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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2016/09/26

Timezone: UTC


00:43
troy_s
Bertl_oO: How goes?
00:49
Bertl_oO
hey troy_s! LTNS!
00:50
Bertl_oO
it goes slowly but steady ...
00:50
troy_s
Bertl_oO: How have you been sir? Taming that nasty ass sensor yet?
00:50
Bertl_oO
didn't do much work on the sensor yet, mostly design and testing for assembly
00:54
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Has there been any motion on that front or just that goofy fakery of dark mumbo jumbo massaging numbers alchemy?
00:55
Bertl_oO
I don't think so, but you'd have to check with se6astian (who is currently away, despite the nick)
00:57
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Lots of downward pressure in the 1500$ class. Hell even Ursa is downward pressure.
00:57
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Will be interesting to see where this project goes.
00:58
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Have you dropped that godforsaken idiocy of DNG yet or is there a cult of dummy that still pushes for it?
00:58
Bertl_oO
there is a tool to convert the raw images to DNG .. some folks compile it for the camera or use it on their laptop
01:02
Bertl_oO
how are your plans in the future? still going to take the easy route and hide under a rock or actually plan to start doing some serious work for the project? ;)
01:04
intracube
Bertl_oO: troy_s has already told me his interest in the BM Ursa :P
01:06
Bertl_oO
yeah, probably a lost cause (to the BM price dumping)
01:06
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Not sure what serious work is. If you and I and Gabe and the lot sit in a room, then I'm all up. Grab us a DSC and lets go. If it involves floating around the rubbish of flotsam and jetsam junk that no post production pipeline gives a rats ass about, then not so much.
01:06
intracube
hot pixels and all
01:06
troy_s
Bertl_oO: The whole DNG thing is *such* a fools errand. But I know that in your head you already know that.
01:08
Bertl_oO
I've never pushed DNG but I have no problems with folks working on that ... in contrast to proprietary systems, nobody has to use this or that 'feature'
01:09
Bertl_oO
regarding 'sit in a room', we can arrange that, virtually and physically if you like to travel (or we find the budget to travel to you)
01:11
Bertl_oO
hell, if it means that you start doing serious work, I'll probably pay for the trip myself
01:12
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Have you heard from Gabe lately?
01:12
Bertl_oO
he got his Beta and went on a photo journey (IIRC)
01:13
Bertl_oO
did some work with preview via Android and such, but I haven't seen anything yet
01:14
troy_s
Hrm.
01:14
troy_s
I forgot who else was hammering on the colorimetry... it was irieger?
01:15
Bertl_oO
yes, Ingmar was doing some work on that
01:15
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Has he been active?
01:15
Bertl_oO
we still have his config file for the sensor on each and every Beta :)
01:16
Bertl_oO
It was mostly summer season the last few months with everybody going on vacation
01:17
Bertl_oO
so no, I haven't heard much from anybody around the world
01:17
troy_s
Bad luck.
01:17
troy_s
Any other progress on any other fronts?
01:18
troy_s
intracube: Oops. Missed your messie. How you doing P?
01:18
Bertl_oO
but I think it will get better now ...
01:19
troy_s
Bertl_oO: What's quite interesting was the similar rubbish the BM cameras were doing with those skewed pixels in the higher end. Biasing the highlights. Were you ever able to get the sensor to be less irregular up there?
01:19
Bertl_oO
we've done a lot of quality assurance and improved testing as well as manufacturing the Beta ... we also added a few new hardware interfaces and features
01:19
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Or were fool's errands at work? Should have just chopped and moved on to a completely stable, chromaticity correct LUT. (Via DSC chart)
01:20
Bertl_oO
I think we can do a simple 3D LUT for preview (in the Beta) if needed, but we definitely want to keep the raw data (despite the irregularities) for post processing
01:21
Bertl_oO
i.e. you don't want to 'throw away' data unless you really have to
01:23
troy_s
Sure. But that upper end seems...
01:23
troy_s
Not data at all, as you said ages ago.
01:23
Bertl_oO
well, turns out it contains _some_ data after all, just not very usefull data :)
01:24
troy_s
If the BM folks, with a solid bit of capital behind them and some decent imaging engineers can't get it to behave and instead are clinging to the marketing rubbish of stops, I'm pretty convinced that a small team of renegades that are under-funded would probably be prudent to simply chop and focus on post production stability.
