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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2015/12/29

Timezone: UTC


00:27
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
00:27
Bertl
back now ..
00:28
pozitrono
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00:48
pozitron
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06:06
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
06:06
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
08:35
pozitron
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aombk2
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wakalixes
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wakalixes
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11:16
parasew
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11:16
wakalixes
hi parasew
11:16
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
11:17
parasew
hi all!
11:17
parasew
i will prepare a place where the AXIOM beta can be seen at 32c2, maybe in front of halle G
11:18
wakalixes
cool, I have sent you an email just now
11:18
se6astian
good day
11:19
wakalixes
if you need help setting up something at the 32C3, just let me know
11:19
wakalixes
parasew, at what time?
11:21
parasew
ah hi!
11:22
parasew
wakalixes, just sent you an email -- around 16h would be good, since there is too much before;
11:22
parasew
i guess near halle G or do you have a better place?
11:23
wakalixes
we would have an assembly table, but maybe this is full, we have to see
11:24
wakalixes
I guess grabbing a shared table near Hall G will work nicely
11:24
parasew
i am still waiting for confirmation of a meeting, if this does not take place we could meet already at 15h
11:25
wakalixes
at hall G then?
11:26
parasew
yes!
11:26
wakalixes
great, let me know the time by mail, got to go now
11:27
wakalixes
left the channel
11:42
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
11:42
Bertl
morning folks!
11:47
se6astian
good morning
11:47
se6astian
gotta go
11:47
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
12:02
ram_
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ram_
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12:48
parasew
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12:53
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
12:53
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
12:59
pozitrono
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13:11
root
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13:12
root
changed nick to: Guest39504
13:12
Guest39504
changed nick to: parasew
13:13
parasew
sebastian or herbert: can we make a rgb-overlay with the 32c3 logo for the beta? what image format is it?
13:15
parasew
sgi rgb?
13:16
Bertl_oO
that is a little trickier
13:17
Bertl_oO
but the 32c3 logo seems to be black and white, no?
13:18
parasew
https://gnusocial.de/attachments/481a67390bf8dac27f37d5f3de29c52bc4b19e75cc755ae0e929f30f5dd7d7d4.png
13:18
parasew
yes, black and white
13:18
parasew
(hi bertl ;)
13:18
Bertl_oO
the problem is, you can do rgb as well, there are enough colors available for the overlay, but it is based on a very specific indexing system
13:19
Bertl_oO
black and white on the contrary should be straight forward
13:19
parasew
can i use imagemagick?
13:20
parasew
or is this somewhere described in the wiki?
13:20
Bertl_oO
you can use whatever you like to generate the image (combine it with the beta overlay at the end)
13:21
Bertl_oO
then convert it to plain 8 bit rgb and load it with mimg
13:21
Bertl_oO
(size needs to be 1920x1080)
13:21
getzi
joined the channel
13:21
parasew
ah ok so straight forward 8-bit rgb
13:22
parasew
hi getzi
13:22
getzi
hey
13:22
Bertl_oO
yes, but the colors are not interpreted as one would expect yet
13:22
parasew
getzi how did you convert the last image?
13:22
getzi
imagemagick
13:24
parasew
can you paste your commandline=
13:24
getzi
convert, that is
13:24
parasew
yes i know :)
13:24
getzi
convert -size "1920x1080" -depth 8 -background none ~/file.png ~/file.rgb
13:25
Bertl_oO
channel 0 (red?) is used for encoding 8 bit grey and channel 1 (green) is used to determine transparency
13:25
parasew
getzi: it was working, but the rest of the image (background) was white and not transparent
13:26
Bertl_oO
move the alpha channel (probably inverted) to the green channel
13:27
LordVan
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13:27
Bertl_oO
you can take the overlay_05.rgb in /opt/IMG/ as example
13:27
Bertl_oO
just convert it back to .png and open it in gimp, then do similar modifications (color wise) for the additional logo
13:28
parasew
ah super, thats a good idea
13:28
parasew
are the overlays somewhere online?
13:29
parasew
(i dont have the beta with me at the moment)
13:29
getzi
scp it, then send me
13:29
Bertl_oO
probably, no idea where though
13:29
getzi
i see
13:29
Bertl_oO
parasew: you left the Beta alone?!
13:30
parasew
no
13:30
parasew
of course not :)
13:30
Bertl_oO
14:29 < parasew> (i dont have the beta with me at the moment)
13:30
parasew
its next to me in the bag
13:30
parasew
(in the suitcase)
13:30
parasew
but its not assembled
13:30
parasew
i mean not attached to power
13:30
Bertl_oO
you took it apart?!
13:31
parasew
no dont worry i did not take it apart :)
13:31
Bertl_oO
no worries, just pulling your leg :)
13:31
parasew
:)
13:32
parasew
there are some crowdfunding-backers here at 32c3, also a lot of interest for the camera
13:32
parasew
today i will show the cam to a small interested audience, so thats why i wanted to understand the overlays better
13:33
Bertl_oO
well, you can show how to enhance the ming.c by adding a full RGB mapping for the overlay?
