01:01 | wescotte_ | trying to wrap my head around this...
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01:03 | wescotte_ | If you can generate an image from any interval doesn't mean you'll have a decently exposure photo for any length right? I mean it's not like you get infinite slow motion from it right?
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01:04 | FergusL | alexML_: are you Alex from Magic Lantern ?
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01:19 | Bertl | yes, he is
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01:20 | derWalter | hey guys i ll try to stop procrastinating from now on, so you can reach me per email, i wont be here that much ^^
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01:31 | FergusL | hey, nice to see him around here hehe
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01:33 | Kantio | hi
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02:49 | anton__ | Hi, I hear the question "why?" Me: software developer, paid EUR350. Why? Like the idea a lot. I don't need to shoot much except home video. Want to access best tech (like Red Epic) for peanut price. Like to dream - maybe I get to help with the project and later on sometime go work with video more seriously, it's so much more interesting than my good-for-nothing java job. And hardware is more interesting. But then I'm not even sure I
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02:49 | anton__ | keep hoping - maybe it'll end up cheaper - what's there to cost EUR1300 apart from sensor.
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02:49 | anton__ | More interested in the Gamma maybe :) for actual purchase that is
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02:51 | anton__ | Also I hope that once you release Beta the chinese will take your blueprints and make the same but cheaper, drive the prices down :) And you'll end up making money consulting people who actually use Axiom cameras
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02:51 | anton__ | I hope for a full eco-system to grow around your designs
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02:52 | FergusL | hahaha
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02:52 | FergusL | not sure about the chinese mock up
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02:52 | anton__ | I think the story is about talking people into paying EUR350 for a world where Gamma will exist. It's about Gamma not Beta.
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02:52 | anton__ | FergusL: why not? if it's open hardware anybody can make them right?
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02:53 | FergusL | anybody is allowed to, but not anybody has the means to
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02:53 | FergusL | the final product will be very high end engineering grade
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02:55 | anton__ | FergusL: I want to live in a world where Gamma is released and I can see with my own eyes if the chenese do it or not :)
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02:56 | anton__ | btw slightly off topic now that the campaign is in danger - I'd much rather see Beta with metal case, I'd see the processor chip attached on thermal paste to the back of the camera and no fan if possible.. and some mounting points on the metal case - like the case being its own cage
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02:58 | anton__ | FergusL: in a way I'd say that if the chinese don't make a copy then the project hasn't achieved all of its goals. Open hardware is about anybody being able to repeat. If it can not be repeated -- well maybe it's a wrong design?
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03:01 | anton__ | also may be not the most important topic right now - but is Axiom and/or Apertus trademarks being properly looked after? what apache software foundation does - anybody can use the code but not everybody can use their trademark
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03:02 | anton__ | if not done already their experience can probably be used in terms of brand/trademark management
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03:09 | intracube | anton__: the chinese are already getting in on the action: http://www.kinefinity.tv/cameras/kineraw-kinemini/
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03:09 | intracube | hi FergusL
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03:34 | Bertl | anton__: I think the chinese are already making copies, but it is not our aim to endorse dubious working conditions and child labor, on the contrary, we advocate fair trade and fair labor
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06:10 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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08:07 | se6astian | good morning
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09:42 | se6astian | new article
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09:42 | se6astian | http://www.gizmodo.de/2014/09/22/axiom-beta-die-open-source-filmkamera.html
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10:15 | Umibuta_ | On the topic of promoting Beta/Gamma. For me I understand Apertus Team does not want to over-promise.
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10:16 | Umibuta_ | I appreciate the honest approach. But it is a little discouraging not knowing if there will be a Gamma.
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10:17 | Umibuta_ | Doubts that i had were mainly how the upgrade path will be from Beta to Gamma.
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10:21 | Umibuta_ | It does pull me back that it seems that the only thing that I can salvage might be the sensor. Also, what are the benefits of supporting Beta..
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10:24 | Umibuta_ | if I could buy the Gamma at a little over upgrade plus the cost of Beta (might be a lot more but I am just making wild guesses convincing myself)
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10:29 | Umibuta_ | Might sound ironical but the reason that for me funding this project is that there might not be a Gamma (touch wood). Being an open camera I am sure there will be developements beyond the present disclosed capability of Beta.
