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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/09/18

Timezone: UTC


00:25
anton__
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02:26
intracube
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02:52
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
02:52
Bertl
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wescotte
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Morethink
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06:41
se6astian|away
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06:42
se6astian
good morning
06:43
alexML_
hi
06:43
alexML_
[#apertus] hey guys, another developer from ML is interested in Axiom: https://twitter.com/baldand http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9560
06:53
se6astian
great!
06:53
se6astian
will get in touch with him a bit later today
06:53
se6astian
bbs
06:53
se6astian
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se6astian|away
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se6astian
back
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09:59
derWalter
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10:00
derWalter
hey everyone
10:00
philippej
hello !
10:27
derWalter
the axiom (movement?!) camera could become the blitzo of the film and photo business: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fh9dYcUvTQ
10:31
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10:49
se6astian
hello there Guest45124
11:05
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derWalter
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derWalter
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11:06
derWalter
re ...
11:29
Bertl_zZ
morning folks!
11:29
Bertl_zZ
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12:33
philippej
Unrelated but fun : http://wavepot.com/
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eduardo
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15:07
theuberkevlar
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15:07
theuberkevlar
anybody on right now?
15:11
se6astian
sure :)
15:43
Bertl
theuberkevlar: and even if not, if you have a question, just ask, it will get answered
15:55
wescotte
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16:14
derWalter
http://howww.com/ would that something be which could help promoting the camera? did some one already talk to the piratebay? (promo bay) did some one talk to vimeo for instance already?
16:18
se6astian
not yet
16:19
se6astian
but what to propose exactly?
16:22
derWalter
to promote the crowdfunding
16:24
derWalter
i feel it stalled already, wanna get it going again, get more money into it than the 100k, and at least get to the 100k ofc :)
16:24
derWalter
reach out for the masses who would benefit the most from it
16:25
derWalter
its not (only) the producers, but the consuments!
16:25
philippej
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16:25
se6astian
we can try :)
16:26
derWalter
at vimeo, there are "staff picks", thats nothing too special, but would be seen by millions of vimeo users
16:26
derWalter
people who care for looks more than others
16:26
derWalter
promo bay would genereate an awefull lot of clicks
16:26
derWalter
directly reaching for the endusers of films
16:28
theuberkevlar
yeah
16:29
theuberkevlar
We should all contact Vimeo! It would be awesome if they would feature something. They seem like the kind of community that would love to endorse open source cinema (unless I am totally off).
16:30
derWalter
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16:32
derWalter
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16:32
derWalter
re, somehow the connection got lost
16:32
se6astian
derWalter: check pm please :)
16:32
derWalter
yeah, i've read the first three lines
16:33
se6astian
3 lines was all there was :)
16:33
se6astian
should I resend?
16:34
derWalter
before i lost the connection, i also asked for some press text i could send to the students at my university
16:53
philippej
se6astian, it might actually be a good idea to post the sample footage on vimeo
16:54
philippej
and ask for some promotion from them
16:54
philippej
we used youtube, but our target audience will likely be on vimeo
16:54
philippej
(partly)
16:54
philippej
it cost nothing to post on both I mean
17:00
se6astian
good idea
17:00
se6astian
do we have an apertus account on vimeo already
17:01
se6astian
I think we do
17:01
se6astian
but cant remember :)
17:02
intracube
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17:11
philippej
yes we have
17:12
derWalter
oh my gosh, those sunsets are sooo beautifull the last few days...
17:12
derWalter
i ll take a picture, brb
17:12
derWalter
:D
17:14
philippej
do yuo have an intermediate version of the footage I can upload?
17:14
philippej
not the 2.5gb one :-)
17:15
philippej
I have the 32mb mp4
17:24
derWalter
why not uploading the large one? on vimeo there is ftp uload, so if you have it somewhere online?
17:24
derWalter
mhhh, but i guess, they dont support fxp ://
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baldand_
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17:42
derWalter
i ve a question, which, maybe will sound stupid, but it is groundbreaking important to me and maybe many others: what is the highes goal of this project, why are you (the main and core devs) doing this? whats the answer, for which you would go over your own bad feelings, like working with people you would not want in your living room, but for achieving that one goal, you work together, cause working together will make the vision
17:42
anton-2
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17:45
anton-2
Hu, Btw in terms of footage it might be nice to see 15stop DR in action. Too bad that weather is unlikely to cooperate and deliver a day full of sunshine
17:47
derWalter
well, the moon can also be very interesting, especially with the right lens attached :)
17:47
anton-2
That is if this wide dr is to be used as a headline feature to market the project
17:47
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18:00
se6astian
hi baldand!
