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| 01:04 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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| 06:34 | Topic | apertus° - open source cinema | www.apertus.org | Currently Hot: AXIOM Beta https://apertus.org/axiom-beta | IRC Logs available at: http://irc.apertus.org
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| 06:34 | se6astian | has set the topic |
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| 10:13 | se6astian | good day!
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| 11:04 | Bertl | morning folks!
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| 12:52 | danieel | interesting price on the pocket bm camera...
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| 13:00 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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| 13:25 | Bertl | danieel: how so?
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| 13:25 | danieel | dropped to half till end of sept
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| 13:26 | danieel | end of august
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| 13:27 | Bertl | so price dumping again, I presume
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| 13:30 | Bertl | I'm curious what message this sends to customers in general
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| 13:31 | Bertl | for exisiting: look, we charged you twice the amount for the same camera a few months ago :)
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| 13:31 | Bertl | for new ones: hey, we can't sell the product, so we half the price now :)
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| 13:32 | Bertl | or maybe it is a completely different message
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| 13:33 | danieel | they maybe do something better (gs, hfr) and those stocked units wont be sellable
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| 13:34 | danieel | but i assume there wont be any big announcement at ibc
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| 21:04 | se6astian | time for bed
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| 21:04 | se6astian | night night
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| 22:01 | troy_s | Egads.
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| 22:02 | troy_s | When did the Black Magick camera drop to 500$?
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| 22:02 | troy_s | Erf.
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| 22:10 | danieel | few days back
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| 22:10 | danieel | july 16th is the news announcement
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| 22:10 | troy_s | Crazy.
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| 22:10 | danieel | what do you think of it ?
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| 22:11 | troy_s | I'm not a fan of the cameras due to the smaller sensor and the lack of offspeed, but at 500$ it's damn tempting.
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| 22:11 | troy_s | My axes of evaluation for this camera are:
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| 22:11 | troy_s | 1) Latitude and format (both a win - raw Bayer and latitude are pretty decent)
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| 22:11 | troy_s | 2) Sensor size (a loss here)
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| 22:11 | troy_s | 3) Off speed (a loss here)
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| 22:12 | troy_s | But when I look at all three and then compare price... it makes for an actual decision.
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| 22:12 | danieel | resolution is poor.. (fhd@bayer)... even the F3 got enough cells to produce fhd 4:4:4
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| 22:12 | troy_s | (at 1000$ it is ridiculuous)
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| 22:12 | troy_s | ?
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| 22:12 | troy_s | What's the price on the F3?
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| 22:12 | troy_s | (Haven't seen it. Is it a Sony?)
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| 22:12 | danieel | not comparable, as for the rest of the features
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| 22:13 | danieel | i think that there is no other camera which relies on pure fhd bayer sensor today..
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| 22:18 | troy_s | danieel: It's a pretty damn good camera at that price
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| 22:18 | troy_s | for what it is. The balance is pretty damn reasonable.
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| 22:19 | troy_s | The photosites still resolve to the lens which is always going to be an issue for CMOS.
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| 22:19 | danieel | what issue?
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| 22:21 | troy_s | Well the lens is going to resolve down across a smudge of G/B/R sites
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| 22:21 | troy_s | and we will always be facing the reality of missing data
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| 22:21 | troy_s | (Unless we go to a CCD or such)
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| 22:21 | troy_s | make sense?
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| 22:22 | danieel | does not. the ccd is same bayer pattern as cmos
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| 22:22 | troy_s | Some CCDs I thought were stacked
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| 22:22 | troy_s | But perhaps I am mistaken
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| 22:22 | danieel | for stills only (foveon)
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| 22:22 | troy_s | I know there were a few sensors out there based on that model
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| 22:22 | troy_s | Ah well, you get my point.
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| 22:23 | troy_s | (hopefully)
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| 22:23 | danieel | they recently went on to loose some of that stacking to increase luma resolution, colors get subsampled
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| 22:23 | danieel | the stacked ones can not yet be used for video.. so that is not a point
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| 22:23 | troy_s | Interesting. Those sorts of sensors would introduce a film-like crosstalk.
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| 22:24 | danieel | crosstalk is just a shifted color space, can be restored or enforced by the 3x3 matrix..
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| 22:25 | danieel | i do not like the bmpcc's rolling shutter... even that latitude is great, the yello efect ruins practical use
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| 22:25 | troy_s | danieel: Not really
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| 22:25 | troy_s | (agree on shutter)
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| 22:25 | troy_s | But crosstalk is a very real concern in VFX land
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| 22:26 | danieel | explain more in depth, that intersts me
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| 22:26 | troy_s | hence why keyers almost always want to be operating on the raw camera "space" (not that a camera really has a space per se)
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| 22:26 | troy_s | Well a non-crosstalked set of data has some nuances to it that are smudged apparently when you take it into a different transform.
