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14:16 | philippejadin | hello, fellow hardcore irc users !
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14:16 | se6astian | ;)
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14:19 | se6astian | maybe we can have a soft revival of IRC
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14:19 | Bertl | hey philippejadin!
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14:19 | se6astian | now that the NSA is managing our inboxes and logging our hangouts ;)
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14:20 | se6astian | May I introduce, Philippe from Belgium and Bertl from yesterday evening ;)
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14:20 | Bertl | I'm the one to blame for the sudden interest in irc :)
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14:20 | se6astian | yes, its all his fault
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14:21 | Bertl | I've heard that folks around the world are interested in axiom related development, and I thought it might be beneficial to virtually come together somewhere ...
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14:22 | Bertl | and as I hang out on IRC anyway ...
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14:36 | philippejadin | Good idea
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14:36 | philippejadin | hello !
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14:37 | philippejadin | it reminds me when I was on the worldforge.org project
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14:37 | philippejadin | I spent hours on irc
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14:37 | philippejadin | huge time sucker tool
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14:37 | philippejadin | but great fun
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14:46 | philippejadin | So, Bertl, what do you intend to work on ?
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14:51 | dmj_nova | hello all
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14:53 | philippejadin | hello !
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14:55 | se6astian | hurray, more people, hi david!
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14:56 | Bertl | welcome dmj_nova!
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14:59 | dmj_nova | se6astian: I'm checking on the possibility to get the zedboard with academic pricing
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14:59 | se6astian | perfect
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14:59 | se6astian | here it was no problem at all, they didnt even need any proof after I sent them a mail from my .edu address
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15:00 | dmj_nova | from diligent's site?
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15:00 | philippejadin | the .edu address is alreadya good proof :-)
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15:01 | se6astian | I found an austrian distributor
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15:07 | dmj_nova | Hmm...I suppose such a board could be used as an embedded computer and control system for nanomoco boards
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15:08 | dmj_nova | And therefore be "required" for my independent study
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15:08 | se6astian | definitely!
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15:08 | se6astian | :)
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15:13 | dmj_nova | zedboard can run ubuntu, right?
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15:14 | Bertl | philippejadin: well, I'll be investigating our FPGA options, and I'm currently trying to collect information about the components and adapter PCB
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15:14 | se6astian | Bertl, this could be usefull later: http://blog.aeste.my/2013/05/09/zedboard-on-ubuntu-12-04-lts/
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15:14 | philippejadin | dmj_nova: yes
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15:14 | philippejadin | but you might prefer a lighter distribution
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15:15 | dmj_nova | philippejadin: yep, then I can definitely use it for my independent study
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15:15 | philippejadin | (or realtime)
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15:15 | Bertl | yeah, while ubuntu is probably nice for desktop, it's overkill for embedded systems
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15:15 | dmj_nova | philippejadin: mostly care since it avoids having to port tons of dependencies
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15:15 | Bertl | (which can be easily seen on raspberry pi :)
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15:16 | Bertl | but probably a good starting point anyway
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15:16 | dmj_nova | and if I want to do fun things with realtime collaboration
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15:16 | philippejadin | I hav eno experience with realtime linux, but for our use it might be interesting
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15:16 | dmj_nova | *cough*dmedia integration*cough*
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15:17 | Bertl | philippejadin: there is hard realtime and soft realtime ... basic realtime support is already present in almost all recent linux kernels
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15:18 | Bertl | i.e. you can utilize the realtime sheduler for example
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15:18 | philippejadin | the idea anyway is to do the hard processing on the fpga and use linux for not so realtime menu overlay. I hav eno idea when we'll have to write files somewhere how we'll do that :-)
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15:19 | dmj_nova | I expect that we'll want to do all the stuff that needs to be hard realtime in the FPGA
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15:19 | Bertl | most likely, at least to the extend possible
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15:20 | Bertl | philippejadin: you mean the actual data from the sensor or what?
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15:20 | dmj_nova | the FPGA could likely output frames to memory that's shared with Linux and the Linux can read and store it as appropriate
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15:21 | Bertl | ala dual ported ram?
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15:21 | dmj_nova | assuming our hardware can do that
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15:22 | Bertl | we'll see, no idea atm ...
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15:22 | philippejadin | Wild guess : image processing -> fpga / writing images to disk -> linux (as long as it can be done fast enough)
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15:22 | dmj_nova | What is everyone's FPGA experience?
