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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2016/06/27

Timezone: UTC


00:42
Spirit532
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02:24
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
02:24
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
02:48
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fredy
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fredy
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fredy
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fredy
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07:24
AXIOM-HQ
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07:40
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
07:40
Bertl
morning folks!
07:45
se6astian
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09:02
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intracube
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
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09:55
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
09:55
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
10:33
Spirit532
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pusle
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intracube
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13:02
Andrej74
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13:03
maxbrsw
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13:08
maxbrsw
Hi, can I talk with Bertl?
13:11
Bertl_oO
probably :)
13:12
maxbrsw
Awesome :) My name is Max, couple days ago I sent message covering my willing to contribute to Apertus as PCB designer
13:13
se6astian
hi Max
13:13
se6astian
I just replied to you
13:13
se6astian
great you joined the channel immediately!
13:13
maxbrsw
Hi Sebastian, yeah I saw your message
13:14
maxbrsw
so what do you think about this?
13:14
se6astian
I think its great
13:14
se6astian
bertl created all the AXIOM Beta hardware so far
13:15
se6astian
he is your man for discussing what a subproject could be for you
13:15
se6astian
maybe a plugin module
13:15
maxbrsw
what software do you use for PCB design?
13:15
Bertl_oO
we mostly used Eagle for the current designs
13:16
Bertl_oO
(basically exclusively for Beta designs, but we plan to migrate to KiCad)
13:16
maxbrsw
Is something like Altium Designer and/or Cadencce Allegro acceptable? I own license for Altium
13:17
Bertl_oO
well, the problem with Altium is that the format is not documented/readable and the designs are not even viewable on other platforms like Linux or Mac
13:18
Bertl_oO
and if you want to change anything you need to pay big bucks as you probably know
13:18
Bertl_oO
so, working/designing with it is probably fine, but at some point you want to convert it to something more open source friendly
13:19
maxbrsw
sure, I understand this - maybe it's possible to use sort of 3d party format, something not CAD-specific?
13:20
Bertl_oO
if you figure out how to convert the designs to KiCad for example, then it shouldn't be a big deal and would be a nice solution
13:20
maxbrsw
let me investigate this
13:21
Bertl_oO
but as we do not want to spend the big bucks for a license and also I don't use Windows, we don't know what is available there
13:22
maxbrsw
well, from what I can see there are importers from Altium to Kicad (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/kicad/importing-altium-pcb-into-kicad/)
13:22
maxbrsw
probably there are even more fresh versions of it
13:28
maxbrsw
from what I found at the moment it looks like even schematics can be imported
13:29
maxbrsw
so what do you think about such workflow?
13:33
Bertl_oO
make sure it works fine, i.e. get a design you already did and convert it completely and check that everything is fine
13:33
Bertl_oO
if that turns out to give acceptable results, then this is a working way to proceed
13:35
maxbrsw
alright, I'll test those importers later today and get back to you with results
13:36
Bertl_oO
excellent!
13:38
maxbrsw
ok, I'm leaving for now to finish some stuff and then proceed with mentioned things- so I hope we will talk soon:) BB
13:39
Bertl_oO
cya and have fun!
13:43
maxbrsw
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14:04
jucar
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14:19
Spirit532_
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Spirit532
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14:33
kaiserlich
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jucar
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kaiserlich
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14:40
Spirit532_
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14:59
se6astian
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15:35
kaiserlich
why are we migrating from eagle to kicad? (i've only ever heard of eagle, just looking up kicad)
15:35
Bertl_oO
KiCad is a very promising open source EDA solution
15:36
Bertl_oO
especially since CERN decided to actively contribute to the project
15:36
kaiserlich
ah!
15:36
Bertl_oO
https://home.cern/about/updates/2015/02/kicad-software-gets-cern-treatment
15:37
Bertl_oO
http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages
15:38
kaiserlich
thx!
15:39
Bertl_oO
np
16:16
maxbrsw
joined the channel
16:19
maxbrsw
Hi again Bertl - we've discussed today possibility of Altium to Kicad export in context of possible PCB design contribution
16:19
Bertl_oO
yup
16:20
maxbrsw
I've tried couple things with Kicad and failed :)- don't have any idea how to even proceed with that sort of guide from existing import links
16:20
maxbrsw
also asked in Kicad IRC- they say, "it's difficult"
16:21
Bertl_oO
that was what I feared ... :/
16:21
maxbrsw
that was the most informative explanation I managed to get from that IRC xD
16:21
Bertl_oO
what I remember from the last time I read about it, that it requires the files to be written in a special ASCII version from altium
16:22
Bertl_oO
(in case that helps)
16:22
maxbrsw
what seems bad also- a fact that guys which somehow managed to proceed with import, the report about bags and missing copper
16:22
maxbrsw
yeah, but I can't even start opening :) maybe becasue I'm complete noob in Kicad, dunno
16:26
Bertl_oO
well, we won't stop you from contributing to the project because you use altium
16:27
Bertl_oO
but you should be aware that it doesn't make too much sense if only a slect few can view and edit your designs
16:29
Bertl_oO
also I do not think that it is a good choice to store design data in a proprietary format which is mostly unknown
16:30
Bertl_oO
(might easily get lost when altium decides to quit or similar)
16:30
maxbrsw
yes, I understand that - but probably it's worth to try, as I'm very proficient in Altium xD
16:30
maxbrsw
meaning format- ASCII may help, so EAGLE can understand it even taken from Altium
16:38
Bertl_oO
never tried an Altium import in Eagle
16:39
Bertl_oO
but that might work
16:39
Bertl_oO
maybe give that a try, we are working on an Eagle to KiCad export
16:40
maxbrsw
alright- so do you have any actual PCB designs to be handled?
