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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/11/25

Timezone: UTC


23:01
troy_s
Oh gosh.
23:01
troy_s
You aren't going to try and sell those two companies as open are you?
23:01
troy_s
C'mon.
23:02
Bertl
no, not at all, but it is a fact that e.g. the kernel and many system tools of MacOS originated in the open source arena
23:02
troy_s
There is a monumental gap between OSX and FreeBSD to anyone looking at the situation reasonably
23:02
Bertl
so if, at all, it would be a good example what good quality open source software is
23:03
Bertl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28operating_system%29
23:04
troy_s
The thesis sucks
23:04
troy_s
To be blunt
23:04
troy_s
"Look open is good because OSX is solid"?
23:04
troy_s
Erf.
23:05
troy_s
Surely there has to be a better pitch.
23:05
Bertl
I didn't bring up OSX, you did
23:05
Bertl
and I don't use OSX for my personal stuff, still, Darwin is open source
23:07
Bertl
(so for sure not an example that open source is bad software :)
23:09
troy_s
I brought up examples contrary to your posit (cars)
23:13
troy_s
The point is that "open" (whatever that means) has zero play in terms of mindshare.
23:14
troy_s
And it certainly cannot be said that "open" is "better". So again, moot points until someone can put the proof in the pudding.
23:14
Bertl
that we can agree on, which is very sad, as it to some extent means that people do not value freedom
23:14
troy_s
Not really.
23:14
troy_s
Freedom too is a useless word.
23:14
troy_s
We aren't free to run around and kill each other. We give up freedoms all over the place.
23:15
troy_s
It is a trade. And a constant one.
23:15
troy_s
(And shifting)
23:15
troy_s
So somewhere, the great challenge with a camera has _nothing_ to do with being "open".
23:15
Bertl
well, no, actually you are free to run around and kill
23:15
Bertl
you will get punished for it though
23:15
troy_s
You get my point darnit.
23:16
troy_s
There are countless tradeoffs in the Eurowestern democratic models.
23:16
Bertl
we can agree that I value my freedom, and you trade it in a blink for a minor advantage :)
23:17
troy_s
But WRT a camera, there is very little to suggest that liberty gives an imager anything. Yet as the caveat.
23:17
troy_s
Grossly over simplistic.
23:18
troy_s
Tell you what... If you go out and spend say, 3000$ on a camera, another 3000$ on rentals, 2000$ on a location, maybe xxx more on other parts
23:18
Bertl
we don't know yet, but from the folks interested in the AXIOM so far, I can tell that they often base their interest on the implications the open hardware/software platform has
23:18
troy_s
And the camera doesn't perform, breaks down, doesn't work in a pipeline, etc.
23:18
troy_s
Are you telling me that _those_ are not real front-facing issues?
23:18
troy_s
None of which open solve.
23:18
troy_s
Nor helps arguably.
23:18
Bertl
so, yes, I agree, if the AXIOM sucks (compared to other cameras), it won't get used by the typical customers of said other cameras
23:19
Bertl
doesn't mean that it won't get used by a completely different audience (despite sucking)
23:19
troy_s
The challenge is to keep AXIOM sustainable, and I think being bluntly realistic is extremely useful to keep those challenges in view.
23:19
Bertl
note that I still think we can have the cake and eat it :)
23:19
troy_s
People _will_ trade freedom, open, and money to get things that fill design context needs.
23:19
Bertl
i.e. build a FOSS/OH camera whoch doesn't suck :)
23:20
troy_s
Yes.
23:20
troy_s
Sustainability is key.
23:20
troy_s
And to a degree, the benchmarks are already in place.
23:22
troy_s
To an extent the ground is level with sensor for sensor in some cameras, so the chance to be "better" comes down to people.
23:22
troy_s
(Which I think is my thesis here.)
23:22
troy_s
The project is likely better to bet heavy on the people and celebrate the individuals (you and seb) that pushed the rock up the hill.
