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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/09/21

Timezone: UTC


02:30
baldand
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02:30
baldand
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02:31
tth
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tth
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03:24
derWalter
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03:24
derWalter
good evening
03:29
derWalter
Bertl: wie lautet deine emailadresse?
03:33
Wescotte
Couple of questions... Is the beta model design essentailly complete? When the campaign is complete are you guys ready to order the parts and start assembling or are there some design details to finalize first?
03:35
Wescotte
Also, the GAMA modular design. Is the Beta essentially the "base" of this. I realize that the beta requires an external recorder but in the future if you guys design like a SSD module will it be functional with the beta?
03:35
derWalter
is testing
03:53
derWalter
the beta plattform is for testing and developing
03:54
derWalter
afaik the only part you can reuse on the gamme will be the sensor, as the beta doesent feature addons but shields, which connect from the side, not from behind. the addon interface for the gamma is not done yet.
03:54
derWalter
the main purpose of the beta and crowdfunding is to speed up and ensure high quality for the gamma
03:55
derWalter
mistakes have to be made, better make em early and a lot of them, so the first product wont be like the first BMC was :D
03:55
Wescotte
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Wescotte
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04:00
Wescotte
The Super35 is 2300 after the campaign. How much of that cost is the sensor?
04:04
Wescotte
Ah, found it on the website.. About 1000...
04:04
Wescotte
err 1300
04:18
Bertl
derWalter: hp@apertus.org
04:19
derWalter_
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04:19
derWalter_
sent
04:19
Bertl
Wescotte: no, Beta is not complete, the crowdfunding is for the development of AXIOM Beta
04:20
Bertl
but that development will be finished in about six months, given that we make the goal
04:22
derWalter
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04:38
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
04:38
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
04:45
derWalter_
goooooooooood idea
06:35
derWalter_
https://forums.adobe.com/message/6748854#6748854
07:12
dmj726
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derWalter_
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08:17
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
08:48
se6astian
good morning
08:52
sebix
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09:26
philippej
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philippej
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10:21
sb0
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11:07
sebix
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11:53
se6astian
added "as seen on:" block to the campaign page: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/5022798
11:53
se6astian
please review
11:55
se6astian
I also created some axiom button designs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A6ElumHb5MQNAouJSprBH6KXH8vp-5OJmLfCYGb6aTE/pub
11:55
se6astian
please review as well
11:56
se6astian
some things like jean connery and van damme I find funny but nobody else... :)
11:56
se6astian
other ideas for buttons much appreciated as well of course
12:07
aombk
the buttons are nice
12:08
aombk
i get pissed off by reading some comments
12:09
aombk
on the as seen on blogs
12:15
se6astian
thanks
12:15
se6astian
having angry comments is a natural side effect of big public exposure
12:15
se6astian
you should not even look at reddit if you get depressed easily :)
12:20
aombk
give me a link
12:28
se6astian
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2g01ar/axiom_beta_the_first_open_digital_cinema_camera/
12:28
se6astian
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2fsvjh/please_share_and_help_pave_the_way_for_the/
12:28
se6astian
there might be more
12:30
se6astian
we should maybe post to reddit again
12:32
se6astian
with the sample footage as main thing
12:32
se6astian
for example
12:38
aombk
i am exporting it for review. i think its ready
12:40
se6astian
great
12:45
se6astian
I also just drafted some changes to the campaign website
12:46
se6astian
please review as well, here: https://cloud.gerade.org/index.php/apps/gallery/ajax/image.php?file=88644302ffde4f6e5659627a3c8bbf32%2FAxiom%2Freview.jpg
12:46
se6astian
since there is no easy way to share drafts in indiegogo I created a screenshot
12:48
aombk
yes thats nice.
12:50
aombk
i am uploading to youtube as unlisted. any comments, tags, description, category i should use? or you think its better if i sent it to you directly?
12:51
se6astian
just send it to me in pm
12:52
aombk
dcc?