13:34
parasew
if i would know how to do that, of course :)
13:34
Bertl_oO
it's actually not that hard:
13:34
Bertl_oO
https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/beta-software/blob/master/cmv_hdmi3/top.vhd#L2780
13:35
Bertl_oO
shows you what the upper 4 bits mean
13:35
Bertl_oO
(overlay is 16 bits per HDMI pixel)
13:36
Bertl_oO
a_v is the live view data (12bit, 3channels), b_v are the lower 12bit of the 16bit overlay data
13:36
parasew
ah ok!
13:36
Bertl_oO
c_v is a 4bit subvector based on the channel
13:37
Bertl_oO
o_v is the output produced according to the "rules"
13:38
Bertl_oO
any rule which involves scan_fcnt() is some kind of flashing/blinking
13:38
Bertl_oO
so e.g. for full color overlay, you can pick 0110 (4-msb)
13:39
Bertl_oO
which would make it semi-transparent (50/50 mix)
13:39
Bertl_oO
or 0010 which would make it solid (no mix with the live view)
13:40
Bertl_oO
mode 0000 means full transparency, i.e. only live view
13:40
Bertl_oO
and the lower 12 bit are 4 bit RGB
13:42
Bertl_oO
in mimg.c, there is an 'if (opt_overlay) {'
13:43
parasew
i wanted to try sort of pseudo-realtime overlays
13:43
Bertl_oO
where the current mapping from .rgb to overlay data happens
13:44
parasew
for example pulling a text and creating an overlay via imagemagic
13:44
Bertl_oO
sure, why not, only the mimg is currently very inefficient in loading an overlay
13:45
Bertl_oO
i.e. it takes quite some time to load it into all the four buffers
13:45
parasew
yes, but it should be fine for now
13:45
parasew
are you online later on?
13:45
Bertl_oO
probably
13:46
parasew
because i will be in the irc then when we demo the cam, so maybe someone has questions
13:46
parasew
(questions that i cannot answer :)
13:46
parasew
because i am of course trying
13:46
Bertl_oO
when will you start the presentation/q&a ?
13:50
parasew
we are meeting at 16:00 in front of saal g and we will then find a table
13:50
parasew
there are not much ppl, approx. 5
13:51
parasew
(until now, lets see then)
13:51
Bertl_oO
so probably not before 16:30 that you will have many questions :)
13:51
Bertl_oO
I'll make sure to be around then
13:51
parasew
but i just wanted to show them the basic interaction with the beta now
13:51
parasew
if you are around that would be super! thanks!
13:51
parasew
we might take ca. 15minutes to find a place and build up
13:57
parasew
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wakalixes
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14:51
parasew
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14:52
parasew
to anyone interested in the AXIOM beta demo at 32c3, we are gathering at the "crypto bar" in front of saal G. i am here already
14:57
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15:13
parasew
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parasew
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15:14
jatha
how many percent of your fpga cells are used with your current design?
15:14
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wakalixes
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15:17
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
15:22
Bertl
jatha: FF 10063/106400, LUTM 531/17400
15:28
jatha
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15:30
mgielda
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15:36
parasew
is the image-ram connected to the fpga or to the arm section
15:36
parasew
?
15:37
Bertl
both
15:37
Bertl
the DDR memory on the Microzed is connected to the DDR memory controller, which is shared between PS (arm cores) and PL (FPGA fabric)
15:43
Bertl
https://reference.digilentinc.com/_media/zybo:zyng1.png (this is for the zybo, but it is identical for all Zynq)
15:46
pozitron
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15:54
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
15:56
parasew
ah cool
15:57
se6astian
good evening
15:57
parasew
where is the source of the "mimg" tool?
15:57
Bertl
/opt/BERTL/ming.c
15:57
Bertl
if you change it, just run 'make' and use the ./mimg in /opt/BERTL
16:00
parasew
thank you :)
16:01
Bertl
np
16:10
mgielda
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16:24
LordVan
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16:37
se6astian
https://www.cinema5d.com/battle-of-the-camera-underdogs-blackmagic-design-vs-apertus-vs-kinefinity-on-the-couch-ep-27/
16:46
parasew_
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16:46
parasew_
hi all!
16:46
parasew_
we just created a 32c3 overlay for the axiom beta :)
16:47
Bertl
\o/
16:48
parasew_
bertl, just a quick question: are there theoretically cheaper cmosis sensors available, which are documented? possibly only for still images?
16:48
Bertl
don't forget to take a picture of the overlay
16:48
parasew_
yes ok i will take a pic :)
16:48
Bertl
basically all the Cmosis sensors are available with documentation
16:48
parasew_
ah awesome!
16:49
Bertl
one of the cheaper sensors is the CMV2k/4k
16:49
Bertl
which is a 16mm sensor
16:49
se6astian
with 2 megapixels/4 megapixels
16:50
parasew_
but would they theoretically also work with the axiom?
