Current Server Time: 17:41 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2016/04/25

Timezone: UTC


01:19
Jumboberg
joined the channel
01:23
jucar
joined the channel
01:25
Jumboberg
left the channel
02:21
Spirit532
left the channel
02:22
Spirit532
joined the channel
02:27
sab_123
joined the channel
06:26
arpu
left the channel
06:36
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
06:36
Bertl
morning folks!
06:37
Spirit532
hi Bertl
06:37
Spirit532
I left a small wall of text in the logs, have any opinion about that?
06:37
Spirit532
I see you're very active in the development
06:37
Bertl
yep, reading up now ...
06:39
arpu
joined the channel
06:40
Bertl
we have a sensor frontend for the CMV2k in the works, and the 7010 would work with our design as well, except that some of the high speed output lanes are missing
06:41
Spirit532
Well, your system isn't available yet, even for developers, and it's slightly too expensive for me
06:42
Bertl
so probably the simplest approach for you would be to help with/work on the CMV12k frontend, unless you have other requirements
06:42
Spirit532
I don't really have requirements, only one constraint - money.
06:43
Spirit532
If I had the hardware infront of me, I could put hundreds of hours of work into it, and the only way to get cheap hardware is to use my combination.
06:43
Bertl
the designs for the AXIOM Beta are FOSS/OH and you can order the boards via OSHpark
06:43
Spirit532
The uppermost limit is around $600
06:44
Bertl
that is probably what the microzed and the sensor will cost you
06:44
Spirit532
Not at all!
06:44
Spirit532
The 7010 is quoted at $179 in one-off quantities
06:44
jucar
left the channel
06:44
Spirit532
The CMV2k Color/IR filter is $250 on Mouser
06:45
Spirit532
I could put the sensor on one side of the board, and the missing interfaces(such as SDI, etc.) on the other side as a double-sided load
06:46
Spirit532
Though, with the sensor it's going to be a double-sided load, because socket & decoupling caps
06:47
Bertl
the AXIOM Beta boards you can get for about $99 if you manage to sell the other two copies (OSHpark sells you 3 boards of each)
06:47
Bertl
but of course, you might have some cheaper source for 4 layer PCBs
06:47
Spirit532
OSHPark is a little expensive, I will probably be going with macrofab or directly to China to dirtypcbs
06:49
Spirit532
There are also local manufacturers that have sent me quotes in the past, so they are an option too.
06:52
Bertl
well, it shouldn't be too hard to find something, we have taken good care to keep it simple
06:54
Spirit532
Yep, it looks clean
06:54
Spirit532
The amount of HDL files is intimidating though D:
06:55
Bertl
normally most of it is hidden in proprietary IP cores
06:56
Spirit532
Do you guys have any CMV2k sensors and/or microzeds on hand?
07:02
Spirit532
From the blog updates it seemed like you couldn't start making developer systems to send out to people
07:12
Bertl
does it? we are shipping developer kits every week now
07:12
Bertl
but with the 7020 and CMV12k
07:13
Bertl
CMV2k we have some for testing
07:16
Spirit532
Oh! Neat
07:16
Spirit532
When will the 2k be available?
07:16
Spirit532
And more importantly, how much will it cost?
07:17
Bertl
as soon as we finish the CMV2k sensor frontend I'd say
07:18
Spirit532
Is there anything I can contribute to that?
07:19
Alex_Chooks
joined the channel
07:20
Bertl
sure, for example, you could work on the sensor frontend itself, speeding up things
07:20
Spirit532
What is left to do? PCB design?
07:21
Bertl
yeah, it would make sense to adapt the CMV12k frontend to the CMV2k
07:22
Spirit532
Totally different packages & pinouts though
07:22
Spirit532
On the plus side it will also work with the CMV4000
07:22
Spirit532
drop-in replacement
07:22
Bertl
yes, but the interface is very similar
07:23
Spirit532
though I am not sure why you would want to shoot 2048x2048 in a funny square format
07:23
Bertl
CMV2k/4k are basically identical
07:23
Bertl
maybe for astronomy?