12:53
se6astian
youtube url
12:54
se6astian
another page with lots of comments btw: http://www.43rumors.com/first-4k-and-micro-four-thirds-mount-fully-open-source-camera/
12:55
se6astian
like "Ugly thing obviously designed by someone who doent know a word about desing." :)
12:55
se6astian
"Shut up....you don't even know how the word design is spelt also lol"
12:55
se6astian
the fun continues
12:56
aombk
canceled the youtube upload.
13:00
aombk
ok reauploading to youtube
13:03
se6astian
:)
13:03
sebix
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13:07
derWalter
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13:07
derWalter
good "morning" ;)
13:10
se6astian
hello there
13:21
aombk
people were not so skeptical even with digital bolex when it was proved that there was no prototype and the sample footage were actually shot by another camera that was using the same sensor bolex would use
13:21
aombk
times have changed
13:37
se6astian
true, but on the other hand DB raised 200.000USD and took full price camera preorders, we take development donations only and have a prototype already, and dont offer a full featured camera yet but a development platform
13:37
se6astian
if you sum up the at cost purchases we received already we actually raised 534.000USD already
13:40
derWalter
maybe we should have done this, but on the other hand... maybe the people wouldnt have spent that amount of money then...
13:41
derWalter
as its easier to think 350 and the camera when its ready as 2000⬠are gone and you dont know when you will get your product
13:41
derWalter
so i think this was a very clever step, as the money donated is purely for developing and not for hardware
13:42
derWalter
gosh, it is raining so much, yesterday i thought the world is at its end,.... like sirens and firefighter alarms and so forth....
13:43
derWalter
and then, boom, sunshine blue sky and out of notheing ice from the sky... weather is so creazy right now in north east of austria...
14:01
derWalter
now the anonymus donators come in :)
14:17
Wescotte
se6astian: I've attempted to start a conversation about the camera on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Filmmakers/comments/2gy5bo/do_you_want_an_open_source_hardwaresoftware/ and http://www.reddit.com/r/Cameras/comments/2gy5z4/do_you_want_an_open_source_hardwaresoftware/
14:19
se6astian
great!
14:19
se6astian
lets see how it develops :)
14:19
Wescotte
Digital Bolex has the Bolex brand name going for it. Also, wasn't it announced right around the raw craze of Magic Latern? That probably got a lot of support
14:22
Wescotte
Kickstarter vs IndieGoGo might have also played a more significant factor too..
14:23
Wescotte
I'm actually really surprised /r/filmmakers hasn't really responded to it. They love talking about cameras but discussion hasn't gotten any traction. Either they have no idea what it is or just don't care.
14:24
se6astian
:)
14:29
Wescotte
The only real issue I can come up with why somebody would have supported a Digital Bolex but not an Axiom is Axiom requires an external recorder.
14:34
intracube
hello
14:35
intracube
I was wondering what work is still do be done on the fixed pattern noise correction
14:36
intracube
as I noticed it was still present in the ungraded .mxf video
14:45
ThatCantBe
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15:13
aombk
intracube you download a fixed pattern noise correction tiff and you subtract it
15:13
aombk
i believe this will be done internally in the released beta
15:19
Wescotte
is fixed noise consistent across every sensor of the same model or is it something each user will have to generate a tiff for on their own under controlled lighting conditions?
15:25
aombk
every sensor will have its own pattern that needs correction. i am not sure whether apertus team will provide the the correction image for each sensor or whether eash user will have to do this by himself
15:25
aombk
se6astian?
15:29
derWalter
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15:30
intracube
aombk: yep, somewhere on the apertus site or fileserver there was an example FPN .tif for the alpha cam
15:30
intracube
but I didn't manage to make much of an improvement when I tried subtracting it in Blender's compositor
15:31
aombk
you tried it with the ungraded mxf file right?
