feel for it's performance.
00:42
dmj_nova
You wouldn't happen to have any other cameras to compare with?
00:42
FergusL
that wouldn't tell much I'm afraide
00:42
FergusL
-e
00:43
FergusL
one has to realise how down to the barebones these pictures and the setup are
00:43
dmj_nova
It wouldn't tell anything about the sensor's sensitivity and noise?
00:44
Bertl
you can check the histogram regarding noise
00:44
dmj_nova
(of course I wouldn't be surprised if the RAWs from existing cameras have some post processed filtering going on)
00:45
FergusL
rather the other camera would tell something we don't care about: it'd already be filtered, denoised, we have no way to get into the black boxes these are
00:45
FergusL
he
00:45
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/hist.svg
00:45
Bertl
this is basically with the cap on (and no black level adjustments)
00:45
FergusL
I just had an idea for a catch phrase : "The only transparent camera oscura"
00:47
Bertl
yeah, well, not sure that works that well, as the camera part is still dark (except for the image)
00:47
dmj_nova
FergusL: Well, it would give someone an idea of the illumination provided.
00:48
dmj_nova
From the existing pictures it's not possible to tell how bright/dim the subject is.
00:48
Bertl
the illumination for the image came exclusively from an LG TFT monitor :)
00:48
Bertl
(showing an uniform white screen)
00:49
FergusL
I'm curious, did you make pictures of the setup itself ?
00:50
FergusL
changed nick to: FergusL_Test
00:50
dmj_nova
Yeah, pictures of the setup would be good
00:52
Bertl
not yet, but let me describe it to you
00:53
Bertl
the zedboard is mounted on a base which tilts it 30° so that I can easily see the LEDs and access the switches
00:54
Bertl
the base itself stands on my right side in front of the LG TFT which is placed about 20cm higher than the zedboard
00:55
Bertl
the sensor adapter and lens mount face upwards, at the 30° angle (caused by the base)
00:56
Bertl
to put the paper at the right place/position I built a simple grid out of 10x3mm wood (used for model airplanes)
00:57
Bertl
which I position with one side on top of the monitor, and on the other side (with some spider legs) on the table
00:57
Bertl
in such way, that it also has a 30° angle compare to the table
00:58
Bertl
the center of the wooden grid is in line with the optical axis
00:59
FergusL_Test
I see
00:59
Bertl
I have a small flood light (120W) sitting on the table which can be used to illuminate the area
00:59
Bertl
I can probably find a neon light as well if that is of interest
01:00
Bertl
but for the color test I decided to simply turn the monitor to white and use that
01:00
Bertl
because the flood light is very yellowish
01:02
Bertl
so the backlight from the monitor basically hits the page at 60° from the left
01:03
Bertl
that's why the white paper looks brighter on the left side than on the right
01:06
FergusL_Test
I think I understood the setupà
01:11
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e5ms_flood.png
01:11
Bertl
this for example is 5ms with the flood light on
01:12
Bertl
(I can upload the raws for that as well if there is interest, but it will take some time)
01:13
Bertl
note that we are not using any digital gain yet, but the basic configuration has analog gain enabled
01:13
Bertl
I'll upload the sensor settings for clarification
01:15
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/cmv_init.sh
01:19
FergusL_Test
great to see this, let me take a look !
01:19
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e5ms_TFT.png
01:19
Bertl
here the same scene illuminated by the TFT (5ms)
01:21
FergusL_Test
it captures a lot of the details of the tape !
01:23
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e5ms_18Wneon.png
01:27
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e50ms_18Wfluorescent.png
01:27
Bertl
(I changed neon to fluorescent in the other url as well)
01:29
Bertl
note, those are debayered and scaled down (obviously)
01:30
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e40ms_18Wfluorescent.png
01:30
FergusL_Test
yes
01:30
FergusL_Test
I could note that
01:30
Bertl
that is 40ms, so 25 FPS with an 18W fluorescent bulb as only illumination
01:31
Bertl
at 5.6 aperture
01:32
Bertl
or should it be aperture 5.6 ?
01:32
FergusL_Test
I'd go with f/5.6 !
01:32
FergusL_Test
very interesting to see the sensor configuration
01:33
FergusL_Test
are there a lot of available options ? are these what the complete sensor documentation refers to ?
