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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2020/12/17

Timezone: UTC


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BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
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Bertl_zZ
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09:47
Bertl
morning folks!
09:54
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aniketonroll
hey everyone, I was curious if I can contribute with the knowledge of C++ ?
10:28
BAndiT1983
hi
10:28
BAndiT1983
aniketonroll: what is your area of interest?
10:36
aniketonroll
I'm getting started with whole tech side. I know C++ so far and intrigued towards developing and contributing.
10:38
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
10:38
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
10:39
BAndiT1983
currently we have some active C++ development for the AXIOM Remote -> https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Remote
10:39
BAndiT1983
have you also check lab.apertus.org, where we are tracking tasks and issues?
10:40
BAndiT1983
repo: https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/AXIOM-Remote
10:40
aniketonroll
Thank you so much. will look into it.
10:41
BAndiT1983
if you want to try it, then please use the vis_adjust branch, as it's newer at the moment, but dev branch will be updated soon, we just had no time to merge other changes form forks etc. yet
10:41
BAndiT1983
no problem, if you have questions, ask anytime here, as the channel is logged on irc.apertus.org, so the messages won't be lost
10:41
aniketonroll
so are you the mentor of this organisation?
10:43
BAndiT1983
i'm one of active contributors, if you mean project lead, then it would be se6ast1an
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12:17
xthenode
is there or, is there any interest in a dev board that includes a desktop dev environment?
12:20
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12:28
BAndiT1983
hi xthenode
12:29
BAndiT1983
could you elaborate on this, please?
12:33
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12:36
xthenode
use the apertus hardware and os to build the code
12:36
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12:36
danieeel
xthenode: how do you run vivado on arm?
12:37
danieeel
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12:37
BAndiT1983
currently the firmware is built with QEMU and infrastructure, FPGA code is additional complexity and is done separately
12:37
xthenode
vivado?
12:39
xthenode
this would be a special board that devs could use to build natively
12:39
danieel
xthenode: what cpu / other spec of the board ?
12:40
BAndiT1983
problem with embedded boards is the performance, which is mostly low in comparison to a desktop PC or laptop
12:40
Bertl_oO
xthenode: you can build kernel and userspace on the MicroZed, although it takes quite a while ...
12:40
Bertl_oO
Vivado you do not want to run on a MicroZed or similar system though
12:40
xthenode
i currently build on the pi which is arm
12:41
Bertl_oO
(and it wouldn't make sense to be on a 'native' platform there either)
12:41
xthenode
dont agree
12:41
vup
BAndiT1983: most of the "firmware" (kernel, additional software) is actually cross compiled, QEMU ist mostly used for setting up the system
12:41
danieel
for a dev/user separation, it makes no sense. But if you think of all users are devs / skilled tinkerers, i appreciate the Gentoo approach
12:42
xthenode
cross-compiling complicates and slows dev time
12:42
vup
(using the still very wip xilinx nextpnr support one could theoretically build some bitstreams on ARM, not sure how far one would get with our gateware though)
12:42
BAndiT1983
xthenode: not that much, as the real hardware is often slower
12:43
danieel
cross-compiling is outputting a binary for other arch, it IS NOT a performance hit in any sense
12:43
xthenode
so i guess thts a NO
12:43
xthenode
just a suggestion
12:44
danieel
what cpu have you suggested?
12:44
xthenode
arm
12:44
danieel
which ?
12:44
xthenode
dont care
12:44
danieel
can you do thunderx2 / centriq?
12:45
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12:45
xthenode
as long as a linux dev env that generates code that con be run on the camera..
12:45
BAndiT1983
have used compiling on the real PI through the big visual studio via remote feature, but it was often slower than local cross-compiling
12:46
xthenode
i use make and qt creator on pi 4. plenty fast.
12:47
vup
well, how long does it take to compile the linux kernel on a pi4?
12:47
xthenode
providing a cheap dev board would encourage dev for the camera
12:47
danieel
xthenode: devs dont already have computers? or what?