16:50
Bertl
as the AXIOM Beta allows for different sensors, we will also support the CMV2k/4k i the future
16:50
Bertl
*in
16:51
Bertl
we will also investigate the CMV20k (which is larger than the CMV12k, but also more expensive) in the future
16:53
parasew_
where are the actual prices of the cmosis sensors?
16:54
Bertl
se6astian knows them, but they really depend on the quantities (and can be requested from cmosis)
16:57
aombk2
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17:00
parasew_
i was wondering if we could theoretically use a cheaper sensor solution as alternative to the 4k one currently in use with the beta. there are a lot of developers interested, but they would also trade image resolution for the possibility of an open source cam :)
17:00
parasew_
(for a cheaper beta)
17:00
parasew_
maybe a *beta-light*
17:00
Bertl
as I said, the cmv2k/4k area lot cheaper and will be supported
17:01
parasew_
cmv8000?
17:01
aombk
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17:01
Bertl
not that interesting, IIRC
17:02
Bertl
but would be an option as well
17:03
parasew_
yes, i just wanted to know how much work it is to implement another sensor
17:03
Bertl
it requires a new sensor board, but that's basically it (from the hardware side)
17:03
Bertl
and of course, software support, but that will be not too much different from the cmv12k
17:06
parasew_
bertl, the kodak sensor, is there much price difference?
17:06
parasew_
(the one listed here http://apertus.org/axiom-beta-imagesensors )
17:07
Bertl
the KAC is cheaper than the cmv12k at small quantities
17:07
parasew_
ah ok.
17:08
Bertl
with the volume deals we arranged with cmosis, the difference is not that significant
17:13
parasew_
is there a possibility for a cheaper still image sensor?
17:14
Bertl
if you find one with open documentation, it shouldn't be hard to create a sensor frontend for :)
17:22
se6astian
also remember that the sensor is a major component of the Beta but not the only one
17:23
se6astian
the microzed also costs around 300â¬
17:24
parasew_
cool :)
17:25
se6astian
so even if we strip everything down and use cheaper alternatives whereever possible we are still looking at a BOM above ~1Kâ¬
17:25
Bertl
but also note, that you can use the Microzed as stand alone development board too
17:25
parasew_
ah true.
17:25
parasew_
but with the gamma we dont use microzed, right?
17:26
Bertl
correct, the Gamma uses a custom solution
17:27
parasew_
but would we use this custom solution in the beta at a later stage?
17:27
se6astian
which will be even more expensive :)
17:27
Bertl
parasew_: unlikely
17:28
Bertl
but we are constantly looking into alternatives to the Microzed (not that we are unhappy with it)
17:29
parasew_
ah ok..
17:29
parasew_
what else (besides the overlay) could we hack on the beta now? :)
17:29
Bertl
everything :)
17:30
se6astian
play with matrices maybe?
17:31
Bertl
you can do all kind of false color settings with the transformation matrix
17:32
Bertl
./mat4_conf.sh 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0.42 0.42 0
17:32
Bertl
for example
17:32
Bertl
or play with the gamma lut
17:33
parasew_
cmv_snap3 seems to not have all the settings as stated in the wiki (-x is missing? -n?)
17:33
Bertl
that is because this Beta doesn't have the sequence capture code
17:34
Bertl
(i.e. only the Beta irieger has is configured that way)
17:37
Bertl
but -h should give you a list of available options
17:38
wakalixes
yes, we tried to capture an image, it worked with the command for the alpha (as in the wiki)
17:50
troy_s
Bertl: I suppose we ought to craft a false colour matrix eh?
17:51
Bertl
the one given above should swap out colors nicely
17:51
troy_s
Typically it is green and blue in the 40% perceptual range
17:52
troy_s
I don't think that is possible with a matrix is it?
17:52
troy_s
To code based on range.
17:52
troy_s
http://www.arri.com/mobile/amirapg/images/on_set/exposure_and_focus_check_options.jpg
17:52
Bertl
no, but the LUTs work fine with different ranges
17:54
Bertl
i.e. if you map (via matrix) everything to grey and then use the gamma LUTs to create the specific colors
17:55
troy_s
Right.
17:55
troy_s
Yes we'd need a shaper LUT to do the mapping.
17:55
Bertl
(only thing you need to do is to build the LUT entries manually)
17:55
troy_s
That's not a big deal.
17:55
troy_s
Only issue is it would require settling on the PL
17:56
troy_s
Has anyone been fuddling with the PL?
17:57
Bertl
PL is what we call the FPGA fabric :)
17:59
troy_s
Fabric of spacetime warping
17:59
troy_s
Which is in the future I take it? (near?)
18:01
Bertl
the space-time warping? probably
18:02
wakalixes
left the channel
18:07
troy_s
The FPGA fabric weave.
18:07
troy_s
Sheesh.
18:09
Bertl
what do you want me to weave? :)
18:14
wakalixes
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18:16
troy_s
Bertl: I'm just wondering if anyone has been doing the tweaking on the PL registers to get the dynamic range capture into the zone desired for a closer-to-final format.