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10:32 | Umibuta_ | I guess it woud help encourage a few more supporters if there are more common grounds between Beta and Gamma othere than the sensor.
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10:33 | tyrone_ | hi all...
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10:34 | Umibuta_ | If Beta and Gamma are to be of different form factor then the upgrade would mean sending the camera back for a full overhaul.
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10:34 | Umibuta_ | Hi Tyrone.
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10:35 | tyrone_ | umibuta_ the main reason of the beta is to get to code work on a bigger scale, the other thing is at the moment everybody works sparetime to get a speed up it's necessary to work full time. :-)
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10:35 | tyrone_ | btw hi Umibuta_ :-)
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10:36 | Umibuta_ | I am just speaking my mind about why I support and what's stopping me.
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10:36 | tyrone_ | when there is no beta funding ther wont be soon a gamma except there will be the EU funding... but that is still going on.
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10:37 | Umibuta_ | I cannot contribute technically these are the only contributions I can dish out..... :(
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10:37 | tyrone_ | Umibuta_ that's your right... :-)
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10:38 | tyrone_ | it's nice to see you here and discuss the subject thats also helps...
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10:41 | Umibuta_ | Beneath all these, I am also trying to secretly fishing for more information about Beta/Gamma
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10:42 | tyrone_ | info about the gamma it's just a concept at the moment. the module concept is a nice idea but the best and cost effective way is still open.
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10:44 | Umibuta_ | What would the consequences be to push back the delivery date, so as to achieve smoother transition between Beta and Gamma. Putting aside the funding deadline.
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10:44 | tyrone_ | there where some indeas with some vita fmc conncectors but they will cost at least 50$ per module(male / female) and that will put the overal cost much up.
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10:44 | se6astian | maybe its OK to mention gamma in some way, but it has to be done very carefully
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10:44 | se6astian | people are used to "product announcements"
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10:45 | tyrone_ | when the conncectors ale costing more then the fpga then we have to find another solution...
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10:45 | se6astian | not sony talking of things it might want to try in a few years :)
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10:47 | Umibuta_ | I think Apertus has been honest about your delivery. This is a little of a chicken and egg thing.
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10:50 | tyrone_ | to be fair is importand then today everbody can say we can do this and that but on the end it's important what you can deliver... and here apertus try's to be realistic....
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10:51 | Umibuta_ | Disclosing what you are trying and not delivering vs disclosing what is proven but lesser fanfare
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10:52 | Umibuta_ | be right back
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10:53 | tyrone_ | i also have go quick my work is waiting....
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11:08 | se6astian | maybe we can do this as video interview
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11:09 | se6astian | as I think with text it will be long and difficult
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11:09 | se6astian | because people might read only a few lines
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11:09 | se6astian | and get a wrong impression
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11:20 | Umibuta_ | se6astian: Will Gamma be still using the zedboard? or it's only being used in beta.
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11:28 | se6astian | possibly the picozed
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11:28 | se6astian | but we will only be able to confirm that once we tested the picozed
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11:28 | se6astian | it was introduced one day after we launched the campaign
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11:28 | se6astian | and still has 8 weeks lead time
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11:30 | Umibuta_ | I read somewhere in the log that it might be a candidate for Beta as well?
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11:40 | se6astian | yes its largly compatible to the microzed
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11:40 | se6astian | so herbert is thinking about supporting it with an adapter PCB
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12:05 | se6astian | gotta go
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12:05 | se6astian | bbs
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12:41 | anton4 | Hi. Idea: what if the perk for EUR350 contribution was - get Axiom Beta _or_ Gamma at cost? I was actually considering asking you for this change when time comess for myself. But maybee it could be useful for the campaign as well?
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12:43 | anton4 | I am trying to help with publicity. However the message which I am rying to get across is - a wonderful camera ecosystem is being created and contributions are being taken to that end, oh btw contributions also entitle you to buy a camera at cost
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12:48 | anton4 | I am also trying to figure out how close http://www.openssd-project.org are to deliverin their pcie Xilinx 7045 based prototype ssd board with 512Gb nand. If that thing was available it could be used for internal storage in different ways. One way would be to incorporate their FPGA designs into the main Axiom board buy NAND module SODIMMs from them and connect that NAND directly to the main Xilinx possibly via pins intended for that high spe
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12:50 | anton4 | No response to my emails so far from the Korean university guys behind openssd project
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12:51 | anton4 | Hmm this web irc log is truncating very long messages.