15:31
intracube
I was wondering if the ungraded test footage had the FPN subtracted and if there was still some improvement needed in that technique to make the noise invisible
15:32
aombk
yes i think the mcf file has fpn alread subtracted
15:32
intracube
aombk: yet the noise pattern is still somewhat visible
15:33
aombk
maybe the pattern noise varies according to parameters
15:33
intracube
^ that's what I was wondering
15:33
aombk
like gain f stop etc
15:33
intracube
which would be a paint to correct for
15:33
aombk
not fstop i mean apperture speed
15:34
aombk
not really
15:34
aombk
it can be done internally and autamatically
15:34
intracube
yup
15:35
aombk
and even if this not happens at realease i think it will happen some days after by someone of the team or the community
15:52
aombk
actually you know, all cameras do this process internally
15:54
aombk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylF4Y0t59Xw
16:06
se6astian
the ungraded footage already had fpn profile subtracted
16:06
se6astian
but the profile is not 100% perfect
16:06
se6astian
as it will change with gain, exposure time, sensor temperature, etc.
16:07
se6astian
the pattern is unique per sensor and changes with the said parameters
16:07
intracube
se6astian: are there any ways to get the subtraction closer to perfect? :)
16:08
se6astian
in the FPGA processing pipeline we can already compensate FPN entirely, the problem is measuring the profile properly and adapting it when the parameters change
16:08
se6astian
we didnt have time/resources to focus on the issue properly
16:08
intracube
yeah, it sounds tricky :/
16:08
se6astian
but I am confident we will be able to benchmark and eliminate it properly with the beta
16:09
se6astian
especially with some insight into how Canon does it :)
16:22
sebix
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16:25
intracube
heh
16:29
derWalter
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16:31
derWalter
hey guys, i think we should switch strategy and promote the gamma version instead of the beta version. instead of "selling" beta cameras, collect money for the developmentprocess (which is the beta in fact!) so we could advertise modular design, resell older parts and buy new ones, 4k raw, xlr hq sound module and so forth... so people see the PATH and not just the one product (the beta) which isnt that great over all.... i guess
16:31
derWalter
just my cents, what do you think about it?
16:33
se6astian
we dont know when gamma will be ready and we dont know what it will be able to do
16:33
se6astian
advertizing it now would be pure guessing
16:35
derWalter
as we austrians say: i ll be back
16:36
derWalter
(but modular design is for sure, 4k raw is for sure, 12bit is for sure, 12 stops is for sure, special sensors with high fps are for sure, upgradepath to 8k, maybe also sure, i dont know whats coming up on the hardwareside, but i would guess that u could say that its for sure that it will be possible to upgrade once the sensors are available, an upgradePATH IS sure :D)
16:38
derWalter
the beta is just a tile on the path to the gamma, a very very important one, but i wouldnt sell it as a standalone product, as thats not what it is, but the whole crowdfuning campaign tries to sell the beta version instead of the development of the gamma...
16:40
derWalter
all the specs, everything is regarding to the beta version, but not to the big goal on the horizon, where we want to go with that beta development, i guess thats a dealbreaker for everyone who has just a look at it now. (for the ppl who should donate, its not useable, why should they donate then? for what? what are they giving money for?)
16:40
derWalter
anyhow, i ve to leave, cu later
16:40
derWalter
will be back at ... 23 ? i hope ...
16:44
seku
tomorrow morning should be fun.. holiday trip to canada starts.
16:44
seku
will have to take my trusty 5D MLed with me... id rather have taken an axiom :)
16:44
derWalter
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16:53
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
16:54
Bertl
evening folks!
17:08
se6astian
hello!
17:09
seku
hi Bertl :)
17:12
seku
watched a video about some cinematographers today that mirror video to two alexas ... in order to maximise dynamic range to 20stops or more
17:15
Wescotte
seku: link?
17:16
seku
http://prolost.com/blog/ibc2014
17:16
seku
just a small mention of that he is doing it. no real explanation, or how he does it
17:16
seku
all in view of dolby vision iirc
17:18
seku
too bad they didnt get into dolby vision postprocessing, even tho it was asked as a question to the panel
17:23
seku
around minute 4 he makes the statement
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seku
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seku
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17:33
seku
*back* had to restart
17:43
theuberkevlar
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18:05
Wescotte
seku: sounds like they are running two synced cameras at difference exposures with a beam splitter and then combining the image in post.
18:14
seku
yep, sounds like that
18:19
danieel
well, that is the only correct way to get HDR, where the motion blur is same for both channels
18:20
Bertl
with different exposure the motion blur will not we the same
18:20
Bertl
*exposures
18:20
danieel
you can use ND
18:24
Wescotte
Isn't motion blur created by the shutter speed/angle? So changing the aperture wouldn't affect motion blur?