07:23
Spirit532
but the sensor isn't cooled
07:23
Spirit532
and they are noisy with very long exposures
07:24
Bertl
cooling might be easy to add
07:24
Spirit532
not really that easy
07:24
Spirit532
I haven't checked yet - are the sockets hollow?
07:26
Bertl
the CMV2k/4k comes in different packages
07:26
Bertl
one is an LCC
07:26
Spirit532
well, yeah
07:26
Spirit532
you could solder it
07:26
Spirit532
that would give way for a hole and a cooling block to be stuck to the sensor from the back
07:26
Spirit532
but that would be really expensive
07:27
Bertl
another option for the CMV4k specifically is to cool 'around' the sensor
07:27
Bertl
it has a rather large are where no pins are
07:27
Bertl
so that might work as well
07:28
Spirit532
no, you REALLY need to get in there
07:28
Spirit532
unless you want to thermally insulate half the camera
07:28
Spirit532
because the sensor needs to get quite cold - just a few deg C
07:28
Bertl
it is not that the sensor gets hot like a CPU or FPGA
07:28
Spirit532
that's true
07:29
Bertl
i.e. it is more a question of constant cooling
07:29
Spirit532
but you have to keep it at a steady low temperature
07:30
Bertl
but it is nice to see that mouser stocks the Cmosis chips
07:31
Bertl
although in single quantities as it seems
07:31
Spirit532
the price bites a little, especially for someone like me
07:32
Bertl
se6astian can check what price we would get for the CMV2k, but I fear with shipping and import duties it might be more than the mouser price
07:33
Spirit532
definetly less than mine
07:33
Spirit532
belarus recently introduced a very, very stupid law that says "anything valued above 22 euro must be taxed 30%"
07:33
Spirit532
and that's a 22 euro monthly limit
07:34
Bertl
that is very similar to what we have in Austria
07:34
Bertl
but let's check and see what we can do
07:39
Bertl
what software do you use for board design?
07:40
Spirit532
KiCad, just switched from Eagle
07:40
Spirit532
It's very intuitive
07:40
Bertl
well, that's almost perfect, we have most designs still in Eagle with the plan to transition to KiCad
07:41
Bertl
so you could move the CMV12k design to KiCad and adapt it for the CMV2k/4k for example
07:41
Spirit532
I'd like to, but I'm a little hesitant D:
07:42
Spirit532
Quite a lot of work, albeit for good cause, but with no end product to hold :Ñ
07:43
Spirit532
That is, I can't pay for a copy of the end product
07:43
Spirit532
Not now anyway.
07:43
Bertl
I thought you planned to build one?
07:43
Spirit532
I'm not sure if I should build an Axiom
07:44
pusle
left the channel
07:44
Spirit532
It's got a slightly different construction from what I need, which is mainly cheap and simple vs. vast and extendable, which is what you have.
07:45
Bertl
so you plan to do your own design based on the CMV2k ... well that's fine for us too
07:45
Spirit532
I wouldn't mind building the Axiom, but it all comes down to costs. I just can't afford a 2000+ euro camera
07:46
RexO
left the channel
07:46
tres
joined the channel
07:47
Bertl
as I said, the boards will cost you about 100 USD at OSHpark (i.e. all of them) if you manage to sell the other two copies, they might cost you even less in china
07:47
Spirit532
That's just raw boards
07:47
Bertl
correct, but you won't get around most of the parts anyway
07:48
Bertl
i.e. you do not need to populate parts you won't use
07:48
Spirit532
Well, which ones can I not populate?
07:48
Bertl
most of the power rails for example
07:48
Bertl
probably the routing fabric FPGAs (lattice MachXO2)
07:48
Spirit532
I didn't get that in your design
07:49
Bertl
speaker, PCIe interface
07:49
Spirit532
Is it glue logic to connect to... glue logic in the zynq? :D
07:49
Bertl
(doesn't make sense on the 7010 anyway)
07:49
Bertl
hmm? didn't get the question
07:49
Spirit532
Well, it seemed a little redundant
07:49
Bertl
the MachXO2s?