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12:53 | DaFred | Sounds like a good idea. Nobody knows the costs for Gamma but the money comes in. But how many Betas should be built then? Many contributors will be waiting for the Gamma then and the goal is to bring the hardware to the developers. Maybe all potential developers have contributed already...
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12:56 | Bertl | mornign folks!
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12:58 | Bertl | anton4: it's not the web irc log, there is a message limit on IRC
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12:59 | Bertl | also an SSD based on 7045 can per definition not be open, as the 7045 requires a hefty license from Xilinx
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13:00 | Bertl | (which is why we restrict ourselves to 7010/20/30 and recently 7015, which is also covered by the webpack)
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13:04 | anton4 | Berl: I know about webpack andd 7045. This is one of my questions to the univercity guys. They also promise pcie. Not sure if they expect.to use any proprietery IP logic for that. BUT if they release their own FPGA/arm code under gpl this may be good enough. We may run their code on the main Xilinx chip
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13:05 | Bertl | did you find the source for the firmware anywhere?
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13:05 | anton4 | And I was also dreaming of ordering nand sodimm modules.via them. That is if they are not vaporware
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13:06 | anton4 | No, nothing, just a promise to deliver in Q4 2014
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13:07 | Bertl | so basically we are looking at a closed source, highly proprietary development from korea? which rides the open source train :)
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13:07 | anton4 | They have some firmware for another irrelevant ssd controller which they worked on earlier
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13:07 | Bertl | but hey, maybe they will open up sooner or later ... I'd say, till then, not very interesting
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13:08 | anton4 | To me it looks like we are looking at not known when available gpl.software from some uni guys
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13:10 | anton4 | They are not riding open source train, the kits are not availablee for sale either yet
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13:12 | danieel | would be quite expensive given a 7045 being in there
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13:21 | anton6 | danieel: indeed, do not understand their choice
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13:22 | danieel | why? they are doing R&D for flash algorithms...
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13:27 | anton7 | danieel: anyway, i'm still hoping for some kind of communication with them; they presented the project in Aug on a conference and promise to deliver in Q4... lets see what comes of it.. always wanted an open software ssd btw :)
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13:30 | Bertl | keep us updated if they reply
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13:31 | anton7 | Bertl: sure
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13:33 | Bertl | off for now ... bbl
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15:37 | cecilff | hello!
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15:38 | mars_ | hi cecilff
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15:40 | cecilff | Hi! well, I don't understand the pricing of the shipment of the axiom beta
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15:40 | cecilff | does anybody know?
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15:40 | cecilff | why is it so expensive?
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15:43 | Juicyfruit | cecilff, well the sensor and the zedboard together make up for a good chunk of the price as far as I am aware
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15:44 | se6astian | correct the image sensor is the most expensive component
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16:06 | aombk | he is talking about the shipment cost
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16:20 | cecilff | Yes, I thougt the price of the sensor was somehow lowered, but I guess the 1900 Euro is the price of the sensor and cannot be avoided...
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17:44 | Bertl | back now ...
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18:39 | Bertl | hey sebix! what's up?
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18:52 | Bertl | it seems quiet ... I guess I'll take a nap then ... bbl
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20:06 | philippej | hi everyone !
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20:07 | Guest23022 | changed nick to: miroslav
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20:07 | philippej | according to teardown iphone assembly cost is $11 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-deYWZKji4Wk/VCBl8HQC-BI/AAAAAAAAKSw/CFKvaqhJifw/s1600/iPhone-Comparison.png
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20:29 | anton3 | Hi Sebastian, sorry for being repeatetive, but if I may reiterate my vision for the rest of the campaign
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20:30 | anton4 | We are going to pitch media a bit more
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20:31 | anton4 | We are going to talk to some more bloggers
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20:31 | anton4 | And as we do that un my view the best expression of our view is this:
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20:33 | anton4 | We are revolutionising the world. We are (if things work out) building a whole new ecosystem with its own rules of the game
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20:33 | se6astian | sorry, very occupied currenly
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20:33 | se6astian | do you want me feedback? then best email me
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20:34 | anton4 | No worries, I just want to pore out what I have in me
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20:35 | anton4 | ...to continue where I left...