16:41
Bertl_oO
there is a lot which can be worked on, for example we plan for a 4K HDMI out plugin module
16:42
Bertl_oO
somebody might be working on that though
16:43
Bertl_oO
but there are other areas as well, like for SDI
16:44
maxbrsw
whatever is required, I can start with anything that has highest priority or interest
16:45
Bertl_oO
are you already familiar with the existing designs?
16:46
maxbrsw
not too much I think- just brief previews
16:47
Bertl_oO
well, it would probably be a good start to get comfortable with it, as all the parts work together somehow and there is not much which can be completely separated
16:47
Bertl_oO
for plugins and shields the interfaces are crucial
16:49
Bertl_oO
an SDI plugin is for sure something nobody is currently working on and everybody would like to see :)
16:49
niemand
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16:49
maxbrsw
so what will be the starting point? BTW, how collaborators are contacting each other? Do you have some "corporate standards" in design methodology, workflow etc.?
16:50
maxbrsw
may I now more about this SDI plugin :)?
16:51
Bertl_oO
we try to conform with plugins, shields and boards to the OSHpark 2/4 layer standard
16:51
Bertl_oO
so that folks around the world can easily get their hands on those boards without ordering large amounts in china
16:53
maxbrsw
I see - so these : http://docs.oshpark.com/services/, are design rules for PCB, right?
16:53
fredy
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fredy
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16:53
Bertl_oO
basically limitations on what you can do, yes
16:54
Bertl_oO
but if there is a real need for going beyond that, we can make an exception, especially for more expensive plugins or addons
16:54
Bertl_oO
the main communication medium is IRC
16:55
Bertl_oO
(e-Mail is also fine when it makes sense)
16:55
maxbrsw
alright, so meaning this I believe those design rules(and capabilities) from OSHpark are not for high-speed stuff, right?
16:56
Bertl_oO
depends on how you define high-speed stuff
16:56
Bertl_oO
after all, the entire Beta as it is now (except for the MicroZed development kit) works fine within the OSHpark limits
16:57
niemand
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16:57
maxbrsw
DD3/4, PCIe Gen3 and so on- at least something that requires impedance control and length matching
16:57
Bertl_oO
well, length matching is not a problem with OSHpark
16:58
Bertl_oO
controlled impedance is, but if you calculate it correctly, the PCBs will not differ much between runs
16:58
Bertl_oO
but of course, you have to do the work on getting the impedance right
16:58
maxbrsw
I mean, generally many of high-speed rules are based on stakup info, but I don't see any stakups there on their site
16:59
Bertl_oO
http://docs.oshpark.com/services/four-layer/
16:59
maxbrsw
thanks, that answers my question
17:00
maxbrsw
how desings are submitted and reviewed? Do you use versions control system of any kind?
17:03
se6astian
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17:03
Bertl_oO
we have a repository on github where we try to check in the designs when they are worked on by more than one party
17:04
Bertl_oO
of course, you can use whatever revision system you like when you work on your own
17:04
maxbrsw
gthub works good for me
17:04
maxbrsw
so how I can start?
17:05
Bertl_oO
for the SDI plugin, get intimate with the plugin interface and the size of those plugin modules
17:06
Bertl_oO
figure out how to convert the LVDS interface to proper (high speed) SDI and how to fit suitable connectors on the plugin module
17:06
maxbrsw
where I can get info about/project files this? It's in your repository?
17:07
Bertl_oO
the most recent information can be found here:
17:07
Bertl_oO
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/
17:08
Bertl_oO
check out the main board (v0.36 r1.2) for the plugin interface
17:08
Bertl_oO
check out the 1xHDMI and 3xPMOD plugins for the plugin sizes and connections
17:08
Bertl_oO
(latest versions)
17:19
John-K
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17:20
niemand
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17:22
maxbrsw
ok, I looked at that stuff - about that SDI module, what's current status if it? Any constraints, requirements, schematic drafts?
