01:25 | Bertl | back now ...
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02:35 | FergusL | wb Bertl !
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07:54 | se6astian | good morning
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07:54 | Sasha_C | Good morning Se6astian
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07:54 | Sasha_C | Did you receive my email response?
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07:55 | Sasha_C | (re: the IRC archive)
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08:00 | se6astian | just arrived in my office, yes
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08:01 | Sasha_C | Sorry about the mix-up
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08:04 | se6astian | our archives date back to November 2013
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08:04 | se6astian | now is november
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08:04 | Sasha_C | I know, but I'm thinking about what this will look like when people come to read it a month or so from now
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08:05 | se6astian | our archive starts in June 2013
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08:05 | Sasha_C | Well, when exactly in November do the logs begin? Early, mid, late?
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08:05 | se6astian | http://irc.apertus.org/
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08:05 | Sasha_C | Really?
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08:05 | Sasha_C | Ok, I'll change it then
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08:05 | Sasha_C | I only assumed that IRC was only being logged after Herbert activated aPinky?
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08:06 | Sasha_C | And I see you've updated the article...
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08:06 | se6astian | look at http://irc.apertus.org/
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08:07 | Bertl | news about the irclog? :)
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08:07 | se6astian | yes, the article is about the be released: https://www.apertus.org/irc-archives-available-article
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08:07 | Sasha_C | Yep
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08:07 | se6astian | *to be
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08:08 | Bertl | November 2014 is even better than November 2013 :)
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08:09 | Sasha_C | Yeah, that was my mistake, editing text at 1am :(
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08:09 | Bertl | to err is human, no problem ...
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08:17 | se6astian | Sasha_C, did you take a look at my changes now?
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08:17 | Sasha_C | Yep, looks good
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08:23 | se6astian | great, thanks
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08:23 | se6astian | then I will release now
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08:25 | se6astian | is it strange to say "IRC Chat"?
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08:25 | Bertl | yes
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08:25 | se6astian | as that actually means Chat Chat :)
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08:25 | Sasha_C | agreed
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08:25 | se6astian | but we cant say IR Chat
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08:26 | se6astian | that nobody will recognize
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08:26 | Bertl | let's say Internet Relay Chat (IRC)
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08:26 | Bertl | this way folks also learn the acronym
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08:27 | Sasha_C | great. I was going to suggest 'IRC room/channel', but Bertl's suggestion steals the prize
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08:27 | se6astian | fixed
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08:28 | se6astian | posted
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08:28 | se6astian | btw our last prototype update is almost a month old
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08:28 | se6astian | is there anything new we can report?
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08:29 | se6astian | pictures of the second unit being assembled?
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08:29 | se6astian | the black lens mount looks very stylish for example IMO
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08:30 | Sasha_C | Yes, people will definitely want to see that
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08:34 | Bertl | I did take a few pictures of the new unit, but it looks almost like the old one, so nothing really new there
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08:34 | Bertl | but the black lens mount with the silver bayonet ring looks sexy :)
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08:38 | se6astian | what else can we report?
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08:38 | Bertl | a lot of software news
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08:38 | Bertl | hdmi out from memory for example
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08:39 | Bertl | full throughput reader/writer test (now working :)
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08:39 | Bertl | the first IT8 chart?
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08:40 | Bertl | http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/IT8_incand.fix.png
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08:42 | Bertl | http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/almost2.png (this is from the hdmi out tests)
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08:42 | Bertl | http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/almost.png (one bug earlier :)
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08:44 | Bertl | http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/buggyglass.png (two bugs earlier :)
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08:45 | Sasha_C | This is great stuff. We should combine a couple of these pictures with an image or two of the camera and black lens mount (suggested by Se6astian above)
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08:46 | Bertl | yeah, maybe make it on the hardware side/ on the software side
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08:47 | Sasha_C | is "almost2.png" an example of the latest progress you've made with debugging the software?
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08:47 | Bertl | would have been material for two news entries, but I guess it is kind of moot to have two news entries at the same day (all happened over the last week or so)
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08:47 | Bertl | actually we fixed it completely, so it's working now
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08:48 | Bertl | but that was the last iteration before the final issue was fixed
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08:48 | Sasha_C | Fantastic! And raw capture and debayering progress?
