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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2019/03/26

Timezone: UTC


23:21
Spirit532
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23:23
futarisIRCcloud
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00:19
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araml
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01:25
shivamgoyal
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01:48
krisss
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01:48
krisss
hello sir
01:50
krisss
i went through the project details i am very much intrested to do this project .i will be very much thankfull to you if you will allow me to do this project.
01:55
krisss
hello sir
01:57
Bertl_oO
hey krisss!
01:57
Bertl_oO
did you choose a task and start working on one of the challenges?
01:58
Bertl_oO
check out https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/GSoC_Overview if not
02:00
humbe_coder
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02:01
krisss
live histogram ,wave form ,vector scope- this interests me
02:03
humbe_coder
Hi. I am doing the C++ challenge, can you please clarify if the input image is RGGB or GBRG?
02:04
Bertl_oO
hey humbe_coder!
02:04
krisss
sir i went through the link you shared
02:05
Bertl_oO
humbe_coder: let's think about that a moment, what will happen when you interpret an RG/GB as GB/RG or the other way round
02:05
Bertl_oO
the green will end up on the red and blue channel ... you can also assume that the 'two greens' will be reasonably similar
02:06
Bertl_oO
so how will the picture look like?
02:07
humbe_coder
@Bertl_o0 I think that even if we interpret it the opposite way the output image will stay the same? Is that correct?
02:07
Bertl_oO
krisss: krisss: so finish the challenge task then and let me know when to check your code
02:08
Bertl_oO
humbe_coder: let's assume this is true, what conditions would the image need to satisfy?
02:11
humble_coder
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02:13
krisss
sir these are seems to little bit hard for me what i do
02:13
Bertl_oO
well, in that case you might want to check out for easier projects to work on
02:14
krisss
ok thank you sir
02:14
Bertl_oO
no problem
02:18
krisss
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humble_coder_
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humble_coder
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02:26
humble_coder_
@Bertl On second thought I think that the image will nog stay the same, because if green is interpreted as red n blue then maybe the insity of unknown pixels remain unaffected after demosaicing but the colours of the output image will change, also since there is no header in RAW12 images, how do I find if the image given is RGGB or GBRG
02:27
Bertl_oO
okay, so if it would stay the same, we would have R==G and G==B which also means - assuming that the greens are similar - R==B
02:27
Bertl_oO
so the image would be a pure gray image
02:27
Bertl_oO
this is unlikely but easy to check once you separated the channels
02:28
Bertl_oO
now assuming the image is not a gray image, then when you have the channel order wrong, you will still end up with basically R==B because the greens are similar
02:29
Bertl_oO
and the green channels will differ a lot (because they are actually red and blue)
02:29
Bertl_oO
you result image if you put the channels together will be all purple - green
02:30
Bertl_oO
(which is also easy to verify)
02:31
humble_coder_
but that could only be verified with visual inspection of the image, right? everything will seem okey in code.
02:32
Bertl_oO
correct
02:36
humble_coder_
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humble_coder
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02:42
humble_coder
So I might be testing my code on RGGB image and someone else might test it on GBRG image and get a grey purpleish output. So how could I figure out which type the input image is in the code itself?
02:43
Bertl_oO
no way to do that reliably, but you can assume that we test with images in the same channel order than the example
02:43
Bertl_oO
if you want to add a feature, add an option/switch to select the order
02:45
humble_coder
okey so I take input from console regarding which type the image is?
02:45
Bertl_oO
you can do that, yes
02:46
humble_coder
I think there is an image given in the problem statement of the c++ challenge. Will we be evaluated on that image? if so which type is it?
02:47
Bertl_oO
I don't know, you have to figure that out yourself
02:49
humble_coder
how do I check that? Since there is no header. The simplest way seems to be open it in photoshop and keep zoming in top left corner.
02:49
Bertl_oO
sounds good to me
02:56
humble_coder
Also in the first point of the problem statement its mentioned to me output the intensity values of the first 5x5 tile. So do we have print it on console?