07:49
Spirit532
Having FPGAs connect to another FPGA
07:50
Spirit532
yeah
07:50
Bertl
well, the Zynq has very limited IOs
07:50
Bertl
i.e. they are limited in number
07:50
Bertl
for the shields and plugin modules we use the Lattice FPGAs to handle low speed GPIOs
07:51
Spirit532
I won't be needing those
07:51
Bertl
that's what I'm saying :)
07:51
tres
Hi!
07:52
Bertl
hey tres!
07:52
tres
Just a curious bystander
07:52
Bertl
engage and contribute! :)
07:54
Spirit532
I was also quite disappointed that there is no in-built monitor
07:55
Spirit532
And of course no internal recording
07:55
Spirit532
I get that it's heading for a high-end camera, but implementing these features would be interesting
07:56
Bertl
both are huge projects on their own and there are readily available solutions out there
07:56
Spirit532
Are they really huge though?
07:56
Bertl
recording 4k raw is not an easy task
07:56
Spirit532
Is it a problem of the medium?
07:57
Spirit532
Or is the FPGA just not powerful enough?
07:57
Bertl
mostly a problem of the huge bandwidth
07:57
Spirit532
There are industry-standard mediums that allow for 4k raw recording
07:57
Spirit532
C-Fast cards for example
07:58
Bertl
lol
07:59
Spirit532
They're stupid expensive and rather tiny in capacity
07:59
Spirit532
But they do work
07:59
Spirit532
Well, "tiny" is a relative term
08:01
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
08:01
tres
even at 510MB/s, it is not enough for 4k right
08:01
Bertl
it might work for lower frame rates
08:01
Spirit532
And then there's Sony SRMemory, which can write faster than the FPGA can clock, but cost more than your lab with the camera inside
08:01
Spirit532
$9915 for a 1TB drive
08:01
Bertl
the main problem with SATA based storage is that the Zynq doesn't have any multi gigabit tranceivers
08:02
Spirit532
Does it not?
08:02
tres
MGS is pretty cheap on newer FPGA's
08:02
Bertl
not the 7010 and not the 7020
08:02
tres
Especially lattice ones
08:02
Bertl
yep, so you need to add another FPGA
08:02
Bertl
and then you need to handle the SATA core in that FPGA
08:03
tres
stick a computer in there
08:03
tres
:-)
08:03
tres
It will solve all your problems
08:03
Bertl
given that the available open source SATA cores are not that robust yet, it adds a lot of work for recording
08:03
Spirit532
Ah. The 7015 and 7030 have transceivers.
08:04
Bertl
we thought about that as well, even if it sounds funny (the stick the computer in there part :)
08:04
Bertl
but it requires a high speed interface to said computer, which probably would be PCIe
08:04
Spirit532
or CL
08:04
Spirit532
or CXP
08:04
Bertl
and this only moves the problem from SATA to PCIe (which is quite similar)
08:04
Spirit532
lol
08:05
tres
I see some cameras on indiegogo
08:05
tres
and they record 4k
08:05
Spirit532
not raw
08:05
tres
what is your compressions ration?
08:05
tres
1:2
08:05
Spirit532
0
08:05
Spirit532
raw = no compression
08:05
Bertl
tres: with raw you always have to assume 1:1
08:05
Bertl
even if you manage to compress it down to 50% on average
08:06
Spirit532
oh
08:06
Spirit532
neat
08:06
Spirit532
the zynq devices are all pin-compatible
08:06
Spirit532
... slap a 7030 onto the microzed
08:06
Bertl
add some wires for the MGTs :)
08:07
Bertl
nah, sorry, won't work
08:07
tres
Those are 6 layer +
08:07
tres
MGS needs altium
08:07
tres
you cant use Kicad
08:07
tres
Impedance control
08:07
tres
no more oshpark
08:07
Bertl
that's just plain wrong
08:07
tres
why do you say that
08:07
Spirit532
impedance schmepedance
08:07
Spirit532
who cares
08:07
Spirit532
bridge it with a 3k resistor instead of vias
08:07
Spirit532
:^)
08:08
Bertl
because impedance control is not something altium specific
08:08
tres
Bertl, you can simulate impedance of traces in Kicad?