23:23
troy_s
Because anyone can borrow the results, but in the end, the source is what is valuable.
23:27
Bertl
then let's hope we are strong enough to push it up all the way
00:42
fsteinel_
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00:45
fsteinel
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00:59
fsteinel_
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01:31
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
01:31
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
02:58
mooseboobs
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09:19
intracube_afk
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09:19
se6astian|away
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10:23
se6astian
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11:33
se6astian|away
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11:43
Bertl_zZ
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11:43
Bertl
morning folks!
12:09
intracube
morning Bertl :)
12:09
se6astian
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12:50
MikeA
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12:57
MikeA
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14:19
mooseboobs
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15:57
se6astian|away
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16:02
se6astian
good evening
16:25
davidak
hi se6astian
16:31
se6astian
hey there
16:32
se6astian
how is it going?
16:54
davidak1
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17:15
Bertl
skinkie: ping?
17:15
se6astian
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17:32
se6astian|away
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17:38
g3gg0
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18:27
slikdigit
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18:27
slikdigit
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18:27
slikdigit
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18:30
slikdigit
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18:49
skinkie
Bertl: so the freaking thing just boots without any hassle?
18:50
skinkie
Bertl: why all the fuzz about 7020 :)
18:50
Bertl
that is 7010 atm :)
18:50
Bertl
I just wanted to get a working version first
18:51
Bertl
I've noticed that u-boot tries to fetch the environment from SD as well (which is a good idea)
18:52
Bertl
I also noticed that it often reports the network link to be down despite the connection being there (which is bad)
18:52
Bertl
re-executing dhcp usually makes it work
19:04
skinkie
Bertl: i noticed that the "elphel" changes fixed that for me
19:04
Bertl
ah? care to elaborate?
19:55
slikdigit
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slikdigit
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slikdigit
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20:03
comradekingu
troy_s: even if price point is the driving factor, it is not the key difference of the project. Anyone can sell cheap, not everyone does so the right way
20:03
troy_s
Huh?
20:03
troy_s
Where did I say cheap was a factor?
20:04
troy_s
My response was that the 'sell' of the openness is a moot factor.
20:04
comradekingu
Bertl: the comparison is a very nice idea, maybe it can be added to the slides
20:05
Bertl
feel free to improve and incorporate it
20:05
comradekingu
i specifically avoided the word open, and tried not to flamewar the issue
20:05
troy_s
Straight up, open / Libre is moot. Doesn't matter the term.
20:06
comradekingu
troy_s: free means more avilability in terms of deciding what your pipeline is
20:06
troy_s
Except not. The structure has to be there.
20:07
troy_s
And again, my point was that the "chance" of things isn't a factor when considering imaging equipment.
20:07
troy_s
(among the other bits including ecosystem etc.)
20:07
comradekingu
troy_s: the term does matter, open means "could be good, implied good, in reality that some software can be seen"
20:07
troy_s
Whatever
20:07
troy_s
As someone that actually uses cameras _and_ actually gives a damn about Libre, the term is meaningless, empty, and junk.
20:08
comradekingu
we arent using libre
20:08
troy_s
I don't care which one you use.
20:08
troy_s
It's junk.
20:08
comradekingu
not if you explain it in a way people understand
20:08
comradekingu
I too dislike technical terms that are just jargon
20:09
troy_s
You aren't speaking to people
20:09
troy_s
You are speaking to imagers that give a crap about a camera
20:09
comradekingu
im trying anyhow
20:09
troy_s
This is a constant drone of trying to speak to everyone. Everyone doesn't matter.
20:10
comradekingu
nono, im arguing that geeks are already in, what matters is spreading the userbase to those we think might benefit, but historically hasnt been in
20:10
troy_s
Geeks can't shoot
20:10
troy_s
So geeks are worthless.
20:10
comradekingu
like your average cinematographer instead of your nerdy one
20:10
troy_s
Software knowledge folks matter
20:10
troy_s
Hardware knowledge folks matter
20:10
comradekingu
kubric isnt a geek?