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20:35 | anton4 | Supporting the project is a noble thing to do, it makes you part of the new world
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20:36 | anton4 | And incidentally yeah you can also buy a camera at cost if you support us now
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20:37 | anton4 | But thats not the main incentive the main are the stars ahead
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20:41 | anton4 | And if we view it like this then it makes sense to say that its not just Beta, you can buy any one camera from us. Its a lifelong perk. You can spend it on Beta or on Gamma or on any other future camera. You can avoid soending it all and just keep (maybe in the form of anice certificate) on the wall. Who knows maybe in a hundred years time they will be a valyable collectors item sold on auctions
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20:42 | anton4 | Like things from Tutanic. A certificate sayung "yes i was partial to the revolution"
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20:44 | anton4 | Or maybe smb will trade it in 100 years time for buying a camera of that day for symbolic price - of course if there still is a company at that time willing to honour its founder's pledge
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20:46 | anton4 | These things make me emitional, like the scene from the Lord of the Rings when a detachment of elfs come to fight alongside humans to honour a promise given centuries ago
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20:47 | anton4 | Be the Elfs, make a legend
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20:48 | anton4 | That will inspire people and will also de-emphasisr Beta which is indeed not the Ultimate Camera but more of a stepping stone
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20:48 | anton4 | Done :)
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20:50 | se6astian | sounds good :)
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20:51 | se6astian | now the tricky part: how can we get that message across to people?
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21:00 | anton4 | I only see two ways - as a company update and via the articles which we manage to get out in the time remaining.
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21:03 | se6astian | that is the channel, I am more thinking about the way to communicate this
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21:03 | se6astian | the content
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21:04 | anton4 | Was there a plan for a video interview? Then via the interview as well
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21:06 | anton4 | BTW I have confidence in you guys. You will go on no matter what. Even if the campaign fails. You've come too far :) Say that in the interview as well
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21:08 | se6astian | I had the idea of an interview indeed
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21:08 | se6astian | but while I do believe in everything you said I am not sure I can get it across well
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21:08 | se6astian | I am not an actor ... :(
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21:08 | se6astian | and english is also not my native language
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21:09 | se6astian | so it might feel strange :)
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21:12 | anton4 | BTW you may be able to recover part of the donations lost if the campaign fails. Send out a last update before it closes announcing that people can send the money to you ditectly - same amount same perk. Any one camera at cost for so long as the project/company is alive. Its like homebrew indiegogo on your website :)
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21:45 | Paperhat | se6astian: Anything that the team would like us, the average supporters, to do to help out besides sharing the campaign?
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21:50 | se6astian | you can have a critical eye on the campaign
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21:50 | se6astian | ask yourself what people would still be interested to learn about it
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21:50 | se6astian | what is not clear so far
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21:50 | se6astian | what are peoples doubts when they read the campaign page
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21:51 | Paperhat | I think the updates you've made have been very helpful so far
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21:52 | Paperhat | questions about size are cleared up. Spec questions are slowly clearing up.
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21:52 | Paperhat | people may seem to sill be confused about what specs to expect.
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21:53 | Paperhat | Maybe making a very tentative timeline of when planned features could be released after the beta.
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21:54 | se6astian | I am working on an "experimental 4k raw" explanation update now
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21:54 | se6astian | the timeline would be greatly influenced by what people want
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21:54 | Paperhat | with a caveat of course saying the timeline will be faster or slower depending on community participation
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21:54 | Paperhat | yeah thats true
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21:54 | se6astian | but maybe we can create a list of things that we would consider important on the roadmap
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21:54 | se6astian | that could be a nice update post
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21:55 | Paperhat | Roadmap is a good way of putting it
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21:55 | se6astian | great
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21:55 | Paperhat | And a few of my hesitant friends would benefit from the experimental 4k raw details
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21:55 | se6astian | Paperhat: are you an english native speaker?
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21:55 | Paperhat | yes
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21:55 | se6astian | perfect
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21:55 | Paperhat | I've helped a bit in the past
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21:55 | se6astian | do you want to review my update text
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21:55 | se6astian | check spelling/gramar
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21:56 | se6astian | general wording
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21:56 | Paperhat | I'd love to
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21:56 | se6astian | review it to make sure its clear to understand
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21:56 | se6astian | great
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21:59 | se6astian | I sent you a PM
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21:59 | se6astian | need your email address
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22:02 | Paperhat | i'm the student that reviewed the campaign footage.