08:08
tres
Impedance depends on stack up
08:08
tres
trace width
08:08
tres
trace length doesnt matter
08:08
Bertl
you can easily measure it on a test PCB
08:08
tres
But alitum helps you keep these rules once you set them up
08:09
tres
Kicad does length matching
08:09
tres
But for high frequency stuff, I always though Altium/orcad/PADS is standard
08:09
Spirit532
I think kicad does calculate impedance
08:09
Bertl
if you don't do auto-router designs, you should be able to match the measured values
08:09
Spirit532
that too
08:10
tres
any interesting links?
08:10
tres
for this/?
08:10
Spirit532
the support forums say so
08:10
Bertl
there are also good tools to calculate the impedance beforehand
08:10
Bertl
like field solver
08:10
Spirit532
and then there's that
08:10
Spirit532
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/kicad/+spec/impedance-controlled-traces
08:11
Bertl
also 4 layers are enough to get good controlled impedance with a careful design
08:11
Spirit532
but still
08:11
Spirit532
recording would be a good idea
08:11
Bertl
note that I would love to see 6 layer boards on OSHpark, but that's another story :)
08:11
Spirit532
maybe available only with lower speeds
08:12
tres
I just order from China
08:12
tres
Its cheaper and easier
08:12
Spirit532
Bertl, http://dev.dangerousprototypes.com/store/pcbs
08:12
tres
Yes
08:12
Spirit532
up to 14 layers!1111!11!1
08:12
Bertl
we care about fair labour and safe working environments
08:12
tres
but DRC is not enough
08:12
Spirit532
lol
08:12
tres
They do only 6mil
08:12
Spirit532
a 14-layer 5x5cm board
08:12
tres
I think this needs 4mil?
08:12
Spirit532
I'd make a blinkenlight.
08:13
tres
Ah in Europe I think that plays an important role
08:13
tres
here , you just do whats the cheapest and most economical
08:13
Bertl
where here is?
08:13
tres
India
08:14
tres
:-)
08:14
tres
I think the same story follows in USA
08:14
tres
also
08:14
tres
But when you have volume and need to ship somethihng to customers
08:14
Bertl
well, obviously not everywhere, otherwise OSHpark wouldn't be popular
08:14
tres
and you are competing on price
08:14
tres
Then every dollar makes a difference
08:15
tres
If I spend 1 dollar more on my product
08:15
tres
I have to raise the price by 4x
08:15
tres
so 4USD
08:15
Bertl
why's that?
08:15
tres
Thats the gebral rule of thumb
08:15
Bertl
i.e. who gets the other 3 dollars?
08:15
tres
retail fo r4x
08:15
tres
if product x costs y to make
08:15
tres
retail for 4y
08:16
tres
figure in the sw costs, rents etc
08:16
Bertl
don't you see the flaw in what you are saying here?
08:16
tres
Atleast thats wha I do
08:16
tres
why the flaw?
08:16
tres
care to explain?
08:17
Bertl
you are basically saying, for each dollar I pay more in production, I _have_ to charge 3 more in retail
08:17
tres
so?
08:17
Bertl
i.e. one chip goes up by one dollar - *bang* I have to charge 4 dollar more
08:18
tres
yes
08:18
tres
for price sensitive goods
08:18
Bertl
there is no logical reason for that
08:18
tres
this is how it works
08:18
Bertl
it is how you are told it works
08:18
tres
:-)
08:18
Bertl
and it is common practice and probably what you do
08:18
tres
thats not what i do
08:18
tres
most products do this
08:18
Bertl
but as I said, there is no logical explanation for it
08:19
tres
money not reason enough ??