18:17
Bertl
ah, you mean the sensor registers
18:17
Bertl
I guess the current state we have with irieger's settings is quite good already
18:18
Bertl
I hope that se6astian & co will do some tests in the near future to confirm that
18:20
troy_s
Bertl: irieger's tests weren't using the piecewise linear however were they?
18:20
troy_s
Bertl: Which seems to ceiling out at around 9 and a bit stops last I looked?
18:21
Bertl
not as far as I know
18:21
troy_s
Bertl: Also, it will be obviously possible to adapt a unique piecewise linear per EI index yes?
18:22
Bertl
EI index?
18:22
troy_s
Exposure Index
18:22
wakalixes
hi Bertl
18:23
Bertl
hey wakalixes!
18:23
wakalixes
got a question about using some different sensors for scientific purposes
18:23
wakalixes
have you looked into this one:
18:23
wakalixes
http://www.fairchildimaging.com/catalog/focal-plane-arrays/scmos/cis2521
18:23
wakalixes
ultra-low noise readout of 2e-
18:23
Bertl
do you have an url for the full datasheet?
18:24
wakalixes
parasew thinks that Fairchild is not very cooperative
18:24
se6astian
we are in touch with BAE fairchild and might adopt their sensors in the future
18:24
se6astian
they do not provide open datasheets but we agreed we could share the datasheet with every customers who ultimately bought one
18:24
wakalixes
this sound promising
18:25
se6astian
so everyone who got their sensors in their AXIOM would get the full datasheet
18:25
se6astian
not perfect but acceptable for us
18:25
wakalixes
I was working with scientific cameras from Andor (e.g. the iXon CCD-camera)
18:26
wakalixes
and the price was above 20kâ¬
18:26
wakalixes
so many people in science are looking for good cameras
18:26
wakalixes
not necessarily for video, but the modularity and hackability is very important
18:26
Bertl
you know that the cmosis sensors come from a scientific background?
18:26
wakalixes
e.g. an external trigger for syncing the camera with an experiment
18:27
wakalixes
no, thought that the cmosis is intended for machine vision?
18:27
Bertl
ams acquires CMOSIS, a leading supplier of high-end area scan and miniature medical image sensors
18:27
wakalixes
for this speaks the fast readout and the definition of many range of interests for readout
18:28
Bertl
so, it probably depends on how you define 'scientific'
18:28
wakalixes
ah ok
18:28
wakalixes
sure
18:29
wakalixes
are there any ideas to use the multislope functionality of the CMOSIS sensor?
18:29
Bertl
well, we plan to use it for HDR
18:30
wakalixes
ok
18:30
parasew_
is there a way to get the overlay as a framebuffer device running?
18:31
wakalixes
the BAE CIS2521 delivers full pixel data for high gain and low gain
18:31
Bertl
parasew_: probably, but it would be rather slow
18:31
parasew_
why?
18:32
Bertl
because you need to write four pixels for each pixel and at very distant locations
18:33
parasew_
why are there the 4 buffers?
18:33
Bertl
because the live view uses a quad buffer system
18:34
troy_s
se6astian: Did you get along with the On The Couch peeps? The BM peep seems interesting.
18:34
parasew_
can you let the fpga mirror the buffers?
18:34
Bertl
troy_s: yeah, he is/was the typical highly trained PR guy
18:35
Bertl
parasew_: not sure what you mean
18:37
troy_s
Bertl: Fellow on far right seems a little out of depth with the BM peep.
18:37
troy_s
Bertl: Hooligan in the middle is a problem.
18:37
wakalixes
left the channel
18:37
parasew_
is it possible to let the fpga mirror one buffer to the others, so you just have to write in one buffer for making it faster
18:37
Bertl
troy_s: yeah, the kinefinity guy was quite unhappy, even when not on camera
18:38
troy_s
Bertl: Were you there too?
18:38
Bertl
yes, I was sitting in the first row and enjoying the talk :)
18:38
Bertl
parasew_: possible, yes, but probably not very smart
18:39
troy_s
Bertl: Kinefinity peep seems like someone who got involved wanting to sell the camera?
18:39
parasew_
davidak is asking when the case will be finished
18:39
Bertl
no idea, se6astian might know more there ...
18:40
Bertl
troy_s: well, the problem is/was that he was not authorized to say anything about the camera and he was always speaking of "their decisions" and "their developments" ... well, you get the idea :)
18:40
troy_s
Yes.
18:42
troy_s
irieger: Are your tweaked registers using the piecewise linear knees? What was the overall latitude?
18:42
Bertl
no, the register settings/changes are very minimal but effective
18:43
Bertl
they do not change the exposure or utilize the piecewise linear stuff yet
18:44
Bertl
(but I don't expect problems with the HDR modes)
18:44
troy_s
Most painful pinch point was that interviewer.