01:24
troy_s
(aka *not* data.)
01:24
troy_s
Guessing binned photosites is junk.
01:27
Bertl_oO
well, if you would have looked closer at the response curves Alex sampled from the sensor, you might have seen that it is noisy, but clearly valid data not just random bits
01:27
intracube
Bertl_oO: do you mean the sharp roll-off at the very top end?
01:27
troy_s
Bertl_oO: I don't look closely at any of that.
01:27
troy_s
:)
01:28
troy_s
I'd rather groom the hairs on my back.
01:28
Bertl_oO
intracube: yes, it is a bend/knee, but it keeps going steady
01:28
intracube
did anyone find out if it was to do with the PLR feature or something else?
01:29
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Bottom line, did anyone get stable xy values?
01:29
Bertl_oO
I think it is a hardware limitation, the HDR feature might play a role there as well, but no serious testing has happened yet
01:29
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Without artificially mangling and massaging the data off the sensor?
01:29
intracube
ok
01:30
troy_s
(I'm skeptical given the Ursa has the same gibbled up sensor and the transform yields irregularity there too.)
01:30
Bertl_oO
troy_s: cut at 2400 with gain x1 and you're reasonably linear :)
01:30
troy_s
Bertl_oO: It's not the nonlinearity that is a factor.
01:30
troy_s
Bertl_oO: It's stability.
01:30
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Getting a 3D LUT to properly get *stable* and *accurate* xy values is effectively a trivial thing.
01:31
troy_s
Bertl_oO: But getting stability is the stuff that you can do.
01:31
troy_s
(If that means chop, so be it.)
01:33
Bertl_oO
I think chopping off the upper bit is a quick/cheap way to get there (you can test it easily with the linearization LUTs)
01:33
Bertl_oO
if you want to use the sensor to its full extent, then you have to deal with the few dozen values beyond that bend as well
01:33
Bertl_oO
(definitely not worth the hazzle for a live preview)
01:34
Bertl_oO
s/zz/ss/
01:34
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Not worried about nonlinearity as every single sensor ever made has it.
01:34
troy_s
Bertl_oO: It's that stability factor that you saw *way* back when.
01:35
troy_s
Bertl_oO: Not much has changed since those early runs I'm guessing. It's vaguely what irieger was seeing as well.
01:35
Bertl_oO
please refresh my weak memory ...
01:38
troy_s
Ping me if things shift. Easy to find. Be well sir.
01:38
troy_s
danieel: Greets. Hope you have been well!
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troy_s
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05:21
Topic
apertus° - open source cinema | www.apertus.org | join the apertus° Lab: http://lab.apertus.org/ | IRC Logs available at: http://irc.apertus.org
05:21
se6astian
has set the topic
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07:02
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
07:02
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
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11:20
Bertl_zZ
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11:20
Bertl
morning folks!
11:30
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11:37
tyrone
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11:37
tyrone
hi all
11:44
Spirit532
hi
11:47
Bertl
hey, how's going?
11:51
tyrone
on my side good :-)
11:52
tyrone
and you did you had some holiday after the H2020 marathon?
11:52
Bertl
a little bit of 'home improvement' vacation yes :)
11:52
illwieckz
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11:56
tyrone
at least something that makes the brain fresheee :-)
11:58
tyrone
hey i have read that for the gamma the low volume cost (100 units) is pretty high what's the main reason?
12:04
Bertl
the main reason is that it was not optimized for production, i.e. high number of PCB layers, expensive components and large board areas
12:04
Bertl
the modularity adds a lot of extra cost as well
12:06
Bertl
hey, do you still work with FPGAs? :)
12:07
tyrone
never worked with them only on hobby stage try to play with them :-)
12:08
tyrone
a friend of mine is a prof. dev with fpga.
12:09
Bertl
get him interested in the AXIOM camera then! ;-)
12:09
tyrone
that was his first project after school: https://labs.ti.bfh.ch/gecko/wiki/modules/gecko3main/start
12:10
Bertl
looks nice!
12:10
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12:12
tyrone
i will ask him if he would like to support a open source project....
12:12
Bertl
very appreciated!
12:14
tyrone
i don't know if he has time because his main open source project that he supports is this one: http://de.publicdomainproject.org/index.php/PD:Chronologie_des_Projekts#24._September
12:29
tyrone
btw. where do you have at the moment most resource problem?
