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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2013/11/28

Timezone: UTC


00:20
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
00:21
FergusL
lol... later Bertl
02:20
Bertl
back now ...
06:43
Sasha_C
joined the channel
07:47
troy_s
I am a huge believer in mood boards for motion projects, but I have to question why.
07:49
troy_s
Who is the piece for? Would randomly well photographed (assuming even attainable) shots make the point or would it read as hypocritical not using the actual camera? Etc.
07:50
troy_s
Further, given the loose domain of the mood boarding, it feels like a wank. We could gather ten clips from ten different individuals in this forum and there would be _zero_ motif, thematic, or connection between them.
07:51
troy_s
Mood board away, but define the playground more clearly before letting the play commence.
08:00
jucar1
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08:01
jucar
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08:30
se6astian
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08:59
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
09:22
philippej
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09:42
philippej
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09:50
philippej
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09:51
philippej
posted a schema to dev, let's see if there is feedback
10:02
philippej
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philippej
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philippej_
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philippej
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philippej_
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10:18
philippej
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10:47
FergusL
hi !
11:35
philippej
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13:02
philippej
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jucar
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jucar1
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13:42
Sasha_C
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15:17
Bertl
morning everyone!
15:35
philippej
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15:51
se6astian
hello!
15:51
Bertl
hey, how's going?
15:59
se6astian
good good, couple of minor website improvements finally completed that we had on the todo list for half a year minimum already ;)
16:07
aombk
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16:08
aombk
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16:15
Bertl
sounds good, I finished the second axiom alpha sensor frontend PCB
16:15
Bertl
I made a few minor changes to it and I still have to test it electrically (which will happen today)
16:19
se6astian
great!
16:20
se6astian
is it possible to provide the reference voltage to the pin required for lowering the row noise as suggested by cmosis?
16:21
Bertl
at some point, yes, I already investigated this, but it cannot be done without additional circuitry
16:23
se6astian
a dedicated wire to the one pin from the planned power supply?
16:23
Bertl
I also have no clue yet (open question) how much power the CMV12k will require on the Vref input
16:23
Bertl
btw, we got AN01 and AN03, please check if there are other ANxx available
16:24
Bertl
(at least AN02 should be :)
16:26
se6astian
Pieter included AN02 in the mail on November 19th
16:27
Bertl
okay, please forward it to me or upload it somewhere
16:28
se6astian
the mail was sent to you as well actually
16:28
se6astian
but I just saw some ANs related to the CMV4000 in the client zone that might be interesting as well
16:29
se6astian
will email it all together
16:29
Bertl
excellent, thanks!
16:29
se6astian
sent
16:29
Bertl
so, regarding 'row noise': if it just needs a stable voltage and doesn't draw any significant current, then we have a simple solution already available
16:30
Bertl
the sensor frontend design includes a DAC converter for the VTref and VTsig pins
16:31
Bertl
this could also be used to supply the Vref pin with minimal modification
16:32
se6astian
perfect!
16:32
Bertl
but it would be essential that the CMV12k doesn't much current from that pin, otherwise it would make things worse :)
16:33
Bertl
*doesn't draw
16:34
Bertl
finally, I'm not convinced that we actually need this at all right now, very likely we can correct for this in software
16:36
se6astian
agreed
16:36
Bertl
but a 'patch' to the hardware is doable I'd say
16:52
philippej
Bertl, as they presented it to us (the external voltage instead of builtin), it reduces noise by 25%, and some register changes reduce it 25% further
16:52
philippej
Hello by the way :-)
16:53
Bertl
yes, I read that in AN01 :) the question is, how much current does it require? :)
16:54
philippej
do you think if it's a reference for ad conversion, it might be low?
16:54
philippej
hopefuly :-)
16:55
philippej
I just read your reply, I'll have to do my homework now, and rework it all :-)
16:55
Bertl
everything is possible, it could be 'just' a reference, or it could be the actualy reference supply to every pixel :)
16:56
philippej
ah yes
16:56
philippej
btw you can ask them directly
16:56
philippej
they said they can be contacted for this kind of questions
16:57
se6astian
we agreed to collect together all questions and send them to cmosis in regular intervals
16:57
se6astian
maybe we have collected together enough already?
16:58
Bertl
we probably have a bunch of open questions, I'll check and update my list today
16:58
Bertl
the 1.12 datasheet is still the last one?
