Current Server Time: 04:18 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/09/22

Timezone: UTC


00:01
wescotte_
trying to wrap my head around this...
00:03
wescotte_
If you can generate an image from any interval doesn't mean you'll have a decently exposure photo for any length right? I mean it's not like you get infinite slow motion from it right?
00:04
FergusL
alexML_: are you Alex from Magic Lantern ?
00:19
Bertl
yes, he is
00:20
derWalter
hey guys i ll try to stop procrastinating from now on, so you can reach me per email, i wont be here that much ^^
00:21
derWalter
left the channel
00:31
FergusL
hey, nice to see him around here hehe
00:33
Kantio
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00:33
Kantio
hi
00:37
Kantio
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00:42
wescotte_
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01:46
anton__
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01:49
anton__
Hi, I hear the question "why?" Me: software developer, paid EUR350. Why? Like the idea a lot. I don't need to shoot much except home video. Want to access best tech (like Red Epic) for peanut price. Like to dream - maybe I get to help with the project and later on sometime go work with video more seriously, it's so much more interesting than my good-for-nothing java job. And hardware is more interesting. But then I'm not even sure I
01:49
anton__
keep hoping - maybe it'll end up cheaper - what's there to cost EUR1300 apart from sensor.
01:49
anton__
More interested in the Gamma maybe :) for actual purchase that is
01:51
anton__
Also I hope that once you release Beta the chinese will take your blueprints and make the same but cheaper, drive the prices down :) And you'll end up making money consulting people who actually use Axiom cameras
01:51
anton__
I hope for a full eco-system to grow around your designs
01:52
FergusL
hahaha
01:52
FergusL
not sure about the chinese mock up
01:52
anton__
I think the story is about talking people into paying EUR350 for a world where Gamma will exist. It's about Gamma not Beta.
01:52
anton__
FergusL: why not? if it's open hardware anybody can make them right?
01:53
FergusL
anybody is allowed to, but not anybody has the means to
01:53
FergusL
the final product will be very high end engineering grade
01:55
anton__
FergusL: I want to live in a world where Gamma is released and I can see with my own eyes if the chenese do it or not :)
01:56
anton__
btw slightly off topic now that the campaign is in danger - I'd much rather see Beta with metal case, I'd see the processor chip attached on thermal paste to the back of the camera and no fan if possible.. and some mounting points on the metal case - like the case being its own cage
01:57
Wescotte
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01:58
anton__
FergusL: in a way I'd say that if the chinese don't make a copy then the project hasn't achieved all of its goals. Open hardware is about anybody being able to repeat. If it can not be repeated -- well maybe it's a wrong design?
02:01
anton__
also may be not the most important topic right now - but is Axiom and/or Apertus trademarks being properly looked after? what apache software foundation does - anybody can use the code but not everybody can use their trademark
02:02
anton__
if not done already their experience can probably be used in terms of brand/trademark management
02:09
intracube
anton__: the chinese are already getting in on the action: http://www.kinefinity.tv/cameras/kineraw-kinemini/
02:09
intracube
hi FergusL
02:10
sb0__
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sb0__
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02:33
anton__
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02:34
Bertl
anton__: I think the chinese are already making copies, but it is not our aim to endorse dubious working conditions and child labor, on the contrary, we advocate fair trade and fair labor
05:10
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
05:10
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
05:34
Wescotte
left the channel
07:06
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
07:07
se6astian
good morning
08:31
danieel
left the channel
08:42
se6astian
new article
08:42
se6astian
http://www.gizmodo.de/2014/09/22/axiom-beta-die-open-source-filmkamera.html
08:47
danieel
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09:08
Umibuta
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09:08
Umibuta_
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09:12
Umibuta
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09:15
Umibuta_
On the topic of promoting Beta/Gamma. For me I understand Apertus Team does not want to over-promise.
09:16
Umibuta_
I appreciate the honest approach. But it is a little discouraging not knowing if there will be a Gamma.
09:17
Umibuta_
Doubts that i had were mainly how the upgrade path will be from Beta to Gamma.
09:21
Umibuta_
It does pull me back that it seems that the only thing that I can salvage might be the sensor. Also, what are the benefits of supporting Beta..
09:24
Umibuta_
if I could buy the Gamma at a little over upgrade plus the cost of Beta (might be a lot more but I am just making wild guesses convincing myself)
09:29
Umibuta_
Might sound ironical but the reason that for me funding this project is that there might not be a Gamma (touch wood). Being an open camera I am sure there will be developements beyond the present disclosed capability of Beta.
