| 01:43 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: How goes?
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| 01:49 | Bertl_oO | hey troy_s! LTNS!
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| 01:50 | Bertl_oO | it goes slowly but steady ...
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| 01:50 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: How have you been sir? Taming that nasty ass sensor yet?
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| 01:50 | Bertl_oO | didn't do much work on the sensor yet, mostly design and testing for assembly
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| 01:54 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Has there been any motion on that front or just that goofy fakery of dark mumbo jumbo massaging numbers alchemy?
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| 01:55 | Bertl_oO | I don't think so, but you'd have to check with se6astian (who is currently away, despite the nick)
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| 01:57 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Lots of downward pressure in the 1500$ class. Hell even Ursa is downward pressure.
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| 01:57 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Will be interesting to see where this project goes.
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| 01:58 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Have you dropped that godforsaken idiocy of DNG yet or is there a cult of dummy that still pushes for it?
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| 01:58 | Bertl_oO | there is a tool to convert the raw images to DNG .. some folks compile it for the camera or use it on their laptop
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| 02:02 | Bertl_oO | how are your plans in the future? still going to take the easy route and hide under a rock or actually plan to start doing some serious work for the project? ;)
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| 02:04 | intracube | Bertl_oO: troy_s has already told me his interest in the BM Ursa :P
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| 02:06 | Bertl_oO | yeah, probably a lost cause (to the BM price dumping)
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| 02:06 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Not sure what serious work is. If you and I and Gabe and the lot sit in a room, then I'm all up. Grab us a DSC and lets go. If it involves floating around the rubbish of flotsam and jetsam junk that no post production pipeline gives a rats ass about, then not so much.
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| 02:06 | intracube | hot pixels and all
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| 02:06 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: The whole DNG thing is *such* a fools errand. But I know that in your head you already know that.
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| 02:08 | Bertl_oO | I've never pushed DNG but I have no problems with folks working on that ... in contrast to proprietary systems, nobody has to use this or that 'feature'
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| 02:09 | Bertl_oO | regarding 'sit in a room', we can arrange that, virtually and physically if you like to travel (or we find the budget to travel to you)
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| 02:11 | Bertl_oO | hell, if it means that you start doing serious work, I'll probably pay for the trip myself
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| 02:12 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Have you heard from Gabe lately?
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| 02:12 | Bertl_oO | he got his Beta and went on a photo journey (IIRC)
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| 02:13 | Bertl_oO | did some work with preview via Android and such, but I haven't seen anything yet
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| 02:14 | troy_s | Hrm.
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| 02:14 | troy_s | I forgot who else was hammering on the colorimetry... it was irieger?
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| 02:15 | Bertl_oO | yes, Ingmar was doing some work on that
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| 02:15 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Has he been active?
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| 02:15 | Bertl_oO | we still have his config file for the sensor on each and every Beta :)
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| 02:16 | Bertl_oO | It was mostly summer season the last few months with everybody going on vacation
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| 02:17 | Bertl_oO | so no, I haven't heard much from anybody around the world
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| 02:17 | troy_s | Bad luck.
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| 02:17 | troy_s | Any other progress on any other fronts?
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| 02:18 | troy_s | intracube: Oops. Missed your messie. How you doing P?
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| 02:18 | Bertl_oO | but I think it will get better now ...
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| 02:19 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: What's quite interesting was the similar rubbish the BM cameras were doing with those skewed pixels in the higher end. Biasing the highlights. Were you ever able to get the sensor to be less irregular up there?
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| 02:19 | Bertl_oO | we've done a lot of quality assurance and improved testing as well as manufacturing the Beta ... we also added a few new hardware interfaces and features
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| 02:19 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Or were fool's errands at work? Should have just chopped and moved on to a completely stable, chromaticity correct LUT. (Via DSC chart)
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| 02:20 | Bertl_oO | I think we can do a simple 3D LUT for preview (in the Beta) if needed, but we definitely want to keep the raw data (despite the irregularities) for post processing
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| 02:21 | Bertl_oO | i.e. you don't want to 'throw away' data unless you really have to
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| 02:23 | troy_s | Sure. But that upper end seems...
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| 02:23 | troy_s | Not data at all, as you said ages ago.
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| 02:23 | Bertl_oO | well, turns out it contains _some_ data after all, just not very usefull data :)
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| 02:24 | troy_s | If the BM folks, with a solid bit of capital behind them and some decent imaging engineers can't get it to behave and instead are clinging to the marketing rubbish of stops, I'm pretty convinced that a small team of renegades that are under-funded would probably be prudent to simply chop and focus on post production stability.
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| 02:24 | troy_s | (aka *not* data.)
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| 02:24 | troy_s | Guessing binned photosites is junk.