16:58
Bertl
(i.e. the most recent one :)
17:01
se6astian
yes, the client zone still contains only the V11 one :)
17:02
Bertl
I think they are updating the datasheets whenever we ask something, just to say "it's in the (new) datasheet"
17:04
se6astian
possible :)
17:09
se6astian
just got a new(old) idea that we did not visualize yet
17:17
philippej
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17:25
se6astian
quick and dirty concept: https://cloud.gerade.org/public.php?service=files&t=88644302ffde4f6e5659627a3c8bbf32&download&path=/Axiom/axiom-modules-distance-extension01.jpg
17:26
se6astian
a module to extend the distance between modules :)
17:26
Bertl
regarding web pages: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.apertus.org
17:28
se6astian
thanks, added to todo list
17:35
philippej
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17:37
se6astian
<se6astian> quick and dirty concept: https://cloud.gerade.org/public.php?service=files&t=88644302ffde4f6e5659627a3c8bbf32&download&path=/Axiom/axiom-modules-distance-extension01.jpg
17:37
se6astian
<se6astian> a module to extend the distance between modules :)
17:38
Bertl
is there a reason why the images uploaded to 'your' cloud are not inline?
17:40
Bertl
ah, I see, because you always paste the 'download' url :)
17:40
Bertl
(removing the &download makes them inline (i.e. viewable in the browser)
17:42
se6astian
good to know
17:42
philippej
I like it
17:42
philippej
since your two last emails, i guess we need to find proper connectors
17:43
philippej
and decide what makes most sense on the "slow //" vs fast serial
17:43
se6astian
maybe the PCI/104-Express Connectors can help us :)
17:43
se6astian
http://www.pc104.org/pci104e_specs.php
17:45
philippej
first, do we allow the head to be opened to connect the recorder ?
17:45
philippej
imho, after all a bad idea
17:46
se6astian
what do you mean?
17:48
philippej
is the internal of the head directly accessible to the outside when you connect the recorder
17:48
philippej
in other word, you remove the back of the head, or is it some lemo style connector that attaches to the recorder
17:49
philippej
can dust enter the head or not when connecting the recorder
17:49
se6astian
http://www.samtec.com/standards/pc104-ebx.aspx
17:50
se6astian
currently the open module concept has an "open" tube when it is not assembled completely
17:52
philippej
I think we need to reconsider this, if the idea is to remove the recorder on the field
17:53
se6astian
the open module concept so far does not cover any "in the field" reassembly
17:53
philippej
there is this option, from gopro : http://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/gopro-hd-hero-lcd-bacpac-and-battery-bacpac/gopro-lcd-bacpac-80_tiny_acldb-003-480x299.jpg
17:53
philippej
very nice way of doing it imho
17:58
philippej
PCI/104-Express looks like the best of both worlds
17:59
philippej
the connector could get out of the box from a rectangular hole in the box, limiting dust and problems
18:01
se6astian
creating a metal part to cover the opening is quite straight forward and should also help with shielding between modules: https://cloud.gerade.org/public.php?service=files&t=88644302ffde4f6e5659627a3c8bbf32&path=/Axiom/open-modules-concept-cover01.jpg
18:04
se6astian
http://www.samtec.com/documents/webfiles/pdf/ru8.pdf
18:04
Bertl
if that metal part is the right metal :)
18:04
se6astian
thin steel I guess?
18:05
Bertl
steel coated with tin would be a good choice
18:06
Bertl
(here known as 'Weissblech')
18:07
se6astian
perfect
18:10
se6astian
This RU8 product from Samtec comes in versions 26LVDS pairs (51mm length), 32 LVDS pairs (59mm length) and 38 LVDS pairs (67mm length) versions
18:11
se6astian
but they are all rather for rather high speed: 7-15 Ghz so we might be better of to find connectors that are meant to be used with slower speeds?
18:12
Bertl
it doesn't hurt if they are designed for high speed, but probably something around 2GHz is fine for our LVDs purposes
18:14
[1]se6astian
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18:16
se6astian
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18:16
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
18:19
Bertl
sitting here and probing every sensor socket pin reminds me: what happened to the peel-a-way sockets?
18:21
philippej
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18:26
Bertl
for the RU8 riser, would be interesting to know how much current each trace can carry
18:27
Bertl
(for the differential pair version)
18:27
Bertl
and of course, the price
18:35
VBenjFR
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18:37
VBenjFR
Hi,
18:38
VBenjFR
I wanted to know a bit more about the apertus project
18:39
VBenjFR
I would like to participate in my field of competence (mechanical engeeniring)
18:39
VBenjFR
but I did not find a list of task related to the project.
18:40
Bertl
welcome VBenjFR!
18:40
VBenjFR
Thanks Bertl
18:40
Bertl
it is on the todo list (to make such a page)
18:41
Bertl
I guess there is quite a number of tasks regarding mechanical engineering, especially with the camera body
18:41
VBenjFR
Great!
18:41
Bertl
but that is more planning and brain storming ATM
18:41
VBenjFR
Sound good to plan before to go ...
18:42
Bertl
se6astian and philippe are working on the 'modular' concept from a design PoV
18:42
VBenjFR
I read the newsletter on this topic
18:42
Bertl
I guess it would help a lot to add the mechanical engineering know how to that :)
18:43
Bertl
I'm trying to help with the electrical aspects
18:43
VBenjFR
I would love to learn how you manage to work all together on this subject,
18:44
VBenjFR
If I can give you a hand on it...