18:45
troy_s
I seem to remember irieger saying that the latitude sample was around 9.5ish stops.
18:45
Bertl
which most likely was without HDR
18:45
troy_s
HDR?
18:45
troy_s
Are we talking about the same thing?
18:45
Bertl
high dynamic range
18:45
troy_s
PWLC
18:45
troy_s
The piecewise linear curve?
18:45
Bertl
i.e. the piecewise linear stuff for example
18:45
troy_s
Ok.
18:45
troy_s
I cringe when I read HDR
18:46
troy_s
Because of the temporal crap hack crap
18:46
Bertl
the problem is that there are two different 'HDR' modes
18:46
Bertl
and the piecewise linear exposure is only one of them
18:46
troy_s
Need refreshing. Explain? One has that two / three pass thing with temporal nasty
18:47
troy_s
The piecewise linear is the only reasonable approach last I looked.
18:47
troy_s
The other one is like that goofy R3D HDR mode
18:47
Bertl
basically you can use different exposure per column or column block IIRC
18:47
troy_s
Which is fundamentally broken and useless unless you are hacking your way around something.
18:47
Bertl
or you can use the knee stuff on each sensel
18:47
troy_s
Knees are the most logical
18:48
troy_s
Largely due to the fact that it permits the sensor to actually respond log-like and closer to film etc.
18:48
troy_s
Without the lovely temporal artifacting.
18:48
Bertl
both extend the dynamic range
18:48
troy_s
Sure. One works. The other is goofy. ;)
18:48
parasew_
Bertl: framebuffer would be nice becouse then you can start a x server for the overlays and use some gui framework like gtk
18:49
Bertl
troy_s: and while the artefacts will be more subtle and evenly distributed, there will still be temporal artefacts in the PWL mode
18:49
troy_s
Bertl: Hm. Thinking through. mblur on pwlc mode?
18:50
Bertl
parasew_: which would add a lot of overhead and burn a hole in your Microzed
18:50
troy_s
What sort of distribution across the sensels can you apply with the PWLC
18:50
troy_s
Can it be stochastic or is it just uniform?
18:50
troy_s
(Stochastic would be closer to the silver on film)
18:51
Bertl
well, think moving grate, where the "early" exposure falls on dark areas and the "late" exposure on light ones, or vice versa
18:52
troy_s
Right. Which should be roughly closer to silver and distribute the temporal artifacting in a way that is similarly aesthetic with other mediums. I can't see that being unusual.
18:52
Bertl
so I'd say there is some testing required to evaluate the "quality"
18:53
Bertl
but I agree that the PWL mode is probably the most useful one
18:53
troy_s
(Where "usual" and "correct" would be defined by the existing learned aesthetic of course, aka "film")
18:54
Bertl
yeah, although "film" and established procedures are overrated IMHO :)
18:55
Bertl
for example, we haven't bothered (yet) to allow adjustments to the shutter angle
18:56
Bertl
and everybody I talked to basically told me that 180° are essential for a "good look"
18:56
parasew
Bertl: but the arm core is dedicated for controlling ourposes, isnit ist?
18:57
Bertl
troy_s: I doubt that we had that in any of our recordings :)
18:57
parasew
Bertl: and a raspberry pi can also render a few controls with gtk smothley
18:58
Bertl
parasew: not sure what ourposes are, but if they can be controlled we can control them :)
18:58
troy_s
Bertl: Well again, aesthetics are emergent so the 180 degree is a direct byproduct of 100 years of cinema.
18:59
troy_s
Bertl: For certain "film" isn't the end all, but the native compression of dynamic range was clever and fortuitous, hence why the PWLC emulating that sort of perceptual compression is a logical no-brainer.
18:59
troy_s
parasew: At the point you say GTK you have probably tuned out a large chunk of folks that were listening. ;)
18:59
Bertl
I totally agree
19:00
Bertl
(on the no-brainer :)
19:00
troy_s
Bertl: I actually have a huge bit of respect for the Arri imagers; they have taken the science of the image encode to a whole new level. The precise equal bits per stop is such a great engineering feat.
19:00
troy_s
Bertl: Have you seen this?
19:00
Bertl
nope, where can I see it?
19:00
troy_s
https://github.com/hpd/OpenColorIO-Configs/tree/master/aces_1.0.1/python/aces_ocio/colorspaces
19:01
troy_s
You can see the precise mathematical LogC inversions from ARRI, which is a direct reflection of the ArriRaw output.
19:01
Bertl
so that means that the ArriRaw is quite cooked (to LogC) then
19:02
troy_s
https://github.com/hpd/OpenColorIO-Configs/blob/master/aces_1.0.1/python/aces_ocio/colorspaces/arri.py#L96-L128
19:02
troy_s
Absolutely.
19:02
troy_s
Although it is hard to determine if the ArriRaw data blob
19:02
troy_s
bakes linear
19:02
parasew_
left the channel
19:02
troy_s
I can't see it.