09:32
Umibuta_
I guess it woud help encourage a few more supporters if there are more common grounds between Beta and Gamma othere than the sensor.
09:33
tyrone_
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09:33
tyrone_
hi all...
09:34
Umibuta_
If Beta and Gamma are to be of different form factor then the upgrade would mean sending the camera back for a full overhaul.
09:34
Umibuta_
Hi Tyrone.
09:35
tyrone_
umibuta_ the main reason of the beta is to get to code work on a bigger scale, the other thing is at the moment everybody works sparetime to get a speed up it's necessary to work full time. :-)
09:35
tyrone_
btw hi Umibuta_ :-)
09:36
Umibuta_
I am just speaking my mind about why I support and what's stopping me.
09:36
tyrone_
when there is no beta funding ther wont be soon a gamma except there will be the EU funding... but that is still going on.
09:37
Umibuta_
I cannot contribute technically these are the only contributions I can dish out..... :(
09:37
tyrone_
Umibuta_ that's your right... :-)
09:38
tyrone_
it's nice to see you here and discuss the subject thats also helps...
09:41
Umibuta_
Beneath all these, I am also trying to secretly fishing for more information about Beta/Gamma
09:42
tyrone_
info about the gamma it's just a concept at the moment. the module concept is a nice idea but the best and cost effective way is still open.
09:44
Umibuta_
What would the consequences be to push back the delivery date, so as to achieve smoother transition between Beta and Gamma. Putting aside the funding deadline.
09:44
tyrone_
there where some indeas with some vita fmc conncectors but they will cost at least 50$ per module(male / female) and that will put the overal cost much up.
09:44
se6astian
maybe its OK to mention gamma in some way, but it has to be done very carefully
09:44
se6astian
people are used to "product announcements"
09:45
tyrone_
when the conncectors ale costing more then the fpga then we have to find another solution...
09:45
se6astian
not sony talking of things it might want to try in a few years :)
09:47
Umibuta_
I think Apertus has been honest about your delivery. This is a little of a chicken and egg thing.
09:50
tyrone_
to be fair is importand then today everbody can say we can do this and that but on the end it's important what you can deliver... and here apertus try's to be realistic....
09:51
Umibuta_
Disclosing what you are trying and not delivering vs disclosing what is proven but lesser fanfare
09:52
Umibuta_
be right back
09:53
tyrone_
i also have go quick my work is waiting....
10:08
se6astian
maybe we can do this as video interview
10:09
se6astian
as I think with text it will be long and difficult
10:09
se6astian
because people might read only a few lines
10:09
se6astian
and get a wrong impression
10:20
Umibuta_
se6astian: Will Gamma be still using the zedboard? or it's only being used in beta.
10:28
se6astian
possibly the picozed
10:28
se6astian
but we will only be able to confirm that once we tested the picozed
10:28
se6astian
it was introduced one day after we launched the campaign
10:28
se6astian
and still has 8 weeks lead time
10:30
Umibuta_
I read somewhere in the log that it might be a candidate for Beta as well?
10:40
se6astian
yes its largly compatible to the microzed
10:40
se6astian
so herbert is thinking about supporting it with an adapter PCB
11:01
Wescotte
joined the channel
11:05
se6astian
gotta go
11:05
se6astian
bbs
11:05
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
11:16
Umibuta_
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11:36
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
11:38
DaFred
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11:39
anton4
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11:41
anton4
Hi. Idea: what if the perk for EUR350 contribution was - get Axiom Beta _or_ Gamma at cost? I was actually considering asking you for this change when time comess for myself. But maybee it could be useful for the campaign as well?
11:43
anton4
I am trying to help with publicity. However the message which I am rying to get across is - a wonderful camera ecosystem is being created and contributions are being taken to that end, oh btw contributions also entitle you to buy a camera at cost
11:48
anton4
I am also trying to figure out how close http://www.openssd-project.org are to deliverin their pcie Xilinx 7045 based prototype ssd board with 512Gb nand. If that thing was available it could be used for internal storage in different ways. One way would be to incorporate their FPGA designs into the main Axiom board buy NAND module SODIMMs from them and connect that NAND directly to the main Xilinx possibly via pins intended for that high spe
11:50
anton4
No response to my emails so far from the Korean university guys behind openssd project
11:51
anton4
Hmm this web irc log is truncating very long messages.