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| 22:26 | danieel | isnt it confused then with a color subsampling? (usually you get 422 out of cameras)
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| 22:26 | troy_s | (for example, you and I might be able to pull a key using the edge information strictly from a luminance pass across the raw bayer)
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| 22:27 | danieel | that is unusual
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| 22:27 | troy_s | It makes sense though
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| 22:27 | troy_s | The lowest to the steel data you get of the lens resolving to some data
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| 22:27 | troy_s | is in that raw bayered image
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| 22:27 | danieel | (recently saw some pro bw photographer who pulls bw shots from raw stills)
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| 22:27 | danieel | ah
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| 22:27 | troy_s | And as soon as you debayer you are 'smudging' that
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| 22:27 | danieel | i get it where the issue comes from
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| 22:28 | troy_s | the difference between what is captured (critical for keying) and what color it represents is blurred
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| 22:28 | troy_s | (literally I suppose :) ()
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| 22:28 | danieel | when you apply 3x3 matrix / arbitrary "crosstalk", then you are corrupting the physical position of pixels
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| 22:28 | troy_s | Bingo
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| 22:28 | danieel | as the input elements are sampled at different pos
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| 22:28 | troy_s | Exactly.
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| 22:28 | troy_s | So your citing goes to shit
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| 22:28 | danieel | good, finally what we agree both on :)
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| 22:28 | troy_s | (I thought we agreed often. Communication sucks.)
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| 22:28 | troy_s | (Little did I know)
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| 22:29 | danieel | :)
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| 22:29 | troy_s | (Citing is actually a huge issue in subsampling anyways)
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| 22:29 | danieel | both have our set of truth
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| 22:29 | danieel | citing?
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| 22:29 | troy_s | (IIRC Greg's work on "Toward Better Subsampling" covered that a bit)
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| 22:29 | troy_s | Citing
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| 22:29 | danieel | whats that?
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| 22:29 | troy_s | where the given sample lay in spatial sense
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| 22:29 | troy_s | If you think of a standard lerp
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| 22:29 | troy_s | the interpolated value rests precisely at 0.5 distance
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| 22:29 | danieel | lot of new words today.. lerp?
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| 22:30 | troy_s | LERP == Linear Interpolation
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| 22:30 | troy_s | Hrm. How to describe.
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| 22:30 | troy_s | Think of it this way
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| 22:30 | troy_s | Think of three pixels
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| 22:30 | troy_s | expressed as a bar graph
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| 22:30 | troy_s | looking at the side
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| 22:30 | troy_s | when we draw a line from the middle of the first bar graph to the third
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| 22:30 | troy_s | the line precisely crosses the middle of the middle bar graph at the midway point
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| 22:31 | troy_s | A cubic scale
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| 22:31 | troy_s | will create a curve that doesn't quite end up precisely at that mid point - the citing is off.
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| 22:31 | troy_s | (As for tents, box, Lanczos, Sincs etc.)
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| 22:32 | danieel | so this is upsampling of the subsampled color channels, where they do not match? got a little lost
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| 22:32 | troy_s | Yes
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| 22:32 | troy_s | upsampling and how that RGB set is generated
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| 22:32 | danieel | and that error multiplies by consecutive color transformations
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| 22:33 | troy_s | http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/chroma/chroma1.htm
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| 22:33 | troy_s | Exactly.
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| 22:33 | troy_s | Glen's work has pictures!
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| 22:33 | troy_s | It's great to look at as some issues that are obvious become clear, despite rarely entering one's world view.
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| 22:33 | danieel | (that is why i preferred to keep my stuff in DNG... it keeps bayer, unless other formats)
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| 22:33 | troy_s | Sure.
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| 22:34 | troy_s | But at some point you have to futz with crap in RGB
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| 22:34 | troy_s | or a tri-color world
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| 22:36 | danieel | btw how would you deal with moare? strong sw - adaptive processing, or just proper OLPF?
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| 22:36 | troy_s | God that's a huge question.
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| 22:36 | troy_s | I know that the typical method goes as follows that I have seen:
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| 22:36 | troy_s | 1) Filters on lens. Smudge it. Likely not preferred by some.
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| 22:36 | danieel | have noticed that f5 or f55 has a set of olpf for different uses
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| 22:36 | troy_s | 2) Change the goddamn thing.
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| 22:36 | troy_s | (as in if it is wardrobe, change it.)
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| 22:37 | troy_s | that's the reality I have seen
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| 22:37 | troy_s | Yes. There's filters.
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