Current Server Time: 07:07 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2013/11/19

Timezone: UTC


00:58
aombk
anybody knows any live video streaming solution for a linux server?
01:09
Bertl
there are a number of server solutions for linux
01:11
Bertl
the question is more what you consider live video
01:13
Bertl
VLC for example can act as a live stream server
01:18
Sasha_C
joined the channel
01:19
Bertl
wb Sasha_C!
01:24
intracube
left the channel
01:28
aombk
Bertl: i would like to do live video and audio streaming from a windows machine to a linux server and from there to the internets
01:28
Bertl
so restreaming then?
01:29
aombk
yes
01:30
aombk
i already have working icecast setup and i stream audio. it says it can do video. but i dont know how
01:30
Bertl
yeah, I was going to suggest icecast or some apache/php solution for that
01:34
aombk
it seems i am stuck with justing.tv service for now
01:34
aombk
here it is if you are interested
01:34
aombk
http://aombk.attinom.net/otr/hive/
01:36
aombk
do you experience drops?
01:46
Bertl
sorry, lynx is all I have available atm
01:48
aombk
heh. nice. ok no problem
02:09
FergusL
wow, I'm curious Bertl, tty-only computer ?
02:17
Bertl
atm, I'm in the basement, working on the lens mount
02:18
Bertl
and all I have there is a terminal, which works fine for most purposes, like IRC, mail, browsing(text)
02:19
FergusL
indeed, yes
02:19
FergusL
what kind of device ?
02:20
Bertl
a vt330
02:28
aombk
they dont build them like they used to :P
02:30
Bertl
yeah, I planned to replace it with a raspberry pi, but that project got on hold when I couldn't find a proper monitor/screen for this environment
02:44
FergusL
I bought a cheap analog video 3.5" screen for my cubieboard (~= raspberry pi) and a bluetooth kb
03:09
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/lens_mount_POM01.png
03:09
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/lens_mount_POM02.png
04:47
FergusL
Bertl: nice !
04:48
FergusL
for me it's sleep, now ! later
06:08
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
06:13
Sasha_C
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07:23
Sasha_C
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07:33
aombk_
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07:33
aombk
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08:07
PhilippeJ
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08:54
se6astian
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08:54
se6astian
morning
08:55
Sasha_C
good morning Se6astian.
08:55
dmj_nova
morning
08:55
Sasha_C
How are you today?
08:58
dmj_nova
se6astian: if you see mikkael, have him ping me
09:11
se6astian
good good
09:11
se6astian
micheal green?
09:14
PhilippeJ
morning everyone
09:15
Sasha_C
Good morning Philippe
09:15
PhilippeJ
well, "morning"
09:15
PhilippeJ
gmt+1 - centric :-)
09:15
Sasha_C
It's 8pm here in Sydney ;)
09:16
se6astian
and summer :)
09:17
Sasha_C
It'll be Summer as of December 1st
09:18
Sasha_C
But, yes the weather is already getting warmer :)
09:19
Sasha_C
Hey Sebastian, Bertl told me earlier today that lens mount has been installed and a higher grade CMV12000 is now in your / his possession. Fantastic news man!
09:25
se6astian
great!
09:40
Sasha_C
From our conversation earlier today: Bertl: great, thanks! we got the new lens mounts (still have to upload a picture) and the new sensor from cmosis
09:40
Sasha_C
[10:27am] Sasha_C: Congratulations! So the lens is firmly fixed to the main body now?
09:40
Sasha_C
[10:28am] Bertl: not much changed in this regard, the only difference is the material and a few adjustments to match the sensor better
09:40
Sasha_C
[10:29am] Bertl: but it means, that we will soon have a fully working alpha prototype which can almost be used like a normal camera
09:40
Sasha_C
[10:30am] Bertl: (should be ready end of the week if all goes well)
09:46
se6astian
I just ordered a screw tap that will arrove at the beginning of next week
09:46
se6astian
so end of the week for most parts
10:01
PhilippeJ
exciting days !
