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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2017/04/17

Timezone: UTC


00:20
davidak
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jucar
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02:25
Spirit532
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jucar
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06:03
Rex0r
Greets.
06:04
Rex0r
Meets today.
07:28
pusle
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08:50
Rex0r
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09:19
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
09:19
Bertl
morning folks!
11:32
Spirit532
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Rex0r
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jucar
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pusle
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BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
14:37
derWalter_
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derWalter__
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derWalter_
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jucar
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arpu
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se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
15:29
arpu
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15:29
se6astian
good evening
15:31
christoph_varga
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15:51
intracube
irc meeting in 70 mins?
15:51
Bertl
10mins
15:52
intracube
taps watch
15:52
intracube
:)
15:52
Bertl
ah, my wrong, 70 minutes
15:52
derWalter__
19:00 not 18:00 CET?
15:52
intracube
wasn't sure about winter/summer clocks
15:53
Bertl
nah, problem was the GSoC deadline is at 18:00 CEST
15:53
Bertl
and I mixed that up
15:53
intracube
so irc meeting isn't @ 18:00 CET?
15:54
intracube
oh, nvm
15:54
intracube
CEST = summer time
15:54
derWalter__
IRC MEETING @ 19:00 CET
15:54
dasChristoph[m]
joined the channel
15:54
intracube
derWalter__: no need to shout
15:55
Bertl
that would actually be 20:00 CEST, no?
15:55
Bertl
but I think sebastian simply got that wrong :)
15:55
derWalter__
mhhhhhh is cet not always the actual time eg summer or winter, depending on the date?
15:55
derWalter__
but CEST is more accurate for sure :)
15:55
Bertl
no, it isn't
15:56
derWalter__
so cet = winter and cest = summertime?
15:57
derWalter__
European countries using CET in the winter and CEST in the summer
15:57
intracube
it's 17:57 CEST, so meeting is @ 19:00 CEST
15:57
intracube
or 17:00 UTC
15:57
derWalter__
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/cet
15:57
intracube
or 18:00 BST
15:58
Bertl
se6astian: can you confirm 19:00 CEST?
15:58
intracube
timezones are fun
15:58
Bertl
that's why I always suggest to use UTC :)
15:59
RexOrCine[m]
GMTs the one.
15:59
RexOrCine[m]
It's more central to the world.
15:59
derWalter__
utc sounds like a cool idea.
16:00
Bertl
RexOrCine[m]: UTC is not a time zone
16:01
RexOrCine[m]
Ultimate Time Club?
16:02
RexOrCine[m]
Universal Time Continuum?
16:02
Bertl
yeah, well, the acronym is quite funny
16:02
Bertl
it stands for Coordinated Universal Time and Temps Universel Coordonne, and they basically met in the middle :)
16:04
Bertl
i.e. the English wanted CUT, the French, TUC, so it was abbreviated UTC, imagine that!
16:06
Bertl
and yes (to answer the question regarding CE(S)T) they are different time zones which do not change over the course of the year, we just switch from one to the other
16:07
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
16:14
RexOrCine[m]
So it's meeting in 15 minutes UTC then.
16:15
Bertl
hmm?
16:16
derWalter__
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derWalter_
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16:19
kaiserlich
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16:26
intracube
T -33 mins
16:30
se6astian
19:00 CEST yes, in 30 minutes
16:31
Bertl
so everybody not in CEST might arrive an hour late to the part :)
16:34
Bertl
hey kaiserlich! LTNS!
16:34
kaiserlich
heya!!
16:34
kaiserlich
yes, true
16:34
kaiserlich
busy, busy
16:34
Bertl
glad to see that you are still 'with us' in some way :)
16:35
kaiserlich
i'm currently organising 2 events so have no free time left, arghh
16:35
kaiserlich
also, working too much
16:36
Bertl
interesting events?
16:36
kaiserlich
one of them might be! (: http://pydays.at/
16:37
kaiserlich
the other is a django workshop for programming beginners https://djangogirls.org/vienna/
16:38
Bertl
are the pydays part of the linuxwochen or is there some relation?
16:38
kaiserlich
yes! oh wait, apertus has a booth again, too, right?
16:38
Bertl
yup
16:38
kaiserlich
well maybe you can sneak off if there's an interesting talk at pydays ^^
16:38
kaiserlich
it's FRI + SAT
16:39
Bertl
unfortunately, I'll only be there on thursday ...
16:39
Bertl
will be leaving to Make Munich on Friday
16:40
Bertl
soo .. why does the django workshop exclude folks like me?
16:40
derWalter_
are you into django as well @bertl ?
16:41
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
16:41
Bertl
@derWalter "Tote reden nicht..." :)
16:44
kaiserlich
Bertl because folks like you generally have it easier finding an "in"
16:45
derWalter_
left the channel
16:45
Bertl
ah, well, life isn't fair ... but I can always blame you for not knowing more about django 8-)
16:46
kaiserlich
if by folks like me you meant people who already know programming (; we ask those to coach!