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22:02 | Paperhat | i'm/I'm/
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22:07 | Paperhat | se6astian: Sorry I just saw your pm now.
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22:09 | se6astian | perfect
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22:22 | Bertl | back now ...
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22:23 | Bertl | wb Paperhat!
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22:31 | ThugAim | Aha!
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22:35 | ThugAim | saw the 4KSDI from IO Industries and thought, "So AXIOM decided on using colored parts."
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22:42 | danieel | but axiom is not 4k
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22:45 | danieel | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYcSqIuqkz4 ... nice variation on apertus pitch :)
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22:47 | Bertl | how do you arrive at the false conclusion that AXIOM Beta would not be 4k?
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22:48 | Bertl | and I'm note sure I get your joke? with the youtube link
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22:49 | Q_ | I'm confused. The page about axiom beta mentions "different lens mount options", including EF. While the FAQ says Nikon F-mount only. I've read somewhere that it's passive only but can't find it now anymore. EF lenses (like the FAQ says) would need electronics for the aperture control. Can someone clarify?
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22:49 | danieel | you cant connect it to a standard 4k device nor to provide an internal recorder of 4k video
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22:49 | Bertl | why do you say that?
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22:49 | danieel | the joke is 'f*ck it, i quit' by the reporter
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22:50 | danieel | is there?
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22:50 | Bertl | Q_: first we will do passive lens mounts only, but we are aware of the canone EF problem and we will address it, just not in the beginning
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22:51 | danieel | EF is more the issue to get the proper contacts (without ringing a bell at canon, by taking their spare parts), software wise it is easy
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22:52 | Q_ | I've been looking at this earlier today, and there seem to be descriptions of the various pins and some basic reverse engineered protocol.
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23:03 | danieel | either that, or just take a 2-3 channel scope and you figure it out pretty fast
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23:06 | se6astian | Q_: I assume you read this page: https://apertus.org/axiom-faq its indeed outdated
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23:07 | se6astian | we need to update is ASAP
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23:07 | se6astian | its still pre-crowdfunding :)
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23:07 | Bertl | Q_: yeah, we also know the protocols and pin layout, but still it requires the electrical connections and some testing, as you don't want to fry expensive lenses
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23:08 | danieel | how could you fry it if you know the pins and protocol?
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23:09 | wescotte | Couple comments on the crowdfunding.. The video has one person saying âItâs been eight years since the Apertus project was bornâ... I've been following the project since the Elphel days so I a decent sense of all that's been acomplished. However, you might want to list some specific milestones the project has achieved or have a brief history of the project. Perhaps people are thinking 8 years and no real p
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23:09 | wescotte | rototype yet? why would I fund this?! and have no sense of all the work that has been done so far.
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23:09 | Bertl | danieel: ask the magic lantern folks about that ...
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23:09 | danieel | anyway from the times of CD burners which had upgradable fw and the drives got destroyed by some linux command triggering the flash erase is a saying that if the hardware can be destroyed by software, it just deserves to be destroyed
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23:10 | Bertl | well, we do not want to destroy the lens systems of future AXIOM Beta owners on purpose
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23:10 | wescotte | Also, I think most people hear open source they think software. I don't think people really understand what open source in hardware means. I think it might be good to address what open source hardware really means.
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23:13 | miroslav | left the channel | |
23:26 | Bertl | danieel: tell me, why can't you simply be productive and contribute to the project, maybe with constructive criticism, why do you have to spread fud and misinformation by oracling misleading statements instead? is it in your nature? is it something you cannot stop?
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23:28 | se6astian | wescotte: agreed we should put some excerpt and link to https://apertus.org/history into the campaign
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23:29 | intracube | are there donate buttons for supporters to put on their blogs/websites?
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23:32 | se6astian | intracube: check here: https://apertus.org/donate
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23:34 | intracube | aombk: ah right
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23:37 | se6astian | ok time for bed
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23:38 | se6astian | next crowdfunding update about experimental raw HDMI recording will be released tomorrow
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23:38 | Bertl | have a good one se6astian!
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23:40 | se6astian | thanks!
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23:41 | se6astian | good night!
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23:42 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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00:28 | DaFred_ | good night!
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00:57 | Paperhat | left the channel |