10:18
se6astian
PhilippeJ, would you have a bit of time now so we can start writing the website content now?
10:20
PhilippeJ
se6astian, not right now, later this day might be
10:20
PhilippeJ
I'll follow anything on this chat along the day, but I have a meeting right now
10:22
se6astian
ok
11:28
PhilippeJ
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11:45
PhilippeJ
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11:57
se6astian
just had a skype call with a stereographer in Berlin to draft the basic requirements for stereo3d recording
11:57
se6astian
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Stereo_3D_Requirements
12:34
aombk
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12:34
aombk
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12:34
aombk
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aombk_
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12:49
leo_m
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13:11
PhilippeJ
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13:13
aombk
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13:35
PhilippeJ
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14:06
Bertl
morning everyone!
14:07
Sasha_C
Morning Bertl. Hope you had a good sleep
14:10
Bertl
yes, thanks, slept quite well .. how was your day?
14:12
Bertl
did you see the images of the 'new' lens mount?
14:13
Sasha_C
Glad to hear that. My day's been good, but I'm just about to go to sleep now
14:13
Sasha_C
No, can you provide a link(s)?
14:14
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/lens_mount_POM01.png
14:14
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/lens_mount_POM02.png
14:15
Sasha_C
Looks nice! Is that a matte black paint finish, or is the lens mount material black to begin with?
14:16
Bertl
it is black POM
14:17
Bertl
looks sexy, doesn't it? :)
14:18
Sasha_C
Yeah, it's great. But it'll look a little funny when it's attached to a transparent plastic camera case
14:19
Sasha_C
?
14:20
Sasha_C
I was referring to the prototype enclosure: https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/alpha_enclosure.jpg
14:20
Bertl
would be the same with the aluminum mount
14:20
Sasha_C
My bad, ignore me. I should really go to sleep now
14:20
Bertl
but the case will get a few minor adjustments anyway
14:23
Sasha_C
Even though it's only the prototype, I'm sure everything will look great when it all comes together!
14:23
Bertl
I definitely hope so
14:24
Sasha_C
Now, unfortunately I have to go :(
14:24
Sasha_C
left the channel
14:46
se6astian
morning Bertl, very nice!
14:49
se6astian
does the new lensmount still fit the sensor? :)
14:49
se6astian
after the adjustments to the "window" I made?
14:51
Bertl
yes, that was actually the first thing I tried
14:51
se6astian
hurray :)
14:52
Bertl
(before I started to cut the threads and attach the bayonet ring
14:52
Bertl
)
14:53
Bertl
I had to extend the 'upper' tap drills to 1.5mm, but that wasn't a big deal, what diameter do they have in the design files?
14:53
se6astian
"upp"er are the ones for the mount ring?
14:54
Bertl
yup
14:54
Bertl
for me that is up, because the lens mount sits on the almost flat zedboard :)
14:56
se6astian
those should be 1.5mm exactly
15:02
Bertl
ah, okay, so that wasn't according to specification then
15:02
Bertl
because they were like 1.4 or so, I will measure them on one of the other pieces
15:03
se6astian
interesting.. well better too small than too big...
15:07
PhilippeJ
Just sent a mail to dev, I hope it will spark some discussions :-)
15:13
se6astian
great, will read and reply soon
15:16
FergusL
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15:22
FergusL
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15:23
se6astian
more irc log progress: https://www.apertus.org/irc/index.php?day=01&month=11&year=2013
15:26
se6astian
meeting a new potential community member in real life now
15:26
se6astian
see you
15:26
se6astian
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15:52
jucar1
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15:58
jucar
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16:05
PhilippeJ
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16:22
intracube
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18:05
se6astian
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18:06
se6astian
back
18:17
mars_
wb
18:53
se6astian
thx :)
18:54
se6astian
our bitcoin donation doubled its value :)
18:54
mars_
bitcoin hype!
19:46
troy_s
se6astian: On 3D camera support, another +1 to your estimation.