11:53
DaFred
Sounds like a good idea. Nobody knows the costs for Gamma but the money comes in. But how many Betas should be built then? Many contributors will be waiting for the Gamma then and the goal is to bring the hardware to the developers. Maybe all potential developers have contributed already...
11:56
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
11:56
Bertl
mornign folks!
11:57
danieel
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11:57
anton4
left the channel
11:58
Bertl
anton4: it's not the web irc log, there is a message limit on IRC
11:59
Bertl
also an SSD based on 7045 can per definition not be open, as the 7045 requires a hefty license from Xilinx
12:00
Bertl
(which is why we restrict ourselves to 7010/20/30 and recently 7015, which is also covered by the webpack)
12:04
anton4
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12:04
anton4
Berl: I know about webpack andd 7045. This is one of my questions to the univercity guys. They also promise pcie. Not sure if they expect.to use any proprietery IP logic for that. BUT if they release their own FPGA/arm code under gpl this may be good enough. We may run their code on the main Xilinx chip
12:05
Bertl
did you find the source for the firmware anywhere?
12:05
anton4
And I was also dreaming of ordering nand sodimm modules.via them. That is if they are not vaporware
12:06
anton4
No, nothing, just a promise to deliver in Q4 2014
12:07
Bertl
so basically we are looking at a closed source, highly proprietary development from korea? which rides the open source train :)
12:07
anton4
They have some firmware for another irrelevant ssd controller which they worked on earlier
12:07
Bertl
but hey, maybe they will open up sooner or later ... I'd say, till then, not very interesting
12:08
anton4
To me it looks like we are looking at not known when available gpl.software from some uni guys
12:10
danieel
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12:10
anton4
They are not riding open source train, the kits are not availablee for sale either yet
12:12
danieel
would be quite expensive given a 7045 being in there
12:13
DaFred
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12:15
anton4
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12:21
anton6
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12:21
anton6
danieel: indeed, do not understand their choice
12:22
danieel
why? they are doing R&D for flash algorithms...
12:26
anton6
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12:27
anton7
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12:27
tyrone_
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12:27
anton7
danieel: anyway, i'm still hoping for some kind of communication with them; they presented the project in Aug on a conference and promise to deliver in Q4... lets see what comes of it.. always wanted an open software ssd btw :)
12:30
Bertl
keep us updated if they reply
12:31
anton7
Bertl: sure
12:33
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
12:33
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
12:57
jucar
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jucar
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13:29
anton7
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13:49
Wescotte
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14:25
theuberkevlar
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14:37
cecilff
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14:37
cecilff
hello!
14:38
mars_
hi cecilff
14:40
cecilff
Hi! well, I don't understand the pricing of the shipment of the axiom beta
14:40
cecilff
does anybody know?
14:40
cecilff
why is it so expensive?
14:43
Juicyfruit
cecilff, well the sensor and the zedboard together make up for a good chunk of the price as far as I am aware
14:44
se6astian
correct the image sensor is the most expensive component
15:06
aombk
he is talking about the shipment cost
15:10
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
15:16
DaFred
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15:20
cecilff
Yes, I thougt the price of the sensor was somehow lowered, but I guess the 1900 Euro is the price of the sensor and cannot be avoided...
15:24
cecilff
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15:43
wescotte
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16:44
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
16:44
Bertl
back now ...
16:54
sebix
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17:02
sebix
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17:27
sebix
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17:39
Bertl
hey sebix! what's up?
17:52
Bertl
it seems quiet ... I guess I'll take a nap then ... bbl
17:52
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
18:50
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
19:03
philippej
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19:05
hns
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19:06
philippej
hi everyone !
19:06
hns
changed nick to: Guest23022
19:07
Guest23022
changed nick to: miroslav
19:07
philippej
according to teardown iphone assembly cost is $11 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-deYWZKji4Wk/VCBl8HQC-BI/AAAAAAAAKSw/CFKvaqhJifw/s1600/iPhone-Comparison.png
19:14
DaFred_
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19:17
DaFred
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19:28
anton3
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19:29
anton3
Hi Sebastian, sorry for being repeatetive, but if I may reiterate my vision for the rest of the campaign
19:30
anton4
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19:30
anton4
We are going to pitch media a bit more
19:31
anton4
We are going to talk to some more bloggers
19:31
anton4
And as we do that un my view the best expression of our view is this:
19:33
anton4
We are revolutionising the world. We are (if things work out) building a whole new ecosystem with its own rules of the game
19:33
se6astian
sorry, very occupied currenly
19:33
se6astian
do you want me feedback? then best email me
19:34
anton4
No worries, I just want to pore out what I have in me
19:34
anton3
left the channel
19:35
anton4
...to continue where I left...