18:24
seku
it changes your depth of field tho
18:25
danieel
you cant change aperture on a mirror rig, the objects would be differently sharp (you change DOF by aperture)
18:26
Wescotte
ah makes sense
18:26
danieel
it is very visible in the alpha footage that it was not shot by a pro - there are scenes where the short exposure is ruining the look
18:26
danieel
correct way would be to use ND filters
18:26
Wescotte
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18:34
seku
that might also be a mighty interesting diy way with the axiom
18:35
seku
altho i wonder what alex and the team will be able to get out of the chip first
18:35
theuberkevlar
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19:20
intracube
I've seen discussion on here about different profiles for the sensor (Log mode etc)
19:20
intracube
Does this happen in analog with the raw voltages on the sensor or later in digital space?
19:22
Bertl
I'm not aware of a sensor which does 'analog profiles'
19:24
intracube
Bertl: ah ok. I don't know about this area at all :)
19:24
wescotte
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19:25
intracube
would the FPN processing happen before or after the profile adjustment in the digital chain?
19:26
Bertl
FPN usually is the first in the image pipeline
19:26
seku
maybe analog amplification is the question?
19:26
Bertl
because you want to get rid of the sensor errors early
19:26
intracube
that's what I was wondering. otherwise any changes to the profile would make subtraction a lot more difficult
19:27
intracube
seku: I don't mean gain control/exposure. I mean changing to a non-linear response curve, like Log
19:28
intracube
as Bertl says, that's done in digital space
19:28
seku
ah, my misunderstanding, i thought you meant something like ISO levels. never heard of anything like log curves or so on a sensor level :D
19:28
intracube
wasn't sure if it was even possible :P
19:28
Bertl
as basically everybody interested in the AXIOM Beta is also interested in the CMOSIS sensor, the best source for everything sensor is the datasheet :)
19:28
Bertl
you can read up on all the different (HDR) modes and how to configure them there
19:28
intracube
polite way of saying RTFM :P
19:28
intracube
heh
19:29
seku
i did read the datasheet, well the HDR part. im just not knowlegeable enough to understand it all, or put it into perspective what can be done :D
19:30
seku
fun nevertheless
19:30
se6astian
and it actually is a log mode applied on a sensor level if you are refering to the PLR HDR mode
19:31
seku
*shrugs* i didnt even understand that then
19:31
Bertl
not log
19:31
Bertl
but it wouldn't hurt to discuss features like the HDR modes here on the channel
19:31
se6astian
pseudo log :)
19:32
Bertl
piecewise linear is not log, never will be
19:33
Bertl
it is just breaking down the bitrange into up to three linear areas with different exposures
19:33
seku
just you say. thats something major :)
19:34
Bertl
the tricky part is that they actually overlap
19:34
seku
linearising the linear bits, i guess...
19:34
seku
but thats something where the axiom can proove that opensource brings something to the table... as the blackmagic and cion use the same sensor.
19:35
seku
afaik they dont even probe the HDR capabilities of the sensor?
19:36
seku
well, maybe aja does somehow, if they claim 12 stops... dunno.
19:39
seku
the thought that kinda blowed my mind was something you wrote about in the campaign about. ... configurable dynamic range. like with a knob. (and somewhere i imagined that one day, that process could be made automatic, so the camera would configure the sensor to use the dynamic range it needs per scene)
19:39
seku
well, fun thoughts ... but attainable with open source i presume.
19:40
alexML_
seku: auto ettr does it ;)
19:40
seku
alexML_, exactly thats where i got that dream idea from. i love autoETTR :D
19:41
alexML_
yeah, I'll rewrite the algorithm to make use of the latest sensor findings
19:41
seku
tomorrow ill go to canada, with my trusty 5d alongside, and 3 64gbyte lexars ... it shall be fun
19:41
alexML_
btw, have a link showing that blackmagic and cion use the same sensor?
19:42
alexML_
or it's just a good guess?