20:10
troy_s
Geeks don't matter.
20:11
comradekingu
whatever the demographic is, spreading it by encompassing more ppeople is good
20:11
troy_s
Not really
20:11
troy_s
More is not more.
20:11
troy_s
You can have 100 idiots and only one Bertl.
20:11
troy_s
Or 1000.
20:11
troy_s
Or xxxx.
20:11
troy_s
Culture matters more than numbers.
20:11
comradekingu
Unless the project is fundamentally broken, but i guess then you could point to how beta is beta, and a custom run isnt something everyone jumps on anyhow
20:11
troy_s
(hence why there have been a few discussions about trying to get more women involved. It matters. It matters early.)
20:12
comradekingu
well im not bertl, i bought one
20:12
troy_s
Bought what?
20:12
troy_s
You haven't bought anything.
20:12
comradekingu
if you sell thousand axiom betas total, im still a percentile
20:12
comradekingu
well i funded one
20:12
comradekingu
and intend to pay for it
20:14
comradekingu
the point is i certainly dont know how to shoot films in a professional manner
20:14
Bertl
and we are happy that you backed the campaign, btw :)
20:14
comradekingu
but even I try to contribute something
20:15
comradekingu
We cant rely on me for the project, but if you put the bar at bertl, then you have 1 bertl with his 1 camera prototype, and nobody else gets much hands-on
20:16
comradekingu
To me its obvious that i shouldnt be cheated out of my freedom, get my security stolen, when i buy a piece of electronics
20:17
comradekingu
Its equally obvious that someone not in the know would benefit on an equal footing at some level, which is why its nice to spread the project
20:19
comradekingu
We take for granted that regular users benefit from using for example VLC instead of itunes, why allow the same mistakes to be made in camera firmware?
20:19
comradekingu
And yes, apertus is currently very "pro" centric, but some professional enterprises are 100% foss, some are 0%
20:19
troy_s
Except in terms of cameras, that's hyperbole.
20:20
comradekingu
no, cameras of today are security, privacy and sanity thiefs
20:20
troy_s
Focus on making the camera A) perform well in the ecosystem, B) is robust (fewer software elements focused on the audience) C) outperforms
20:20
troy_s
that's about all the rest there is to it
20:22
comradekingu
A) RED cameras dont work at all in my ecosystem, strike one. B) i already know what i use works, let me use that + make something nice to go with it C) With A in mind this is already moot, i just want something. + for making it supernice
20:22
troy_s
A) You don't matter.
20:22
troy_s
B) Go nuts
20:22
troy_s
C) Meaningless.
20:22
comradekingu
Thats a fair and valid example of how foss solves the product A vs product B for someone (me)
20:23
troy_s
I'm not sure that design works that way
20:23
troy_s
But I'm sure it will be great.
20:23
comradekingu
sosiology does
20:23
troy_s
Say what?
20:23
troy_s
Sociology?
20:23
comradekingu
and math constitutes i still matter
20:24
comradekingu
I would venture a guess that a large percentage of buyers werent otherwise looking for a cinema camera
20:24
troy_s
Libre / Open software (and I have been using it for probably close to two decades - 95-96ish)
20:24
troy_s
sucks at design.
20:24
troy_s
Plain and simple
20:24
comradekingu
And the home base is very much linux / hardware / software people
20:24
troy_s
And I believe it was Havoc Pennington that posted a wonderful email about why it sucks
20:24
troy_s
and it comes down to design and audience
20:24
troy_s
When you design for everyone, you design for no one.
20:25
comradekingu
troy_s: you imply that libre is the same as open source (it isnt) and/or that either of them by neccesity is for everyone, when thats not the case
20:25
troy_s
No. Open source was a hijacking of the silicon valley types to maximize gain and minimize their costs.
20:26
slikdigit
left the channel
20:26
troy_s
I'd encourage you to read "The Meme Hustler" which nicely and eloquently summarizes the appropriation.