12:48
vup
I don't see how providing a dev board would make thing easier than we already have here: https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/axiom-firmware
12:48
vup
are you running into any problems with compiling / building the firmware?
12:49
xthenode
its linux. rebuilding the os is not necessary for most system and application software
12:50
vup
so what software are you exactly talking about, which would be compiled on the dev board?
12:50
xthenode
it would only be for development
12:51
xthenode
standard linux dev env. pick one.
12:52
vup
(also the firmware is a lot more than just linux, it also compiles a lot of other software for the camera, like the control daemon, various tools used to control the camera, development tools, etc)
12:52
xthenode
apps, daemons and drivers
12:53
xthenode
if set-up properly, modules can be used for drivers
12:53
vup
sure, I don't see how a dedicated dev board would help there. Either you need a full camera to do actual driver work etc, or you can just test the software on your normal computer if you don't interface with any hardware specific stuf anyways
12:53
danieel
i would suggest to xthenode to make a benchmark, and show the improvement factor
12:53
vup
if you already have a full camera you can just compile on the camera itself (atleast small stuff)
12:54
vup
now if you are talking about a cheaper version of the camera that could be used for development, this is what the https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Micro is about
12:56
xthenode
ok. looks good.
12:57
xthenode
if it can be like a pc with desktop env. awsome.
12:57
xthenode
price?
12:58
vup
Well software wise it runs arch, so you can do what ever you want, no gpu though, so if you mean a graphical desktop by "desktop env", it will be painful (also no native video output, but we got a linux framebuffer via HDMI working with a HDMI plugin module)
12:58
vup
xthenode: you can build it yourself for ~150â¬
13:00
xthenode
well i would say upping this product would be a great way to promote apertus
13:01
xthenode
all i know is the pi 4 has changed everything.
13:01
xthenode
kinda like musk landing that rocket on its butt.
13:03
vup
well it needs polishing work before we want to push it more
13:04
BAndiT1983
pi4 is good, but it's still a small-scale thing
13:04
xthenode
big things start small
13:04
BAndiT1983
although the 3d stuff on it was impressive, have used it a couple of months ago for another open source project
13:05
vup
also if you expect anything near pi 4 performance, you will get severly disappointed (as I said, no gpu and the cpu is more pi 1/2 level I think)
13:05
xthenode
i could work on it.
13:07
xthenode
i started in the 4mhz era
13:07
xthenode
i know slow
13:08
xthenode
thats why in design, less is more.
13:08
BAndiT1983
it's always relative, back then it was all fast
13:08
BAndiT1983
yes, i remember turbo button, config.sys nad autoexec.bat, himem.sys etc. ;)
13:10
xthenode
will ever need more than 640k...
13:11
xthenode
i appreciate the feedback
13:11
vup
xthenode: so if you want to work on the micro, what are your areas of expertise? The gateware is written is a python DSL named nmigen, software is currently python + rust mostly, hardware is done in kicad)
13:14
xthenode
c/c++, in Linux, MacOSX and windows, linux kernel work, lowl-level firmware using JTAG
13:14
xthenode
SolidWorks, Autodesk and Orcad
13:15
xthenode
microcoding of massively parallel hardware
13:16
xthenode
cpu design using bit-slices
13:16
xthenode
...
13:18
xthenode
i started just wanting to do CAD to design motorcycle parts which ended up being an odyssey
13:18
vup
c/c++ seems like a good fit for the Remote maybe? <- BAndiT1983
13:18
xthenode
did you see my email?
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BAndiT1983
vup: yep, i know xthenode from some years ago, but OC is dormant at the moment and the qt got crappy, regarding the license and the approach of the company
13:20
BAndiT1983
xthenode: yes, email is there, am just working so can only react sometimes, have to finish some stuff before the year ends
13:20
xthenode
i just use creator for dev
13:21
BAndiT1983
qt company wants to slow down the releases for community, so looking for alternatives or maybe even a webapp, which uses the core
13:22
xthenode
the important thing is the server and client libraries
13:23
xthenode
did you like the server name idea?