02:56
Bertl_oO
that would be my interpretation of 'output'
02:57
Bertl_oO
of course, you can also 'output' it to a file instead, but that's usually easy to do via redirection
03:01
Jamie
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Jamie
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03:02
humble_coder
so before debayering there will be 9 red pixels amoung the 25 so do I print the insity values of those 9 pixels or the red insity values of all 25 pixels after debayering? also I think that we will get insity values in 12 bit, so do I print the 12 bit values or convert it to 8 bits then print?
03:03
Bertl_oO
questions over questions ... make some sane assumptions and when you cannot decide, just have a chat with BAndiT1983|away when he's around
03:05
humble_coder
ok.. thanks a lot for helping me out.
03:05
Bertl_oO
no problem, have fun!
03:10
humble_coder
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04:04
Alan_
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Alan_
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04:10
Alan_
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04:10
Alan_
Hi,Bertl
04:10
Alan_
read logs , makes sense
04:10
Bertl_oO
hey
04:11
Alan_
I have one more doubt , what perf.c and train.c do?
04:12
Alan_
Snap is for click a pic.
04:12
Bertl_oO
s/doubt/question/
04:12
Alan_
Question ; )
04:12
Bertl_oO
perf tries to figure out the current frame rate
04:12
Alan_
I tried to find on wiki but didn't get much
04:12
Bertl_oO
on input (sensor side) as well as output (hdmi side)
04:13
Bertl_oO
and train does train the LVDS channels (coming from the sensor)
04:13
Bertl_oO
i.e. it adjusts the delay elements so that a test pattern is properly received
04:18
Alan_
Ok and in this sections7.1 https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Beta/Manual#raw_still_image_capture
04:19
Bertl_oO
yes?
04:19
Alan_
In the fabric part whats need to change 12 bit to 18
04:20
Bertl_oO
actually the 18 might be a typo there, let's check with the source :)
04:20
Alan_
And we work directly on the contents we get in memory ,right?
04:21
Bertl_oO
no, it is actually 18bit there (lookup table) as can be seen here:
04:22
Bertl_oO
https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/axiom-beta-firmware/blob/master/peripherals/soc_main/top.vhd (line 715-728)
04:23
Bertl_oO
and I remember now why we used 18bit there, because it perfectly matches the DSP inputs
04:24
Bertl_oO
and yes, T734 works on the data written to DDR memory
04:28
Alan_
Ok i think probably I need to research more on this topic .
04:28
Amaterasu
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04:28
Alan_
Beta gets input from hdmi output?
04:29
Bertl_oO
the input comes from the sensor, the output goes to the HDMI (typically)
04:31
Alan_
Ok , so hdmi output is use to display stuff on camera screen?
04:31
Amaterasu
Can we use ODDR and PLLE2_BASE in the serial to parallel converter in T871 ?
04:31
Bertl_oO
Alan_: yes as well as output the actual image (or to be precise, a 1080p version of it)
04:32
Bertl_oO
Amaterasu: what does the task description say?
04:35
Amaterasu
I mean the task 1 of T871
04:35
Alan_
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04:36
Bertl_oO
where it says: You can use existing hardened units like DDR or SERDES to simplify the task.
04:39
Bertl_oO
just changed that to: You may use existing hardened units like PLL, DDR or SERDES to simplify the task.
04:39
Bertl_oO
(to make it more obvious :)
04:40
Amaterasu
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Alan_
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04:49
BAndiT1983|away
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04:50
Alan__
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04:50
Alan__
Okay bertl thanks, i will read more and come back if have any doubt.
04:51
Alan_
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04:51
Bertl_oO
s/doubt/question/ :)
04:55
Alan__
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04:55
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
04:55
Bertl_oO
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05:31
Alan_
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05:32
Alan_
"cmv_hist3 is not meant to be fully real time capable as it is enough in most cases to calculate a new histogram with every couple of frames captured "
05:33
Alan_
As mentioned in T734 , why isn't have to be real time capable everytime??
