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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2015/04/20

Timezone: UTC


01:08
fsteinel
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fsteinel_
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01:42
troy_s
se6astian|away: Worth a read... http://www.hugs.io/2015/04/18/makerbot-and-the-osborne-effect.html
02:00
comradekingu
This is why they are dumb. The exited Foss fans by sharing, and then they didnt sell them anything ahead of time, and proceeded to close their business.
02:01
comradekingu
Shooting oneself in the foot isnt the issue so much as changing direction afterwards
02:06
troy_s
comradekingu: Osborne effect is a little bigger than that.
02:06
troy_s
It is real.
02:08
comradekingu
I know, but he is blaming it for being a muppet
02:10
comradekingu
Its like going outside, being hit by a car, and then deciding to never going outside again, while sawing off your legs.
02:11
comradekingu
Instead do revisions, let people upgrade, let people buy ahead of time, keep doing what works, and plan ahead
02:12
comradekingu
I am glad they are failing, and i used to be a fan. Hoping the remainder of the staff understand the guy in charge is a muppet and start their own business
02:14
comradekingu
He just isnt making sense either. The chinese can copy anything. The only people he is cheating out of being able to mend or alter their machines is the people who bought it. After they already paid. I dont think it will even be released for v2 when v3 comes out.
02:15
comradekingu
And that powdercoated steel cant be done by hand, the lowest of tresholds, is false. So this guy isnt a good businessman, and also either is clueless or lying.
02:17
comradekingu
There was some passion in the original osbourne. They went with sharing, but were never open. Makerbot sounds bitter, misguided and dumb.
02:18
comradekingu
They are failing and blaming osbourne-effect, when the premise isnt the same. And they are following it up by trying to take the worst part of both worlds, then it becomes true osbourne. Minus the passion.
02:19
comradekingu
What they have is a reputable brand, and a good standing. It was built on the stuff they are now tarnishing.
02:20
comradekingu
Are they the ones who have the protection on hot-bed for 3d-printer?
02:21
troy_s
Until you can point to an open project that has succeeded at any great size with the same ideological underpinnings, you might as well be making an argument for god.
02:21
troy_s
The facts are rather clear.
02:21
troy_s
A) Libre / Open projects have yet to succeed in traditional market evaluations.
02:22
comradekingu
Openpandora
02:22
troy_s
Oh please.
02:22
comradekingu
Novena laptop
02:22
troy_s
Double please.
02:22
troy_s
You can't be serious.
02:23
comradekingu
Are we unclear about "great size" and "same" ?
02:23
troy_s
B) Until such point that there is a success, the most valid failures cited are all to be treated with a degree of credence.
02:23
troy_s
Apparently
02:24
comradekingu
Im a bit tired, what are you saying?
02:25
comradekingu
Makerbot didnt fail at being libre or open, that was why it worked
02:25
comradekingu
They are failing at being closed
02:25
troy_s
Right. Worked right into bankruptcy effectively.
02:26
troy_s
I suppose we have different definitions of worked.
02:26
comradekingu
Being open, good for makerbot. Being closed, bad for makerbot.
02:26
comradekingu
Meanwhile employing a muppet to run the company, part of whats bad for them
02:27
troy_s
It is absolutely absurd to suggest, which is implied from your last statement, that being open / Libre worked, and yet a business decision was made away from that.
02:27
troy_s
It worked so well that they randomly chose to adjust a business plan, right?
02:27
comradekingu
Why is it absurd?
02:27
troy_s
Or they randomly chose to make that decision?
02:27
troy_s
It worked! Change it.
02:27
comradekingu
They made a business decision to be open, they made a business decision to be closed
02:27
troy_s
That is why it is bloody absurd.
02:27
troy_s
They made a plan AFTER achieving success? Are you delusional?
02:28
comradekingu
Would you like me to teach you?
02:28
troy_s
To draw a not too distant analogy, if you are winning a sporting event with a given play, you want to change plans to go sideways right?
02:28
comradekingu
You are making flaws on many levels here
02:28
troy_s
I get it. Makes good sense.
02:28
troy_s
No. I am tired of arguing with zealotry.
02:29
troy_s
It is easy to go to the casino with another's money. Equally easy to draw conclusions on business plans.
02:29
troy_s
Perhaps an order of a magnitude more complex when you think a business would change course on things that work.
02:30
comradekingu
Its not complex at all
02:30
troy_s
Right.
02:30
comradekingu
If you look at the story, it plays out like this
02:30
troy_s
It was a success, that is why it is on the brink of ghost.
02:30
troy_s
It was such a tremendous success they changed plans.
02:30
comradekingu
Makerbot established as open company. Sharing ideas and being open. About future products.
02:30
troy_s
Is either of those statements rational?