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| 02:27 | Bertl_oO | well, if you would have looked closer at the response curves Alex sampled from the sensor, you might have seen that it is noisy, but clearly valid data not just random bits
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| 02:27 | intracube | Bertl_oO: do you mean the sharp roll-off at the very top end?
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| 02:27 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: I don't look closely at any of that.
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| 02:27 | troy_s | :)
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| 02:28 | troy_s | I'd rather groom the hairs on my back.
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| 02:28 | Bertl_oO | intracube: yes, it is a bend/knee, but it keeps going steady
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| 02:28 | intracube | did anyone find out if it was to do with the PLR feature or something else?
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| 02:29 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Bottom line, did anyone get stable xy values?
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| 02:29 | Bertl_oO | I think it is a hardware limitation, the HDR feature might play a role there as well, but no serious testing has happened yet
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| 02:29 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Without artificially mangling and massaging the data off the sensor?
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| 02:29 | intracube | ok
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| 02:30 | troy_s | (I'm skeptical given the Ursa has the same gibbled up sensor and the transform yields irregularity there too.)
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| 02:30 | Bertl_oO | troy_s: cut at 2400 with gain x1 and you're reasonably linear :)
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| 02:30 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: It's not the nonlinearity that is a factor.
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| 02:30 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: It's stability.
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| 02:30 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Getting a 3D LUT to properly get *stable* and *accurate* xy values is effectively a trivial thing.
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| 02:31 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: But getting stability is the stuff that you can do.
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| 02:31 | troy_s | (If that means chop, so be it.)
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| 02:33 | Bertl_oO | I think chopping off the upper bit is a quick/cheap way to get there (you can test it easily with the linearization LUTs)
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| 02:33 | Bertl_oO | if you want to use the sensor to its full extent, then you have to deal with the few dozen values beyond that bend as well
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| 02:33 | Bertl_oO | (definitely not worth the hazzle for a live preview)
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| 02:34 | Bertl_oO | s/zz/ss/
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| 02:34 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Not worried about nonlinearity as every single sensor ever made has it.
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| 02:34 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: It's that stability factor that you saw *way* back when.
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| 02:35 | troy_s | Bertl_oO: Not much has changed since those early runs I'm guessing. It's vaguely what irieger was seeing as well.
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| 02:35 | Bertl_oO | please refresh my weak memory ...
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| 02:38 | troy_s | Ping me if things shift. Easy to find. Be well sir.
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| 02:38 | troy_s | danieel: Greets. Hope you have been well!
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| 06:21 | Topic | apertus° - open source cinema | www.apertus.org | join the apertus° Lab: http://lab.apertus.org/ | IRC Logs available at: http://irc.apertus.org
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| 06:21 | se6astian | has set the topic |
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| 08:02 | Bertl_oO | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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| 12:20 | Bertl_zZ | changed nick to: Bertl
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| 12:20 | Bertl | morning folks!
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| 12:37 | tyrone | hi all
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| 12:44 | Spirit532 | hi
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| 12:47 | Bertl | hey, how's going?
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| 12:51 | tyrone | on my side good :-)
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| 12:52 | tyrone | and you did you had some holiday after the H2020 marathon?
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| 12:52 | Bertl | a little bit of 'home improvement' vacation yes :)
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| 12:56 | tyrone | at least something that makes the brain fresheee :-)
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| 12:58 | tyrone | hey i have read that for the gamma the low volume cost (100 units) is pretty high what's the main reason?
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| 13:04 | Bertl | the main reason is that it was not optimized for production, i.e. high number of PCB layers, expensive components and large board areas
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| 13:04 | Bertl | the modularity adds a lot of extra cost as well
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| 13:06 | Bertl | hey, do you still work with FPGAs? :)
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| 13:07 | tyrone | never worked with them only on hobby stage try to play with them :-)
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| 13:08 | tyrone | a friend of mine is a prof. dev with fpga.
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| 13:09 | Bertl | get him interested in the AXIOM camera then! ;-)
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| 13:09 | tyrone | that was his first project after school: https://labs.ti.bfh.ch/gecko/wiki/modules/gecko3main/start
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| 13:10 | Bertl | looks nice!
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| 13:12 | tyrone | i will ask him if he would like to support a open source project....
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| 13:12 | Bertl | very appreciated!
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| 13:14 | tyrone | i don't know if he has time because his main open source project that he supports is this one: http://de.publicdomainproject.org/index.php/PD:Chronologie_des_Projekts#24._September
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| 13:29 | tyrone | btw. where do you have at the moment most resource problem?
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| 13:30 | Bertl | still on the hardware and HDL side
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| 13:31 | Bertl | despite the fact that we got a lot of Early Betas into developer hands
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| 13:33 | BogdanSorlea | changed nick to: BogdanXor
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| 13:33 | BogdanXor | neat! :))
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| 13:34 | Bertl | welcome BogdanXor!