08:19
Bertl
nope!
08:19
tres
well
08:19
Bertl
you can't really eat it
08:19
tres
wehn you have an opensource product
08:20
tres
maybe
08:20
Bertl
and while it burns quite well, it is gone really fast :)
08:20
tres
when you actually have to pay and get paid
08:20
tres
the money disappears really fast
08:20
Spirit532
tres, think about it
08:21
tres
I am outnummbered here
08:21
tres
I guess I have to give up
08:21
Spirit532
would you like to pay 8000 euro for the most basic axiom beta camera AFTER the discounts?
08:21
Spirit532
I wouldn't
08:21
tres
Well to put it in perspective
08:21
tres
I am not talking about niche products
08:21
tres
Where only 20-100 are made
08:21
tres
I work on Ip cameras
08:21
Spirit532
these will be manufactured later on
08:22
Spirit532
they won't be a niche hipster toy
08:22
Spirit532
it's the whole point
08:22
tres
and if my bare BOM costs are about 20USD
08:22
tres
I sell for about 80USD
08:22
tres
its the only way I will make back what I put in
08:22
Spirit532
then you're an idiot
08:23
Bertl
let's keep it civilized
08:23
tres
left the channel
08:23
Spirit532
sell for enough to sleep, pay the workers, and have a bit left for R&D
08:23
Bertl
nobody is an idiot
08:23
Spirit532
it's the best way
08:25
Spirit532
it's the problem with the industry
08:25
Spirit532
people are hungry for money
08:26
Spirit532
anyway
08:26
Spirit532
back to recording
08:27
Spirit532
it would still be a nice option to have something that could record, maybe not as fast as it can externally
08:27
Spirit532
but that's what Sony does
08:27
Spirit532
(on their consumer cameras)
08:27
Bertl
we have an unused SD card
08:27
Spirit532
that's slightly silly
08:27
Bertl
you can write with up to 25MB/s to it
08:27
Spirit532
SD cards are a little TOO slow lol
08:28
Spirit532
though for FHD, the CMV2k, that would be acceptable, maybe
08:28
Bertl
if you use the system SD as well, which you could, then you can get twice the speed
08:29
Spirit532
I didn't look into it - is slow(er) SATA possible using the 7010 or 7020?
08:30
Bertl
we don't know yet
08:30
Spirit532
Commercial SSDs are relatively cheap
08:30
Spirit532
And very large
08:30
Bertl
we have tested HDMI out up to 150MHz pixel rate
08:30
Bertl
which means 1.5Gbit per channel
08:30
Spirit532
oh that's plenty
08:30
Bertl
that would be the lowest SATA mode
08:31
Bertl
one complication with sata is the OOB signalling
08:32
Bertl
*signaling
08:32
Bertl
so definiteyl needs testing
08:32
Bertl
*definitely
08:33
Bertl
typing with a bunch of Beta boards on my keyboard :)
08:34
Spirit532
Send me one :P
08:34
Spirit532
Do you assemble them yourself in the lab, or using a fab?
08:35
Bertl
currently we assemble them ourselves
08:35
Spirit532
Well, if you have any dev kits... yeah, you don't, the board isn't developed yet
08:36
Bertl
it is tivial to do a SATA plugin for the AXIOM Beta
08:36
Bertl
it would be simpler than the HDMI plugin
08:37
Bertl
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Beta_HDMI_Plugin_Module
08:37
Spirit532
No, I was thinking of assembling everything myself, reducing labor costs and price, but you do not have the CMV2k board yet
08:37
Bertl
ah, correct
08:37
Spirit532
oh, I see a bodge! :P
08:38
Bertl
folks doing the wiki are lazy, if you check the revision on the board, it's v0.4
08:38
Bertl
we are at v0.8 at the moment
08:38
Spirit532
I see
08:38
Bertl
new pictures should be coming soon though, I sent a few modules to the photo session recently
08:39
Spirit532
How many CMV2k sensors do you have in stock right now?
