#apertus IRC Channel Logs

morning folks!

I left a small wall of text in the logs, have any opinion about that?

yep, reading up now ...

we have a sensor frontend for the CMV2k in the works, and the 7010 would work with our design as well, except that some of the high speed output lanes are missing

so probably the simplest approach for you would be to help with/work on the CMV12k frontend, unless you have other requirements

If I had the hardware infront of me, I could put hundreds of hours of work into it, and the only way to get cheap hardware is to use my combination.

The uppermost limit is around $600

Not at all!

I could put the sensor on one side of the board, and the missing interfaces(such as SDI, etc.) on the other side as a double-sided load

the AXIOM Beta boards you can get for about $99 if you manage to sell the other two copies (OSHpark sells you 3 boards of each)

OSHPark is a little expensive, I will probably be going with macrofab or directly to China to dirtypcbs

well, it shouldn't be too hard to find something, we have taken good care to keep it simple

The amount of HDL files is intimidating though D:

Do you guys have any CMV2k sensors and/or microzeds on hand?

does it? we are shipping developer kits every week now

CMV2k we have some for testing

When will the 2k be available?

as soon as we finish the CMV2k sensor frontend I'd say

What is left to do? PCB design?

Totally different packages & pinouts though

drop-in replacement

though I am not sure why you would want to shoot 2048x2048 in a funny square format

maybe for astronomy?

and they are noisy with very long exposures

not really that easy

the CMV2k/4k comes in different packages

well, yeah

that would give way for a hole and a cooling block to be stuck to the sensor from the back

another option for the CMV4k specifically is to cool 'around' the sensor

so that might work as well

unless you want to thermally insulate half the camera

it is not that the sensor gets hot like a CPU or FPGA

i.e. it is more a question of constant cooling

but it is nice to see that mouser stocks the Cmosis chips

the price bites a little, especially for someone like me

definetly less than mine

and that's a 22 euro monthly limit

but let's check and see what we can do

KiCad, just switched from Eagle

well, that's almost perfect, we have most designs still in Eagle with the plan to transition to KiCad

I'd like to, but I'm a little hesitant D:

That is, I can't pay for a copy of the end product

I thought you planned to build one?

so you plan to do your own design based on the CMV2k ... well that's fine for us too

as I said, the boards will cost you about 100 USD at OSHpark (i.e. all of them) if you manage to sell the other two copies, they might cost you even less in china

correct, but you won't get around most of the parts anyway

Well, which ones can I not populate?

probably the routing fabric FPGAs (lattice MachXO2)

speaker, PCIe interface

(doesn't make sense on the 7010 anyway)

Well, it seemed a little redundant

Having FPGAs connect to another FPGA

well, the Zynq has very limited IOs

for the shields and plugin modules we use the Lattice FPGAs to handle low speed GPIOs

that's what I'm saying :)

hey tres!

engage and contribute! :)

And of course no internal recording

both are huge projects on their own and there are readily available solutions out there

recording 4k raw is not an easy task

Or is the FPGA just not powerful enough?

There are industry-standard mediums that allow for 4k raw recording

lol

But they do work

it might work for lower frame rates

$9915 for a 1TB drive

Does it not?

not the 7010 and not the 7020

yep, so you need to add another FPGA

stick a computer in there

It will solve all your problems

Ah. The 7015 and 7030 have transceivers.

but it requires a high speed interface to said computer, which probably would be PCIe

or CXP

lol

and they record 4k

what is your compressions ration?

0

tres: with raw you always have to assume 1:1

oh

the zynq devices are all pin-compatible

add some wires for the MGTs :)

Those are 6 layer +

you cant use Kicad

no more oshpark

why do you say that

who cares

:^)

Bertl, you can simulate impedance of traces in Kicad?

trace width

you can easily measure it on a test PCB

Kicad does length matching

I think kicad does calculate impedance

that too

for this/?

there are also good tools to calculate the impedance beforehand

and then there's that

also 4 layers are enough to get good controlled impedance with a careful design

recording would be a good idea

maybe available only with lower speeds

Its cheaper and easier

Yes

we care about fair labour and safe working environments

lol

a 14-layer 5x5cm board

I'd make a blinkenlight.

here , you just do whats the cheapest and most economical

India

I think the same story follows in USA

But when you have volume and need to ship somethihng to customers

and you are competing on price

If I spend 1 dollar more on my product

so 4USD

Thats the gebral rule of thumb

retail fo r4x

retail for 4y

don't you see the flaw in what you are saying here?

why the flaw?

you are basically saying, for each dollar I pay more in production, I _have_ to charge 3 more in retail

i.e. one chip goes up by one dollar - *bang* I have to charge 4 dollar more

for price sensitive goods

this is how it works

:-)

thats not what i do

but as I said, there is no logical explanation for it

nope!

you can't really eat it

maybe

when you actually have to pay and get paid

tres, think about it

I guess I have to give up

I wouldn't

I am not talking about niche products

I work on Ip cameras

they won't be a niche hipster toy

and if my bare BOM costs are about 20USD

its the only way I will make back what I put in

let's keep it civilized

sell for enough to sleep, pay the workers, and have a bit left for R&D

it's the best way

people are hungry for money

back to recording

but that's what Sony does

we have an unused SD card

you can write with up to 25MB/s to it

though for FHD, the CMV2k, that would be acceptable, maybe

I didn't look into it - is slow(er) SATA possible using the 7010 or 7020?