19:42
troy_s
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19:43
seku
maybe i jumped to conclusions or trusted blogs too much ... didnt even question that, sorry
19:45
seku
i guess it were threads like these : http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21206
19:45
seku
but you are right, no proof.
19:45
seku
even if its the cmv12000, might be another version
19:49
seku
i will try to read up some more about this
19:50
seku
after holidays :)
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seku
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yuyo
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yuyo
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21:08
intracube
does anyone know how to do formatted quotes on slashdot? I can't find any info on this
21:08
intracube
<quote></quote> tags don't seem to work beyond the comment preview
21:11
wescotte
are you in html editing mode?
21:12
wescotte
click your account->posting and you can change the mode.
21:13
heyhey
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heyhey
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21:18
intracube
wescotte: I was on the beta version of the site - and it seems a buggy mess
21:18
intracube
just switched to classic. comment post mode is set to HTML
21:19
wescotte
you might want plaintext and not html. with html mode you have to <br/> but plaintext is same as html but <br/> is automatic.
21:19
intracube
thanks, I'll give that a try
21:28
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wescotte
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22:01
derWalter
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22:01
derWalter
aaaaaaaaaaah, so close
22:01
derWalter
tried to make it at 23:XX
22:02
theuberkevlar
I have to agree with you about doing more to promote the Gamma.
22:03
theuberkevlar
Right now it's not very clear that the main purpose/end result of supporting this development phase is something like the Gamma.
22:05
se6astian
thats true, we didnt mention it at all, actually to avoid confusion
22:06
theuberkevlar
Maybe we should start using a slogan like "Help us to develop the camera of your dreams." Or "Support the development of the ultimate camera and purchase a development kit."
22:06
se6astian
and to not give all people the impression that its better to wait for gamma anyway :)
22:07
theuberkevlar
The oculus rift was very clear that their beta products were for development only, but people still got really excited about purchasing to test and develop with them.
22:07
theuberkevlar
The discount on the Beta combined with the upgrade path I think is a big enough incentive for many to purchase now.
22:09
theuberkevlar
But only if the upgrade path is a little more clear for potential buyers.
22:12
derWalter
re, just read the backlog
22:13
derWalter
nice quote about the oculus
22:13
derWalter
and if the people just donate a lot of â¬â¬â¬ its still okay
22:15
derWalter
if to many buy the beta this could even backfire
22:15
derWalter
as its an developing instrument
22:15
derWalter
its a diy starter package :)
22:16
theuberkevlar
For example: all the campaign says is exclusive upgrade pathMaybe Beta supporters should be offerd an at cost or near cost upgrade as well?
22:16
derWalter
yep
22:16
theuberkevlar
Sorry, bad punctuation.
22:16
theuberkevlar
Also the reuse of the sensor is mentioned
22:17
derWalter
what would really break it would be something like 500 early bird slots, for people who can upgrade for lifetime for material cost
22:17
derWalter
or so
22:17
derWalter
but sell those for really expensive
22:18
derWalter
so you have some 300-500 early adopters for ever to test the products on and with them, but for that they pay just material cost. they pay to testing but getting everything erlier than everyone else
22:19
se6astian
interesting idea
22:20
se6astian
but I have trouble to promise things for the distant future
22:20
se6astian
"lifetime" is like the most distant future we can offer :)
22:21
se6astian
"hey I got the 300⬠perk 50 years ago young man" :)
22:21
derWalter
is it technically possible to turn an hdmi out into a hdmi in :D?
22:21
tth
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tth
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22:22
derWalter
well, one has to think it trough, but this could be kind of a "licence" which can be sold
22:23
derWalter
basically for a company those guys are good and no loss at all
22:23
derWalter
as they act as beta testers all the time
22:23
derWalter
but lets call em early adopters
22:23
derWalter
usually such people get paid
22:24
derWalter
imagine what would happen if nikon, canon, sony or red would announce an auction for such a thing :D
22:24
derWalter
no more erlkönig anymore
22:25
theuberkevlar
Slight topic shift. I've been reading up some crowd-funding stuff. And the one of the things that gets driven in over and over again is using scarcity to drive demand.