08:39
Bertl
se6astian: how many CMV2k do we have?
08:39
Spirit532
It might just be easier for me to buy a single sensor from you, without the importing/customs hassle
08:40
Bertl
then you probably have to pay us a visit :)
08:40
Spirit532
That's a long train journey
08:40
Spirit532
And I think my schengen has expired D:
08:40
Bertl
otherwise import/customs will still apply
08:40
Spirit532
They won't, I have a few tricks
08:41
Spirit532
If you mark it as used(which it is, because you touched it!), you can declare it as anything in value.
08:41
Bertl
with additional risk if it gets lost
08:41
Spirit532
Insurance has never worked for me. I've shipped lots of things, some got lost.
08:42
Spirit532
But if you ship tracked, it won't get lost
08:42
tezburma
joined the channel
08:43
Spirit532
What I wanted to say, if I could buy the sensor at a discount from you instead, I could skip the OSHPark or china PCB fab, and just order a set here, with a quick turnaround(less than a week)
08:43
Spirit532
Which means a working board within a week or two
08:47
se6astian
good morning
08:47
se6astian
we have one cmv2k I think
08:47
Spirit532
morning to you too
08:47
Spirit532
that's unfortunate
08:51
Spirit532
I guess I'll just have to wait until I get the money to buy the parts from retailers
08:52
Bertl
let's give it a few days and we'll check with Cmosis
08:52
Spirit532
microzeds are out of stock on avnet too :(
08:53
Spirit532
sent them a quote request, still waiting for a reply
08:54
Bertl
we might be able to provide a 'used' 7010 MicroZed as well for a reasonable price
08:54
Spirit532
that would be good
08:55
Bertl
or if you contribute to the AXIOM development, we might lend you a 7020 MicroZed for testing
08:55
Spirit532
lending would be too much hassle logistically
08:55
Spirit532
if I was in Austria, that'd be doable
08:55
RexO
joined the channel
08:56
Spirit532
if not hardware, I'll contribute software, since we're making the same product in the end - a camera.
09:04
Spirit532
Oh, and by the way, have you looked at the Lince5M sensor and the GPIXEL sensors?
09:05
Spirit532
They're totally different, and I think both are under NDA, but they're really cool sensors
09:05
Bertl
there are a lot of really cool sensors, but with NDA requirements, nothing for us
09:06
Spirit532
my goal is to one day make a real high speed camera
09:06
Spirit532
I own one that does 1280x1024 @ 1000fps
09:06
Spirit532
but it's no fun just owning one
09:07
Spirit532
sadly the faster sensors are, the more expensive they are
09:07
Spirit532
so I have to settle on the CMV2k
09:13
sab_123
Spirit532, thats something I always wanted to do too
09:14
sab_123
Spirit532, however I think that is too large a task for a single person to handle
09:14
Spirit532
definetly
09:14
Spirit532
well, without previous experience anyway
09:15
Spirit532
which this will be
09:15
sab_123
Spirit532, I have only done FPGA stuff
09:15
Spirit532
I haven't done a lot of FPGA stuff
09:15
sab_123
and not at Gb/s
09:17
sab_123
Spirit532, what is your area of expertise?
09:17
Spirit532
none
09:17
sab_123
:-)
09:17
sab_123
me and Bertl were discussing about capturing with multiple SDCARDS
09:18
Spirit532
I do everything, from electronics to photography to CNC machining and x-rays
09:19
Spirit532
FPGAs are new to me, but so was C/C++ until I wanted to make a game cheat
09:19
Spirit532
multiple SD cards?
09:19
sab_123
yes
09:19
sab_123
SDR104
09:19
sab_123
100MB/s
09:19
sab_123
split and save
09:20
Spirit532
isn't it cheaper at that point to just make your own plug-in PCB with a stack of eMMC 5.1 modules?