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15:23 | Bertl | I've started recently with FPGAs mainly because I got my hands on a bunch of really cheap lattice chips. I've the theory behind it and I've already managed to write a bunch of VHDL programs to play with
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15:24 | dmj_nova | I programmed the game Spacewar! for an FPGA in a class, and I designed a simulated 16-bit CPU with L2 cache and basic pipelining in VHDL.
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15:24 | Bertl | I have a lot of experience with embedded systems in general and I use Linux for almost everything, including design and development
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15:25 | Bertl | dmj_nova: nice!
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15:28 | dmj_nova | I also use Linux pretty much always. I'm part of the team making Novacut.
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15:30 | Bertl | I probably should mention that I have no experience whatsoever with making movies or filming in general, but I've done a lot of image processing (technical) and know the mathematical models
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15:30 | dmj_nova | I have some experience with (very) indie filmmaking
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15:31 | dmj_nova | and quite a few contacts with filmmakers
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15:31 | dmj_nova | so we should be able to get feedback when the time comes
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15:31 | dmj_nova | I do have some gstreamer experience
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15:33 | dmj_nova | Some of this may be a bit obvious but a few things to keep in mind since we're a distributed team on a hardware project
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15:34 | dmj_nova | Keeping things modular with well defined interfaces should reduce the amount of breakage/stepping on other people's work
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15:34 | dmj_nova | Bertl: have you ever worked with other people on your projects?
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15:35 | philippejadi | has to go, see you later guys, I'm very happy to see you on board !
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15:36 | Bertl | dmj_nova: yes, I'm maintaining an open source project since 2001
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15:36 | dmj_nova | Bertl: like a hardware kind?
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15:36 | Bertl | software (Linux-VServer)
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15:37 | dmj_nova | okay, hardware (from my experience) tends to be a bit harder to collaborate
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15:37 | Bertl | quite understandable
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15:37 | dmj_nova | So modularity and not changing things at the interfaces is a pretty big deal
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15:38 | Bertl | very similar to the linux kernel interface, actually :)
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15:38 | dmj_nova | since (depending on your tools) merging can be a major problem
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15:40 | dmj_nova | I was also talking to se6astian about the possibility of having an automated test setup to verify that our commits don't break functionality
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15:41 | Bertl | automated as in physical hardware running whatever was commited?
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15:41 | dmj_nova | yes
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15:41 | Bertl | sounds good
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15:41 | dmj_nova | and then reporting back any issues
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15:41 | Bertl | I'm all for automation
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15:41 | Bertl | I hate doing things twice, I'd rather script it :)
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15:41 | dmj_nova | Novacut has a test suite that runs on launchpad for every build
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15:42 | dmj_nova | it's helped us catch problems and keep trunk releaseable
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15:43 | Bertl | yep, we have made similar experiences with automated kernel building and testing
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15:43 | Bertl | so I'm all on-board with that
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15:44 | Bertl | especially as I prefer to have an automated build process to get from source to binary
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18:04 | dmj_nova | So it looks like we will have to be very space conscious with the zedboard
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18:05 | dmj_nova | since it only has 85k logic cells
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18:07 | dmj_nova | se6astian: The actual device will be incorporating the Zynq SoC on a custom PCB, yes?
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18:11 | se6astian | yes
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18:13 | se6astian | do you think our logic will require more gates than we have to our disposal?
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18:17 | se6astian | Elphel camera just had 19K logic cells
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18:20 | dmj_nova | elphel was only HDish, right?
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18:20 | dmj_nova | My guess is that the zedboard should do for development for the time being.
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18:21 | dmj_nova | However, additional logic cells will be highly useful for building in more advanced functionality
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18:22 | dmj_nova | as in, having a certain amount of surplus logic cells makes the system more extensible
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18:24 | se6astian | what do you mean with HDish?
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18:25 | se6astian | the FPGA tasks inside the Elphel camera are pretty broad, they even do jpeg compression in there
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18:25 | se6astian | and if I remember correctly they still had plenty of cells left
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18:25 | se6astian | and we have 4 times more available already
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18:50 | Bertl | IMHO it's always good to develop on lower end hardware ... it keeps designs efficient and performant :)
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19:11 | dmj_nova | Bertl: Yeah, I think the zedboard will do fine for development
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19:38 | se6astian | all parts routed!