20:27
comradekingu
ok, lets turn the table and assume you are more of a standard customer
20:27
comradekingu
You know how to shoot, you want a tool that does the job. If im correct, that means you could do with just any project
20:28
troy_s
Correct.
20:28
comradekingu
If the price point is important too, then a purely commercial and closed venture would never bring the same to the table
20:28
troy_s
Not just about any, but there are a few options.
20:28
comradekingu
even if you only consider those bits
20:28
troy_s
That's not exactly correct.
20:28
comradekingu
enlighten me
20:29
troy_s
When considering prices, you have to consider the overall costs of attempting to craft imaging.
20:29
troy_s
So for example, the easiest one is something like a camera package, which if you are flying solo, is likely all you have and need (even if you are in a limited audience of single person one-person-army type of efforts)
20:29
comradekingu
is anyone pulling that off without any community effort?
20:29
troy_s
So that means you have a camera
20:29
troy_s
1) Camera
20:29
troy_s
2) Lenses
20:29
troy_s
3) Accessories
20:30
troy_s
Which include
20:30
troy_s
follow focus, matte boxes, glass (filters), remote FIZ units, etc.
20:30
troy_s
By the time you sum up all of those costs, they are significant.
20:30
troy_s
Even for rental.
20:30
troy_s
And in fact the cost of the _camera_ is shamefully small in this bigger picture.
20:31
troy_s
But the gravity of a decision to _use_ a particular camera is tremendous.
20:31
troy_s
So given the 'ecosystem' holistic view, it is a non-trivial "sale" to have someone use the camera.
20:31
troy_s
If I were to say, give you 5000-10000$ to make a short video for me, what tool you pick?
20:31
troy_s
And why?
20:32
troy_s
So the idea of 'low cost' cannot be considered without zooming out and seeing the holistic costs, which also come with things like support etc.
20:32
troy_s
Or having a body die
20:32
troy_s
Can you get another one quickly?
20:32
troy_s
etc.
20:33
troy_s
Does "open" even factor into any of that stress at any point for a shooter? Nope.
20:33
troy_s
Does it matter when you have to go out and shoot? Not at all.
20:38
comradekingu
ok, here is a consideration from where i work
20:39
comradekingu
the shooters want something quick and nimble, they love all the things you can do with dslr-ish cameras, they only use the biggest cameras for pro stuff, and follow focus especially
20:40
troy_s
Right. Stop.
20:40
troy_s
I have extreme trouble believing any of that.
20:40
troy_s
I really do.
20:40
troy_s
I'll cite actual folks in this forum that have BMCCs and I'll tell you, that the form factor _sucks_
20:41
troy_s
It is _not_ useful to shooting handheld among other things.
20:41
comradekingu
its not bmccs
20:41
troy_s
DSLRs (of which I have shot plenty) suck as well.
20:41
troy_s
They bring NOTHING to the table for motion picture work and are a total pain in the ass.
20:41
comradekingu
its canon D5 camera versions and C300-2s, some gopros etc
20:41
troy_s
Wonderful for shooting stills.
20:41
troy_s
Yes. Horrific form factors.
20:41
troy_s
Horrific.
20:41
troy_s
Absolutely shudderingly crap
20:41
comradekingu
video versions D5s too
20:42
troy_s
SLR form factors are _wonderful_ for stills, Absolute crap for every other damn thing involving motion picture work.
20:42
comradekingu
i think so too, but thats not the point
20:42
troy_s
Handycam pain in the ass.
20:42
troy_s
But it is.
20:42
comradekingu
no
20:42
troy_s
I'm not going to say that I can control who something is designed for.
20:42
comradekingu
people who arent 100% right buy cameras too
20:42
troy_s
But I _will_ say that the acceptance / uptake of said thing will utterly dependon it.
20:42
troy_s
Who the hell cares?
20:42
troy_s
You honestly think for a second that someone is going to randomly drop about 3500$ on something that isn't quite right?
