Current Server Time: 06:19 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2016/06/27

Timezone: UTC


01:42
Spirit532
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03:24
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
03:24
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
03:48
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fredy
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fredy
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fredy
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08:24
AXIOM-HQ
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08:40
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
08:40
Bertl
morning folks!
08:45
se6astian
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10:02
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intracube
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
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10:55
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
10:55
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
11:33
Spirit532
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pusle
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intracube
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14:02
Andrej74
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14:03
maxbrsw
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14:08
maxbrsw
Hi, can I talk with Bertl?
14:11
Bertl_oO
probably :)
14:12
maxbrsw
Awesome :) My name is Max, couple days ago I sent message covering my willing to contribute to Apertus as PCB designer
14:13
se6astian
hi Max
14:13
se6astian
I just replied to you
14:13
se6astian
great you joined the channel immediately!
14:13
maxbrsw
Hi Sebastian, yeah I saw your message
14:14
maxbrsw
so what do you think about this?
14:14
se6astian
I think its great
14:14
se6astian
bertl created all the AXIOM Beta hardware so far
14:15
se6astian
he is your man for discussing what a subproject could be for you
14:15
se6astian
maybe a plugin module
14:15
maxbrsw
what software do you use for PCB design?
14:15
Bertl_oO
we mostly used Eagle for the current designs
14:16
Bertl_oO
(basically exclusively for Beta designs, but we plan to migrate to KiCad)
14:16
maxbrsw
Is something like Altium Designer and/or Cadencce Allegro acceptable? I own license for Altium
14:17
Bertl_oO
well, the problem with Altium is that the format is not documented/readable and the designs are not even viewable on other platforms like Linux or Mac
14:18
Bertl_oO
and if you want to change anything you need to pay big bucks as you probably know
14:18
Bertl_oO
so, working/designing with it is probably fine, but at some point you want to convert it to something more open source friendly
14:19
maxbrsw
sure, I understand this - maybe it's possible to use sort of 3d party format, something not CAD-specific?
14:20
Bertl_oO
if you figure out how to convert the designs to KiCad for example, then it shouldn't be a big deal and would be a nice solution
14:20
maxbrsw
let me investigate this
14:21
Bertl_oO
but as we do not want to spend the big bucks for a license and also I don't use Windows, we don't know what is available there
14:22
maxbrsw
well, from what I can see there are importers from Altium to Kicad (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/kicad/importing-altium-pcb-into-kicad/)
14:22
maxbrsw
probably there are even more fresh versions of it
14:28
maxbrsw
from what I found at the moment it looks like even schematics can be imported
14:29
maxbrsw
so what do you think about such workflow?
14:33
Bertl_oO
make sure it works fine, i.e. get a design you already did and convert it completely and check that everything is fine
14:33
Bertl_oO
if that turns out to give acceptable results, then this is a working way to proceed
14:35
maxbrsw
alright, I'll test those importers later today and get back to you with results
14:36
Bertl_oO
excellent!
14:38
maxbrsw
ok, I'm leaving for now to finish some stuff and then proceed with mentioned things- so I hope we will talk soon:) BB
14:39
Bertl_oO
cya and have fun!
14:43
maxbrsw
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15:04
jucar
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15:19
Spirit532_
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15:23
Spirit532
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15:33
kaiserlich
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jucar
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kaiserlich
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15:40
Spirit532_
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15:59
se6astian
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16:35
kaiserlich
why are we migrating from eagle to kicad? (i've only ever heard of eagle, just looking up kicad)
16:35
Bertl_oO
KiCad is a very promising open source EDA solution
16:36
Bertl_oO
especially since CERN decided to actively contribute to the project
16:36
kaiserlich
ah!
16:36
Bertl_oO
https://home.cern/about/updates/2015/02/kicad-software-gets-cern-treatment
16:37
Bertl_oO
http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages
16:38
kaiserlich
thx!
16:39
Bertl_oO
np
17:16
maxbrsw
joined the channel
17:19
maxbrsw
Hi again Bertl - we've discussed today possibility of Altium to Kicad export in context of possible PCB design contribution
17:19
Bertl_oO
yup
17:20
maxbrsw
I've tried couple things with Kicad and failed :)- don't have any idea how to even proceed with that sort of guide from existing import links
17:20
maxbrsw
also asked in Kicad IRC- they say, "it's difficult"
17:21
Bertl_oO
that was what I feared ... :/
17:21
maxbrsw
that was the most informative explanation I managed to get from that IRC xD
17:21
Bertl_oO
what I remember from the last time I read about it, that it requires the files to be written in a special ASCII version from altium
17:22
Bertl_oO
(in case that helps)
17:22
maxbrsw
what seems bad also- a fact that guys which somehow managed to proceed with import, the report about bags and missing copper
17:22
maxbrsw
yeah, but I can't even start opening :) maybe becasue I'm complete noob in Kicad, dunno
17:26
Bertl_oO
well, we won't stop you from contributing to the project because you use altium
17:27
Bertl_oO
but you should be aware that it doesn't make too much sense if only a slect few can view and edit your designs
17:29
Bertl_oO
also I do not think that it is a good choice to store design data in a proprietary format which is mostly unknown
17:30
Bertl_oO
(might easily get lost when altium decides to quit or similar)
17:30
maxbrsw
yes, I understand that - but probably it's worth to try, as I'm very proficient in Altium xD
17:30
maxbrsw
meaning format- ASCII may help, so EAGLE can understand it even taken from Altium
17:38
Bertl_oO
never tried an Altium import in Eagle
17:39
Bertl_oO
but that might work
17:39
Bertl_oO
maybe give that a try, we are working on an Eagle to KiCad export
17:40
maxbrsw
alright- so do you have any actual PCB designs to be handled?