09:21
Spirit532
though you could also use the UHS-2 class cards
09:22
Spirit532
Toshiba Exceria Pro, $144 for 32GB, 240MB/s write speed
10:28
Spirit532
I'm going to bed. 12:27 PM here, and I know my schedule is backwards. I'll be online, so feel free to poke me or PM. Talk to you later.
10:29
Bertl
okay, cya!
10:54
panther_
joined the channel
10:57
sab_123
left the channel
11:28
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
11:28
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
11:58
pusle
joined the channel
13:56
aombk2
joined the channel
13:59
aombk3
left the channel
14:00
RexO
left the channel
14:00
RexO
joined the channel
15:20
panther__
joined the channel
15:24
panther_
left the channel
15:41
rexbron
left the channel
15:44
rexbron
joined the channel
16:02
jucar
joined the channel
16:08
panther__
left the channel
16:15
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
16:20
Guillaume_Chooks
left the channel
16:39
jucar
left the channel
17:05
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
17:06
Bertl
joined the channel
17:08
Bertl
left the channel
17:53
rgon
joined the channel
17:59
rgon
Hi, I've just been reading today's conversation.
17:59
rgon
Spirit532: The CMV12k is able to do 4K@300fps, FHD@820FPS, HD@2300FPS and VGA@1800FPS, so when you can afford it, just take advantage of Axiom's modularity :)
17:59
rgon
At least according to the guys behind the fps1000 camera. Here's the source: http://hispeedcams.com/fps1000-4k-slowmo-camera-development/
18:00
rgon
Can the Axiom Team confirm if the sensor is capable of that? I don't recall those framerates appearing on the sensor's datasheet... Maybe some testing of the sensor's windowed mode can confirm it.
18:01
rgon
BTW, please tell me if I'm flooding the chat with too much links... I'm just trying to be helpful :)
18:07
alexML_
rgon: links are fine, much better than saying "I've read it somewhere on the net" :P
18:08
alexML_
the sensor datasheet does mention 300 fps at full resolution in 10-bit mode, and higher frame rates in windowed modes
18:09
alexML_
not sure if the Beta hardware can go that fast though, but Bertl_oO can tell you more about it
18:11
RexO
To my knowledge the Cmosis CMV12000 is maximum 300fps at 10bit or 132fps at 12bit on S35 at 4K.
18:12
RexO
... with the Xilinx Zync 7010/7020 Microzed.
18:17
RexO
Note - that hispeedcams dot com link is almost two years old.
18:48
Guillaume_Chooks
joined the channel
19:04
rexbron
left the channel
19:06
rexbron
joined the channel
19:28
Spirit532
The FPS1000 isn't using the CMV12k sensor
19:28
Spirit532
They're using the LUPA sensors from ON Semi
19:32
Spirit532
Hey, AVNET quoted me
19:32
Spirit532
$289 for the 7020 microzed
19:32
Spirit532
>_>
19:34
Jumboberg
joined the channel
19:36
Spirit532
They let the 7010 quotes expire for some reason.
19:36
Spirit532
I guess they REALLY don't have it in stock.
20:21
Bertl_oO
well, for the FPS1000, I don't see how they process and store the amount of data at those framerates
20:21
Bertl_oO
but then, it isn't documented anywhere
20:22
rgon
Spirit532: Nope, check the page. They talk about using the CMV12k on a 4k option for th fps1000.
20:22
Spirit532
okay
20:22
Spirit532
Bertl_oO, soldered RAM IIRC
20:22
Spirit532
it's a high-speed oriented device
20:23
Spirit532
it works like other high speed cameras in the world
20:23
Spirit532
circular buffer into RAM until triggered
20:24
rgon
Well, that's acceptable for a scientific camera, but it is not really optimal for a cinematography camera.
20:24
rgon
A question to the Apertus team: How are you planning to store the data on the Axion Gamma?