18:44
Bertl
well, communication is key, the IRC channel is a viable part of that
18:45
VBenjFR
You've got a list of specifications and try to answer it on IRC?
18:46
Bertl
list of specifications?
18:48
VBenjFR
For exemple for modular electrical developpement, you know that you will have to pass a certain amount of power in each module, get some electrical information from each module and transport the whole up to the treatment
18:49
VBenjFR
For specification you will have the power availability,
18:49
VBenjFR
the intensity of signal
18:50
VBenjFR
and the component implentation on module?
18:51
VBenjFR
You have a list of in and out signal?
18:52
VBenjFR
Maybe I am totally wrong and the developpement is not like that...
19:02
Bertl
yes, the good thing is, we haven't decided on anything yet
19:03
Bertl
i.e. we know what the goal is, and we precisely know the details for the axiom alpha prototype
19:03
Bertl
(which was completed some time ago, we are currently making the second one for testing)
19:04
Bertl
but for the axiom camera or even the beta prototype, we haven't decided anything yet
19:05
Bertl
but you are right, we have certain estimations and minimum requirements for all those things (elecrtically for example)
19:08
Bertl
so to pick up your example, we know what data we need to transport between sensor and FPGA, we know the minimum required bandwidth, we know the expected electrical interface, but we do not have decided on a specific sensor, FPGA or connector for example
19:11
VBenjFR
OK, so by IRC you will disccuss on every imposition on each module (input and output, dimensions, interfacing point) and choose the best way to build the module?
19:11
Bertl
for example
19:11
VBenjFR
Right, thanks for this explanation
19:11
Bertl
you're welcome!
19:12
VBenjFR
So, I have been in touch with Se6astian by mail, which invit me to contact him on IRC or you
19:13
VBenjFR
I do not know if you were in copy of mail...
19:13
VBenjFR
As I said before I would like to participate to this project
19:14
VBenjFR
but I don't really know how to beging
19:15
VBenjFR
You already answer me to get in touch more with Se6astian, wich is closer of my competence field
19:15
VBenjFR
maybe
19:18
Bertl
well, I guess a good start was to get here, prepare to hang around on IRC and join the discussion(s)
19:18
Bertl
for specific tasks, if that is what you are looking for, it really depends on what you think you can do
19:22
VBenjFR
To be honest I did not applied a lot of what I learned in school to my day to day work... soI hope to discover some new aspect of mechanical engineering in this project
19:23
VBenjFR
and for that, I am really open to propositions
19:23
Bertl
fair enough, most of us are here to learn something new
19:24
Bertl
so what are would interest you most?
19:25
Bertl
*area
19:30
VBenjFR
Is there still some work to do on mechanical support of camera?
19:30
Bertl
sure, even the prototype needs some love in this regard
19:31
VBenjFR
I did notice a road and rail topic on forum...
19:32
VBenjFR
the topic rod support is interresting, I noticed a lot of work done on it
19:32
VBenjFR
and the differents ideas where interresting
19:36
aombk
left the channel
19:58
VBenjFR
Thanks for the informations, I will do my best to invest myself on this part of the project and to stay tuned on IRC. Good night!
19:58
se6astian
Bertl, Peel away guys, never heard anything again from them, should I send an email?
20:00
VBenjFR
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20:20
[1]se6astian
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20:23
se6astian
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20:23
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
20:34
Bertl
se6astian: yes, please contact them again, and specifically ask for the peel-a-way connectors matching the CMV12k footprint, i.e. 4x30 @ 1.27mm and 2 x 4x30 @ 1.27mm with 16 rows space
20:35
Bertl
(both male and female)
20:36
Bertl
just tested the second sensor FE, everything working as expected!
20:38
se6astian
will do
20:39
se6astian
wonderful!
20:46
philippej
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20:54
philippej
Bertl, congrat on the second board testing going well :-)
20:55
Bertl
thanks, it means that we will have some images from the new sensor soon
20:59
philippej
;-)
21:00
philippej
I'll rework my schema from recent discussion, at least if you think it has some use for the future prototype / product ?
21:05
Bertl
I think we should discuss what we want to connect between modules and how they connect to eachother
21:06
Bertl
the concept itself was not really new (sorry to disappoint you there :) and mostly general (i.e. yes, there has to be some connection between them :)
21:06
Bertl
don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you pointed it out and some more folks get aware that this is something which requires some thought
21:09
Bertl
so yes, I think it is very important to figure out what kind of connection/data/etc we need or can get away with :)
21:17
se6astian
left the channel
21:26
philippej
fine, I will update the doc. I know it's not a revolution, but since we don't have an overview / comon ground, at least if it can help, I'm happy
21:33
philippej
left the channel
21:35
Bertl
time for a nap ... bbl