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| 13:34 | BogdanXor | heya
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| 13:34 | BogdanXor | I must say I'm intrigued about the project :))
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| 13:34 | BogdanXor | do you need FPGA designers?
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| 13:35 | BogdanXor | :))
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| 13:35 | Bertl | glad to hear! and yes!!! ;)
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| 13:35 | BogdanXor | thought so
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| 13:35 | Bertl | yeah, you already knew ...
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| 13:35 | BogdanXor | maybe - I mean, it's not like there are rivers of FPGA designers out there :))
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| 13:36 | BogdanXor | let me just wrap my head around the project a bit more
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| 13:36 | Bertl | sure, take your time, if you have any questions, just ask
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| 13:39 | BogdanXor | I mean, one question could be: how can I get a Axiom Beta now that the Indiegogo campaign is long over?
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| 13:40 | BogdanXor | I so hate myself for not knowing about it earlier :))
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| 13:40 | Bertl | hehe, that is probably the simplest to answer
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| 13:41 | Bertl | every now and then, there is a voucher holder who wants a refund .. for those we maintain an exchange list, so that folks who are interested in getting a Beta at cost can grab one
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| 13:41 | BogdanXor | so there's like a waiting list?
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| 13:41 | Bertl | yes
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| 13:42 | BogdanXor | how many currently waiting?
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| 13:42 | BogdanXor | also, why would they quit / want refund?
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| 13:43 | Bertl | I have to check, but the number is small .. various reasons, some change their mind, some get into monetary problems and need every cent
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| 13:43 | BogdanXor | ah, cool
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| 13:44 | BogdanXor | what is the probability of doing an indiegogo campaign for the Axiom Gamma?
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| 13:44 | BogdanXor | (seeing that you guys are thinking about it)
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| 13:44 | Bertl | hard to say, but at the moment we focus on the AXIOM Beta
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| 13:44 | BogdanXor | ah, ok
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| 13:45 | Bertl | (and the eco system around it)
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| 13:45 | BogdanXor | I was going to ask if you guys have a repo for Axiom Gamma (as I only saw the Beta one), but I assume there might not be one for now - for the reason you just mentioned
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| 13:46 | Bertl | no repo yet, indeed, but the designs are FOSS/OH
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| 13:51 | BogdanXor | my internet seems to have gone away for a few minutes, I probably missed if you guys said anything in the meantime
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| 13:51 | Bertl | no problem, the channel is logged, see irc.apertus.org
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| 13:53 | BogdanXor | what does the OH part stand for?
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| 13:53 | Bertl | Open Hardware
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| 13:53 | BogdanXor | ah
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| 13:53 | BogdanXor | stupid me :)) ofc
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| 13:53 | BogdanXor | and are the designs anywhere public? I think I'm confused :))
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| 13:54 | Bertl | yes, they are
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| 13:59 | tyrone | hmmm the gamma files are now public or when will be the release date?
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| 14:00 | Bertl | they always have been public
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| 14:03 | tyrone | is it on github?
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| 14:03 | BogdanXor | but not on any github repo?
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| 14:03 | Bertl | https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Gamma
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| 14:03 | BogdanXor | I can't seem to find it on github anyways
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| 14:04 | Bertl | no, not on github
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| 14:04 | Bertl | (at least not yet)
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| 14:05 | BogdanXor | ok, cool
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| 14:05 | BogdanXor | so how could I help? what info do you require from me (if any)?
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| 14:05 | BogdanXor | also, where should I sign up for the waiting list?
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| 14:05 | tyrone | just checking looks nice :-)
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| 14:06 | Bertl | BogdanXor: you can mostly help with HDL and hardware if you like to
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| 14:06 | BogdanXor | yep, that's what I was thinking about
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| 14:06 | Bertl | for the waiting list, just send me an email that you're interested and I'll add you to the list
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| 14:09 | Bertl | the HDL code we are using for the Beta is roughly the same we developed for the AXIOM Alpha, so a major rewrite is in order (sooner or later) to unleash the full power of the device
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| 14:12 | BogdanXor | I've applied for an account, so I can contact you. Herbert Pötzl, I presume?
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| 14:14 | Bertl | correct :)
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| 14:55 | BogdanXor | not the first world problem, but your website seems kind of weird when it comes to login / password reset / logout
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| 14:55 | Bertl | yeah, it's not the only weird thing ... complaints go to se6astian (when he's around or via e-mail :)
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| 14:57 | BogdanXor | ok, whatevs, can't reset my password because I can't find the way to log out :)) - so I will just use the email-based login whenever needed
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| 15:48 | Bertl | hmm, okay, just checked, the logout option is on the top right and it works here
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| 22:24 | Bertl | back now ...
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