18:00
se6astian
great to have you here
18:04
baldand
se6astian: hi!
18:04
se6astian
I am really bad at bash scripting but need a pretty simple one for someone who knows what he is doing :)
18:06
se6astian
"cat rawimage.raw16 | python CMV12000toDNG.py" pipes one image into the pythong converter
18:06
se6astian
the python converter will write img.dng
18:06
se6astian
I need a script that I can run to convert all raw16 files in a directory to DNGs with the same name as the raw16 file
18:07
Bertl
for n in *.raw16; do python CMV12000toDNG.py <"$n"; mv img.dng $n.dng; done
18:07
se6astian
perfect!
18:07
Bertl
you can even make it better with
18:07
Bertl
for n in *.raw16; do python CMV12000toDNG.py <"$n"; mv img.dng ${n%.raw16}.dng; done
18:08
Bertl
in bash, which will get rid of the .raw16
18:08
se6astian
thanks!
18:08
Bertl
and if you happen to have spaces in the name, use
18:09
Bertl
for n in *.raw16; do python CMV12000toDNG.py <"$n"; mv img.dng "${n%.raw16}.dng"; done
18:09
Bertl
and, you're welcome! :)
18:09
Juicyfruit
best would be to make the python script understand image sequences :)
18:10
se6astian
its not a real sequence, just a set of different images
18:10
se6astian
works, already converting :)
18:10
Juicyfruit
:)
18:19
baldand
If you are using python, you might be able to reuse some bits of MlRawViewer. E.g. it has a DNG.py module
18:19
baldand
...which I use for reading and writing DNGs
18:19
baldand
(sorry if that's not relevant/helpful for this :-)
18:22
se6astian
might actually work yes
18:22
se6astian
will test soon
18:22
se6astian
currently snapping test images for alexML_ to measure
18:22
baldand
(https://bitbucket.org/baldand/mlrawviewer/src/HEAD/DNG.py)
18:28
derWalter
hey guys, i know my question is a quite serious ans maybe not so easy to answer, but i would be happy to get an answer sooner or later :))
18:30
philippe_
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18:30
se6astian
derWalter: what was your question ?
18:30
se6astian
philippe_: pm
18:30
derWalter
i ve a question, which, maybe will sound stupid, but it is groundbreaking important to me and maybe many others: what is the highes goal of this project, why are you (the main and core devs) doing this? whats the answer, for which you would go over your own bad feelings, like working with people you would not want in your living room, but for achieving that one goal, you work together, cause working together will make the vision
18:33
se6astian
its actually very simple why I do it, and quite egoistic :) I would like to have powerful tools that I know to have full control over
18:33
se6astian
and that I can tune and tweak
18:33
kontrakatze
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18:33
philippe_
derWalter, I think that reading this page : https://apertus.org/history might give some perspective
18:34
se6astian
I am a filmmaker myself so the tool is as important as the things you can make with it
18:34
philippe_
this one also : https://apertus.org/about :-)
18:34
kontrakatze
Hello, I have a question regarding the ef-mount. You stated it would be passive, does it mean that even setting the aperature would have to be done manually?
18:35
philippe_
kontrakatze, for now yes, but at some point we plan active lens control
18:36
philippe_
and in a maybe more distant future, other craziness using the built in gyro (like reatime image stabilization)
18:37
kontrakatze
This would reduce the use of canon lenses a lot! "at some point" does mean not within the first or second batch if I follow the crowdfunding campain?
18:37
philippe_
The roadmap is partially defined by people interest, skills, and any lobying done by knowledgeable people here
18:38
kontrakatze
goog answer, but not quite clear :-)
18:39
philippe_
kontrakatze, we will try to give a more precise answer regarding this as soon as we can
18:39
philippe_
for now, I would expect that the lens mounts will be passive at the time of inital release
18:40
philippe_
but stay tuned :-)
18:40
kontrakatze
ok, I joined the campain anyway ... :-) But this would be a strong point for the filmmakers on a budget!
18:40
se6astian
agreed, we also want it, we just need to make sure we focus on the core of the camera first
18:40
se6astian
its definitely on the priority list
18:41
philippe_
we don't want to promise more than we can achieve, it has already made people angry so many times with other companies / projects
18:41
derWalter
kontrakatze: pm
18:42
kontrakatze
I understand that very well, but it's good to hear its on the list.