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08:49 | Bertl | debayering is not an issue atm, we do that either in post processing or not at all (for the HDMI out)
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08:49 | Bertl | raw capture is working fine for some time now, what we have to do is combine both, clean up the code and optimize the design
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08:50 | Sasha_C | Well, let's report this then! People will find it great to read / hear
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08:51 | Bertl | take your time to prepare something, I'll be off to bed shortly
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08:51 | Sasha_C | Will do, and have a good one :)
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08:51 | Bertl | but I can read/check anything in the evening
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08:52 | Bertl | (i.e. when I get up again :)
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08:52 | Bertl | welcome yahel!
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08:55 | yahel | Hi Bertl
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08:58 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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08:58 | Sasha_C | Take care man
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09:09 | se6astian | night Bertl
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09:10 | se6astian | sasha do you have time to draft an article together?
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09:10 | se6astian | I will be away over the weekend
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09:10 | Sasha_C | I'll get started on it tonight and present a draft early next week
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09:10 | se6astian | great, thanks!
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13:42 | FergusL | hello here
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15:46 | Bertl | morning everyone!
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15:47 | FergusL | 'ning Bertl
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15:48 | se6astian | morning :)
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15:52 | se6astian | before I turn off the lights here at the office
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15:52 | se6astian | quick and dirty rendering of what we discussed yesterday
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15:52 | se6astian | https://cloud.gerade.org/public.php?service=files&t=88644302ffde4f6e5659627a3c8bbf32&path=/Axiom/open-modules-concept-inside01.jpg
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15:53 | FergusL | that was also discussed on the mailing list, right ?
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15:53 | Bertl | se6astian: yeah, but I'd go one step further and drop the module interconnects as well
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15:54 | se6astian | FergusL, not yet
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15:54 | FergusL | just because of the hassle it represents ?
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15:54 | FergusL | Bertl ^
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15:54 | se6astian | Bertl, how do you mean?
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15:54 | FergusL | and just go with external cables ? like power straight from battery/power block to frontend ?
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15:55 | Bertl | what if we can simply replace the backplane when changing the number of modules?
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15:55 | Bertl | (or extend it to some degree)
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15:56 | Bertl | judging from the feedback here on the channel, the number of used modules will not change very often
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15:56 | se6astian | that would mean every time you add/remove a module you would have to completely disassemble the entire camera, even the PCB with the sensor
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15:56 | Bertl | maybe, but not necessarily
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15:57 | Bertl | the backplane could use 90° sockets and a similar approach to extend between modules
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15:57 | FergusL | I agree with Bertl that setup wouldn't change that often
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15:58 | FergusL | except maybe for hypothetical sound and remote control modules which is the most subject to changes depending on the type of project the camera is used on
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15:59 | Bertl | so, if the change can be done 'easily' I don't think it's a big deal for anybody to disassemble the whole thing (when you change the first 3-4 modules)
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15:59 | Bertl | for addon/low bandwidth modules we might simply switch to header connectors
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16:02 | Bertl | have to grab some groceries, bbl
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16:08 | se6astian | lets continue this discussion soon
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16:08 | se6astian | gotta go
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17:58 | Bertl | back now ...
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18:03 | Bertl | wb VBenjFR!
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18:05 | VBenjFR | Good evening!
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18:30 | se6astian | back
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18:30 | Bertl | wb
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18:31 | se6astian | I want to evaluate what the team thinks about the requirements of "how easy" the modules should be to assemble/disassemble
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18:31 | se6astian | http://strawpoll.me/ is a nice way to gather simple opinions
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18:32 | se6astian | I am just struggling to formulate the questions in a way that contains enough information but does not give any bias towards a particular answer
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18:33 | Bertl | how about a questionaire? with questions like: how often do you plan to remove a module?
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18:33 | Bertl | how often do you expect to add a new module?
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18:34 | Bertl | how long can it take to assemble 5 modules?
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18:34 | Bertl | and have some choices there like
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18:35 | se6astian | for me those questions are not clear, because in a system where chaning modules just takes a few seconds I would do it everyday before I start shooting, but if its more complicated I would leave those I use most of the time installed
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18:35 | Bertl | every hour, every day, twice a week, every fortnight, asoasf
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18:36 | Bertl | fair enough, question: why would you do it every day?
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18:36 | Bertl | i.e. what would you change on a daily basis?
