#apertus IRC Channel Logs

Oh gosh.

C'mon.

There is a monumental gap between OSX and FreeBSD to anyone looking at the situation reasonably

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28operating_system%29

To be blunt

Erf.

I didn't bring up OSX, you did

(so for sure not an example that open source is bad software :)

The point is that "open" (whatever that means) has zero play in terms of mindshare.

that we can agree on, which is very sad, as it to some extent means that people do not value freedom

Freedom too is a useless word.

It is a trade. And a constant one.

So somewhere, the great challenge with a camera has _nothing_ to do with being "open".

you will get punished for it though

There are countless tradeoffs in the Eurowestern democratic models.

But WRT a camera, there is very little to suggest that liberty gives an imager anything. Yet as the caveat.

Tell you what... If you go out and spend say, 3000$ on a camera, another 3000$ on rentals, 2000$ on a location, maybe xxx more on other parts

And the camera doesn't perform, breaks down, doesn't work in a pipeline, etc.

None of which open solve.

so, yes, I agree, if the AXIOM sucks (compared to other cameras), it won't get used by the typical customers of said other cameras

The challenge is to keep AXIOM sustainable, and I think being bluntly realistic is extremely useful to keep those challenges in view.

People _will_ trade freedom, open, and money to get things that fill design context needs.

Yes.

And to a degree, the benchmarks are already in place.

(Which I think is my thesis here.)

Because anyone can borrow the results, but in the end, the source is what is valuable.

morning Bertl :)

good evening

hey there

Bertl: why all the fuzz about 7020 :)

I just wanted to get a working version first

I also noticed that it often reports the network link to be down despite the connection being there (which is bad)

Bertl: i noticed that the "elphel" changes fixed that for me

Huh?

My response was that the 'sell' of the openness is a moot factor.

feel free to improve and incorporate it

Straight up, open / Libre is moot. Doesn't matter the term.

Except not. The structure has to be there.

(among the other bits including ecosystem etc.)

Whatever

we arent using libre

It's junk.

I too dislike technical terms that are just jargon

You are speaking to imagers that give a crap about a camera

This is a constant drone of trying to speak to everyone. Everyone doesn't matter.

Geeks can't shoot

like your average cinematographer instead of your nerdy one

Hardware knowledge folks matter

Geeks don't matter.

Not really

You can have 100 idiots and only one Bertl.

Or xxxx.

Unless the project is fundamentally broken, but i guess then you could point to how beta is beta, and a custom run isnt something everyone jumps on anyhow

well im not bertl, i bought one

You haven't bought anything.

well i funded one

the point is i certainly dont know how to shoot films in a professional manner

but even I try to contribute something

To me its obvious that i shouldnt be cheated out of my freedom, get my security stolen, when i buy a piece of electronics

We take for granted that regular users benefit from using for example VLC instead of itunes, why allow the same mistakes to be made in camera firmware?

Except in terms of cameras, that's hyperbole.

Focus on making the camera A) perform well in the ecosystem, B) is robust (fewer software elements focused on the audience) C) outperforms

A) RED cameras dont work at all in my ecosystem, strike one. B) i already know what i use works, let me use that + make something nice to go with it C) With A in mind this is already moot, i just want something. + for making it supernice

B) Go nuts

Thats a fair and valid example of how foss solves the product A vs product B for someone (me)

But I'm sure it will be great.

Say what?

and math constitutes i still matter

Libre / Open software (and I have been using it for probably close to two decades - 95-96ish)

Plain and simple

And I believe it was Havoc Pennington that posted a wonderful email about why it sucks

When you design for everyone, you design for no one.

No. Open source was a hijacking of the silicon valley types to maximize gain and minimize their costs.

I'd encourage you to read "The Meme Hustler" which nicely and eloquently summarizes the appropriation.

You know how to shoot, you want a tool that does the job. If im correct, that means you could do with just any project

If the price point is important too, then a purely commercial and closed venture would never bring the same to the table

even if you only consider those bits

enlighten me

So for example, the easiest one is something like a camera package, which if you are flying solo, is likely all you have and need (even if you are in a limited audience of single person one-person-army type of efforts)

So that means you have a camera

2) Lenses

Which include

By the time you sum up all of those costs, they are significant.

And in fact the cost of the _camera_ is shamefully small in this bigger picture.

So given the 'ecosystem' holistic view, it is a non-trivial "sale" to have someone use the camera.

And why?

Or having a body die

etc.

Does it matter when you have to go out and shoot? Not at all.

the shooters want something quick and nimble, they love all the things you can do with dslr-ish cameras, they only use the biggest cameras for pro stuff, and follow focus especially

I have extreme trouble believing any of that.

I'll cite actual folks in this forum that have BMCCs and I'll tell you, that the form factor _sucks_

its not bmccs

They bring NOTHING to the table for motion picture work and are a total pain in the ass.

Wonderful for shooting stills.

Horrific.

video versions D5s too

i think so too, but thats not the point

But it is.

I'm not going to say that I can control who something is designed for.

But I _will_ say that the acceptance / uptake of said thing will utterly dependon it.

You honestly think for a second that someone is going to randomly drop about 3500$ on something that isn't quite right?

i do, and you do, but not everyone is fully knowledgable, so we cant be 100% right, and cameras are mostly not 100% for something either

troy_s: none of the 3500 options are

Anyways. This is a rather pointless discussion. All I will say is that the design will shit the bed based on trying to be too many things.