20:43
troy_s
And those that are going to
20:43
comradekingu
i do, and you do, but not everyone is fully knowledgable, so we cant be 100% right, and cameras are mostly not 100% for something either
20:43
troy_s
are going to do so with plenty of caveats as to how it fits into a bigger picture.
20:43
comradekingu
troy_s: none of the 3500 options are
20:43
comradekingu
RED guy even said, we arent interested in semi-pro, why do things almost right
20:43
troy_s
Anyways. This is a rather pointless discussion. All I will say is that the design will shit the bed based on trying to be too many things.
20:44
comradekingu
in his view maybe they make sense, but for me his products are not interesting
20:44
troy_s
I've seen it happen way too many times around open / Libre projects, and encouraging that sort of view is myopic as hell.
20:44
comradekingu
troy_s: i agree too, but there are more things to consider for a camera purchase
20:44
comradekingu
Then its the editors, with their set of tools that they use, the storage guys trying to keep all equipment up to date/ in working order,
20:44
troy_s
Not really
20:44
troy_s
Yes
20:45
troy_s
Going to agree on the last point
20:45
comradekingu
And convenience of use, lugging around cumbersome storage formats is not a pre
20:45
troy_s
And that is precisely why I have been a proponent of context, audience, and a holistic view.
20:45
comradekingu
pro*
20:45
troy_s
There are no cumbersome storage formats last I checked
20:45
troy_s
But maybe I live in a closet.
20:45
comradekingu
i think you do
20:45
troy_s
Probably.
20:45
troy_s
I worry about imaging.
20:45
troy_s
None of the rest of the crap.
20:46
comradekingu
There are still tapes at work
20:46
troy_s
God in five years I have seen sixteen storage formats.
20:46
troy_s
Rubbish.
20:46
troy_s
You can head down to any old post house and probably find a tape format, somewhere, in a dark corner.
20:46
comradekingu
They are on the way out, but they are still there (no recording to tape now though)
20:46
troy_s
Doesn't matter. Moot point.
20:47
comradekingu
well, the apertus axiom is what it is, and thats how it has to be
20:47
troy_s
How what has to be?
20:47
troy_s
Egads. I am totally lost now.
20:47
comradekingu
How we enlighten people about it, is an avenue for discussion
20:48
troy_s
This discussion began because I saw your 'redo' of the site, which I merely said "open / free" is a complete junk nonsense thing to even worry about.
20:48
troy_s
It simply doesn't speak in any meaningful manner.
20:48
troy_s
At all.
20:48
troy_s
It doesn't help you image. It doesn't help you shoot. It doesn't help you do anything.
20:48
comradekingu
here is my view, if you can get me onboard, who is quite a way off the hardcore cinematographer persona, then many more people are interested
20:48
troy_s
That was it.
20:49
troy_s
The problem with _that_ vantage is that your audience then evolves away from another audience.
20:49
comradekingu
Those who are onboard/hardcore already have no problems finding their way, but currently i think its falling short on the broader mass of people
20:49
comradekingu
troy_s: no it doesnt
20:49
troy_s
And that brings other design constraints. Great example... who the hell is going to be spending 4000$ on a handycam?
20:49
troy_s
Not many.
20:49
troy_s
And those design constraints are going to pull the design.
20:49
troy_s
yes. Many.
20:49
comradekingu
more many if more people know about it
20:49
troy_s
I've studied design long enough to know how these sorts of minor decisions work out man.
20:49
troy_s
I really have.
20:49
comradekingu
no they arent
20:50
troy_s
I'd encourage you to.
20:50
troy_s
But for now, I must run.
20:50
IoanaC
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20:50
comradekingu
you cant argue both that my pitch doesnt work, and that it simultaniously will bring so many newcomers in that the thing will get watered down
20:50
comradekingu
ok, catch you later :)
20:51
comradekingu
I know a purely theoretical and dull pitch is ok for the usuals, but thats preaching to the choir
20:52
comradekingu
What i also think, is that projects like this often are understaffed and not so good at communicating to as many people as their code concerns ideally
20:53
vladimiroltean
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20:53
Bertl
hello vladimiroltean!