17:25
Bertl_oO
nothing besides the plugin sizes and the interface
17:26
Bertl_oO
nobody started to work on that yet, so current status: planned
17:28
maxbrsw
asking because I'm not sure that after looking at those files my understanding of things required is clear enough
17:29
Bertl_oO
just ask if something is unclear
17:32
maxbrsw
What I managed to get(most likely) is that:
17:33
maxbrsw
1)you have sort of board that is stacked with Microzed board 2) there are kind of expansion boards(modules)3) there should be kind of SDI expansion board
17:33
maxbrsw
if I'm not mistaken of course
17:34
maxbrsw
the rest is in dark :)
17:39
fredy
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fredy
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17:41
Bertl_oO
that's why I said you should get comfortable with the current design of the Beta first
17:43
se6astian
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se6astian
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17:48
maxbrsw
probably I could understand the main concept looking at this:http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/PCB-Stack-Concept-V03-02-nofan-50-Bertl.jpg
17:48
maxbrsw
but also expected complete details about desired fuctionality, pinout, constraints etc of that SDI module
17:49
maxbrsw
in relation to entire system of course
17:54
derek-plethora
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17:54
se6astian
hi derek!
17:55
derek-plethora
Hello
17:55
se6astian
great to see you here
17:55
derek-plethora
Yeah! sorry it took me so long.
17:55
se6astian
no worries
17:55
derek-plethora
I was just talking to my prototype machinist about your project.
17:56
se6astian
actual perfect timing as I just returned to the pc :)
17:56
derek-plethora
We want to machine a housing for my camera body this week that could hold your hardware.
17:57
se6astian
excellent!
17:57
se6astian
did you download the 3d files from github already?
17:58
se6astian
some things with the enclosure design are not obvious
17:58
davidak
Bertl_oO: do tools like Kicad have a functionality to reorganize components to improve the design and reduce wire straps?
17:59
derek-plethora
I was just checking out the github
18:03
kaiserlich
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18:04
maxbrsw
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18:06
se6astian
it would actually be a great idea if you could cover the groundwork for others who want to design a custom enclosure
18:06
se6astian
collecting the files together, creating a wiki page what to keep in mind
18:06
se6astian
collecting links, dimensions, requirements
18:06
se6astian
in case this is something you would want to do?
18:09
derek-plethora
Yeah I can work on that
18:09
se6astian
great
18:09
derek-plethora
Is see the 'beta-hardware' branch, are there any others?
18:09
se6astian
no thats the right one
18:09
se6astian
under enclosure
18:10
se6astian
the simple design is https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/AXIOM-Beta-Simple-Enclosure-Explosion01.jpg
18:15
derek-plethora
Im cloning the branch onto my machine now, brb
18:23
se6astian
great
18:23
se6astian
the folder structure is a bit confusing
18:23
se6astian
version 2, skeleton, simple enclosure, etc....
18:23
se6astian
but thats how it always ends up when you create new revisions, new branches, different approaches, etc :)
18:25
derek-plethora
What was the motivation for this project?
18:28
se6astian
https://www.apertus.org/history
18:28
se6astian
https://www.apertus.org/about
18:32
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
18:33
derek-plethora
haha, touche
18:33
Bertl
davidak: you mean auto placement?
18:33
derek-plethora
I guess, I meant more personal motivations? but I'll digest this more.
18:33
davidak
yes
18:33
Bertl
davidak: that is something which never works well and typically results in very bad designs :)
18:33
davidak
i think a computer might could do that better than humans
18:34
Bertl
you can see how problematic this is with FPGA tools
18:34
Bertl
the main problem is that the computer/program doesn't have all the information
18:34
davidak
maybe SI could solve that someday
18:35
davidak
AI
18:35
Bertl
yep, probably ... you can try it yourself with the autorouter on existing designs
18:35
Bertl
i.e. it is easy to rip up a finished board, leave the components where they are and let the autorouter do its work
18:36
Bertl
the result is typically very sad :)
18:36
davidak
ok
18:36
Bertl
component placement is even more problematic and similar to chess/go the search space explodes very fast
18:41
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se6astian
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Andrej74
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se6astian
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19:16
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
19:16
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
19:26
se6astian
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19:29
se6astian|away
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20:36
fredy
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fredy_
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20:39
se6astian
of to bed
20:39
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
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niemand
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John-K
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John-K
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John-K
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John-K
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fredy_
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fredy
changed nick to: Guest74185
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jucar
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John-K
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23:26
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
23:26
Bertl
back now ...
23:34
derek-plethora
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23:37
John-K
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John-K
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23:42
derek-plethora
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23:44
derek-plethora
I'll just leave these here for now :D
23:44
derek-plethora
http://www.derekburgess.com/share/customcam/digi/digi_back.PNG
23:44
derek-plethora
http://www.derekburgess.com/share/customcam/digi/digi_back_4.PNG
23:45
derek-plethora
There are more images in there if you adjust the URL.
23:57
Bertl
nice