19:47
troy_s
se6astian: Also bear in mind that a 3D camera design (smaller body, etc.) ends up pulling against the design of a cinema camera (longer body for handheld, etc)
19:47
Bertl
yeah, I have a 3D capable monitor sitting here and every now and then I get myself to actually use it in 3D, but the technology is just too clumsy atm
19:48
se6astian
our head is currently planned to be 8x8x8 cm - for a cinema camera thats very small, for a s3d camera 8cm is far too much for a side by side rig
19:49
troy_s
se6astian: Ignore 3D. You have a monumental task as it is without extra crap burden.
19:50
Bertl
yes, we cannot make a one fits all solution anyway
19:50
troy_s
se6astian: Regarding that size, an accessory should be considered for mounting into a rod mounting / handheld design etc.
19:50
troy_s
Bertl: Say that again. And again. And again.
19:50
Bertl
:)
19:51
Bertl
OTOH, we won't keep the 3D folks from using our product, if they consider it useable :)
19:51
troy_s
Bertl: Design doesn't damn well exist on an axis of more or less features. Every single feature or design nuance necessarily pulls away or toward a given set of audience needs / hates.
19:52
Bertl
agreed, and similar is true from the technical PoV
19:52
troy_s
Bertl: Moot point. Hack away. Just such a tremendously challenging target as it stands, let alone without tacking on more needs that pull away from the original audience.
19:52
Bertl
i.e. every technical feature we add, brings some kind of drawback/potential problem as well
19:52
troy_s
Hell yes.
20:04
se6astian
ad handheld operation and rods: see top image of: https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/axiom-modules-06.jpg
20:15
dmj_nova
se6astian: well, there's always the mirror 3d rigs
20:15
dmj_nova
I built one without realizing it a while back
20:17
dmj_nova
also: mirror, based 3D rigs can be used for multifocal videography
20:19
rexbron
SxS 3D is unuseable anyway for feature shooting. You need complete control of IA.
20:20
rexbron
se6astian: I'm not trying to be insulting, have you ever operated a larger handheld camera?
20:21
dmj_nova
rexbron: IA?
20:22
[1]se6astian
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20:22
rexbron
se6astian: Also, Red has patented their inverted v lock module system in the US. Not sure how over reaching the application is. If it even extends to camera modules in general
20:22
rexbron
dmj_nova: InterAxial, also know as Inter Ocular distance
20:23
dmj_nova
ah, inter ocular
20:23
dmj_nova
yeah
20:23
dmj_nova
I made my rig for zero inter ocular distance
20:23
dmj_nova
but then operated the focus of my cameras separately
20:24
dmj_nova
fair warning: such things can disturb viewers
20:24
se6astian
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20:24
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
20:25
rexbron
se6astian: http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2012/10/why-a-shouldercam-should-be-heavy/
20:25
rexbron
Small camera head and cinematic handheld are at odds with eachother
20:25
rexbron
In fact, even calling it a 'head' puts it at odds.
20:25
dmj_nova
rexbron: well, there are many ways to make an over the shoulder camera heavy
20:26
rexbron
dmj_nova: you shouldn't have to.
20:26
rexbron
I frankensteined a BMCC rig
20:26
rexbron
it works
20:26
rexbron
ok
20:26
rexbron
just ok
20:26
rexbron
A design that actually takes in to account the human body beats the pants off it for useability
20:26
se6astian
sorry, gotta leave now, could you summarize your points on the wiki?
20:26
rexbron
se6astian: sure
20:27
dmj_nova
rexbron: well, yes. I'm not saying that one shouldn't design with ergonomics (heavy, body-fitting) foremost
20:28
rexbron
dmj_nova: but electrical engineers design for whats easist for them. The BMCC is case in point.
20:28
dmj_nova
just expressing that the electronics themselves will likely fit in a much smaller case for the minimal set
20:28
rexbron
dmj_nova: I'm against a one camera size fits all approach that having a small camera entails. The fact that you can build it up is at best a stop gap.