12:30
Bertl
still on the hardware and HDL side
12:31
Bertl
despite the fact that we got a lot of Early Betas into developer hands
12:32
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12:33
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BogdanSorlea
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12:33
BogdanXor
neat! :))
12:34
Bertl
welcome BogdanXor!
12:34
BogdanXor
heya
12:34
BogdanXor
I must say I'm intrigued about the project :))
12:34
BogdanXor
do you need FPGA designers?
12:35
BogdanXor
:))
12:35
Bertl
glad to hear! and yes!!! ;)
12:35
BogdanXor
thought so
12:35
Bertl
yeah, you already knew ...
12:35
BogdanXor
maybe - I mean, it's not like there are rivers of FPGA designers out there :))
12:36
BogdanXor
let me just wrap my head around the project a bit more
12:36
Bertl
sure, take your time, if you have any questions, just ask
12:39
BogdanXor
I mean, one question could be: how can I get a Axiom Beta now that the Indiegogo campaign is long over?
12:40
BogdanXor
I so hate myself for not knowing about it earlier :))
12:40
Bertl
hehe, that is probably the simplest to answer
12:41
Bertl
every now and then, there is a voucher holder who wants a refund .. for those we maintain an exchange list, so that folks who are interested in getting a Beta at cost can grab one
12:41
BogdanXor
so there's like a waiting list?
12:41
Bertl
yes
12:42
BogdanXor
how many currently waiting?
12:42
BogdanXor
also, why would they quit / want refund?
12:43
Bertl
I have to check, but the number is small .. various reasons, some change their mind, some get into monetary problems and need every cent
12:43
BogdanXor
ah, cool
12:44
BogdanXor
what is the probability of doing an indiegogo campaign for the Axiom Gamma?
12:44
BogdanXor
(seeing that you guys are thinking about it)
12:44
Bertl
hard to say, but at the moment we focus on the AXIOM Beta
12:44
BogdanXor
ah, ok
12:45
Bertl
(and the eco system around it)
12:45
BogdanXor
I was going to ask if you guys have a repo for Axiom Gamma (as I only saw the Beta one), but I assume there might not be one for now - for the reason you just mentioned
12:46
Bertl
no repo yet, indeed, but the designs are FOSS/OH
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12:51
BogdanXor
my internet seems to have gone away for a few minutes, I probably missed if you guys said anything in the meantime
12:51
Bertl
no problem, the channel is logged, see irc.apertus.org
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12:53
BogdanXor
what does the OH part stand for?
12:53
Bertl
Open Hardware
12:53
BogdanXor
ah
12:53
BogdanXor
stupid me :)) ofc
12:53
BogdanXor
and are the designs anywhere public? I think I'm confused :))
12:54
Bertl
yes, they are
12:59
tyrone
hmmm the gamma files are now public or when will be the release date?
13:00
Bertl
they always have been public
13:03
tyrone
is it on github?
13:03
BogdanXor
but not on any github repo?
13:03
Bertl
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Gamma
13:03
BogdanXor
I can't seem to find it on github anyways
13:04
Bertl
no, not on github
13:04
Bertl
(at least not yet)
13:05
BogdanXor
ok, cool
13:05
BogdanXor
so how could I help? what info do you require from me (if any)?
13:05
BogdanXor
also, where should I sign up for the waiting list?
13:05
tyrone
just checking looks nice :-)
13:06
Bertl
BogdanXor: you can mostly help with HDL and hardware if you like to
13:06
BogdanXor
yep, that's what I was thinking about
13:06
Bertl
for the waiting list, just send me an email that you're interested and I'll add you to the list
13:09
Bertl
the HDL code we are using for the Beta is roughly the same we developed for the AXIOM Alpha, so a major rewrite is in order (sooner or later) to unleash the full power of the device
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BogdanXor
I've applied for an account, so I can contact you. Herbert Pötzl, I presume?
13:14
Bertl
correct :)
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13:55
BogdanXor
not the first world problem, but your website seems kind of weird when it comes to login / password reset / logout
13:55
Bertl
yeah, it's not the only weird thing ... complaints go to se6astian (when he's around or via e-mail :)
13:57
BogdanXor
ok, whatevs, can't reset my password because I can't find the way to log out :)) - so I will just use the email-based login whenever needed
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Bertl
hmm, okay, just checked, the logout option is on the top right and it works here
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Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
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Bertl
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21:24
Bertl
back now ...
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