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shivamgoyal
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Alan_
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aSobhy
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BAndiT1983
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shivamgoyal
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07:54
comradekingu
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08:02
aSobhy
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09:32
Bertl_zZ
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09:32
Bertl
morning folks!
09:34
Bertl
Alan_: if you manage to _make_ it fast enough to provide a full histogram for every frame that would be awesome!
11:22
ahmed
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11:23
ahmed
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11:23
Guest73675
hi,i am interested in this project very much
11:24
Guest73675
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11:24
Bertl
ahmed: great! best get a proper IRC client then!
12:00
shivamgoyal
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12:02
futarisIRCcloud
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13:04
shivamgoyal
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13:40
Hfuy
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13:40
Hfuy
Hello.
13:40
Bertl
Hey Hfuy!
13:40
Hfuy
Silly question. Can I actually get one of these cameras yet?
13:41
Bertl
that is not a silly question at all and the answer is yes :)
13:41
Hfuy
I notice things like dead pixel correction and colour calibration aren't marked complete yet, though.
13:41
Hfuy
So it presumably isn't usable.
13:42
Bertl
depends on what you want to do ... it is still a developer kit for now, so you have to be prepared for diving in and taking control yourself :)
13:43
Hfuy
When is it expected to be finished?
13:43
Bertl
never
13:43
Bertl
that is part of the idea that it will never become obsolete
13:43
Hfuy
Well, OK, but it has to hit a 1.0 at some point
13:44
Bertl
i.e. there will always be new development and improvements over time, so waiting for a 'finished' product is a bad idea here ...
13:44
Hfuy
Well, sure, but at some point it has to be possible to take it out on set and have it be usable and reliable.
13:44
Bertl
we hope that we get it 'end user ready' with the AXIOM Beta Compact
13:44
Hfuy
How long has it been in progress?
13:45
Bertl
which will probably take another year or so
13:45
Bertl
the basic development has taken less than a year for the dev kit
13:46
Bertl
but the project is running for way longer than that (see history)
13:46
Bertl
you can also check the development status on the web site
13:46
Bertl
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-status
13:46
Hfuy
I was looking on the website for some history info.
13:46
Hfuy
I recall it being talked about years ago.
13:47
Bertl
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-saga-history-article-november-2014
13:47
Hfuy
So in essence it's been in progress four years and there isn't really a usable finished camera.
13:49
Bertl
what exactly are you looking for?
13:54
Hfuy
Well, something I can take out and shoot with.
13:54
Bertl
we definitely did that with the AXIOM Beta dev kit (as you can see with the footage)
13:54
Hfuy
But without dead pixel correction?
13:55
Bertl
something you can easily do in post ... actually it is better to be done in post as you have more control over 'how' to correct dead pixels if there are any
13:58
Hfuy
I don't think people would consider it very complete without those things.
13:58
Bertl
well, that's completely up to people (you) to decide for yourself
13:59
Hfuy
The thing is, if it's a CMV12000, why wouldn't I just buy an Ursa Mini 4K.
13:59
Bertl
there are many folks out there who do not like the 'papering over' basically all proprietary cameras do before they generate 'raw' data
14:00
Hfuy
What do you mean by papering over
14:00
Bertl
modifying the data to make it 'nicer', hiding the imperfections
14:00
Hfuy
Nothing wrong with that, for some value of nicer.
14:01
Bertl
if you do not see any advantage of a completely FOSS/OH camera for you, then by all means, please by a cheap proprietary camera
14:01
Bertl
*buy
14:01
Hfuy
I'm trying to understand what the advantage would be for anyone.
14:01
Bertl
that you have access to things like 'raw data' and you can actually modify how it processes the data
14:02
Bertl
you can also adapt it to your needs and extend it where needed
14:02
Hfuy
I want a hand crank mode.