I've seen it happen way too many times around open / Libre projects, and encouraging that sort of view is myopic as hell.

Then its the editors, with their set of tools that they use, the storage guys trying to keep all equipment up to date/ in working order,

Yes

And convenience of use, lugging around cumbersome storage formats is not a pre

pro*

But maybe I live in a closet.

Probably.

None of the rest of the crap.

God in five years I have seen sixteen storage formats.

You can head down to any old post house and probably find a tape format, somewhere, in a dark corner.

Doesn't matter. Moot point.

How what has to be?

How we enlighten people about it, is an avenue for discussion

It simply doesn't speak in any meaningful manner.

It doesn't help you image. It doesn't help you shoot. It doesn't help you do anything.

That was it.

Those who are onboard/hardcore already have no problems finding their way, but currently i think its falling short on the broader mass of people

And that brings other design constraints. Great example... who the hell is going to be spending 4000$ on a handycam?

And those design constraints are going to pull the design.

more many if more people know about it

I really have.

I'd encourage you to.

ok, catch you later :)

What i also think, is that projects like this often are understaffed and not so good at communicating to as many people as their code concerns ideally

hello vladimiroltean!

pardon my clumsyness, but this is the first time i'm using an irc client

I was going to say, no problem at all :)

nah, he is coming back

we had an email exchange

wb vladimiroltean!

comradekingu: I can argue that point and do. It is false. And even if it were true (it isn't - read up on supporting "users" in some projects)

whaaaat?

im specifically talking about home-wip vs. current home, i dont understand where you are coming from

nice to meet you

btw, there are IRC clients for most operating systems, if you want to get rid of the web interface, but for a start it works reasonably well

sorry for being a noob, i guess

and no worries, I'm always googling what troy_s is saying as well

Likewise buddy... Likewise. Not all of us are power engineer nerds.

ok, so is xchat a goot irc client? should i install that?

i use pidgin, you cant get more casual than that

thats multi protocol, so you can do other things too

have a good night sleep then!

welcome aldi_!

it's me again, vladimir

but xchat picked my second display name option

yeah, you can register your 'nick' with NickServ

not now, too much for today!

get used to it, it's a steep learning curve here :)

Don't let it.

Just limp along learning the bare minimum you need.

i sent you guys a mail yesterday

yes, I did :)

but i did watch a video conference with you

excellent

i guess all of you are developers for the project

(which I consider a very good thing)

but obviously, i do have to start from somewhere

in order to get useful

a little bit of everything, altogether kind of none...

my passion for computers certainly started since college, so not a long time ago

very basic...

where i might have a problem is that i'm much more accustomed to verilog rather than vhdl

back then, it basically was a coin flip which one to go with

i hate it that vhdl is case insensitive, and some people simply seem to shout at code

hehe, well, you can use that (the case insensitivity) to your advantage, as I do when coding in VHDL (using it to make things more readable :)

my first adventure inside the "low-level" world (or what i thought back then was low-level) was a tetris game writen in 8086 assembly

sounds interesting, did it work?

but that didn't quite work out so well, because i never got around to writing the code for interfacing the lcd sensor

in simulations, the fsm seemed to work

an atmel avr core written in verilog

so that's about my relevant experience

hah, thanks, you're gentle

but, truth being told, i was thinking earlier today, when i was reading through the cmosis datasheets, that i really seem to understand the words

yeah, data sheets can be tricky to interpret

oh, great, what program are the pcb's designed in?

well, i don't know, who gets to write them? not the developers?

oh, ok, i've seen eagle schematics before

http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/

wow, i think i just found an error!

joking, but these things are huge

i have to start from somewhere

the _all.png are a composite of the traces (without fill)

yup

it's expensive for sure, se6astian|away has the details on that one

i heard you say something about making a socket for it

it is socketed, THT in the v0.12.* and with a ZIF socket in the _zif version

(obviously the ZIF socket is for testing only)

could you please tell me one more thing, are you still using a microzed?

s/base/main/

ok... sorry for asking silly questions, but i guess this is just for debugging purposes only

once the project reaches a final stage, will it have a custom-built fpga board?

i mean, the ethernet connector is kinda big...

yes, that's true... i guess i'll have to start loving cinema cameras

when do you intend to send out the pcb's for printing?

maybe tomorrow

i'm kind of busy this week with homework and college stuff

well, bert, it was really nice to meet you, but unfortunately i have to go to sleep now, tomorrow's a hard day

pleasure was mine. have a good night!

i'm already amazed at what i learned today, i hope the amazement will wear off and i'll start doing some good work :)

oh, i forgot about something

no, not at all, there are many tasks which can be done without any hardware

we had a number of contributions from various folks which didn't have access to the hardware for the AXIOM Alpha

well, i'm not sure either, because not having to spend 1500 euros can't be a bad thing, but on the other hand, as i told you in the email, i would have liked to double my contribution to the axiom project as my graduation project

so, in the end, i think that i'd like to hear that it's possible to recreate the axiom beta at home, if need be

i.e. that you can build your own

(of course, probably)

silly me

that would have been bad

ok, thanks for spending the time with me

nn