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19:38 | se6astian | https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-hardware/tree/master/SFE-PCB
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19:48 | dmj_nova | se6astian: nice
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20:06 | se6astian | I had the idea that we could try to cut a hole into the image sensor socket and PCB in the middle of the image sensor
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20:06 | se6astian | and try to attach a cooling element to the sensor
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20:07 | se6astian | from behind
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20:15 | dmj_nova | se6astian: hmm
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20:15 | dmj_nova | any idea how easy that would be to fabricate?
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20:15 | se6astian | cutting 2 holes?
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20:18 | dmj_nova | So we would attach a metal plate to the back of the sensor and feed 2 heat pipes into it from behind?
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20:21 | Bertl | does it require additional cooling?
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20:22 | dmj_nova | I know that other cameras require careful consideration of cooling needs
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20:22 | se6astian | not "require" - but noise increases with temperature
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20:22 | dmj_nova | hmm...We might want to put quite some effort into cooling then
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20:23 | dmj_nova | especially since our "competitors" are putting forth some very impressive devices noise-wise
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20:24 | se6astian | well its just a prototype
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20:24 | se6astian | but my idea was that some tests couldnt hurt
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20:24 | dmj_nova | well, the prototype noise is *less* important
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20:25 | se6astian | since the SFE goes directly on top of the zedboard we dont have much space between them
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20:25 | dmj_nova | but testing is always good
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20:25 | dmj_nova | and the final model should be designed to be usable in hot conditions for extended periods
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20:30 | Bertl | we do not even know how the socket looks like (yet), so it might or might not be possible to do direct cooling
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20:31 | Bertl | in general, I think it would be a lot better to use extra thick copper for the final board and vias to cool from behind
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20:32 | Bertl | (if the socket allows for that)
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20:33 | Bertl | alternatively, to reduce dark current and silicon noise, we could use a peltier element
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20:33 | dmj_nova | so the board becomes effectively a heat spreader?
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20:33 | Bertl | the area below the sensor, yes
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20:33 | dmj_nova | yeah, I was thinking peltier might be a good (optional) element to use
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20:33 | dmj_nova | at least when lots of power is available
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20:34 | dmj_nova | but you still have to dissipate the heat outside the box one way or another
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20:34 | Bertl | the question is how much heat the sensor itself will produce
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20:35 | Bertl | if there isn't much heat to dissipate, a low power peltier element could keep it at very low temperatures
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20:36 | Bertl | but I think, atm, we do not have enough information available
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20:36 | dmj_nova | hmm...does the sensor have a temperature sensor?
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20:37 | Bertl | yes
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20:37 | Bertl | 16bit, digital
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20:37 | dmj_nova | that should help in tuning things if there is a peltier or other active cooling system
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20:37 | Bertl | yup
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20:38 | dmj_nova | and compensate somewhat for lower battery performance in cold weather
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20:38 | dmj_nova | not having to spend as much power on cooling
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20:38 | Bertl | the CMV12000 has a total consumption of 1900mW
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20:38 | dmj_nova | hmm
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20:38 | Bertl | so roughly 2W max
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20:39 | dmj_nova | That's not a huge amount
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20:39 | dmj_nova | not trivial though
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20:39 | Bertl | not sure how much is dissipated as heat though
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20:39 | dmj_nova | all of it
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20:40 | dmj_nova | seeing as it's not a light bulb
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20:40 | dmj_nova | or a radio transmitter
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20:40 | dmj_nova | or a speaker
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20:41 | Bertl | yeah, but it drives outputs
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20:42 | dmj_nova | true, though I expect that's minimal compared to what it consumes for its own operations
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20:43 | dmj_nova | I could be wrong though
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20:43 | dmj_nova | Bertl: do you have a zedboard yet?
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20:46 | Bertl | yes, I got one, I'm currently preparing my development environment
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20:47 | dmj_nova | cool
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20:47 | dmj_nova | btw, is the software windows-only or does it support better systems?
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20:47 | Bertl | I'm on linux, so it will be better than windows :)
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20:48 | dmj_nova | cool, good to know it works on linux :)
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20:48 | dmj_nova | much less annoying
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20:48 | Bertl | definitely ... I avoid windows and microsoft products completely
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20:48 | dmj_nova | well, as long as it doesn't suck as much as mentor graphics
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21:01 | dmj_nova | I'm pretty sure that my windows box is both 6 months out of date and very secure against online hacks
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21:04 | dmj_nova | but that's just cause it's not been turned on in that long :P
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