20:54
vladimiroltean
hi!
20:54
vladimiroltean
pardon my clumsyness, but this is the first time i'm using an irc client
20:55
vladimiroltean
left the channel
20:55
Bertl
I was going to say, no problem at all :)
20:55
comradekingu
i wonder if he meant to do that, or if that was his actual attention span
20:55
Bertl
nah, he is coming back
20:56
comradekingu
i think so too
20:56
Bertl
we had an email exchange
20:56
vladimiroltean
joined the channel
20:56
Bertl
wb vladimiroltean!
20:56
comradekingu
welcome back :)
20:56
troy_s
comradekingu: I can argue that point and do. It is false. And even if it were true (it isn't - read up on supporting "users" in some projects)
20:57
troy_s
Newcomers are _worthless_ unto themselves. It is all about culture.
20:57
comradekingu
whaaaat?
20:58
Bertl
vladimiroltean: meet the community :)
20:58
comradekingu
im specifically talking about home-wip vs. current home, i dont understand where you are coming from
20:58
troy_s
Greets vladimiroltean
20:58
vladimiroltean
nice to meet you
20:59
vladimiroltean
currently i'm googling almost every word you're typing
20:59
Bertl
btw, there are IRC clients for most operating systems, if you want to get rid of the web interface, but for a start it works reasonably well
20:59
vladimiroltean
it's going to take a while until i get accustomed
20:59
vladimiroltean
sorry for being a noob, i guess
20:59
troy_s
Indeed. Web based interfaces stink.
21:00
Bertl
and no worries, I'm always googling what troy_s is saying as well
21:00
troy_s
Got to start somewhere.
21:00
troy_s
Likewise buddy... Likewise. Not all of us are power engineer nerds.
21:00
Bertl
indeed :)
21:01
vladimiroltean
ok, so is xchat a goot irc client? should i install that?
21:01
Bertl
check out a few, pick the one you like best
21:01
comradekingu
i use pidgin, you cant get more casual than that
21:02
Bertl
there are text based (no gui) like irssi or bitchx, there are GUI based like pidgin, xchat and many others
21:02
comradekingu
thats multi protocol, so you can do other things too
21:03
comradekingu
i clocked a 12 hour day at work, so i have to go to bed now to get ready for tomrrow
21:03
Bertl
have a good night sleep then!
21:03
aldi_
joined the channel
21:04
Bertl
welcome aldi_!
21:04
aldi_
good night, comradekingu!
21:04
aldi_
it's me again, vladimir
21:04
comradekingu
goodnight
21:04
aldi_
but xchat picked my second display name option
21:05
aldi_
since vladimiroltean was already taken (duh)
21:05
Bertl
yeah, you can register your 'nick' with NickServ
21:05
Bertl
(if it is not already registered)
21:05
aldi_
not now, too much for today!
21:05
Bertl
and then the client can reclaim it anytime
21:06
Bertl
get used to it, it's a steep learning curve here :)
21:06
aldi_
it's already overwhelming for me
21:06
troy_s
Don't let it.
21:06
aldi_
i guess you remember who i am
21:06
troy_s
Just limp along learning the bare minimum you need.
21:06
Bertl
aldi_: yes, I do
21:06
aldi_
i sent you guys a mail yesterday
21:07
aldi_
and herbert answered
21:07
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
21:07
davidak1
left the channel
21:07
Bertl
yes, I did :)
21:07
aldi_
sorry for joining late, but i found out about your project only a few days ago, and haven't had time to dig very deeply
21:08
aldi_
but i did watch a video conference with you
21:08
aldi_
so now i do have a basic idea of what's happening
21:09
Bertl
excellent
21:09
aldi_
well, i would love to get to know you all better
21:09
aldi_
i guess all of you are developers for the project
21:10
Bertl
if you stick around, you will ... it is a very diverse community here
21:10
Bertl
(which I consider a very good thing)
21:10
aldi_
i'd love to chime in as well
21:11
aldi_
but obviously, i do have to start from somewhere
21:11
aldi_
see what i need to learn
21:11
aldi_
in order to get useful
21:11
troy_s
aldi_: What area do you have knowledge in out of curiosity?