14:02
Hfuy
Like Kinetta was supposed to have.
14:02
Bertl
you can make that happen quite easily with the AXIOM
14:03
Bertl
just attach a rotary encoder to it and have it control the shutter
14:03
Hfuy
Ha, for some value of "easily." You'd need to be a software engineer with experience of embedded systems development on whatever system you're using, and knowledge of the existing code.
14:03
Bertl
not really, for this you are probably fine with a little python
14:04
Bertl
but you can always hire somebody to implement that for you and it won't cost you an arm and a leg
14:04
Hfuy
Did you look at the Fairchild LTN4625
14:05
Bertl
no, do you have a comprehensive datasheet for it?
14:05
Hfuy
I think the bigger problem may simply be obtaining one.
14:05
Hfuy
I would assume (and it is an assumption) they've probably signed an exclusive with their main cinematography client.
14:06
Hfuy
But it's very capable.
14:06
Bertl
quite possible
14:09
Hfuy
Holy hell. CMV50000.
14:09
Hfuy
Do quite want.
14:09
Hfuy
That'd put you on the map :D
14:11
Bertl
it is already EOL
14:12
Hfuy
Shame.
14:12
Bertl
but it wouldn't be hard to design an AXIOM sensor frontend for it
14:12
Hfuy
Ha. E2V. I live about a mile from that place.
14:13
Hfuy
I'm not sure they really have cinematography sensors, though.
14:13
Bertl
the CMV5k is still available if you are willing to spend the 5-6k
14:13
Hfuy
Low yeilds on something like that.
14:15
intrac_
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14:15
Bertl
yep, always a big problem with large pieces of silicon
14:15
intrac
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14:15
Hfuy
I wonder if you're ever going to get a really modern sensor.
14:15
Hfuy
Some camera manufacturer will always snipe it as an exclusive.
14:16
Bertl
possible
14:18
Hfuy
Oh, well. I've shot Cion. I've seen it all :)
14:23
Bertl
lucky you :)
14:31
Hfuy
It's a painful memory. I don't like to talk about it.
14:31
Hfuy
twitches
14:31
Hfuy
I'm not quite sure how it's possible to get such little dynamic range out of that sensor, but they managed it.
14:42
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
14:53
intrac_
Hfuy: one specific example of where an open source camera has benefits; one of the BlackMagic cameras at launch would only record 16:9 even though the sensor was 4:3 (so the top and bottom of the frame couldn't be captured)
14:53
intrac_
there were requests in the BM forums for this feature, so that people could use anamorphic lenses or shoot open matte
14:54
intrac_
I *think* this may have been added sometime later? but don't quote me on that.
14:54
Hfuy
Which one would that have been?
14:54
Hfuy
The 2.5K possibly.
14:54
intrac_
the camera? not sure, it was a few years back now.
14:54
Hfuy
The thing is, I like the idea of all this open source stuff.
14:55
Hfuy
The problem is none of it has any meaning to anyone unless you are a software engineer. And in this situation, quite a competent software engineer with a lot of knowledge of the systems you're working on.
14:55
Hfuy
Since most people aren't, to most people, open source is pretty much meaningless.
14:55
Hfuy
I don't object to it but you have to admit it doesn't really make much practical difference.
14:56
intrac_
not necessarily, if other people can be encouraged to make a modification then everyone can benefit
14:56
intrac_
it only takes one skilled individual to make the change
14:56
Hfuy
My experience is that FOSS coders work on what interests them, not what interests users.
14:57
Hfuy
And that's fine, people are working for free, they can do what they like.
14:57
Hfuy
But the results for users can be... eh...
14:57
intrac_
in some cases, but some teams have crowd funding drives to add specific features
14:58
intrac_
there's nothing to stop a few people creating a group separate from Apertus, crowdfund, add specific features
14:58
Hfuy
In theory, sure. In reality my experience is that it just doesn't work very well.