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18:37 | se6astian | the project requirements, for example I know I will shoot with an external audio guy one day and therefore reqire the meta module to give out a genlock signal
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18:38 | se6astian | on the next day I will record audio on the camera but dont need the meta module
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18:38 | se6astian | or was it the "time" module with genlock...
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18:38 | Bertl | but the question is, why would you want to remove it in this case?
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18:39 | Bertl | for sure, I do not need all the apps on my smart phone, doesn't mean I will uninstall them evey day, despite the fact that it only takes a few seconds :)
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18:43 | Bertl | IMHO it will be similar to the normal way folks go about camera setups, i.e. have a number of components, assemble them, balance the entire thing and that's it, if requirements change, like for example the output or storage type, then the camera will be modified/adapted, but otherwise it will remain untouched
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18:44 | Bertl | the only thing which will be permanently changed is the battery :)
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18:44 | Bertl | (and if we find a smart way to avoid that, like remote inductive charging, even that will be avoided I guess ...
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18:44 | Bertl | )
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18:45 | se6astian | some motivation might be weight and size: when you shoot on a crane, sidemounted to a car, helicopter, underwater you will want to have a camera as small and lightweight as possible
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18:45 | se6astian | but those shots might be just in the middle of a normal shooting day
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18:46 | Bertl | yes, but this will require special handling anyway
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18:46 | Bertl | so it won't matter if it takes 30 seconds or 5 minutes
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18:46 | se6astian | currently yes, because there is no camera that could do it all without being modified
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18:47 | Bertl | for example, we could do the double side backplane concept, but stop with one backplane after the main processing module
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18:47 | se6astian | agreed, but a major factor is if it can be done without a workbench, esd protection, certain screwdrivers and other equipment without risking damage to the camera due to moisture, dust
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18:48 | Bertl | that would allow the modules to be added/removed from the side, assuming that the module body stays the same
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18:49 | Bertl | so for example, the 'main' body could already provide space for 3-4 'modules'
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18:49 | Bertl | where you can, like with PCI cards, plug in your favorite module
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18:49 | Bertl | or remove it, if it needs to be changed or adapted, or whatever
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18:50 | Bertl | very similar to PCs, you will not change it very often, once you've found your favorite combination
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18:50 | se6astian | interesting ide
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18:50 | se6astian | a
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18:50 | Bertl | still provides an upgrade path, an open interface and all the flexibility you get if you really need to
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18:51 | se6astian | most modules that you want to swap will be low bandwidth anyway (audio, tiemcode, etc.)
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18:51 | Bertl | precisely
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18:51 | Bertl | also allows for the I/O part to be modular
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18:52 | Bertl | i.e. easily switch between 4x SDI out or SATA out or whatever
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18:52 | se6astian | but we would need at least 1-2 modules with double backplane for storage/raw/whatever else
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18:52 | Bertl | we might/should get away with single side for the high speed serial tranceivers
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18:52 | se6astian | or would the one sided interfaces be enough if we use high speed serial interfaces for sata anyway
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18:53 | Bertl | that's the idea, might require higher quality slots though
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18:53 | se6astian | with gold plating etc.?
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18:54 | Bertl | more importantly with proper impedance and shielding
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18:54 | Bertl | but e.g. PCIe slots should be more than fine
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18:54 | Bertl | (or the laptop equivalents if size is an issue)
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18:55 | se6astian | are pcie slots better in terms of impedance and shielding than SODIMM slots?
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18:56 | Bertl | probably because they are designed for higher frequencies
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18:56 | Bertl | I'd suggest the longer backplane to do near and far connects
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18:56 | se6astian | they also have lower pin counts
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18:57 | Bertl | like this:
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18:57 | Bertl | ---------, ,-----, ,------
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18:57 | Bertl | ---------+-------+--------
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18:57 | se6astian | then I would suggest to not do the backplane on the sides as that would block the space to add connectors but rather at top/bottom (as in my concept image)
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18:58 | Bertl | fine as well, but requires to open the top (if it is on the bottom) and even more problematic to open the bottom if it is on the top
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18:59 | Bertl | OTOH, I don't see a problem with connectors if one of the backplanes is shorter, i.e. they will be on the same side as the short backplane
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18:59 | se6astian | you would need custom enclosures per module anyway as each module has different connectors (right side) and button(left side)
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19:00 | se6astian | true, but inside the head where we still have two backplanes there could not be any connectors to the sides
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19:00 | Bertl | and there won't be any connectors on the baseboard/sensor frontend
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19:00 | Bertl | no need for the second backplane there I guess
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19:01 | Bertl | we already have high speed serial out from the baseboard
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19:01 | se6astian | unless there is a dedicated 3rd pcb for the head that has the connectors and just uses a single backplane side
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19:01 | Bertl | so any I/O or storage module will use that
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19:01 | Bertl | that's the idea
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19:01 | Bertl | so double side only applies to the sensor frontend, and the baseboard module(s)
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19:02 | se6astian | sounds like a plan
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19:02 | se6astian | but what if a module would have buttons on the left side and connectors on the right side?