21:12
aldi_
a little bit of everything, altogether kind of none...
21:13
aldi_
well, i don't really know
21:13
aldi_
my passion for computers certainly started since college, so not a long time ago
21:14
aldi_
but i do have a basic understanding of hardware, i guess
21:14
aldi_
very basic...
21:16
aldi_
but still, i did understand the technical difficulties that herbert and sebastian presented at the conference
21:17
aldi_
where i might have a problem is that i'm much more accustomed to verilog rather than vhdl
21:28
Bertl
there isn't much difference between both
21:28
Bertl
back then, it basically was a coin flip which one to go with
21:29
Bertl
if you know HDL, it doesn't really matter if you code in Verilog or VHDL
21:30
aldi_
i hate it that vhdl is case insensitive, and some people simply seem to shout at code
21:30
aldi_
they seem to think it makes the hardware work better
21:31
Bertl
hehe, well, you can use that (the case insensitivity) to your advantage, as I do when coding in VHDL (using it to make things more readable :)
21:33
aldi_
well, since troy_s asked about my experience, i guess i could relate about that a bit
21:34
aldi_
my first adventure inside the "low-level" world (or what i thought back then was low-level) was a tetris game writen in 8086 assembly
21:35
aldi_
then i tried to write the same program in verilog, basically creating an asic that can play tetris
21:36
Bertl
sounds interesting, did it work?
21:36
troy_s
Bertl: See Bertl ? Don't ever say that what I type needs googling. I rest my case sir.
21:36
aldi_
but that didn't quite work out so well, because i never got around to writing the code for interfacing the lcd sensor
21:36
Bertl
troy_s: maybe he googled :)
21:37
aldi_
in simulations, the fsm seemed to work
21:37
aldi_
and then i started another hardware design project
21:37
aldi_
an atmel avr core written in verilog
21:38
aldi_
it's not yet complete, but i learned a lot from it
21:38
aldi_
so that's about my relevant experience
21:38
Bertl
sounds great!
21:39
aldi_
hah, thanks, you're gentle
21:39
Bertl
btw, right now, the most important part, if you want to help out, is checking the recent Beta PCB designs for errors before we submit them to OSHpark
21:40
aldi_
but, truth being told, i was thinking earlier today, when i was reading through the cmosis datasheets, that i really seem to understand the words
21:40
aldi_
had i read the same pages two years earlier, i think i would've started crying
21:41
Bertl
yeah, data sheets can be tricky to interpret
21:41
Bertl
(or even understand)
21:41
aldi_
oh, great, what program are the pcb's designed in?
21:41
Bertl
and they are usually wrong and full of errors :)
21:41
aldi_
well, i don't know, who gets to write them? not the developers?
21:42
Bertl
the designs are currently done with Eagle, you can grab a free (as in beer) version for most operating systems
21:42
aldi_
oh, ok, i've seen eagle schematics before
21:42
aldi_
yeah, i get your point, free as in beer, not free speech
21:42
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/
21:43
Bertl
specifically the http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/axiom_beta_sensor_cmv12000_v0.12.sch
21:43
aldi_
wow, i think i just found an error!
21:44
Bertl
let's hear!
21:44
aldi_
joking, but these things are huge
21:44
Bertl
the *.pdf are pdf versions of the schematic
21:44
aldi_
i have to start from somewhere
21:45
aldi_
at the moment i don't even know the block structure of the project
21:45
Bertl
the _all.png are a composite of the traces (without fill)
21:46
aldi_
so you're using the cmv12000, i was wondering
21:46
Bertl
yup
21:46
aldi_
how much is the cmv200000?