17:41
Bertl_oO
there is a lot which can be worked on, for example we plan for a 4K HDMI out plugin module
17:42
Bertl_oO
somebody might be working on that though
17:43
Bertl_oO
but there are other areas as well, like for SDI
17:44
maxbrsw
whatever is required, I can start with anything that has highest priority or interest
17:45
Bertl_oO
are you already familiar with the existing designs?
17:46
maxbrsw
not too much I think- just brief previews
17:47
Bertl_oO
well, it would probably be a good start to get comfortable with it, as all the parts work together somehow and there is not much which can be completely separated
17:47
Bertl_oO
for plugins and shields the interfaces are crucial
17:49
Bertl_oO
an SDI plugin is for sure something nobody is currently working on and everybody would like to see :)
17:49
niemand
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17:49
maxbrsw
so what will be the starting point? BTW, how collaborators are contacting each other? Do you have some "corporate standards" in design methodology, workflow etc.?
17:50
maxbrsw
may I now more about this SDI plugin :)?
17:51
Bertl_oO
we try to conform with plugins, shields and boards to the OSHpark 2/4 layer standard
17:51
Bertl_oO
so that folks around the world can easily get their hands on those boards without ordering large amounts in china
17:53
maxbrsw
I see - so these : http://docs.oshpark.com/services/, are design rules for PCB, right?
17:53
fredy
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fredy
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17:53
Bertl_oO
basically limitations on what you can do, yes
17:54
Bertl_oO
but if there is a real need for going beyond that, we can make an exception, especially for more expensive plugins or addons
17:54
Bertl_oO
the main communication medium is IRC
17:55
Bertl_oO
(e-Mail is also fine when it makes sense)
17:55
maxbrsw
alright, so meaning this I believe those design rules(and capabilities) from OSHpark are not for high-speed stuff, right?
17:56
Bertl_oO
depends on how you define high-speed stuff
17:56
Bertl_oO
after all, the entire Beta as it is now (except for the MicroZed development kit) works fine within the OSHpark limits
17:57
niemand
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17:57
maxbrsw
DD3/4, PCIe Gen3 and so on- at least something that requires impedance control and length matching
17:57
Bertl_oO
well, length matching is not a problem with OSHpark
17:58
Bertl_oO
controlled impedance is, but if you calculate it correctly, the PCBs will not differ much between runs
17:58
Bertl_oO
but of course, you have to do the work on getting the impedance right
17:58
maxbrsw
I mean, generally many of high-speed rules are based on stakup info, but I don't see any stakups there on their site
17:59
Bertl_oO
http://docs.oshpark.com/services/four-layer/
17:59
maxbrsw
thanks, that answers my question
18:00
maxbrsw
how desings are submitted and reviewed? Do you use versions control system of any kind?
18:03
se6astian
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18:03
Bertl_oO
we have a repository on github where we try to check in the designs when they are worked on by more than one party
18:04
Bertl_oO
of course, you can use whatever revision system you like when you work on your own
18:04
maxbrsw
gthub works good for me
18:04
maxbrsw
so how I can start?
18:05
Bertl_oO
for the SDI plugin, get intimate with the plugin interface and the size of those plugin modules
18:06
Bertl_oO
figure out how to convert the LVDS interface to proper (high speed) SDI and how to fit suitable connectors on the plugin module
18:06
maxbrsw
where I can get info about/project files this? It's in your repository?
18:07
Bertl_oO
the most recent information can be found here:
18:07
Bertl_oO
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/
18:08
Bertl_oO
check out the main board (v0.36 r1.2) for the plugin interface
18:08
Bertl_oO
check out the 1xHDMI and 3xPMOD plugins for the plugin sizes and connections
18:08
Bertl_oO
(latest versions)
18:19
John-K
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18:20
niemand
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18:22
maxbrsw
ok, I looked at that stuff - about that SDI module, what's current status if it? Any constraints, requirements, schematic drafts?