19:02
parasew
left the channel
19:03
Bertl
nothing we can't do as well once we have all the details measured/calculated
19:03
troy_s
I mean that sensor would need ...
19:03
troy_s
Yep.
19:03
troy_s
That's a great gold standard reference baseline though.
19:03
troy_s
With less secret saucism as say, Sony.
19:03
troy_s
(All the transforms are there)
19:03
troy_s
I'm interested to see if the ArriRaw stores linear
19:04
troy_s
if it does, that sensor is ridiculously tuned and decent
19:04
troy_s
They get 14 stops of linear useful.
19:04
troy_s
Which is insane at 15000:1
19:04
troy_s
With no real marketing-ese
19:04
Bertl
that would mean at least 16bits, no?
19:04
Bertl
(which sounds a little over the top to be honest)
19:07
troy_s
Well
19:07
troy_s
That's my point...
19:07
troy_s
it _is_ 14 stops.
19:07
troy_s
15000:1
19:07
troy_s
Given it's historical lineage and when it was released, that
19:07
Bertl
so we can asume some kind of "HDR" mode doing the heavy lifting
19:07
troy_s
sure as hell smells like a piecewise / curve on that sensor doesn't it?
19:08
troy_s
I mean what is your guess?
19:08
troy_s
Yes exactly.
19:08
troy_s
We have to remember that the "bulk" of the image on transfer curves lives in a linear toe much like the 709 / sRGB encode
19:08
troy_s
So that is 'untouched'
19:08
troy_s
so perhaps a shallow curve up to a designated highlight range
19:09
troy_s
and then a much sharper one
19:09
troy_s
(that highlight transfer is huge obviously to retain some details in the head range and not have your image end up looking like poop)
19:09
troy_s
They also have spent some pretty good attention on the colorimetry on the high end as you can tell immediately by watching how Arri's cameras blow out to non-data
19:10
troy_s
They _never_ do the patented "rat piss" on skintone
19:10
troy_s
Like Canon default-matrix styled conversions do.
19:10
Bertl
not even with custom LUTs? :)
19:10
troy_s
You could do a custom on a Canon, but I'm speaking defaults
19:10
troy_s
Nikon's are at least as bad.
19:11
Bertl
nah, I'm talking about the custom-rat-piss LUT for the Arri :)
19:11
troy_s
Oh no rat piss on Arri
19:11
Bertl
so a missing feature then ....
19:12
troy_s
Rat Pissâ¢
19:12
Bertl
consider somebody who has been filming for years with a canon
19:12
troy_s
Arri again does pretty damn amazing imaging engineering
19:12
troy_s
Where everyone else seems obsessed with marketing.
19:12
troy_s
Canon has very, very little penetration in terms of shooting.
19:12
Bertl
I don't think we are obsessed with marketing
19:12
troy_s
I believe (well I know) Transparent uses the C series
19:13
troy_s
But most uses of the Canon stills cameras and their "Cinema" is relegated to EPK crews.
19:13
troy_s
(Which they tend to be quite popular)
19:13
troy_s
Sony's handhelds and the Canon's pretty much dominate the EPK side of shooting.
19:13
Bertl
EPK = Electronic Press Kit?
19:13
troy_s
Yes.
19:13
troy_s
The behind the scenes folks.
19:14
Bertl
i.c.
19:14
troy_s
Anyways, that 14 stops is why I'm keen to see the PWLC up and moving.
19:15
troy_s
It would take some twiddling to find the sweet spot for the linear response
19:15
troy_s
(where logically we'd map the middle grey for a given EI to 0.18, plus the offset)
19:15
Bertl
irieger still has the camera, IIRC, so maybe you can ask him nicely to test that :)
19:15
troy_s
Yes. I know he was talking about finding time to futz with it.
19:16
troy_s
Linear toe to the 0.18 range, PWLC 1 to A, then PWLC 2 to B.
19:16
troy_s
Where the toe probably covers 7 stops down from 0.18
19:16
troy_s
(at base EI)
19:17
troy_s
(or 6 if the estimated latitude is 12 overall)
19:17
intracube
hi Bertl, troy_s
19:17
Bertl
hey intracube!
19:18
troy_s
intracube: Greets intracube. Hope your first phase holidays went well if you do that sort of thing.
19:19
intracube
troy_s: ate too much and hardly moved :)
19:20
Bertl
don't start now, you might brek something :)
19:20
Bertl
*break
19:22
intracube
got to start moving around a bit. my waistline is still salvageable
19:22
intracube
wondered if there are any DNG files from the slap slow-mo sequence in the most recent team talk
19:23
Bertl
I'm sure there are, se6astian?
19:24
troy_s
intracube: Fsck you and your DNG.
19:24
troy_s
They are on the site. Not DNG last I looked. Raw dumps. (YAY)
19:24
intracube
troy_s: ooh, where?
19:24
troy_s
EVEN BETTER TIFs! http://files.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/snapshots/BetaRecTest/
19:25
intracube
me only saw download sequence of the confetti
19:25
troy_s
Not sure what those are.