02:31
comradekingu
Keeping with that line of thinking, they are according to you, not changing anything, by doing the exact same, when they have a product to sell already
02:33
comradekingu
Yet that is the only thing making it analogous to the osbourne effect
02:33
comradekingu
The other being to make a business decision, the same as making the decision to not think ahead, to close the parts that were open
02:34
comradekingu
If you want to learn anything from the osbourne effect, its to not trying to re-do it
02:35
comradekingu
And the only sense that this is anologous to a libre project, is that it seems those rules also apply there, coming from that background.
02:35
troy_s
Right. So let's see something ship that doesn't suck and return to this.
02:35
troy_s
Because frankly, it is all delusional soup.
02:35
comradekingu
As soon as makerbots reputation as open is gone, it will be irrelevant as libre anything.
02:36
troy_s
LibreM laptop will be the thing to watch. To see how a grotesquely overpriced laptop fares in the open market.
02:37
comradekingu
You mean the market that already pays overpriced money for x60 thinkpads?
02:37
troy_s
Trinket level speculations on devices which cost say, fifty dollars, aren't exactly proof.
02:37
troy_s
There is a whole system there.
02:37
troy_s
Which is why most of this is infinitely more complex and difficult than it looks.
02:38
troy_s
Lenovo at least has a support infrastructure in place, and they absolutely suck at it compared to say, any high satisfaction company.
02:38
troy_s
Now what is the outlook for a handful of rookies?
02:38
troy_s
It is a challenge.
02:40
comradekingu
I dont see how you are accounting for how libre is a different concept
02:41
comradekingu
Being small is business as usual.
02:41
troy_s
See article.
02:41
comradekingu
The one i just read and commented on?
02:41
troy_s
You are outright dismissing the idea of the Osborne effect. I am more reluctant to do so.
02:42
comradekingu
No, im not. You are saying that i do.
02:42
troy_s
In a Libre system, that is a very real issue.
02:42
troy_s
One that is both interesting and non-trivial to solve.
02:43
comradekingu
And what do you think about my proposed solutions?
02:43
troy_s
Rather akin to giving out a script and expecting the same level of curiosity and satisfaction upon viewing a film.
02:43
troy_s
I am still skeptical; the issue is systemic. Perhaps not plausible to rely on the traditional / historical things that "work".
02:43
troy_s
Which makes the task potentially more complex.
02:43
troy_s
Fair?
02:44
troy_s
Example: Folks in Eurowestern culture tend to get excited when they don't know about something... It is bred into the consumer culture.
02:44
comradekingu
Well the only live examples of libre projects that do work you werent content with
02:45
troy_s
They haven't shipped a LibreM yet unless I am mistaken?
02:45
comradekingu
But the libre project that now has problems because its operated badly/going closed, whichever it is, is somewhere to look for clues?
02:45
troy_s
Uh. Yes.
02:45
comradekingu
Thats why i didnt mention them, you did
02:46
comradekingu
I said "novena laptop", you said "double please"
02:46
troy_s
Well you cited Novena, which as far as I have seen, isn't a comparison to be taken genuinely.
02:47
comradekingu
If you want an example of libre type company and camera product thats sucessful, the colorhug is it
02:47
troy_s
Colorhug absolutely fails.
02:47
comradekingu
And whatever those people that developed open source cameras did before they stopped listening to their audience
02:47
troy_s
Acknowledged by the creator.
02:47
troy_s
It is a horrid hot mess.
02:47
troy_s
Again, due to rookie mistakes.
02:48
comradekingu
Explain yourself
02:49
comradekingu
When i said success i mean it sold well, and it established a business and brand name from which to launch new, successful products. Like his latest usb-light-meter
02:49
troy_s
It doesn't work.
02:49
troy_s
Does "It doesn't work" qualify as a fair explanation?
02:50
comradekingu
You make the product, you sell it, you make the support structure, you establish business relations, you get an audience, you create a community
02:50
troy_s
It requires a spectrophotometer to generate a calibration for it.
02:50
troy_s
At which point you have say, a 3000$ spectrophotometer, why are you purchasing a 100$ product?
02:50
comradekingu
Yes, and he will probably get around to making one, with his success and all
02:50
troy_s
LMAO
02:51
troy_s
So wait... Your business plan is to build a community willing to buy your next product when your first product doesn't work.
02:51
troy_s
I get it.
02:51
troy_s
Now I am a Foucault believer, but that stretches my definitions of success.
02:52
comradekingu
No, thats what you are saying "my business plan is". I dont know what you mean, but its different from me saying something
02:53
comradekingu
People are buying both his products. I dont think that would have been the case if it was a regular company.
02:54
comradekingu
Or if hughes was just someone from the street
02:54
comradekingu
And as for spectrometer, he had no problems getting people to line up for that.
02:55
comradekingu
The one product he didnt make, was a RNG-SD-card, because he discovered similar solutions were already available. Again relying on being open, and community feedback in return.