18:42
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jucar
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18:45
philippe_
this lossless jpeg thing is very interesting
18:45
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18:46
derWalter
lossless jpg sounds like an oxymoron to me :D
18:47
baldand
There are quite many different lossless jpeg versions. You need to be specific which one you mean
18:47
baldand
The one DNG uses is from JPEG 1992, which always had a lossless version
18:47
baldand
(which is very different from the normal lossy version)
18:48
philippe_
I'm just reading the wikipedia article
18:48
baldand
I just made a small decoder for the 1992 version. Planning to write an encoder next
18:49
philippe_
when you say the one dng uses, is it official ?
18:49
baldand
I imagine you could do that compression on FPGA quite well
18:49
baldand
Yes
18:49
baldand
In the Adobe spec
18:49
philippe_
and what ratio can you achieve?
18:49
baldand
It's about 50%
18:50
baldand
Depending on content of course
18:50
baldand
I think combining it with a linearization table is a good way to go
18:50
philippe_
in the scope of magic lantern, you plan to use this to convert mlv to compressed dng ?
18:50
baldand
e.g. preserve the darker areas totally losslessly, and drop bits on the bright areas
18:51
baldand
Yes
18:51
baldand
Also I'd like to see MLV support it as a native compression format
18:51
baldand
For archiving MLV files
18:51
baldand
But that's up to e.g. g3gg0
18:52
philippe_
you mean doing in camera compression ?
18:52
baldand
Blackmagic use it that way - lineariation + lossless JPEG
18:52
baldand
No I don't think so
18:52
baldand
ML can't do anything with the raw data in camera
18:52
baldand
There's no CPU for that
18:52
baldand
It can only dump to disk
18:52
baldand
But Apertus could do that
18:52
kontrakatze
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18:53
philippe_
huge achievement already, with non existent documentation :-)
18:53
baldand
(alexML_ correct me if I'm wrong... you're the expert here)
18:53
philippe_
yes, this would be a nice addition
18:54
baldand
of course, if your data is 12bit it might not need the linearization
18:54
baldand
ML is 14bit, so there's some extra bits there
18:56
se6astian
lossless jpeg in DNG is limited to 8 bits AFAIR right?
18:56
baldand
No
18:56
baldand
Up to 16
18:56
baldand
2-16
18:56
baldand
you can choose
18:56
philippe_
we could at some point find a lossy compression scheme for raw data, because as told us convergent design's Mitch, people ask for 4k raw hfr, then they need broad shoulders to store and process it :-)
18:56
baldand
(quite foresighted of the JPEG in 1992 I think :-)
18:57
philippe_
I already have a lot of sympathy for it, dating back from 92 :-)
18:59
philippe_
have you seen this : http://opensource.mikrosimage.eu/duke.html
18:59
Bertl
lossless compression is always nice, but you still have to plan for uncompressed data
19:02
baldand
BTW just wanted to say that whatever formats you go with, I plan to try and support playing them with MlRawViewer
19:02
baldand
For what it's worth
19:02
Bertl
excellent!
19:03
se6astian
thats great!
19:03
darthrake
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19:03
philippe_
it's great, because it means magic lantern users will be at home and have a proven pipeline
19:04
baldand
(I've recently being trying it with CDNGs from more cameras, so it is already not limited just to ML-originated data)
19:04
baldand
I'm not sure how useful that will be if you are using e.g. CDNG
19:04
derWalter
i see only baldand writing... must be a netsplit, brb
19:04
baldand
But it could help if you chosoe MLV
19:04
derWalter
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19:05
philippe_
one more proprietary codec that will vanish in 5 years : http://www.cinema5d.com/kinefinity-release-kineraw-compressed-raw-codec/
19:05
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derWalter
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derWalterAWAY
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derWalterzzZ
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19:15
philippe_
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19:18
derWalter
wow@microsimage
19:31
se6astian
did you test it?
19:31
se6astian
sounds very interesting
19:34
baldand
Can I ask what the format of those .raw16 files are?
19:35
se6astian
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=RAW16
19:37
baldand
thanks!
19:38
baldand
I'll see if I can view those already in MlRawViewer
19:39
derWalter
just a kids question :) is lzma a topic via the fpga, or would it still be to slow?