22:25
theuberkevlar
I think that the second collection of beta 35s may have been added just a little too soon.
22:27
theuberkevlar
So now to counter that we should really try to push the fact that there are not many available. Maybe reduce the number of 4/3 dramatically as well.
22:29
derWalter
mhhh,... jo
22:29
derWalter
http://www.aldi.medion.com/md98811/nord/
22:29
derWalter
i would like to hack this for the axiom :D
22:29
derWalter
but... latency and such...
22:31
theuberkevlar
yeah
22:36
se6astian
we can edit or alter perks only as long as nobody claimed them
22:36
derWalter
weellll.... :D
22:38
Bertl
so what about getting rid of the KAC version then and maybe replace it by a CMV2k?
22:39
se6astian
that would at least make it very scarce :)
22:39
se6astian
exactly 9 units
22:40
Bertl
it doesn't look like the folks want to go with the KAC anyway, I'm pretty sure some of those 9 Units were mistakes as well
22:41
Bertl
not sure why the truesense is treated so badly, but hey, we are doing this stuff for the comunity, no point in forcing anything upon them
22:41
Bertl
*community
22:41
derWalter
i took one, after asking if i could change it later on to get a s35 instead, so folks would have one more available :D
22:42
derWalter
and its cheaper and got better dr and... well...
22:45
derWalter
cause everyone reads 35mm 300 fps
22:45
derWalter
global shutter
22:45
theuberkevlar
Nobody has taken the 4/3, may as well try the other (CMV2k)
22:46
derWalter
mhhh well its hard to decide now anyways...
22:46
derWalter
i would love to be able to decide later on
22:46
derWalter
before you have fo order the parts for the first time
22:47
derWalter
as it is not said that those people will actually buy the beta after donating the 350
22:48
se6astian
ok time for bed
22:48
se6astian
good night!
22:51
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
22:55
derWalter
how quick to start the second campaign if this one fails? ... one has to think of christmas... would it be good to get close to it or not? the people get more money, but they also need it ...
23:03
intracube
"<Bertl> not sure why the truesense is treated so badly"
23:04
intracube
I guess because the S35 sensor is more compatible with DSLR lenses
23:04
intracube
and the shallower DoF possible
23:04
intracube
that's why I chose the S35 option
23:04
derWalter
jop
23:05
derWalter
and the 300fps are looking good on paper as well!
23:05
intracube
well, that too ;)
23:05
derWalter
and 12 stops look also good, ppl dont know what hdr means, but it will achieve 12stops, so dont care...
23:05
derWalter
its all about marketing
23:05
derWalter
i am always promoting a 4k raw 300fps camera
23:06
derWalter
promote a 4k raw 300 fps modular open hardware & software camera for around 2000â¬
23:07
intracube
are there schematics for the Beta's external case available?
23:07
intracube
front/top/side views
23:07
derWalter
i would wonder if not :D
23:08
derWalter
if there would be an DOABLE upgrade path for the gamma to 8k, i would even promote that
23:08
intracube
*available publicly
23:08
derWalter
i would say, standard edition 4k, upgrade option later on to 8k
23:08
Bertl
intracube: I'm pretty sure they are available from se6astian, please contact him, at least the 3D data should be available
23:08
intracube
Bertl: ok
23:09
Bertl
I don't think that promoting the gamma is the way to go
23:09
derWalter
why not?
23:09
derWalter
isnt that the goal?
23:09
Bertl
first, we have no idea how the gamma will look like and what it will be able to do
23:09
Bertl
that's why we are doing the Beta in the first place
23:09
intracube
derWalter: is 8K -really- needed now? only a few productions are going for 4K currently!
23:10
derWalter
now? how is talking about now? :D i am talking in about 3-6 years
23:10
Bertl
to answer that in short, no, but you remember the megapixel hype?
23:10
derWalter
beta phase will be ... 2 years from now...