01:33
Bertl
there are quite a number of options relating to the actual image
01:34
Bertl
there are two exposure times, each 24bit
01:34
Bertl
two exposure knee points, each 24bit
01:34
Bertl
then there is a register to set the number of slopes
01:35
Bertl
there is a dark offset for the bottom and top rows
01:35
Bertl
(where bottom and top refers to the LVDS readout channels)
01:35
FergusL_Test
isn't that the special mode ?
01:35
FergusL_Test
with two knees
01:35
Bertl
yes,
01:36
Bertl
then there is a PGA divider and PGA gain (that is the analog gain)
01:36
Bertl
a 5 bit digital gain
01:37
Bertl
and at least 8 registers which are somewhat involved in the imaging process but do not have an explanation
01:37
Bertl
they need to be set to certain values at certain modes
01:38
FergusL_Test
okay, I see
01:38
FergusL_Test
really interesting
01:38
Bertl
so you can do up to three slopes with two kneepoints
01:39
FergusL_Test
yes
01:39
Bertl
and you can set the voltages and exposure times for each of them independantly
01:39
FergusL_Test
are you expecting much from this mode ?
01:41
Bertl
I guess it can be very useful (similar to HDR for photo cameras)
01:41
FergusL_Test
yes, I'm well aware of what it would do
01:41
FergusL_Test
but I'm worried about some artifacts it would create
01:42
FergusL_Test
actually, I'm all fine with the 10 stops range in the normal mode
01:44
Bertl
from the way how it is implemented, I do not really expect any artefacts
01:44
FergusL_Test
we discussed a lot about that in the forum
01:44
FergusL_Test
there might be issues with neighbouring pixels used to Debayer
01:45
Bertl
really, could you give me a link or a quick summary?
01:45
FergusL_Test
like, one pixel was captured before one knee
01:46
FergusL_Test
and the neighbour is after the knee
01:46
FergusL_Test
and there it is, afaik, the Bayer calculation is messed
01:46
Bertl
why should it be?
01:47
FergusL_Test
because it's maths ! it's assuming it's in the same "space"
01:47
Bertl
well, that just means that the debayering doesn't know about the transformation function
01:47
FergusL_Test
but maybe I'm misunderstanding it
01:48
Bertl
which is bad in any case, same happens with gamma correction
01:48
FergusL_Test
absolutely
01:48
Bertl
(if the algorithm isn't aware of the curve)
01:49
Bertl
but even if we are talking a really big difference between neighbouring pixels (i.e. a huge contrast) I don't think that it will matter much
01:49
FergusL_Test
this is a crucial point, even without considering this SuperPowerUltraMultipleKneeHugeRangeThatWillGiveDslrsOwnersAHArdOn
01:50
Bertl
but that is something which can be tried and tested via simulation
01:50
FergusL_Test
okay then !
01:50
Bertl
i.e. you do not need to use a sensor for that
01:50
FergusL_Test
true
01:51
FergusL_Test
all this will be crucial knowledge for linearizing
01:56
Bertl
guess so
01:58
FergusL_Test
familiar with that part ?
01:58
Bertl
no, but I'm reading up on that right now
01:59
Bertl
(well I know linearization but in the math context :)
01:59
FergusL_Test
it's the process of "unbending" any transform that has been applied to the image data so that it can go through calculations without being messed up
02:00
FergusL_Test
like, if you apply a gamma correction
02:00
Bertl
got it!
02:01
FergusL_Test
you *have* to tell the computer/software about it in the most precise manner so that it doesn't assume anything
02:01
Bertl
yes, so that definitely will require the knee points and voltages to work
02:01
FergusL_Test
totally-totally-totally
02:01
FergusL_Test
even without these, all informations are needed
02:02
Bertl
(or the resulting curve measured/tested with a known good gray table)
02:04
FergusL_Test
yes
02:08
FergusL_Test
that's all great
02:09
FergusL_Test
I'm happy to see this moving
02:10
Bertl
dmj_nova: http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e40ms_TFT_f1.8.png
02:13
FergusL_Test
should we keep all settings for the user ?
02:14
FergusL_Test
like, both digital and analog gain ?