02:56
comradekingu
Duplication of efforts avoided. Because those other projects were also not developed while hidden away somewhere
02:56
comradekingu
And dare i say it, successful at what they tried to do.
02:57
comradekingu
Now launching a perfect product the first time around isnt easy, its a learning process. Bunnie has launched products before. The openpandora project has launched projects before
02:58
comradekingu
The novena could never have been a closed source project. And the openpandora project wouldnt exist if it wasnt open, and would die if it tried to close
02:59
comradekingu
Half of it did. The other half, being a smarter guy, is open. And can launch a new similar product, without the first one going out of demand.
02:59
comradekingu
That is the definition of osbourne-effect. And its not proving to be detrimental.
03:00
comradekingu
Anyway, the die is cast for the apertus project. Closing anything now is known to be bad in the case of makerbot. Also the roadmap for many cameras ahead are clear.
03:02
comradekingu
When all different concepts have been made, the time comes to learn and replace them. Revisioning, keeping backward-compatibility, selling ideas along with sharing them, even partly, is the things that are planned and done now. I dont see that failing in the future
03:09
comradekingu
Where i do think apertus is making a mistake is being too similar to a regular camera company, in the way the message is sent across. It is in many places indistinguishable from an effort to do the same in a non libre way.
03:10
comradekingu
Any and all distinction that can be made from that is good, because its better. That value is directly put across to the product, and said product meets its own, and a broader audience in return.
03:13
comradekingu
This is the apertus project at times http://bidoof.thecomicseries.com/images/comics/83/e9b3038f0742df89df287a9eec3ae43e233989116.jpg
03:14
troy_s
comradekingu: Sorry went afk sir.
03:14
troy_s
comradekingu: On revisioning and backwards compatibility, how can one reconcile that with the needs of new.
03:15
comradekingu
Stay within the form-factor if it makes sense.
03:15
troy_s
That is, a design may make a good step forward by deviating from the historical design. Basic sort of design axis there.
03:15
troy_s
(And no easy answer here, not suggesting such.)
03:16
troy_s
If the design credo / ethic has a hierarchy, then it is easier to answer.
03:16
comradekingu
You can charge quite handsomely for new features if it doesnt mean buying everything again
03:17
troy_s
But if a chunk of your audience buys in under a premise, you _still_ risk alienating them, even if they were misguided in understanding.
03:17
comradekingu
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d810_tips/the_electronic_front/ the D800 doesnt have this
03:17
troy_s
(I am quite a proponent of culture and a very specific set of design ethics that let a designer (and audience) make hard decisions swiftly. See cinema camera versus newsy discussions etc.)
03:18
comradekingu
The premise is this, you pay some of it upfront, and the rest when you are comfortable with what you get. Want it early, you get alpha, want it late, you get more retail
03:18
troy_s
Still "better" is a sloppy term.
03:19
comradekingu
How does an audience make design-decisions?
03:19
troy_s
As well as again, Libre has yet to prove its worth, despite many claims.
03:19
troy_s
An audience buys into a project based on what it is.
03:19
troy_s
Sounds silly, but when a project has a vague design creed, it becomes more seductive to every audience.
03:19
comradekingu
Libre just means free
03:20
troy_s
(Many Libre apps fall to that.)
03:20
troy_s
No.
03:20
comradekingu
You can use it for free parking
03:20
troy_s
Libre is not free.
03:20
comradekingu
In spanish it is
03:20
troy_s
Libre has a very unique definition, which is different to gratis.
03:20
comradekingu
no
03:21
troy_s
Hence its more popular usage in the past years; it differentiates from English "free".
03:24
comradekingu
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03:25
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03:25
comradekingu1
heia
03:25
comradekingu1
So you can say "espacio libre de humo de tobaco"
03:25
comradekingu1
Or "cuba libre"
03:25
comradekingu1
One of them is the intended use
03:27
comradekingu1
In german frei is better, freiheitlich is the essence, but can also have other things. So GPL vs BSD however way you want to see it
03:28
troy_s
I think the general idea, although the convo went sideways, is to force a reevaluation of the English Free.
03:28
troy_s
Rather a dull investigation when we both know what it means.
03:28
troy_s
;)
03:28
comradekingu1
Also libre has some connotations to liberalism, and that isnt the same in the whole world
03:29
comradekingu1
In norwegian we say fri, and friprog. Frisoft might work in english
03:30
comradekingu1
Friware fails because it has the long i
03:31
comradekingu1
What was i thinking, im too tired
03:31
comradekingu1
Oh yes, open-source is the one that needs clarification
03:32
comradekingu1
Because its always not precise. I say OSI-open source just to make that point
03:32
comradekingu1
The bad guys are activly feeding on how people open source is a thing when it isnt
03:36
comradekingu1
Well, anyhow. Saying copyleft when its copyleft makes sense.
05:46
se6astian|away
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05:47
se6astian
good evening
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se6astian
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