16:47
Bertl
nah, I meant those people who are not women but have a preference for binary (i.e. binary persons?) :)
16:50
kaiserlich
see above! + i can give you a link to the official tutorial so you won't have to blame me (; it's all online
16:50
Bertl
ah, excellent!
16:57
davidak
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16:59
simonrepp
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16:59
davidak
good evening
16:59
intracube
afternoon
17:00
intracube
meeting time!
17:01
se6astian
indeed meeting time!
17:01
derWalter_
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17:01
se6astian
so welcome everyone, this is the first meeting where I also invited a wider community audience
17:01
se6astian
with the axiom-community mailing list
17:01
Bertl
(they might arrive an hour late though :)
17:02
morrigan1
changed nick to: morrigan
17:02
davidak
:D
17:02
se6astian
for those new: please pm me now if you have a topic to discuss or a development to report/present
17:02
se6astian
I will then give everyone a chance to speak in an orderly manner
17:03
se6astian
the meeting minutes will be summarized on the wiki and sent to the mailing lists soon after the meeting today
17:04
se6astian
right so I will start with brief points of what happened recently and whats about to happen:
17:04
se6astian
we ordered new flyers for the coming faires we will attend
17:04
se6astian
they were shipped already but were not 100% perfect yet
17:04
se6astian
details: https://lab.apertus.org/M11
17:05
se6astian
I already ordered another batch that will hopefully solve the issue
17:05
se6astian
new business cards are also being printed
17:05
se6astian
we will attend maker faire sachsen in chemnitz the next weekend
17:06
se6astian
further faires will follow soon then afterwards: vienna, munich, berlin
17:06
se6astian
in may/june
17:06
se6astian
actually two events in vienna: maker faire vienna and linuxwochen wien
17:07
se6astian
ok then I hand over to Bertl for his update
17:07
Bertl
thanks, on the hardware side, here some updates:
17:07
Bertl
The Trenz board and carrier arrived and was tested - seems to be perfect for the job. (Artix for 4K HDMI testing and similar)
17:08
Bertl
New version v0.30 Power Board has arrived, is now waiting to get assembled.
17:08
Bertl
The new 3xmDP Plugin v1.3 (with the correct pinout) has arrived and a prototype was assembled which will be tested soon.
17:08
Bertl
The new HDMI Shield v0.2 has arrived and a prototype was assembled (will be tested soon I hope).
17:09
Bertl
The new USB 3.0 Plugin has arrived and was assembled, testing will require a lot of work on the software side though.
17:09
Bertl
Once again, I spent most of the remaining time with reworking and testing AXIOM Beta boards.
17:10
Bertl
The good news, we probably have a bunch of working Betas for the upcoming Faires :)
17:10
Bertl
Speaking of: because we always get people asking how it is possible to work with SMD at home, we decided to make a FOSS/OH SMD workshop on the upcoming Faires starting with Munich.
17:10
morrigan
:)
17:10
Bertl
For this purpose, we prepared a few simple designs which interested folks can builddirectly at the stand (with our help and of course parts will be provided at cost).
17:11
Bertl
*build directly
17:11
Bertl
The devices are basically OH pendants with a bunch of LEDs, a micro controller and a battery, and can be programmed with FOSS tools.
17:11
Bertl
they are designed to be built by beginners
17:12
Bertl
that's all from my side
17:12
se6astian
thanks, how many betas will be hardware complete soon?
17:12
Rex0r
Are pictures of the building of these boards being taken?
17:13
se6astian
we will surely take pictures at the booths at the faires
17:13
Bertl
between two and six units, depending on the (to be assembled) SFEs
17:13
se6astian
right
17:13
se6astian
derWalter you turn
17:13
Rex0r
The new plugins*
17:13
se6astian
*your
17:13
derWalter_
:)
17:13
se6astian
Rex0r: probably not
17:14
derWalter_
so, for everyone, who does not know about the Apertus documentary
17:14
derWalter_
we prepared a link with the history and the goal of it: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest
17:14
derWalter_
in short: all our efforts to document the project ended up in a big confusion about the following questions: dasChristoph:
17:14
derWalter_
1 who and what is Apertus? (who is making the decisions and how are they formed)
17:15
derWalter_
2 what is the goal of Apertus?
17:15
derWalter_
3 what is the role of the community?
17:15
derWalter_
To finalize the documentary we need the help of all people who want the project to succeed.
17:15
derWalter_
we need you to answer three questions:
17:15
derWalter_
1. what is the revolutionary potential of the apertus project in your eyes/for you? - Name three things in order of importance!
17:16
derWalter_
2. what is needed to be changed in the project (structure, roles, communication, style, whatever comes to your mind...) to fully unleash this potential? - Name three things in order of importance!
17:16
derWalter_
3. What could be done now, by you, to help the project in the long run? - name at least one thing!
17:16
dasChristoph[m]
We would like to record this "on camera", but to shorten things up,
17:16
dasChristoph[m]
we would like to do it by skype or something similar and make a very short and fast motivational clip out of it.
17:17
dasChristoph[m]
Get in touch with us, if you want to helpt the project and by quickly telling us your point of view of it and answering this short three questions!