02:15
Bertl
I don't think that the digital gain can be considered a typical user value
02:15
Bertl
it is more a sensor setting which depends on the bit depth
02:15
dmj_nova
Well, I think this just means that for debayering, the algorithm needs to account for the curve
02:15
Bertl
i.e. you probably want to choose 12/10/8 bit, but not the digital gain
02:16
dmj_nova
16 bit per color space would also allow for some room there too
02:16
Bertl
but as it is open source and open hardware, you're free to change it anyway :)
02:16
FergusL_Test
true, but I reckon I might not have understood what it does right
02:16
Bertl
the sensor can transfer data in 12/10 or 8 bit chunks
02:17
Bertl
so the sampled/digitized data needs to be adjusted to fit into this range
02:17
Bertl
the offset is basically one adjustment you can do
02:17
Bertl
the digital gain is the other
02:18
FergusL_Test
I understand "digital" better now
02:18
Bertl
of course, to use the sensor efficiently, it doesn't make much sense to use more or less than the full sensor range
02:19
Bertl
i.e. if you have 8 bit, you want code 255 represent the highest/lightest value and 0 the lowest/darkest one
02:19
FergusL_Test
yes
02:20
Bertl
and while analog gain gives you a 'better' range, digital gain just throws away bits :)
02:20
FergusL_Test
I see
02:20
dmj_nova
Yeah digital gain is unlikely to be useful
02:21
Bertl
very similar to those cameras with a 'digital zoom' feature :)
02:21
dmj_nova
better to save some metadata describing the color transform to perform later
02:21
Bertl
sure, you can show 4 pixels instead of one, but it doesn't really help with magnification
02:22
Bertl
it is really tricky to focus ATM, I have to get the hdmi out working soon :)
02:23
Bertl
i.e. output the sensor image in realtime via HDMI :)
02:24
dmj_nova
focusing at F/1.8 can be challenging
02:25
Bertl
especially if it takes like 10 seconds to see the image :)
02:26
FergusL_Test
I guess there are focus marks on the barrel ?
02:26
Bertl
well, yes, there is a 0.45 and 0.5 marked
02:26
FergusL_Test
and that you know precisely the distance, but indeed that's not enough
02:27
Bertl
and it also has some funny numbers below 22 11 | 11 22
02:27
Bertl
(not sure they are related :)
02:28
FergusL_Test
that erh... that's the aperture
02:28
Bertl
hmm, that is on the other side IMHO
02:28
FergusL_Test
there are some lines going from 11 to the focus line ?
02:28
Bertl
let me take a picture for you :)
02:29
FergusL_Test
it's here to give a rough idea of what depth of field you'll get at what f/
02:30
Bertl
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CnjgPJ%2BjL.jpg
02:30
Bertl
google was faster than taking a picture with my phone
02:32
Bertl
so, the 22 means, with f/22 I get about this range, yes?
02:32
FergusL_Test
yes
02:32
Bertl
okay, got it
02:33
Bertl
now it actually makes sense :)
02:33
Bertl
thanks for the explanation!
02:33
FergusL_Test
you're welcome
02:35
Bertl
and do you also know what that tiny switch is for (on the top right in the picture)?
02:35
Bertl
(if it is a switch at all, but it looks like one)
02:36
FergusL_Test
hm
02:36
FergusL_Test
could that be the auto/manual focus switch ?
02:36
Bertl
yeah, that would make sense, as it has AF (according to the spec)
02:37
Bertl
(not that we can use that)
02:37
FergusL_Test
yes
02:38
FergusL_Test
if there is no other switch it must be that
02:42
Bertl
with longer exposures, something strange starts to happen
02:44
FergusL_Test
hm... !
02:44
Bertl
and do you also know what that tiny switch is for (on the top right in the picture)?http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e1.5s_TFT_f11.png
02:44
Bertl
*arg*
02:44
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e1.5s_TFT_f11.png
02:45
FergusL_Test
the pixels ?
02:45
Bertl
yep
02:46
FergusL_Test
well, I noticed these in one of the very first pictures
02:46
FergusL_Test
that were 4K
02:46
FergusL_Test
I assumed it was also because of using a defective sensor ?
02:47
Bertl
not sure about that, looks more like some kind of statistical effect
02:48
Bertl
like high energy particles discharging the pixels or so
02:49
FergusL_Test
oh
02:50
Bertl
hmm, no, actually it looks like they are pixel specific
02:51
Bertl
i.e. certain pixels reach some kind of limit and then go bright
02:51
Bertl
can probably be somewhat compensated if you know all the pixels personally :)
02:52
Bertl
OTOH, exposure times of more than a second are probably quite unrealistic for a movie camera
02:52
FergusL_Test
is there some calibration done ?
02:52
Bertl
nope, no calibration, nothing, just raw data
02:52
FergusL_Test
is it planned at some point ?