18:25
Bertl_oO
nothing besides the plugin sizes and the interface
18:26
Bertl_oO
nobody started to work on that yet, so current status: planned
18:28
maxbrsw
asking because I'm not sure that after looking at those files my understanding of things required is clear enough
18:29
Bertl_oO
just ask if something is unclear
18:32
maxbrsw
What I managed to get(most likely) is that:
18:33
maxbrsw
1)you have sort of board that is stacked with Microzed board 2) there are kind of expansion boards(modules)3) there should be kind of SDI expansion board
18:33
maxbrsw
if I'm not mistaken of course
18:34
maxbrsw
the rest is in dark :)
18:39
fredy
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fredy
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18:41
Bertl_oO
that's why I said you should get comfortable with the current design of the Beta first
18:43
se6astian
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se6astian
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18:48
maxbrsw
probably I could understand the main concept looking at this:http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/PCB-Stack-Concept-V03-02-nofan-50-Bertl.jpg
18:48
maxbrsw
but also expected complete details about desired fuctionality, pinout, constraints etc of that SDI module
18:49
maxbrsw
in relation to entire system of course
18:54
derek-plethora
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18:54
se6astian
hi derek!
18:55
derek-plethora
Hello
18:55
se6astian
great to see you here
18:55
derek-plethora
Yeah! sorry it took me so long.
18:55
se6astian
no worries
18:55
derek-plethora
I was just talking to my prototype machinist about your project.
18:56
se6astian
actual perfect timing as I just returned to the pc :)
18:56
derek-plethora
We want to machine a housing for my camera body this week that could hold your hardware.
18:57
se6astian
excellent!
18:57
se6astian
did you download the 3d files from github already?
18:58
se6astian
some things with the enclosure design are not obvious
18:58
davidak
Bertl_oO: do tools like Kicad have a functionality to reorganize components to improve the design and reduce wire straps?
18:59
derek-plethora
I was just checking out the github
19:03
kaiserlich
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19:04
maxbrsw
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19:06
se6astian
it would actually be a great idea if you could cover the groundwork for others who want to design a custom enclosure
19:06
se6astian
collecting the files together, creating a wiki page what to keep in mind
19:06
se6astian
collecting links, dimensions, requirements
19:06
se6astian
in case this is something you would want to do?
19:09
derek-plethora
Yeah I can work on that
19:09
se6astian
great
19:09
derek-plethora
Is see the 'beta-hardware' branch, are there any others?
19:09
se6astian
no thats the right one
19:09
se6astian
under enclosure
19:10
se6astian
the simple design is https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/AXIOM-Beta-Simple-Enclosure-Explosion01.jpg
19:15
derek-plethora
Im cloning the branch onto my machine now, brb
19:23
se6astian
great
19:23
se6astian
the folder structure is a bit confusing
19:23
se6astian
version 2, skeleton, simple enclosure, etc....
19:23
se6astian
but thats how it always ends up when you create new revisions, new branches, different approaches, etc :)
19:25
derek-plethora
What was the motivation for this project?
19:28
se6astian
https://www.apertus.org/history
19:28
se6astian
https://www.apertus.org/about
19:32
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
19:33
derek-plethora
haha, touche
19:33
Bertl
davidak: you mean auto placement?
19:33
derek-plethora
I guess, I meant more personal motivations? but I'll digest this more.
19:33
davidak
yes
19:33
Bertl
davidak: that is something which never works well and typically results in very bad designs :)
19:33
davidak
i think a computer might could do that better than humans
19:34
Bertl
you can see how problematic this is with FPGA tools
19:34
Bertl
the main problem is that the computer/program doesn't have all the information
19:34
davidak
maybe SI could solve that someday
19:35
davidak
AI
19:35
Bertl
yep, probably ... you can try it yourself with the autorouter on existing designs
19:35
Bertl
i.e. it is easy to rip up a finished board, leave the components where they are and let the autorouter do its work
19:36
Bertl
the result is typically very sad :)
19:36
davidak
ok
19:36
Bertl
component placement is even more problematic and similar to chess/go the search space explodes very fast
19:41
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se6astian
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Andrej74
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se6astian
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20:16
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
20:16
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
20:26
se6astian
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20:29
se6astian|away
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fredy
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fredy_
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21:39
se6astian
of to bed
21:39
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
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niemand
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John-K
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John-K
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John-K
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John-K
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fredy_
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fredy
changed nick to: Guest74185
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jucar
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John-K
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00:26
Bertl_zZ
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00:26
Bertl
back now ...
00:34
derek-plethora
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00:37
John-K
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John-K
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00:42
derek-plethora
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00:44
derek-plethora
I'll just leave these here for now :D
00:44
derek-plethora
http://www.derekburgess.com/share/customcam/digi/digi_back.PNG
00:44
derek-plethora
http://www.derekburgess.com/share/customcam/digi/digi_back_4.PNG
00:45
derek-plethora
There are more images in there if you adjust the URL.
00:57
Bertl
nice