23:12 | gcolburn | okay, got the register data into the DNG and photoshop seems to not choke
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23:13 | gcolburn | I'll write the DNGtoRaw16 next and make sure the files are identical with diff
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23:21 | Bertl | excellent! thanks!
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23:30 | gcolburn | works!
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23:31 | gcolburn | I'll upload the code to github
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23:34 | gcolburn | I'm going to be heading out pretty soon here. If you get a chance to test the code let me know if it's working for you
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23:34 | gcolburn | you can use DNGtoCMV12000.py to do the conversion
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23:35 | gcolburn | just edit the name of the input DNG and output rawFile. I'll make it more user friendly with command line arguments later (probably tomorrow)
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23:38 | Bertl | great! thanks will test and report back!
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23:38 | gcolburn | sounds good!
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23:38 | gcolburn | talk to you later
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05:15 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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11:20 | Bertl | morning everyone!
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16:17 | se6astian | good evening
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16:19 | se6astian | hot today: chinese interest in the Axiom Alpha prototype: http://www.filmaker.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=42322
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19:19 | gcolburn | hello
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19:23 | Celia | changed nick to: FergusL
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19:26 | se6astian | hi Gabe
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19:28 | troy_s | gcolburn: Did you peek at OIIO?
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19:28 | troy_s | gcolburn: If you have DNG working, worth porting to it.
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19:29 | gcolburn | hi sebastian. working on fixing some of those issues now
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19:29 | gcolburn | What were you seeing with the forward matrix? just that it's there?
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19:29 | se6astian | great thanks
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19:29 | se6astian | yes
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19:29 | se6astian | I have no idea what it is tbh
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19:29 | gcolburn | whenever I removed it before photoshop couldn't read the file
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19:30 | gcolburn | "This tag defines a matrix that maps white balanced camera colors to XYZ D50 colors."
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19:30 | gcolburn | from the spe
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19:30 | gcolburn | c
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19:30 | se6astian | can you set it to all "0" ?
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19:31 | se6astian | or all 1
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19:31 | troy_s | gcolburn: http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/cinemadng/pdfs/CinemaDNG_Format_Specification_v1_1.pdf
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19:31 | gcolburn | identity matrix might work. I'm not sure exactly what equations the raw converter uses
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19:31 | troy_s | se6astian: Not useful.
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19:32 | troy_s | gcolburn: It is just the calibration matrix
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19:32 | troy_s | gcolburn: Subject to a Bradford for D50
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19:32 | troy_s | gcolburn: Rather PROFILE matrix. Erf.
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19:33 | troy_s | Idea being the RGB Bayer to XYZ, then Bradford transformed to a D50.
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19:33 | gcolburn | so there is overlap between tiff tags and "exif" tags. exif prefers them to be in the subIFD with the image, not IFD0. DNG allows either
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19:34 | gcolburn | I could try moving some tags to the subIFD and see if the exif reader works
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19:36 | troy_s | 1.4 spec http://www.adobe.com/ca/products/photoshop/extend.displayTab2.html#resources
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19:37 | gcolburn | there is also an embedded Adobe profile in the DNG that when I remove photoshop would choke on
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19:37 | gcolburn | but if you make the calibration signatures differ it is supposed to ignore it
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19:37 | troy_s | se6astian: What is giving you issues?
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19:38 | gcolburn | hmm… I clicked that link before and got the old one for some reason. looks like that does have the new one. thanks
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19:41 | troy_s | How does one interpolate between two matrices?
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19:41 | troy_s | gcolburn: ?
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19:42 | troy_s | gcolburn: As I understand it there can be two matrices and it is suggested a low color temp and high (Standard A and D55-D65)
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19:42 | gcolburn | yeah
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19:43 | troy_s | gcolburn: I can't imagine they suggest LERPing between them? That is Wrong Von Kries? (Aka XYZ scaling?)
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19:43 | se6astian | troy_s: no issues, I just noticed some "leftover tags" in the DNG from the conversion process and wanted to make sure we have nothing unintentionally influencing our own efforts of creating a camera profile
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19:44 | troy_s | se6astian: The profile will be based off of RGB TIFFs methinks.
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19:44 | troy_s | se6astian: Pretty sure the DNG “canonized” tags won't impact the profiling attempts.
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19:46 | gcolburn | yeah, as long as the raw converter used doesn't use the tags
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19:46 | troy_s | gcolburn: The three general approaches for white balance shifting, in increasing order of psychophysical accuracy:
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19:46 | gcolburn | the dcraw command I've been using *should* be ignoring all tags in the DNG
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19:47 | troy_s | 1) Wrong Von Kries (aka XYZ scaling)
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19:47 | troy_s | 2) Von Kries
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19:47 | troy_s | 3) Bradford
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19:47 | troy_s | Bradford is largely accepted as the most accurate approach as it is a matrix transform that takes the XYZ and loosely converts the data to LMS (rod / cone) response.
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19:48 | gcolburn | okay
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19:48 | gcolburn | I haven't read about the different approaches in the DNG spec. so not sure how that is handled. it might just be up to the raw converter
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19:49 | troy_s | gcolburn: Reading the spec it says to LERP between the two matrices
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19:50 | troy_s | gcolburn: How does one LERP between two 3x3 matrices?
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19:50 | troy_s | (for the record http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_color_space#XYZ_to_LMS)
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19:51 | gcolburn | pushed fixes for the UniqueCameraModel and the 4 zero bytes to github
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19:51 | troy_s | And of course Lindbloom's http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Eqn_ChromAdapt.html reference.