14:59
Hfuy
My go-to example is always Blender. Huge amounts of time spent on it, fantasic features, the UX is a complete war crime and I think a lot of the effort is wasted.
14:59
Hfuy
I'm not anti open source but I think it is often very poorly managed.
15:00
intrac_
won't be drawn into Blender UI discussion :)
15:00
Hfuy
I don't blame you.
15:00
intrac_
but I've certainly seen worse from commercial programs
15:00
Hfuy
I think I'd be reasonably comfortable with the idea that Blender's UI is the worst I've ever seen on any piece of software.
15:01
Hfuy
By quite some considerable margin.
15:01
Bertl
most proprietary GUI tools are completely useless
15:01
Hfuy
And I used Real 3D on the Amiga.
15:01
intrac_
I'd go so far as to say open source projects really need a blend of commercial and volunteer input to succeed.
15:01
Bertl
mainly because companies do not spend money on GUI development and testing unless it is essential to the tool
15:02
Hfuy
intrac_: I think they need management. And people who are not being paid do not like being told what to do.
15:02
Hfuy
It's a big problem.
15:02
intrac_
Bertl: hardware isn't covered in the same way as software with GPL, right?
15:03
Bertl
it is Cern OHL in our case
15:03
intrac_
eg, it'd be great if Marvx released their hardware designs for the sensor rotation module
15:04
Bertl
Hfuy: the solution is simple there, no? just pay the developers :)
15:04
intrac_
since there was quite a bit of interest in having the camera body vertically oriented
15:04
intrac_
reference: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Beta/Case_Studies#Mavrx
15:05
Hfuy
Anyway, I'm preparing an article on interesting cameras that never seemed to make it.
15:05
Hfuy
It was suggested that I included Apertus
15:06
intrac_
that would make attaching the camera head-end into a 8mm or Super16 style camera body more practical
15:06
intrac_
Apertus is still here
15:06
Hfuy
It looks like development hell from where I'm sitting.
15:06
intrac_
Hfuy: did you include that 8K camera (from Italy, iirc?)
15:07
Hfuy
Fran? Spain.
15:07
Hfuy
I had one here. I reviewed it. Days before the company went out of business.
15:07
intrac_
yes, Fran
15:07
Hfuy
It was... not... very good...
15:07
intrac_
good candidate there. Philip Bloom also did a review.
15:07
Hfuy
tries to be polite
15:08
Hfuy
I tried not to slag them off too much.
15:08
Hfuy
But really the thing was barely functional.
15:09
Hfuy
So far I have Kinetta (going back a ways,) Fran, Ikonoskop and Digital Bolex. And possibly Cion.
15:09
Hfuy
Some of those did ship and then died.
15:09
intrac_
no idea why they even released it at that stage for review.
15:09
Hfuy
Cion was stillborn.
15:09
intrac_
no sense there at all.
15:09
Hfuy
I wondered that. Presumably they were desperate for money.
15:11
Hfuy
I have some of their monitors, ex demo.
15:11
Hfuy
They're mainly fine.
15:11
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
15:11
Hfuy
Of course, that's just them going to a Chinese manufacturer with a spec list. But they work OK.
15:11
Hfuy
I would point out that Apertus has a better web presence than Cinemartin ever did, and Apertus isn't even a commercial organisation!
15:21
Hfuy
Ha. Bloom got it in the same shabby box I did. I wondered why they wanted it back.
15:22
Hfuy
And yes, the red-branded port cap!
15:51
se6astian|away
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15:51
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
16:40
aSobhy
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17:54
sebix
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18:08
Raghu
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18:09
Raghu
Hi there
18:09
Raghu
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18:10
Bertl
hey Raghu!
18:18
Hfuy
I guess I could write about the axiom camera for one of the places I write for.
18:19
Hfuy
But I'd need one on demo. And I'm not sure if you really have anything finished you could send out?