19:41
Bertl
does it do about 2Gigabit per second?
19:41
Bertl
*Gigabyte
19:41
intracube
hello
19:43
intracube
quick question; will the Beta be able to downscale/interpolate the whole sensor down to standard definition (720x576)?
19:43
Bertl
yes
19:43
intracube
and is there any detailed info on the processing capability in this area
19:43
intracube
Bertl: kewl :)
19:44
Bertl
check out the Zynq 7020 reference
19:44
intracube
just thinking in case a client were to request SD only (it might happen, I guess)
19:44
intracube
Bertl: thanks, will do
19:45
Bertl
you're welcome!
19:59
derWalter
is it possible to define the area which gets downscaled? lets say i want only full/hd/sd, so i could use the crop factor to get a wider picture, if you understand? kinda like a software zoom... am i understandable?
19:59
philippej
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20:00
Bertl
should be doable, but arbitrary scaling can be tricky
20:01
derWalter
oops, i just know the media theoretic/philosophic meaning of arbitrary, i dont know what it means in technical context
20:01
Bertl
for example, cutting out an arbitrary region -> simple
20:01
Bertl
reducing that region by 1/2 or 2/3 or something like that -> easy
20:02
Bertl
scaling the region to NxM -> hard
20:02
derWalter
oh, you mean regarding aspect ratio?
20:02
derWalter
i didnt mean to change that
20:03
derWalter
i just meant to be able to say read 1920x1080 and put out 1280x720
20:03
Bertl
well, scaling 1090 pixel to 1080 while keeping the aspect might be problematic as well
20:04
Bertl
at least with proper interpolation, but it is still doable
20:04
derWalter
or read 1600x1000 put out 720p
20:04
derWalter
mhhhhhhh
20:05
Bertl
one problem will be that the FPGA space is limited
20:06
Bertl
so while a lot of things are doable, they might not all fit into the Beta FPGA
20:06
baldand
Yay, managed to load a raw16 into MlRawViewer
20:07
Bertl
there is .raw12 as well :)
20:12
baldand
Funny though, I had to use the alternate CFA pattern (GBRG) even the wiki said it is RGGB
20:14
Bertl
that can be, because the pattern depends on the sensor configuration
20:14
Bertl
i.e. flipped vs not-flipped
20:15
baldand
Looks like an SSD could just about manage real time playback for 12bit 24FPS
20:15
Bertl
to decide that, you would have to parse the sensor registers
20:15
Bertl
(if they are present and accurate at the end)
20:16
baldand
Do you have some sequences recorded yet?
20:17
Bertl
the Alpha I/O interface is too slow for sequences, we can only do time lapse
20:17
Bertl
(roughly 1:10 or so)
20:20
philippej
see you everyone !
20:22
derWalter
a good 3,5" harddisk will also bring around 150 mb/s, so a storage raid with at least 4 operating drives will also give the necessary troughput (which is more likely to be used ;)
20:23
baldand
SSD = 500MB/s
20:23
baldand
1TB SSD = 500â¬
20:23
Bertl
yeah, we estimated at least two Sata 6G SSDs for proper recording
20:23
philippej
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20:24
baldand
If you would do that lossless JPEG, you would only need one
20:24
derWalter
a, you are talking about record, sry
20:24
Bertl
baldand: under the condition that the data _can_ be compressed at least 1:2 :)
20:24
Bertl
(or 2:1 actually)
20:24
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20:25
Bertl
welcome vroem!
20:25
baldand
Of course it depends what frame rates you are trying to reach...
20:25
baldand
Are you thinking 50-60?
20:26
baldand
12bit@24 only needs 450MB?
20:26
baldand
uncompressed
20:27
Bertl
ah, okay, so you're talking about uncompressed
20:27
derWalter
sata 3.2?
20:27
baldand
yes, jpeg should roughly halve that
20:28
baldand
umm... whatever samsung is selling these days
20:28
baldand
I have one in my laptop :-)
20:28
baldand
500MB/s+ read and write
20:30
baldand
(was the only way to make working with raw usable on a laptop)
20:35
vroem
Thanks for the warm welcome Bertl :-)
20:39
Bertl
my pleasure!
20:45
baldand
I just added support for raw file sequences to MlRawViewer. See: https://bitbucket.org/baldand/mlrawviewer/commits/91ba48b9c041e1078f060b61c0cf259117d4ee7b
20:45
Bertl
great!