19:25
troy_s
I think there was another raw dump somewhere.
19:25
intracube
yep, already had a quick look there :)
19:25
troy_s
seq12 has some in the root, not sure what that seq is.
19:25
intracube
ah, maybe this: http://files.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/snapshots/BetaRawTests/Maxime_Slap/
19:25
troy_s
This has some seqs http://files.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/snapshots/BetaRawTests/
19:25
troy_s
There you go.
19:25
Bertl
those are a sequence of raw12 files
19:25
troy_s
;)
19:26
troy_s
ApertusRaw.
19:26
Bertl
i.e. seq12 = N*raw12
19:26
Bertl
yes, the unmodified sensor data dump
19:26
intracube
also the DNGs :P
19:27
intracube
was curious just how over-exposed that particular shot was
19:27
Bertl
yay!
19:28
troy_s
Yes; Always need a junk and useless format.
19:28
troy_s
Was it overexposed?
19:28
intracube
is too lazy to deal with the raw images too night
19:28
troy_s
intracube: It's one damn imagemagick command you fool.
19:28
intracube
it is??
19:28
troy_s
IT IS
19:28
intracube
:)
19:28
troy_s
And you don't get a ridiculous 4x too big file for those sorts of simple quickie looks.
19:29
Bertl
we should definitely add some PNGs :)
19:30
troy_s
It's BertlMagicâ¢
19:30
troy_s
Yes. PNGs and DNGs! MUST MUSTMUST
19:30
troy_s
intracube: Hold... I'll grab you the BertlMagickâ¢
19:30
Bertl
TIFFs are so old fashioned
19:31
intracube
troy_s: thanks
19:31
troy_s
Lulz.
19:31
troy_s
convert \( -size 4096x3072 -depth 12 gray:colorchart_HTC_gainx2_15ms_01.raw12 \) \( -clone 0 -crop -1-1 \) \( -clone 0 -crop -1+0 \) \( -clone 0 -crop +0-1 \) -sample 2048x1536 \( -clone 2,3 -average \) -delete 2,3 -swap 0,1 +swap -combine hutch-debayer.tif
19:31
troy_s
intracube: You can turn that into a bash script pretty easily
19:32
intracube
troy_s: Bertl: nice, thanks
19:32
Bertl
just add #!/bin/bash
19:32
troy_s
No automangling
19:32
intracube
yep
19:32
troy_s
plus the $1 isn't it?
19:32
intracube
if you pass the image in at the command line, yep
19:32
troy_s
Or whatever bash-fu you need to make sure it doesn't spasm with a space in a filename etc.
19:33
troy_s
The good news is that you can be certain there isn't some SmartFsckingSoftware⢠mangling of your data values.
19:33
Bertl
yeah "$1" for example should do
19:33
troy_s
Just a raw dump to sRGB (or whatever your display of choice happens to be)
19:33
Bertl
you can actually pass the input and output from stdin/stdout
19:33
troy_s
intracube: You saw the stanzas I posted for the conversion matrices?
19:33
troy_s
Bertl: Redirect?
19:34
Bertl
like any good unix tool, so you can get rid of the name specific part
19:34
Bertl
gray:- and TIFF:- for example
19:34
intracube
troy_s: nope
19:34
troy_s
intracube: Grr. You are supposed to be paying attention to this crap.
19:35
troy_s
intracube: Let me see if I can find it. Like a buffoon I didn't start a git branch and instead edited the build installed config.
19:35
troy_s
intracube: Which of course gets overwritten.
19:35
intracube
has been trying. quite a lot of colour talk going on in here and blender coders channel the last few days :P
19:36
Bertl
well, it was a pleasure, but I've got some work to do ... bbl
19:36
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
19:36
parasew
joined the channel
19:37
parasew
are the 3d print files for the beta online somewhere? for the enclosure?
19:39
troy_s
intracube: Here's one
19:39
troy_s
http://www.pasteall.org/62722
19:39
troy_s
intracube: Can't remember if that leveraged a synthetic white to scale the exposure correctly.
19:40
troy_s
(The description may not be up to date as I am often sloppy with the description when I am flailing with a transform)
19:43
intracube
troy_s: thanks
19:44
intracube
has got rusty
19:44
para5ew
joined the channel
19:44
intracube
I just need to insert into datafiles/colormanagement/config.ocio
19:44
troy_s
That'll do.
19:44
intracube
then load the tif output from the imagemagick
19:44
troy_s
alexML had a newer stanza that worked well, including a shaper pass LUT.
19:44
intracube
cool
19:45
troy_s
intracube: Yes, hence why I'll always call junk junk junk junk junk on DNG until some other people help chant with me.
19:45
troy_s
intracube: It's a junk format.
19:45
parasew
is this the latest case of the beta? (that would fit the current model) https://lab.apertus.org/T401
19:48
para5ew
left the channel
19:56
troy_s
intracube: Winning?
19:56
parasew
left the channel
19:57
se6astian
what do you mean with "latest case of the beta" ?