18:21
intrac_
changed nick to: intrac
18:32
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
18:35
Bertl
We do not 'send out' devices for reviews, but there might be an AXIOM Beta Dev Kit owner in your area you could contact ...
18:40
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
18:40
Hfuy
It might not be a bad idea to put together a demonstration kit that people could use for a while.
18:40
Hfuy
It's tough to write about these things without being hands on.
18:41
se6astian
you are welcome to visit us in Vienna
18:42
Hfuy
Next time I'm in Vienna, I'll give you a shout :)
18:42
se6astian
where are you based?
18:43
Hfuy
London
18:43
Hfuy
Well. Half an hour out of London, but you know.
18:43
se6astian
ah, thats not too far then
18:50
Hfuy
All I know about Vienna is that you can't get a cup of coffee without a glass of water.
18:51
se6astian
sounds like a more thorough Vienna experience is long overdue
18:52
Hfuy
I know someone who was born in Vienna, grew up in the USA and London, and now lives in New York because she says Vienna is boring.
18:52
Hfuy
I have no opinion, but Edith doesn't like it :)
18:53
BAndiT1983
aha, good to know that such people live vienna, so other people can enjoy the city
18:53
BAndiT1983
*leave
18:53
Hfuy
To be fair, I don't think she really lived in Vienna other than a year or two when she was a baby.
18:53
Hfuy
She does like to speak Martian on the phone to her family.
18:54
Hfuy
(Claims it's not German. Sounds like German to me.)
18:55
BAndiT1983
eh, you probably mean Austrian, as the guys in Austria do not like to be called germans
18:55
Hfuy
The language does sound quite a lot like German.
18:57
Hfuy
I'm probably wrong. I do apologise. It's nothing like German :)
19:24
se6astian
this video teaches you the only word you really need to speak Austrian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuXR53ex4iI
19:26
BAndiT1983
funny to see that a non-austrian is explaining :D
19:26
BAndiT1983
was already suspicious because of eastern accent
19:30
Hfuy
Edith gets very upset if I claim her language sounds like German.
19:30
Hfuy
I think it's just German with a dozen extra words, all of which are different types of apple strudel.
20:29
humble_coder
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20:30
humble_coder
Hi guys, anyone around?
20:31
Bertl
yup, what's up?
20:33
humble_coder
I am debayering the CFA using bilinear approach, the red and blue channels seem fine but the green channel has dark pixels in it, also all three channels have significant artifacts
20:34
BAndiT1983
humble_coder: have you considered endianess?
20:36
humble_coder
No I have not, the format is little endian I think. I am reading 8 bits at a time, three times and then performing bitwise operations on them to get intensity values
20:37
BAndiT1983
this is where the artifacts are coming from, you have to do byte swap
20:39
humble_coder
so.. should I convert the little endian input to big endian then perform binary operations on it?
20:39
BAndiT1983
yes
20:40
BAndiT1983
maybe it's also big-endian
20:42
humble_coder
can I mail the link of my code to you?
20:42
BAndiT1983
yes
20:42
humble_coder
email id - *email address removed* ?
20:43
BAndiT1983
yes
21:21
se6astian
off to bed, good night
21:21
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
21:24
Bertl
nn
21:27
humble_coder
BAndiT1983: mail sent, please check
21:28
BAndiT1983
humble_coder: i'm not a fan of archives in mails, because it's not safe, could you please add it to github
21:31
BAndiT1983
about your problems, usual way for this data is to do byte swap, then to can convert each 3 bytes to 2 sensels, as we have 12bit data stored there
21:32
humble_coder
BAndiT1983: sending another mail with github link
21:32
BAndiT1983
if the byte swap is done and data correctly extracted, then the image shouldn't be corrupted, if it is, then check processing path again
21:33
BAndiT1983
will check tomorrow, after work, it's late here and i have to get up early for it
21:33
BAndiT1983
see you
21:33
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away