21:46
Bertl
it's expensive for sure, se6astian|away has the details on that one
21:48
aldi_
sorry, i can't tell from the board, is the sensor a bga mount, or is it socketed?
21:48
aldi_
i heard you say something about making a socket for it
21:48
aldi_
to avoid soldering
21:48
Bertl
it is socketed, THT in the v0.12.* and with a ZIF socket in the _zif version
21:49
aldi_
which is a great idea, in my opinion (i suck at soldering)
21:49
Bertl
(obviously the ZIF socket is for testing only)
21:50
aldi_
ok, that's great
21:55
aldi_
could you please tell me one more thing, are you still using a microzed?
21:55
Bertl
yes, the MicroZed is the base platform, we will also support the PicoZed and the Parallella
21:56
Bertl
s/base/main/
21:56
g3gg0
left the channel
21:57
aldi_
ok... sorry for asking silly questions, but i guess this is just for debugging purposes only
21:57
Bertl
there are no silly questions :)
21:57
aldi_
once the project reaches a final stage, will it have a custom-built fpga board?
21:58
Bertl
the AXIOM Beta, no, the AXIOM Gamma, most likely
21:58
aldi_
i mean, the ethernet connector is kinda big...
22:00
Bertl
movie camera folks love big :)
22:01
aldi_
yes, that's true... i guess i'll have to start loving cinema cameras
22:02
Bertl
but it isn't hard to desolder the ethernet jack btw
22:02
aldi_
when do you intend to send out the pcb's for printing?
22:02
Bertl
in the next days
22:03
Bertl
maybe tomorrow
22:03
aldi_
oh, sorry, but i don't know if i can help checking for bugs this time
22:03
aldi_
i'm kind of busy this week with homework and college stuff
22:04
Bertl
no problem
22:06
aldi_
well, bert, it was really nice to meet you, but unfortunately i have to go to sleep now, tomorrow's a hard day
22:06
aldi_
i sure hope we keep in touch and i can be of help soon
22:06
Bertl
pleasure was mine. have a good night!
22:06
aldi_
bye, troy_s, bye, everyone!
22:08
aldi_
i'm already amazed at what i learned today, i hope the amazement will wear off and i'll start doing some good work :)
22:08
aldi_
left the channel
22:09
vladimiroltean
oh, i forgot about something
22:09
vladimiroltean
will i have to buy all the hardware in order to participate in the project?
22:10
Bertl
no, not at all, there are many tasks which can be done without any hardware
22:11
vladimiroltean
that's nice to hear, but can you be a little more specific?
22:12
Bertl
we had a number of contributions from various folks which didn't have access to the hardware for the AXIOM Alpha
22:12
Bertl
not sure what you want to hear though, so maybe reformulate the question
22:15
vladimiroltean
well, i'm not sure either, because not having to spend 1500 euros can't be a bad thing, but on the other hand, as i told you in the email, i would have liked to double my contribution to the axiom project as my graduation project
22:15
vladimiroltean
and, having said that, it would've been nice to have something to show people
22:17
vladimiroltean
so, in the end, i think that i'd like to hear that it's possible to recreate the axiom beta at home, if need be
22:18
Bertl
yes, definitely that's one of our objectives
22:18
Bertl
i.e. that you can build your own
22:18
vladimiroltean
any soldering involved?
22:18
vladimiroltean
(of course, probably)
22:18
Bertl
yes, I was going to mention that, you will need to solder for that :)
22:19
vladimiroltean
silly me
22:19
vladimiroltean
but still, i find that reasonable, as long as the sensor is not a bga
22:19
vladimiroltean
that would have been bad
22:20
Bertl
no, all sensors we are considering so far are µPGA
22:22
vladimiroltean
ok, thanks for spending the time with me
22:23
vladimiroltean
this time i really have to go, good night!
22:23
Bertl
nn
22:25
vladimiroltean
left the channel
22:26
IoanaC
left the channel