13:24
BAndiT1983
:D after looking the meaning up again, hope it won't be a vaporware
13:24
BAndiT1983
just kidding, vapoursynth is also a good product out there
13:25
xthenode
it kinda goes with apertus
13:25
xthenode
in a whole theory of opposites way...
13:28
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13:28
xthenode
xthenode is a web-based ui used to generate code and project files
13:28
vup
xthenode: so there are two control daemons currently. There is https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/nctrl written in rust. This is the one used on the current firmware and it works together with https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/webui.
13:28
vup
Then there is https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/axiom-control-daemon, not sure what the plan is with that going forward
13:28
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13:30
xthenode
the actual daemon is less important than the apis and transports used to talk to it
13:31
xthenode
the beauty of microservices
13:32
BAndiT1983
if there is already one which is actively developed, have just put the old one into hibernation mode for now
13:32
BAndiT1983
but for development we will also use simpler implementation in python, to replicate the protocols and to test the visualiser for remote quicker
13:34
vup
We have been thinking about using flatbuffers for serialization over network, API wise its not too fleshed out, the current state of the flatbuffers API is documented here: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Control_Daemon
13:35
BAndiT1983
flatbuffers was also used in the C++ version
13:35
vup
The rust control daemon just provides a fuse filesystem, which the webui looks at using basic programs like `find` :)
13:35
xthenode
ive used googles version...
13:36
BAndiT1983
protobuf
13:36
BAndiT1983
it's good, but flatbuffers is slim
13:36
xthenode
protobuf
13:36
vup
p sure flatbuffers is also a google thing :)
13:36
BAndiT1983
have also create a fix/improvement for the Go version some years ago, when we were the first time joining gsoc, but heard nothing from the maintainers
13:38
xthenode
c++ is my forte. since the kernel is written in C.
13:39
xthenode
node.js rocks though...
13:39
BAndiT1983
yep, but with SWIG you can serve the interfaces pretty good
13:39
BAndiT1983
kicad does it for the C++ to Python, so one can use their api from python, works rather good, docs are meh, so mostly googling for examples or reading source code
13:42
xthenode
to make things simple where speed is not a problem, i use cgi.
13:44
xthenode
so is json to slow for transport?
13:45
xthenode
sony uses it for their apis
13:45
vup
I would like a transport with a strong schema, which json doesn't really provide on its own.
13:46
BAndiT1983
JSON can have a string schema, using it at work a lot, but flatbuffers is much smaller, which saves bandwidth
13:46
BAndiT1983
also deserializing there is not that CPU-heavy
13:46
BAndiT1983
*strong
13:46
vup
I guess if you do JSON + a schema I don't see why one would not do something like flatbuffers
13:47
BAndiT1983
exactly
13:47
xthenode
json = xml kinda
13:47
BAndiT1983
we have to do quite some validation, as the JSON data is deserialized to Java objects etc., so in the background Spring Boot is doing quite some schema checking
13:47
BAndiT1983
JSON is much smaller, as it's doesn't repeat the tags, like XML does
13:47
xthenode
libjson...
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xthenode
json IS better for transport and encoding. i agree.
13:49
BAndiT1983
and i just remember my current struggle with SOAP (XML), then i would prefer flatbuffers, then JSON and XML at last
13:49
xthenode
my point was if you can have an xml schema then also a json one
13:49
vup
xthenode: json and xml are very different, xml has builtin support for for schemas / validation, json does not have that
13:49
danieel
or you can go ASN :)
13:50
vup
:)
13:50
xthenode
thats why node is so cool.
13:52
xthenode
i would say. focus on the api
13:54
BAndiT1983
xthenode: then you should look at OpenAPI/Swagger ;)
13:57
xthenode
similar to the rest api generator i did for verizon.
13:58
xthenode
i started working on a json based one for the sony api
14:00
xthenode
might want to consider a web-based one for apertus
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BAndiT1983
what do you mean by "web-based one"?
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BAndiT1983
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BAndiT1983|away
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se6ast1an
off to bed
21:55
se6ast1an
good night
21:58
Bertl_oO
nn
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