23:10
derWalter
at least
23:10
intracube
derWalter: well, that's a loooong way off
23:10
derWalter
then we are fixing and developing finishing the beta
23:10
intracube
better focus on the here and now :)
23:10
derWalter
going into gamma developing phase
23:10
Bertl
I think we will be faster with the Beta and more on topic
23:10
derWalter
another year
23:11
derWalter
beta phase for the gamma start
23:11
derWalter
another year till they get shipped to the customers
23:11
derWalter
and thats where we can start talking 8k
23:11
derWalter
you would need to change the board and the sensor for that, mostlikely, because of that its called an upgradepath :) which will be available by then :)!!
23:12
derWalter
Bertl: this IS the megapixel hype :D
23:12
Bertl
yeah, just for video cameras :)
23:12
intracube
personally, I'd love a 4K FF DSLR sensor downscaled to 2k or so.
23:12
intracube
based on the same sensor tech that's in the new Sony A7s
23:12
derWalter
but the beta does not attract as much ppl as the gamma will do, and the beta is not a real product, it is a real world developing instrument for testing and experimenting
23:13
intracube
that would give awesome low light performance
23:13
intracube
dreams
23:13
derWalter
nothing like the gamma will be, and everyone (but the geeks and nerds who are really into this!) are interessted in the beta
23:13
derWalter
the people want to use the best available, and dont play guinnepigs
23:14
Bertl
derWalter: I don't think that the majority of backers are geeks and nerds
23:14
derWalter
guinea pigs
23:14
derWalter
nope, i dont think that as well
23:14
Bertl
on the contrary, I'm pretty sure most of them are not actually _developers_ at all
23:14
derWalter
but as the thole campaign is set out for selling beta pices for retailcost...
23:15
Bertl
so in my opinion, we haven't found the right combination to make the Beta interesting for developers yet
23:15
derWalter
all you would need is 100 000 ppl donating 1⬠for the development of the gamma
23:15
derWalter
which in the psysical world are the axiom beta cameras :)
23:16
derWalter
you would need around 300 people who are interessted in buying a beta version
23:17
derWalter
what kind of developers would pay 2000kâ¬+ for this?
23:17
derWalter
what would they develop for? where would they get such a money? for what?
23:17
derWalter
artists are very interessting for that matter!
23:17
derWalter
people who want to try crazy stuff
23:17
derWalter
scientists
23:17
derWalter
those are the people for the beta
23:18
derWalter
and people from the film screne who are crazy enough to give their time to experiment with a very expensive gadget
23:19
derWalter
you would need some kind of powersupply which they would have to construct, some kind of external recorder and screen
23:19
derWalter
a BMCC got all of that on board
23:20
derWalter
they got 4k raw
23:21
derWalter
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/at/products/cinemacameras
23:22
derWalter
a bmcc 4k is 2765â¬, with 4k raw internal recording and touchscreen attached. so people who are buying the beta are not doing this for the device, they must have other reasons, but what are those reasons i ask?
23:23
derWalter
Bertl: can you do polls @indie gogo?
23:24
Bertl
I don't think so, indiegogo is very limited
23:26
derWalter
mhhh, i dont want to want bad about our project, i just want to analyse it and think every hint trough
23:26
derWalter
s/want /talk
23:28
derWalter
it would be soooo interessting to know the reason why the backers choose to back this campaign and to see what was the reason for the high money amounts and the low money amounts and what kind did we attracted most at what stage of the campaign
23:31
alexML_
scientists... good point, just emailed a researcher who teaches "Cameras as Computing Systems" and asks his students to program CHDK cameras as homework
23:31
alexML_
his latest stuff: http://aggregate.org/DIT/ei20140205.pdf
23:35
derWalter
well if it fails we know how to do it better next time :)
23:38
derWalter
alexML_: OH MY GOD!! THANK U FOR THAT PDF!!!
23:38
derWalter
i am dreaming for years of this: Single-Photon Sensing
23:38
derWalter
so it is possible yes yes yes, i will sleep very good tonight:))
23:39
Bertl
hey alexML_! how's going?
23:42
derWalter
dat pdf... a wet dream :)
23:52
theuberkevlar
left the channel
23:54
wescotte_
alexML_: that pdf is basically just a different method/algorithm for recording data from a sensor right? It doesn't require different hardware does it?
23:59
Bertl
not really, it just demonstrates the concepts with existing frameworks