02:53
Bertl
yes, definitely
02:53
Bertl
although I'm not sure that this is something which should be done entirely in the camera
02:54
FergusL_Test
I think it sould be done everytime the camera starts up, some kind of light calibration
02:54
FergusL_Test
I think some cameras do that
02:54
Bertl
what's the procedure?
02:55
FergusL_Test
uh, I don't know...
02:56
Bertl
okay, no problem, just I can't think of any sane calibration which could be done without some kind of reference input
02:56
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e3s_TFT_f22.png
02:56
Bertl
here you can see the same pixels are brighter
02:57
Bertl
so it is a statistical process but a fixed one, i.e. the pixels discharge at different rates
02:58
FergusL_Test
could it be sync issues in the charge/discharge cycle ?
02:58
FergusL_Test
could be interesting to have several images at this point
02:59
FergusL_Test
I mean, at a video rate
02:59
Bertl
I'd say they will stay at fixed places/positions
03:00
FergusL_Test
ok
03:02
Bertl
ah, yes, check this out:
03:02
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/cap_e3s.png
03:03
Bertl
this is with the lens cap on
03:03
Bertl
I'm pretty sure you can substract that from the other images
03:05
FergusL_Test
it's hard to tell with such a resolution
03:09
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e3s_TFT_f22_clean.png
03:09
FergusL_Test
what made it clean ?
03:09
FergusL_Test
dust on the bottom ?
03:09
Bertl
just simply subtracted the cap image from the 3s image and then streched the HSV
03:10
Bertl
so that is definitely something instrinsic to the sensor
03:10
FergusL_Test
haa
03:10
FergusL_Test
yes
03:10
Bertl
i.e. a per pixel bias or whatever
03:12
Bertl
anyway, I'm off to bed now ... so you win tonight :)
03:12
Bertl
(in the stay up all night contest, that is :)
03:13
FergusL_Test
haha, I got it
03:13
FergusL_Test
what else did I win ?
03:13
Bertl
you won a bunch of fancy pictures you can show around *G*
03:13
FergusL_Test
maybe some other night I'll win the "Fix an issue with the code/setup/whatever" hehe
03:13
Bertl
anyway, thanks for the chat, it was quite informative
03:14
Bertl
an have fun!
03:14
FergusL_Test
thank you, you too
03:14
FergusL_Test
see you tomorrow
04:14
FergusL_Test
left the channel
06:04
Sasha_C
joined the channel
07:07
Sasha_C
left the channel
07:10
se6astian
joined the channel
09:04
Sasha_C
joined the channel
09:28
troy_s
joined the channel
09:30
se6astian
hi sasha
09:30
se6astian
I think we will soon need a new progress update article
09:30
Sasha_C
Hi Sebastian. I saw the email train today, yeah!
09:30
Sasha_C
AMAZING news!
09:30
se6astian
now that herbert has cleaner images
09:31
Sasha_C
I'll start adding all of this new information to the article I've outlined.
09:32
Sasha_C
How are you today / tonight?
09:33
se6astian
great, very stressed ;)
09:33
Sasha_C
hope you're able to handle everything that's getting you stressed
09:35
Sasha_C
I noticed in the sample images that there's also some kind of pattern noise when you view the images at full resolution, alongside the obvious sensor defect noise.
09:38
Sasha_C
Using http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_400ms.png as an example, I can see a pattern noise (in the shape of vertical and horizontal lines) really evidently on the yellow band
09:43
mars_
on a side note (i just saw the flood light/tft/fluorescent images): i have calibrated white/grey cards at home, might come in handy if we want to do white balance calculations
09:56
se6astian
mars_,yes that would be great, maybe you can bring them when we meet on Monday?
09:57
se6astian
The FPN is quite normal since we compensate for nothing atm
09:58
mars_
yeah, i can bring them with me
10:02
se6astian
great
10:49
Sasha_C
left the channel
10:54
Sasha_C
joined the channel
12:05
Bertl
morning everyone!
12:31
se6astian
hello!
12:42
Bertl
Sasha_C: I think we still have a bunch of different effects
12:42
Bertl
there is definitely no calibration for top vs bottom readouts
12:43
Bertl
which in case of our sensor connection and read-out will give a two line pattern
12:44
Bertl
i.e. row 1 and row 3 is top, row 2 and row 4 is bottom
12:44
Bertl
or more general, even rows bottom, odd rows top readout
12:50
Bertl
then we are getting the data in blocks of 2x128 pixels
13:41
FergusL
joined the channel
13:42
FergusL
Hi here
13:42
FergusL
hi troy_s :)
13:42
cholik
joined the channel
13:43
Bertl
ah, lots of new? folks on the channel
13:43
Bertl
welcome troy_s! welcome cholik!