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19:03 | Bertl | then that would have to be a wireless module :)
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19:04 | Bertl | from what I've gathered, buttons on the left side do not make much sense anyway
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19:05 | Bertl | professionals do not want that, because the CA is on the other side, and I'm not convinced that the indie folks will love buttons on their right ear or so :)
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19:06 | Bertl | (same goes for connectors :)
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19:06 | Bertl | but it is just an idea, and if we do the backplane at the bottom, you can have ear buttons and even BNC connectors which will hurt a lot :)
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19:08 | Bertl | so, SPI cable finished as well, which means that I will visit the lab this WE
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19:08 | Bertl | (to finally get the shoebox done :)
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19:17 | VBenjFR | You explain that you will make a module with buttons on the left side and connectors on the right side [20:02:50], and would like to open by top and bottom [19:58:2]. Wouldn't That be problematic, if you want install it on a rail?
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19:18 | se6astian | CA on other side agreed but if there is no CA the DOP requires controls on the left side
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19:19 | se6astian | so it might be best to have the dictator or whatever way is used to control the camera deal with all module controls as well
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19:20 | se6astian | second prototype ready <- hurray!
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19:20 | VBenjFR | greetings!
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19:20 | se6astian | Hi Benjamin!
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19:21 | Bertl | I don't see a problem with an external device controlling all the camera modules
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19:21 | VBenjFR | Hi Se6astian
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19:21 | se6astian | I made this concept earlier today: https://cloud.gerade.org/public.php?service=files&t=88644302ffde4f6e5659627a3c8bbf32&path=/Axiom/open-modules-concept-inside01.jpg
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19:21 | Bertl | we need to have some communication anyway, and I guess all will be available via ethernet or similar
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19:21 | se6astian | agreed
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19:22 | se6astian | ok gotta go afk for a bit now
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19:22 | Bertl | unless you add your proprietary interface module :)
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19:22 | se6astian | will adapt the backplane design to visualize the single/double backplane concept
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19:23 | se6astian | see you
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19:40 | VBenjFR | Good night
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23:23 | Bertl | wb intracube! welcome theverant!
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23:24 | theverant | hello, love the project
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23:24 | Bertl | glad to hear!
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23:26 | theverant | thought I'd pop in and see if there was any chatter. :D
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23:27 | Bertl | atm it is quiet, but you can use the pause to introduce yourself and how you found the project or what interests you most
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23:28 | theverant | I'm a tech at a small film dept in a fine arts university
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23:28 | theverant | we have a couple of Red cameras, etc
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23:28 | theverant | so I'm always scanning the horizon
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23:28 | theverant | in private life I pursue open source as much as possible
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23:28 | theverant | especially hardware
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23:29 | theverant | so an open source cinema camera is basically Nirvana for me :D
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23:29 | Bertl | yeah, sounds like quite a match
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23:30 | theverant | I'm not sure there's a lot I can do right now, but perhaps I might be some small help as things progress
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23:30 | Bertl | well, if you don't mind, I'd suggest you hang around here as often as possible, because we always need input and information
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23:30 | theverant | yeah, for sure, that's why I'm here :D
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23:30 | Bertl | for example, a few months ago, I had no idea whatsoever about cameras
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23:31 | theverant | I haunt #reprap and #arduino regularly, so I'll make this another stop.