Commercial SSDs are relatively cheap

we have tested HDMI out up to 150MHz pixel rate

oh that's plenty

one complication with sata is the OOB signalling

so definiteyl needs testing

typing with a bunch of Beta boards on my keyboard :)

Do you assemble them yourself in the lab, or using a fab?

Well, if you have any dev kits... yeah, you don't, the board isn't developed yet

it would be simpler than the HDMI plugin

No, I was thinking of assembling everything myself, reducing labor costs and price, but you do not have the CMV2k board yet

oh, I see a bodge! :P

we are at v0.8 at the moment

new pictures should be coming soon though, I sent a few modules to the photo session recently

se6astian: how many CMV2k do we have?

then you probably have to pay us a visit :)

And I think my schengen has expired D:

They won't, I have a few tricks

with additional risk if it gets lost

But if you ship tracked, it won't get lost

What I wanted to say, if I could buy the sensor at a discount from you instead, I could skip the OSHPark or china PCB fab, and just order a set here, with a quick turnaround(less than a week)

good morning

morning to you too

I guess I'll just have to wait until I get the money to buy the parts from retailers

microzeds are out of stock on avnet too :(

we might be able to provide a 'used' 7010 MicroZed as well for a reasonable price

or if you contribute to the AXIOM development, we might lend you a 7020 MicroZed for testing

if I was in Austria, that'd be doable

if not hardware, I'll contribute software, since we're making the same product in the end - a camera.

They're totally different, and I think both are under NDA, but they're really cool sensors

my goal is to one day make a real high speed camera

but it's no fun just owning one

so I have to settle on the CMV2k

Spirit532, however I think that is too large a task for a single person to handle

well, without previous experience anyway

Spirit532, I have only done FPGA stuff

and not at Gb/s

none

me and Bertl were discussing about capturing with multiple SDCARDS

FPGAs are new to me, but so was C/C++ until I wanted to make a game cheat

yes

100MB/s

isn't it cheaper at that point to just make your own plug-in PCB with a stack of eMMC 5.1 modules?

Toshiba Exceria Pro, $144 for 32GB, 240MB/s write speed

okay, cya!

Spirit532: The CMV12k is able to do 4K@300fps, FHD@820FPS, HD@2300FPS and VGA@1800FPS, so when you can afford it, just take advantage of Axiom's modularity :)

Can the Axiom Team confirm if the sensor is capable of that? I don't recall those framerates appearing on the sensor's datasheet... Maybe some testing of the sensor's windowed mode can confirm it.

rgon: links are fine, much better than saying "I've read it somewhere on the net" :P

not sure if the Beta hardware can go that fast though, but Bertl_oO can tell you more about it

... with the Xilinx Zync 7010/7020 Microzed.

They're using the LUPA sensors from ON Semi

$289 for the 7020 microzed

I guess they REALLY don't have it in stock.

but then, it isn't documented anywhere

okay

it's a high-speed oriented device

circular buffer into RAM until triggered

A question to the Apertus team: How are you planning to store the data on the Axion Gamma?

I will probably be going for additional RAM on my camera

The ARM core isn't powerful enough.

Is it really?

3 gigabits per second of data

Well, for anyone looking for some information, the Youtube user Tesla500 has made a high speed camera using one of those LUPA image sensors. He tried first using an FPGA, but as he said, implementing the storage was quite difficult. Here's the post on his blog http://omeganaught.com/category/projects/imaging/hsc768-camera/

that's why he used RAM

ah, no, actually, it's not 3 gigabits

lol

Damn... Tesla500 used a SOC to implement the storage and compression. The resolution is just 1024*1024 though.

he used the FPGA to read the sensor data and store it in RAM

rgon, he used the LUPA1300-2 sensor

so pretty much the same as the CMV12000

but the speed becomes a problem

and the microzed can only support up to 55 LVDS pairs on the 7020.

I just linked the page because he explains all the considerations he had to take into account when designing the camera. It might not be as useful for the experienced Apertus Team, but it might for others.

Are there any multiplexing tricks going on? Maybe taking advantage of the zynq's faster-than-600Mb/s lanes?

rgon, as far as I'm aware there's no way to do it

and that's taking up pretty much all IO

if you really want the high speed, you need your own board with a 7030 or a 7045 on it, the sensor, and a few RAM slots

Well, let's see what Axiom responds.

Avnet quoted me on the 7010

nn