19:35
anton4
Supporting the project is a noble thing to do, it makes you part of the new world
19:36
philippej
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19:36
anton4
And incidentally yeah you can also buy a camera at cost if you support us now
19:37
anton4
But thats not the main incentive the main are the stars ahead
19:41
anton4
And if we view it like this then it makes sense to say that its not just Beta, you can buy any one camera from us. Its a lifelong perk. You can spend it on Beta or on Gamma or on any other future camera. You can avoid soending it all and just keep (maybe in the form of anice certificate) on the wall. Who knows maybe in a hundred years time they will be a valyable collectors item sold on auctions
19:42
anton4
Like things from Tutanic. A certificate sayung "yes i was partial to the revolution"
19:44
anton4
Or maybe smb will trade it in 100 years time for buying a camera of that day for symbolic price - of course if there still is a company at that time willing to honour its founder's pledge
19:46
anton4
These things make me emitional, like the scene from the Lord of the Rings when a detachment of elfs come to fight alongside humans to honour a promise given centuries ago
19:47
anton4
Be the Elfs, make a legend
19:48
anton4
That will inspire people and will also de-emphasisr Beta which is indeed not the Ultimate Camera but more of a stepping stone
19:48
anton4
Done :)
19:50
se6astian
sounds good :)
19:51
se6astian
now the tricky part: how can we get that message across to people?
20:00
anton4
I only see two ways - as a company update and via the articles which we manage to get out in the time remaining.
20:01
anton4
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20:01
francesco_
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20:02
anton4
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20:03
se6astian
that is the channel, I am more thinking about the way to communicate this
20:03
anton4
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20:03
anton4
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20:03
se6astian
the content
20:04
anton4
Was there a plan for a video interview? Then via the interview as well
20:04
sebix
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20:06
anton4
BTW I have confidence in you guys. You will go on no matter what. Even if the campaign fails. You've come too far :) Say that in the interview as well
20:08
se6astian
I had the idea of an interview indeed
20:08
se6astian
but while I do believe in everything you said I am not sure I can get it across well
20:08
se6astian
I am not an actor ... :(
20:08
se6astian
and english is also not my native language
20:09
se6astian
so it might feel strange :)
20:12
anton4
BTW you may be able to recover part of the donations lost if the campaign fails. Send out a last update before it closes announcing that people can send the money to you ditectly - same amount same perk. Any one camera at cost for so long as the project/company is alive. Its like homebrew indiegogo on your website :)
20:17
anton4
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20:26
francesco_
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20:42
Paperhat
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20:45
Paperhat
se6astian: Anything that the team would like us, the average supporters, to do to help out besides sharing the campaign?
20:50
se6astian
you can have a critical eye on the campaign
20:50
se6astian
ask yourself what people would still be interested to learn about it
20:50
se6astian
what is not clear so far
20:50
miroslav
left the channel
20:50
se6astian
what are peoples doubts when they read the campaign page
20:51
Paperhat
I think the updates you've made have been very helpful so far
20:52
Paperhat
questions about size are cleared up. Spec questions are slowly clearing up.
20:52
Paperhat
people may seem to sill be confused about what specs to expect.
20:53
Paperhat
Maybe making a very tentative timeline of when planned features could be released after the beta.
20:54
se6astian
I am working on an "experimental 4k raw" explanation update now
20:54
se6astian
the timeline would be greatly influenced by what people want
20:54
Paperhat
with a caveat of course saying the timeline will be faster or slower depending on community participation
20:54
Paperhat
yeah thats true
20:54
se6astian
but maybe we can create a list of things that we would consider important on the roadmap
20:54
se6astian
that could be a nice update post
20:55
Paperhat
Roadmap is a good way of putting it
20:55
se6astian
great
20:55
Paperhat
And a few of my hesitant friends would benefit from the experimental 4k raw details
20:55
se6astian
Paperhat: are you an english native speaker?
20:55
Paperhat
yes
20:55
se6astian
perfect
20:55
Paperhat
I've helped a bit in the past
20:55
se6astian
do you want to review my update text
20:55
se6astian
check spelling/gramar
20:56
se6astian
general wording
20:56
Paperhat
I'd love to
20:56
se6astian
review it to make sure its clear to understand
20:56
se6astian
great
20:59
se6astian
I sent you a PM
20:59
se6astian
need your email address
21:02
Paperhat
i'm the student that reviewed the campaign footage.