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19:52 | gcolburn | Sebastian: can you try the updates and see if the exif tool is happy? if not then we probably have to move tags to the subIFD
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19:54 | se6astian | maybe it wont influence the profiling itself but maybe the interpretation of the calibrated DNG then afterwards
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19:54 | se6astian | will try now, thanks
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19:54 | troy_s | gcolburn: Check out the ICO plugin in OIIO. About as easy I think for sample of the input / output format.
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19:55 | troy_s | https://github.com/OpenImageIO/oiio/tree/master/src/ico.imageio
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19:59 | se6astian | gcolburn, did you update the empty.dng as well or only the python scripts?
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19:59 | se6astian | aka do I need to run a dng through the scripts again to test?
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19:59 | gcolburn | yeah, that would be a good starting point to add support into OIIO. Didn't you say there is an initial patch for DNG support?
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19:59 | gcolburn | sebastian: yes, run a raw file through again and test on the new DNG
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20:00 | se6astian | ok
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20:01 | troy_s | gcolburn: You could likely knock out an OIIO importer / exporter in no time given your DNG experience.
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20:01 | se6astian | looks good
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20:01 | se6astian | the tags themselves
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20:01 | troy_s | gcolburn: And willing to bet Mr. Gritz would take the pull request.
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20:01 | se6astian | exif tool still cant change the tags though
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20:01 | se6astian | Error: [minor] DNG Version 1.4.0.0 not yet supported - img.dng
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20:01 | se6astian | 0 image files updated
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20:01 | se6astian | 1 files weren't updated due to errors
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20:02 | troy_s | gcolburn: It will make all of the code much cleaner. And much easier to iterate on the programs.
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20:02 | troy_s | gcolburn: Better still, it is probably easier for OCIO inclusion, which is going to be mandatory at some point.
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20:02 | gcolburn | so the exif tool doesn't support 1.4?
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20:03 | gcolburn | right now our DNGs have 1.4 encoded in them.
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20:04 | se6astian | seems so yes
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20:04 | troy_s | Junk.
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20:04 | troy_s | What EXIF tool is this?
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20:04 | troy_s | 1.4 is from 2012.
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20:05 | troy_s | And why are we obsessing with a stills based EXIF data set?
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20:06 | troy_s | Great bonus sure, but god help us if people are trying to grade in a stills based EXIF system.
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20:06 | gcolburn | how much is Cinema DNG being used? Cinema DNG can be as simple as a sequence of DNG files with optional frame rate tags, etc.
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20:07 | gcolburn | so if they're reading EXIF tags for anything that may be a consideration
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20:07 | gcolburn | since I don't work in cinema I wasn't sure how widely that format is used right now
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20:07 | se6astian | troy_s, http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/
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20:08 | se6astian | cinema dng is the only open standard raw format
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20:09 | troy_s | se6astian: Still EXIF is not quite motion specific.
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20:10 | troy_s | gcolburn: DNG had (has?) zero penetration in industry grade cameras. Only the BMCC has put it on the map regarding prosumer motion cameras.
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20:10 | troy_s | gcolburn: And IIRC Pentax was the only vendor using it as an option in stills bodies.
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20:10 | se6astian | no, but the exif tags influence the color interpretation of the DNG
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20:10 | troy_s | se6astian: The DNG tags do.
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20:11 | troy_s | se6astian: In a DNG viewer.
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20:11 | troy_s | se6astian: In my experience, EXIF has no bearing on color transforms in just about every stills application I have seen. Many mangle.
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20:12 | troy_s | (and that isn't to suggest a viewer that loads DNG _will_ mangle, but just that I would test first and trust second)
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20:18 | troy_s | gcolburn: Do you see there is a command line format specification?
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20:18 | troy_s | gcolburn: I wonder if that should be glanced at.
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20:18 | troy_s | gcolburn: Seems relevant to OIIO integration and the work you are doing here.
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20:19 | gcolburn | command line for OIIO?
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20:23 | troy_s | gcolburn: yes.
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20:23 | troy_s | gcolburn: It comes with a few tools. Many OIIO tools are based off the CLI.
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20:24 | troy_s | Silly reference for their CLI tool.
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20:24 | troy_s | Erf.
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20:35 | gcolburn | does sebastian or herbert have the camera now?
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20:37 | troy_s | se6astian Bertl ^^
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20:38 | troy_s | se6astian: I would encourage you to get an idealized shot done of that chart under Illuminant A (aka Tungsten ideal)
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20:38 | troy_s | se6astian: As well as (if possible) direct sun (no glare) in an enclosed area (to kill sky blue)
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20:38 | troy_s | se6astian: Because right now we have NO clue if the sensor can even reach sRGB / 709 primaries.
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20:39 | troy_s | se6astian: And that's _kind of_ important. ;)
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20:39 | troy_s | se6astian: Until we have those charts (again, captured 1) at middle grey exposure 2) 0.5 stop hot, 3) 1.0 stop hot and (ideally) 4) 1.5 stops hot) as well as evenly lit.
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20:39 | troy_s | se6astian: We have no idea of the profile and that means no idea of the gamut.
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21:17 | se6astian | I have the full grade sensor, herbert has the defect one
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21:18 | se6astian | I will conduct new chart shooting when the new firmware is complete
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21:43 | gcolburn | ok great. thanks!
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21:43 | gcolburn | will the new firmware have additional LUT support?
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21:43 | gcolburn | I could write some basic C code for the matrix LUT to Herbert and let him incorporate it in whatever way makes sense.
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21:56 | troy_s | gcolburn: *COUGH* OCIO
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21:57 | troy_s | gcolburn: Might as well just bite the bullet there. Dead simple to do forward and backwards matrix romps etc.
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22:26 | se6astian | time for bed! good night!
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22:29 | gcolburn | good night!
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