20:29
dmj_nova
how you make that heavy and balanced could mean mounting the solid state drives somewhere else, or putting lead weights in the right spot
20:29
rexbron
the miniturization of cameras has been driven by enginerring
20:29
rexbron
the same economics that drive process node shrinks
20:29
rexbron
same or better performance, less input costs
20:30
rexbron
we're reached a point, a few years back actually, that the only motion picture cameras that take into account the human body cost more than $80k usd for a body, no accesories
20:32
rexbron
dmj_nova: I'm tired of rigging. I did that for the BMCC and it's expensive for what it is. I'd rather see a camera that actually has it's audience in mind when it's designed.
20:32
rexbron
A professional audience, I should say
20:32
rexbron
the BMCC design was guided by two people, admited to publicly, Grant Petty and John Brawley.
20:33
rexbron
In Grant's case, he stated in an interview he wanted 5D that did motion better. The body is designed to be held like a DSLR, except no viewfind to stablize it. It's decently heavy to be holding infront of you for long periods of time.
20:34
rexbron
In John's case, hea already DPs big austrailian TV show. He has the Alexa or Epic when ever he wanted. He wanted a camera that was small.
20:35
rexbron
there is a place for small cameras
20:35
rexbron
but also along side ones designed for ergonomics
20:35
rexbron
which one is Axiom trying to be? It can't be both.
20:37
Bertl
nobody says that small cameras cannot be ergonomic
20:38
Bertl
but when the question is ergonomics vs. size, I'd go for the ergonomics
20:38
rexbron
Bertl: Camera operators do. The people who actually have to use them, day in day out
20:38
Bertl
a completely different aspect, which is often ignored are the technical requirements
20:41
rexbron
Bertl: but what about the ergonomics vs. size vs. cost. It's the cost that gets people
20:42
rexbron
we've come to expect a lot when it comes to performace per dollar. The semiconducter industry entire economic model is about getting more for less.
20:42
Bertl
usually ergonomics as well as size are negatively correlated with cost :)
20:44
Bertl
don't forget, with semiconductors the smaller is better part only comes with the huge amount of units produced
20:44
Bertl
a 25nm chip costs a lot more than the same chip at 50nm technology
20:44
rexbron
I guess my point is there are a lot of small cameras out there that offer much of what Axiom does now. What does Axiom do that I don't have already?
20:45
rexbron
Leaving aside the open source idology, the main thing that attracts me to this project is the chance to offer input on the design of the body
20:45
Bertl
on the of the main points of axiom (and that's why I'm here in the first place) is the open design
20:45
rexbron
a chance to fix all the annoyances that plauge my professional live
20:45
rexbron
Bertl: but is that it? Is that the only thing that sets Axiom apart?
20:45
rexbron
s/live/life
20:45
Bertl
that might not be something which is appealing to you, but thats a major point for me (and many others)
20:46
Bertl
for example, I do not have any use for the ultimate high end camera, if I cannot get it to do what I want
20:46
rexbron
Bertl: What do you want? A hobby project or a tool to be used?
20:47
rexbron
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh
20:47
Bertl
my use cases are quite different from yours, as I'm not really interested in making movies
20:47
rexbron
I do not mean to
20:47
Bertl
nah, that's fine, I hate dancing around
20:48
rexbron
Bertl: You and I have very different use cases and needs
20:48
Bertl
so probably the overlap in my and your camera needs and applications is almost zero
20:48
rexbron
you want something to tinker with, I want something that works and if I can fix something I don't like, bonus
20:49
rexbron
Bertl: very likely. What is your profession?