19:57
se6astian
there is no final design yet
19:58
se6astian
check https://apertus.org/axiom-beta-roadmap
19:58
se6astian
for enclosure
20:02
intracube
troy_s: I'll have a look in a bit :)
20:12
wakalixes
joined the channel
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getzi
left the channel
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parasew
joined the channel
20:22
wakalixes
left the channel
20:33
troy_s
se6astian: Is it just me or does Phabricator not post notifications?
20:33
troy_s
(via email)
20:37
getzi
joined the channel
20:38
parasew
se6astian: i mean the simple enclosure. there are people who can and want to work on it!
20:38
se6astian
troy_s: you are right I also did not get any notifications recently - will check
20:39
se6astian
parasew: great
20:39
se6astian
all files are on github
20:39
se6astian
emailing you now
20:39
troy_s
se6astian: I haven't gotten any since the beginning.
20:39
troy_s
se6astian: So I'm not sure. Checked my settings, checked everything. All looks good but since the dawn of Apertus' Phab, I haven't received one.
20:39
se6astian
well then you probably never enabled notifications :)
20:41
troy_s
trust me
20:41
troy_s
I've checked sixteen dozen times
20:41
troy_s
Willing to admit I am a bonehead
20:41
troy_s
But also reasonably sure I have set everything at my end.
20:41
troy_s
Also, I note that in the little alarm icon top left, when I select "mark as read" it doesn't clear the list.
20:42
troy_s
se6astian: I'll take tips however.
20:43
getzi
left the channel
20:45
se6astian
I just got a phabricator notification of your change
20:46
se6astian
your subscription to T133
20:52
troy_s
se6astian: Do me a favor and update it for me to see if I can get a notification now?
20:52
troy_s
se6astian: I've set and reset my email settings dozens of times, flagged the notifications, etc.
20:52
troy_s
nothing.
20:53
se6astian
commented for update
20:53
troy_s
thanks.
20:53
troy_s
(se6astian are there Phabricator IRC bots?)
20:53
parasew
left the channel
20:54
troy_s
Nothing. Dammit.
20:54
pozitron
left the channel
20:55
se6astian
yes there is a bot, but we turned it off after some time, was too annoying :)
20:56
se6astian
what do these settings say: https://lab.apertus.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/
20:57
se6astian
it should list if you receive an email or a phabricator internal notification for every kind of possible event
20:59
troy_s
se6astian: Yep.
20:59
troy_s
se6astian: All set accordingly minus my own actions, which I changed today and still haven't received a single email.
20:59
troy_s
Not in spam either.
20:59
troy_s
Something is amiss.
21:00
troy_s
I suspect due to the fact that I joined during the Precambrian era that perhaps the pipes were not working.
21:01
se6astian
I ll ask someone to test creating a new account and checking if the problem also appears there
21:03
troy_s
Not sure.
21:03
troy_s
I just wish I could get notifications.
21:07
troy_s
se6astian: HA. Got them now.
21:08
troy_s
Oh I lied. That's just an email.
21:08
troy_s
WTF.
21:08
se6astian
great, I had max create a new account and he also got notifiactions
21:08
troy_s
I got your email to Gabe
21:08
troy_s
That is it.
21:09
se6astian
oh, thats not from the lab :)
21:09
troy_s
Something is screwed. Maybe I nuke my account.
21:09
troy_s
Can someone nuke my account?
21:09
se6astian
create a new one?
21:09
troy_s
I'll re-add and re-link perhaps?
21:09
troy_s
Can I relink to my existing handle? Something is screwed.
21:10
se6astian
not sure if we can relink the accounts...
21:10
se6astian
never tried
21:13
pozitrono
joined the channel
21:18
troy_s
se6astian: Also, the idea of using that Nikon photo is just plain stupid. Godawful idea. I hope you aren't using any of those values in the defaults.
21:18
troy_s
It's just a junk amateur hour approach that is worse than awful.
21:18
troy_s
Use a proper tool. It isn't that complex.
21:18
troy_s
It is enough that if I were to discover that as an outside audience member that I'd skip out and write off the whole project as amateur hour.
21:37
wakalixes
joined the channel
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wakalixes
left the channel
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wakalixes
joined the channel
21:50
wakalixes
left the channel
21:59
se6astian
troy the extremist :)
22:00
se6astian
time for going extremely to bed!
22:00
se6astian
for me at least
22:00
se6astian
good night :P
22:00
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
23:01
wakalixes
joined the channel
23:05
wakalixes
left the channel
23:05
wakalixes
joined the channel
23:09
wakalixes
left the channel
23:20
troy_s
Well hell. No matter what I do I can't get email sent to me. I've added two more emails, different providers, no email comes from Phabricator.
23:23
troy_s
If anyone can help out a donkey here, I'd lovely appreciate it.
23:41
Bertl_oO
philippej is maintaining phabricator, so it's probably best to contact him with problems
23:41
Bertl_oO
(you can also create a task for it and assign it to him)