13:48
cholik
left the channel
13:48
FergusL
hi Bertl, I asked troy_s to join here
13:59
FergusL
but there is a slight timezone shift as he is in North America
13:59
FergusL
-7 I believe
14:06
Bertl
that's fine, we are usually up late anyway
14:07
Bertl
might only give a problem if he stays up late as well :)
14:07
FergusL
yes
14:07
FergusL
anything new since yesterday ?
14:08
Bertl
I just got up, had breakfast and I'm working my way through my inbox :)
14:09
FergusL
hehe I see
14:12
se6astian
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_500ms.png might be new depening on when you set the border to "yesterday"
14:13
Bertl
nah, FergusL is more up-to-date than you were when you woke up :)
14:13
FergusL
hello se6astian, indeed the border for "yesterday" was this night at around... maybe 4 ? or 5 ?
14:13
Sasha_C
left the channel
14:14
Bertl
se6astian: you should really get an irc client which is on 24/7 or some kind of irc bouncer
14:14
FergusL
have you seen the "stuck" pixels ?
14:15
se6astian
and I just ordered some sensor cleaning tools
14:15
se6astian
well if I have to read the entire night of IRC every time I wake up I will soon need an assistant :)
14:15
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e3s_TFT_f22.png (this is what FergusL is referring to)
14:16
Bertl
IMHO we are observing a pixel specific bias here
14:16
FergusL
ha cool about the cleaning tools
14:16
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/cap_e3s.png (same setting, just with the lens cap on :)
14:16
FergusL
what did you order ? "swabs" ?
14:19
se6astian
yes
14:19
FergusL
cool !
14:19
se6astian
and a "speckpen"
14:19
se6astian
airblower
14:20
FergusL
I see
15:03
neverlis
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se6astian
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15:23
Bertl
welcome neverlis!
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neverlis
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FergusL_
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FergusL
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FergusL_
changed nick to: FergusL
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simara
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simara
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21:29
Sasha_C
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21:44
Bertl
morning Sasha_C!
21:45
Sasha_C
morning bertl. Very exciting to see all the progress you're making!
21:45
Bertl
thanks!
21:45
Sasha_C
Thanks for clarifying my question regarding the sensor pattern noise
21:48
Bertl
yeah, not sure that is the noise you were seeing though
21:49
Sasha_C
yeah, maybe not noise, but it's something we should be aware of
21:49
Bertl
I think there is a reason why the sensor has a mode where the first and last 8 pixels in each row are replaced by so called 'black pixels'
21:49
Sasha_C
why is that?
21:49
Bertl
so that you can basically calibrate the noise floor/black level for each row
21:50
Bertl
while still recording a useful image
21:50
Sasha_C
that sounds pretty useful, no?
21:50
Sasha_C
i.c
21:50
Bertl
you probably won't miss the 16 pixels out of 4096
21:50
Sasha_C
yeah :D
21:51
Bertl
I also suspect some to-be-calibrated differences in columns, as they are grouped in 128 col groups
21:52
Bertl
and then finally, each pixel seems to have a slightly different time where it loses the charge without getting exposed
21:52
Sasha_C
So we'll have our work cut out for us trying to calibrate this sensor for a cinematic application
21:53
Bertl
at least that's how I interpret this one: http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/colors_e3s_TFT_f22.png
21:53
Bertl
while it will make sense to do a really good calibration and pre processing inside the camera, I don't think that it needs to be done (right now) in the camera
21:54
Bertl
i.e. most of the effects can be compensated with the raw data available
21:54
Sasha_C
ok, i understand
21:54
Sasha_C
fantastic!
21:54
Bertl
(and some kind of reference like the black columns)
21:55
Bertl
but yes, in the final AXIOM camera, we probably want to do as many of those corrections in the camera, directly on the raw data stream
21:59
Bertl
btw, I think our web presence is rather bad, no offence to you and sebastian, but I'm worried that we are losing momentum ...
21:59
Sasha_C
no offence taken
21:59
Sasha_C
I agree, we should be more active
21:59
Bertl
I google for 'axiom alpha' on a regular basis
21:59
Bertl
and all pages I get are either outdated or obsolete :)
21:59
Sasha_C
and stuff from 2012 comes up