21:02
Paperhat
i'm/I'm/
21:07
Paperhat
se6astian: Sorry I just saw your pm now.
21:09
se6astian
perfect
21:14
hns
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21:14
Paperhat
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21:14
hns
changed nick to: Guest93099
21:14
Guest93099
changed nick to: miroslav
21:22
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
21:22
Bertl
back now ...
21:22
Paperhat
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21:23
Bertl
wb Paperhat!
21:31
Q_
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21:31
ThugAim
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21:31
ThugAim
Aha!
21:35
ThugAim
saw the 4KSDI from IO Industries and thought, "So AXIOM decided on using colored parts."
21:42
danieel
but axiom is not 4k
21:45
danieel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYcSqIuqkz4 ... nice variation on apertus pitch :)
21:47
Bertl
how do you arrive at the false conclusion that AXIOM Beta would not be 4k?
21:48
Bertl
and I'm note sure I get your joke? with the youtube link
21:49
Q_
I'm confused. The page about axiom beta mentions "different lens mount options", including EF. While the FAQ says Nikon F-mount only. I've read somewhere that it's passive only but can't find it now anymore. EF lenses (like the FAQ says) would need electronics for the aperture control. Can someone clarify?
21:49
danieel
you cant connect it to a standard 4k device nor to provide an internal recorder of 4k video
21:49
Bertl
why do you say that?
21:49
danieel
the joke is 'f*ck it, i quit' by the reporter
21:50
danieel
is there?
21:50
Bertl
Q_: first we will do passive lens mounts only, but we are aware of the canone EF problem and we will address it, just not in the beginning
21:51
danieel
EF is more the issue to get the proper contacts (without ringing a bell at canon, by taking their spare parts), software wise it is easy
21:52
Q_
I've been looking at this earlier today, and there seem to be descriptions of the various pins and some basic reverse engineered protocol.
22:03
danieel
either that, or just take a 2-3 channel scope and you figure it out pretty fast
22:06
se6astian
Q_: I assume you read this page: https://apertus.org/axiom-faq its indeed outdated
22:07
se6astian
we need to update is ASAP
22:07
se6astian
its still pre-crowdfunding :)
22:07
Bertl
Q_: yeah, we also know the protocols and pin layout, but still it requires the electrical connections and some testing, as you don't want to fry expensive lenses
22:08
danieel
how could you fry it if you know the pins and protocol?
22:09
wescotte
Couple comments on the crowdfunding.. The video has one person saying “It’s been eight years since the Apertus project was born”... I've been following the project since the Elphel days so I a decent sense of all that's been acomplished. However, you might want to list some specific milestones the project has achieved or have a brief history of the project. Perhaps people are thinking 8 years and no real p
22:09
wescotte
rototype yet? why would I fund this?! and have no sense of all the work that has been done so far.
22:09
Bertl
danieel: ask the magic lantern folks about that ...
22:09
danieel
anyway from the times of CD burners which had upgradable fw and the drives got destroyed by some linux command triggering the flash erase is a saying that if the hardware can be destroyed by software, it just deserves to be destroyed
22:10
Bertl
well, we do not want to destroy the lens systems of future AXIOM Beta owners on purpose
22:10
wescotte
Also, I think most people hear open source they think software. I don't think people really understand what open source in hardware means. I think it might be good to address what open source hardware really means.
22:13
miroslav
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22:26
Bertl
danieel: tell me, why can't you simply be productive and contribute to the project, maybe with constructive criticism, why do you have to spread fud and misinformation by oracling misleading statements instead? is it in your nature? is it something you cannot stop?
22:28
se6astian
wescotte: agreed we should put some excerpt and link to https://apertus.org/history into the campaign
22:29
intracube
are there donate buttons for supporters to put on their blogs/websites?
22:32
se6astian
intracube: check here: https://apertus.org/donate
22:34
intracube
aombk: ah right
22:37
se6astian
ok time for bed
22:38
se6astian
next crowdfunding update about experimental raw HDMI recording will be released tomorrow
22:38
Bertl
have a good one se6astian!
22:40
se6astian
thanks!
22:41
se6astian
good night!
22:42
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
23:18
theuberkevlar
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23:28
DaFred_
good night!
23:28
DaFred_
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Paperhat
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