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23:31 | theverant | so what kind of ideas do you have now? :D
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23:32 | Bertl | well, I finished the second prototype today (axiom alpha)
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23:33 | theverant | awesome! I did read on the first prototype and the image processing you were doing
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23:33 | Bertl | and I'm preparing the software so that we can actually make some movies with the thing
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23:33 | theverant | lovely
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23:34 | theverant | I have students if you need lackeys and want to send a prototype :D
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23:34 | Bertl | yeah, I guess we could send out 50 prototypes :)
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23:34 | Bertl | the problem is not that we do not want to, it is more the cost involved
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23:35 | theverant | of course, it's everyone's problem
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23:35 | Bertl | and for folks basically working for free a 1000 bucks or more are quite a lot
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23:35 | theverant | try running a film school on a severely limited budget :D
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23:35 | theverant | hmm
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23:35 | theverant | only $1k for a prototype?
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23:36 | Bertl | well, a little more actually, but the sensor was cheaper because we got a defective one (i.e. with known defects) for half the price
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23:37 | theverant | ah
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23:37 | theverant | I would be tempted to buy one for myself @ $1k
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23:38 | Bertl | you would have to build it yourself as well :)
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23:38 | Bertl | the PCB for example was ordered via OSHpark (you might know it)
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23:39 | Bertl | that made it quite cheap
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23:39 | theverant | Yeah I haven't ordered from them, but I know them
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23:39 | theverant | I have no problem building it
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23:39 | theverant | as long as I don't have to design the PCB :D
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23:39 | Bertl | well then, the PCB is already shared IIRC
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23:39 | Bertl | but I'd suggest you get the updated version
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23:40 | Bertl | you can then directly order it and assemble the frontend
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23:40 | Bertl | if you solder on the sensor directly, you can also safe about 60 bucks for the socket
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23:44 | theverant | hmm. Is this the sensor you are sticking with to the production version?
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23:44 | theverant | Do you have a price point target for the final camera?
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23:44 | theverant | you seem to have lifted a page from the Red design manual, as well, eh? :D
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23:45 | theverant | with the modules and backpack system
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23:45 | Bertl | you won't believe it, but we mostly arrived at the various design concepts by not looking at other designs
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23:46 | theverant | well, it wasn't meant as an insult, it is a logical form for the camera to take
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23:46 | Bertl | I suggested the modular concept when 'Red' was just a color for me
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23:46 | Bertl | yes, similar problems lead to similar solutions
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23:47 | theverant | I find their solutions to really lack ergonomics though
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23:47 | theverant | not unlike shooting with a brick
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23:47 | Bertl | and we think we are making the right decisions when I see that there is some overlap with existing designs
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23:48 | Bertl | for the price target, well, as cheap as possible without sacrificing quality
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23:48 | Bertl | the modular concept will allow for quite some price range, depending on what you need/want in your camera
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23:49 | theverant | I realize it is still early days to really talk about price
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23:49 | Bertl | the most expensive parts are the sensor and the FPGA
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23:49 | theverant | but it's usually the deciding factor :D
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23:50 | Bertl | sure, but while I'm certain that we cannot match price dumping as done by some companies, we can definitely match quality and offer the additional bonus of being open
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23:51 | theverant | yeah that will certainly count
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23:51 | theverant | I think what really caused Red to rise so fast was the community they built around their product
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23:51 | theverant | as well as having groundbreaking tech
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23:52 | theverant | but sharing ideas early on, as you guys are doing
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23:52 | theverant | it seems to be something the grand old companies don't understand
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23:54 | Bertl | people gave up a lot of freedom already for vague concepts like intelectual property and security :)
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23:54 | Bertl | we believe it is time to get back some of those lost treasures
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23:56 | theverant | Yeah, no kidding
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23:56 | theverant | the 3D printing world is seeing big waves these days
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23:56 | theverant | patent trolling
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23:57 | theverant | it's all about control and money. It'll be sad if the reprap movement gets damaged by that
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23:58 | Bertl | so much for free world :)
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23:58 | theverant | Do you guys have access do cameras like the Red, BlackMagic, Canon C class, etc?
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23:58 | Bertl | anyway, we are doing our best to change a little bit here and there ...
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23:58 | Bertl | some folks do I guess
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23:59 | theverant | Well I was thinking for testing
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23:59 | theverant | comparing
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23:59 | theverant | as you do image tests
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23:59 | Bertl | probably too expensive atm, might be an option lateron
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23:59 | Bertl | maybe we also get some kind of hardware donations later
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