20:45
baldand
It can be used to load those raw16 file, either single ones or sequences. You just need to make a little info file to tell the size and cfa layout
20:46
baldand
See the commit message
20:46
baldand
With that you can export DNGs and ProRes MOVs
20:46
Bertl
excellent!
20:46
baldand
(one bug: CFA for the exported DNGs will be wrong if they are GBRG)
20:46
Bertl
would it work for the .raw12 as well?
20:46
baldand
It can be made to
20:46
baldand
Needs a little more work though.
20:47
baldand
I only see a couple of .raw12 files in the same dir as all the .raw16s Are those good to use?
20:48
baldand
What's the format of raw12?
20:48
Bertl
it is basically a packed version of the .raw16
20:49
baldand
what about endianness
20:49
baldand
of the packing
20:49
Bertl
should be big endian, IIRC
20:49
baldand
(there quite a few ways of doing these packings :-)
20:50
baldand
is it described somewhere?
20:51
baldand
well, I can take a look at it another day perhaps. For now it's only raw16
20:51
Bertl
no problem :)
20:51
baldand
(my IRC bick will stay on all the time even I'm offline, so you can leave me notes but I may not reply immediately)
20:52
Bertl
yeah, that's perfectly fine, same here when I'm off
20:56
vroem
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21:20
se6astian
ok time for me to go to bed
21:20
se6astian
many thanks for all the new help today
21:20
se6astian
its a real pleasure to see things moving so well!
21:21
Bertl
good night!
21:23
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
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tth
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tth
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22:07
theuberkevlar
I'll just keep tweeting away and editing footage in between while you guys are all snoozin'. :)
22:16
Bertl
sounds good :)
22:23
derWalter
Vimeo is the home for high-quality videos and the people who love them.Vimeo is the home for high-quality videos and the people who love them.
22:34
Bertl
sounds like a sales-pitch! sounds like a sales-pitch! :)
22:37
theuberkevlar
Why did you write it twice? Why did you write it twice?
22:37
Bertl
no idea, it just felt right ...
22:44
intracube
I had a go at grading the footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2RhmoKb36M
22:46
intracube
with less of a Log look
23:24
theuberkevlar
I was telling an aquaintance about the project and the campaign and how the camera is open source and this was his response: "But you can already hack your firmwear."
23:24
theuberkevlar
with that spelling
23:29
theuberkevlar
>:(
23:30
theuberkevlar
How do I respond to that? Misspeliing aside.
23:33
theuberkevlar
haha whoops
23:33
theuberkevlar
*Misspelling
23:43
aombk
i had a go at the footage too
23:44
aombk
http://aombk.attinom.net/axiomtest/1080p_1.mp4
23:47
aombk
you can reply, no you cant hack it. somebody else does the hacking for you but he may stop bothering now and he may use his skills to the development of beta
23:48
theuberkevlar
Haha!
23:48
theuberkevlar
Zing!
23:51
theuberkevlar
Exactly. What I ended up saying was: "Yeah, but it is so much more difficult when you have to fight through a proprietary system. And you void your warranty."
23:51
theuberkevlar
I think your idea was better, haha
23:52
intracube
and possibly brick your camera...
23:52
theuberkevlar
yup
23:52
intracube
aombk: nice. what software did you use to grade?
23:52
Bertl
it goes way beyond that, but many people do not realize
23:52
aombk
adobe premiere
23:53
theuberkevlar
Bertl, give me your points, how would you respond to that?
23:53
aombk
intracube, but i only use basic filters so it can be done to any program
23:54
Bertl
it starts with simple things, and it is similar to open source software, you find something you consider broken, or not optimal or you have a great idea what you could do if just ...
23:55
Bertl
but then the proprietary, closed part kicks in and keeps you from fixing this or that, trying out the new idea, etc ...
23:55
Bertl
now many folks say, yeah, _you_ can do that, by I cannot do that anyway
23:56
Bertl
and that might be right, but OTOH, everybody can hire somebody able to do that for him/her
23:56
Bertl
which usually isn't possible with proprietary applications or devices
23:57
Bertl
i.e. try to find somebody who modifies the windows kernel for you :)
23:57
aombk
btw theuberkevlar, you know that alex of magiclantern spends much of his time on beta already, right?
23:59
aombk
many people prefer to buy expensive cameras in the form of sealed black boxes and then pay thousands of money so that the corporation that sold them these black boxes will unlock its locked features