20:25
Spirit532
it isn't optimal, but it is very much an option
20:25
Spirit532
I will probably be going for additional RAM on my camera
20:25
rgon
Is the data going to be stored directly to a SATA device by the FPGA, or is it going to be handled by the Linux section of the Zynq?
20:25
Spirit532
The ARM core isn't powerful enough.
20:25
rgon
Sorry for interrupting you, Spirit532
20:25
rgon
Is it really?
20:26
Spirit532
definetly not
20:26
Spirit532
3 gigabits per second of data
20:26
Spirit532
if I recall correctly
20:27
rgon
Well, for anyone looking for some information, the Youtube user Tesla500 has made a high speed camera using one of those LUPA image sensors. He tried first using an FPGA, but as he said, implementing the storage was quite difficult. Here's the post on his blog http://omeganaught.com/category/projects/imaging/hsc768-camera/
20:28
Spirit532
yeah
20:28
Spirit532
that's why he used RAM
20:28
Spirit532
his entire RAM routing timelapse is on youtube
20:28
Spirit532
ah, no, actually, it's not 3 gigabits
20:28
Spirit532
38 gigabits
20:28
Spirit532
lol
20:29
Spirit532
the CMV12k sensor uses 64 LVDS outputs each running at 600 Mbps
20:30
rgon
Damn... Tesla500 used a SOC to implement the storage and compression. The resolution is just 1024*1024 though.
20:30
Spirit532
he didn't
20:30
Spirit532
he used the FPGA to read the sensor data and store it in RAM
20:30
Spirit532
and then the SOC to compress it and write it to media after capture
20:32
Spirit532
rgon, he used the LUPA1300-2 sensor
20:32
Spirit532
it's $1200
20:33
Spirit532
so pretty much the same as the CMV12000
20:33
Spirit532
which is a lot better and faster
20:37
Spirit532
but the speed becomes a problem
20:37
Spirit532
the 12k, as I mentioned, has 64 LVDS output running at 600MHz EACH
20:37
Spirit532
and the microzed can only support up to 55 LVDS pairs on the 7020.
20:38
Spirit532
Which means it's multiplexed from 64 to 32, halving the maximum speed.
20:51
morrigan_
left the channel
20:55
rgon
Well, he did use the SOC to implement the storage and compression. He used the FPGA for the image acquisition and forwarding the data to the SOC to store it (SD card/SATA/USB).
20:57
rgon
I just linked the page because he explains all the considerations he had to take into account when designing the camera. It might not be as useful for the experienced Apertus Team, but it might for others.
21:04
rgon
And does the Microzed (Zynq 7020) really not support 64 LVDS lanes? How's Apertus planning to build the new, faster interface board which supports the sensor's full bandwidth?
21:04
rgon
Are there any multiplexing tricks going on? Maybe taking advantage of the zynq's faster-than-600Mb/s lanes?
21:04
tezburma
left the channel
21:05
Spirit532
rgon, as far as I'm aware there's no way to do it
21:05
Spirit532
only 55 lanes
21:06
Spirit532
and that's taking up pretty much all IO
21:06
Spirit532
so there's that
21:06
Spirit532
if you really want the high speed, you need your own board with a 7030 or a 7045 on it, the sensor, and a few RAM slots
21:16
slikdigit
joined the channel
21:16
slikdigit
left the channel
21:16
slikdigit
joined the channel
21:20
slikdigit2
joined the channel
21:22
slikdigit
left the channel
21:24
rgon
Well, let's see what Axiom responds.
21:24
rgon
Good night people
21:24
rgon
left the channel
21:25
slikdigit2
left the channel
21:44
Spirit532
Avnet quoted me on the 7010
21:44
Spirit532
$178, same as on the site
22:12
alexML_
left the channel
22:14
se6astian
i am off to bed
22:23
Guillaume_Chooks
left the channel
22:31
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
22:32
RexO
nn
23:01
morrigan_
joined the channel