20:49
Bertl
maybe let me give you an example
20:49
Bertl
(I'm an IT consultant specialized on virtualization and embedded systems)
20:49
Bertl
there is windows, mac-os and linux out there
20:50
Bertl
the majority will go for windows, then there are the folks who prefer that it just works (not knowing why or how), which will go with the mac
20:51
Bertl
and then there are the folks who want to have something they know exactly why and how it works
20:51
Bertl
I'm a linux user, I'd say you might be an apple person
20:51
rexbron
Bertl: I actually run all 3 :)
20:52
rexbron
I do most of my pro work on Windows and Linux, the mac is left over from earlier in my life
20:52
Bertl
so maybe you're not sure yet :)
20:53
Bertl
the thing with microsoft and apple products (in most cases) is that if you find something annoying or something missing, you usually have only one option
20:53
Bertl
file a bug report, and wait for somebody at the company to fix it
20:54
Bertl
when I find something annoying or missing, I simply fix it
20:55
Bertl
something I can't do on windows or apple (in most cases)
20:56
Bertl
now how does that apply to axiom
20:57
Bertl
if somebody just wants to use it, then it should be like ubuntu, i.e. colorful, easy to handle
20:57
Bertl
if somebody wants to adapt, extend or improve it in some/any way, it should allow that with minimal efford
21:03
Bertl
doesn't mean that it can't be ergonomic and/or provide excellent performance and really comfy interfaces/gui
21:05
Bertl
so maybe axiom will be for you and maybe it won't, in any case, your input will be valuable and if it makes sense (to us) we will also listen and consider it carefully
21:37
FergusL
rexbron: was it you wanting to help on profiling the sensor ?
21:37
rexbron
troy_s and I. He is more knowledgeable
21:38
philippejadin
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21:38
FergusL
also I think you asked for my code
21:41
philippejadin
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21:47
dmj_nova
rexbron: I'm back
21:47
Bertl
wb
21:49
dmj_nova
I guess, what I'm saying is that technologically it is very possible to build a device that has a "core" that is quite small, and a single body unit that is designed exactly as you suggest.
21:50
dmj_nova
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the big issue with the BMCC and DSLR rigs is that they are complex, made of lots of parts to deal with (taking time) and don't function as a cohesive unit
21:50
dmj_nova
it's a bunch of tiny components trying to be part of a bigger accessory ecosystem
21:51
dmj_nova
rather than a single unit that just works
21:54
dmj_nova
Bertl: Part of the problem with saying "open source is good because the user can just fix it" is that many users can't fix it themselves.
21:55
Bertl
still they have the option to hire somebody to fix it for them
21:55
dmj_nova
that said, open source allows a group of motivated engineers to adapt it for that group who isn't being well served
21:55
Bertl
(which is not the case with proprietary products)
21:56
dmj_nova
So part of our job is to listen, and try to make something that will work.
21:57
Bertl
I completely agree there, but that's orthogonal
21:58
Bertl
i.e. we will never be able to compete with each and every commercial product out there in all areas
21:58
Bertl
but I also think that is not what we really want to in the first place
21:59
dmj_nova
rexbron: personally, one major part of what interests me in AXIOM is the ability to have a small, lightweight core component. It's nearly impossible to build an affordable motion control rig for a 45 pound device. Of course such a rig wouldn't be shoulder mounted anyway.
21:59
dmj_nova
Bertl: We can't be all things to all people
21:59
dmj_nova
but we should be a very, very good tool for somebody
22:04
dmj_nova
Bertl: I'm assuming we'll need the SSD controller board very near to the FPGA PCB, yes?
22:04
dmj_nova
because of the high data rate?
22:06
Bertl
depends on the design
22:06
Bertl
sata cables do well for 20-50cm
22:06
dmj_nova
okay, that would be enough to store the drives behind the shoulder
22:07
dmj_nova
(for weight balancing)
22:09
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22:11
se6astian
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[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
22:18
se6astian
night night
22:18
se6astian
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22:19
Bertl
for example, similar could be done with the battery, as long as it distance is not too far
22:20
Bertl
because high power means large diameter cables or loss on energy transport
22:29
dmj_nova
Bertl: that doesn't sound like a problem for a "heavy cinema" unit
22:30
Bertl
yeah, well, moving the battery far away from the rest has mostly drawbacks, little advantage
22:48
Sasha_C
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22:49
Sasha_C
Good morning everyone
23:17
jucar1
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leo_m
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intracube
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23:41
dmj_nova
evening Sasha_C