17:17
dasChristoph[m]
lets start now, by discussing all six questions now, right here, right now, everyone talking top to bottom in the irc channel, user list, one after an other, max. 1 minute, same rights/time for everyone attending this meeting.
17:17
Bertl
Why use a proprietary tool like skype?
17:17
kaiserlich
haha ;D
17:17
derWalter_
(jeetsi is also possible)
17:17
dasChristoph[m]
any other is ok ;)
17:17
derWalter_
riot.im prefered
17:18
dasChristoph[m]
who first? let us know what you are thinking
17:18
se6astian
dasChristoph[m]: Get in touch with us <- what are your contact details?
17:19
derWalter_
_florent_ alexml anyone of you here and want to say something? :)
17:19
simonrepp
i would suggest we send this call for help out over the mailing list(s)?
17:19
se6astian
dasChristoph[m]: lets start now, by discussing all six questions now, right here, right now <-lets with those interested after we finish the team meeting
17:19
Bertl
well, if they wanted to, they probably would, no? :)
17:19
se6astian
*lets talk
17:20
dasChristoph[m]
would be great to start here
17:20
kaiserlich
after sounds like a good idea, so the team meeting doesn't get dragged out (:
17:20
Bertl
agreed
17:21
derWalter_
I would like to hear more voices, are all those people afk here?
17:21
derWalter_
afk=away from keyboard
17:21
davidak
i have an opinion on that but it is a little too spontaneous right now
17:22
derWalter_
davidak, speak up :)
17:22
davidak
let's do it later
17:22
simonrepp
i am also in favor of a) discussion after the meeting, b) call for help over the mailing list, only a fraction of potential users who could help out are present herre
17:23
se6astian
right, thanks for reporting, we can definitely help with taking this to the mailing list
17:23
se6astian
intracube: your turn
17:23
simonrepp
and most of them are kinda mentally occupied with trying to give concise summaries of their work and/or hosting/documeting the meeting itself .. :)
17:23
intracube
hi
17:23
derWalter_
okay
17:23
intracube
I have a few thoughts on the last topic, will post them near the end
17:23
intracube
on to OLPFs
17:23
derWalter_
we are setting up an emailadress right now
17:23
dasChristoph[m]
(the contact is: apertusdok@gmail.com )
17:24
intracube
a couple of weeks back, we ran a twitter poll to get people's views on optical low-pass filters
17:24
intracube
the result are here: https://twitter.com/apertususer/status/848584997388812289
17:24
intracube
as you can see, it's fairly split down the middle
17:24
Bertl
what's the difference between quite important and essential?
17:24
intracube
but even so, hopefully it can guide how much effort is expended on this
17:25
intracube
Bertl: it's rather subjective
17:25
intracube
an OLPF section has been added to the wiki
17:25
intracube
there are some links to possible suppliers
17:25
Bertl
so the poll was a little in favor of an OLPF, yes?
17:25
kaiserlich
i'd say essential = can't do without; quite important = can do without but would rather not
17:26
intracube
yep, if you combine quite important + essential
17:26
intracube
which seems fair
17:26
intracube
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Beta/AXIOM_Beta_Hardware#Optical_Low-pass_Filter_.28OLPF.29
17:26
intracube
it might be worth getting a show of hands here, for/against
17:27
intracube
for anyone who didn't take part in the poll
17:27
derWalter_
hey guys, its not cool to go to the next point, without finishing the last one
17:27
Bertl
so for me the question here would really be, would you pay, let's say 400 bucks (10%?) for an OLPF on the Beta?
17:27
intracube
derWalter_: sorry, I thought the topic had been handed to me
17:27
alexML
re OLPF: are there any sample image that show aliasing?
17:27
derWalter_
sebastian just gave this one off, without giving us the time to finish out point
17:27
intracube
derWalter_: sorry, feel free to finish
17:27
intracube
will hold :)
17:28
intracube
alexML: check the wiki link
17:28
derWalter_
sry intracube, it happened so quickly, we were a little bit stunned
17:28
derWalter_
sry to interfere now..
17:28
intracube
no problem :)
17:28
alexML
intracube: was the image taken with the Beta?
17:28
se6astian
sorry, but our team meetings so far have been very quick very brief reports the last times so I assumed you were done
17:28
alexML
if yes, I'd like to see the DNG
17:29
intracube
alexML: hold on a mo, derWalter_ still has a few bits and pieces
17:29
derWalter_
simon said he wanted to send this over the email list
17:29
derWalter_
i would like to know which one and who decidedes what gets sent?
17:29
se6astian
yes and I offered to help with doing that
17:30
derWalter_
but what mailing list?
17:30
se6astian
the team mailing list?
17:31
se6astian
anyone can send to the team mailing list
17:31
Bertl
derWalter_: so, what is your point? (to finish it :)
17:31
morrigan
hmm
17:31
morrigan
since we are apparently discussing this now...
17:31
derWalter_
well we wanted to hear some one else then sebastian and bertl to say something about it :)
17:32
morrigan
I only have one comment immediately. question 2."what is needed to be changed in the project(), name three things). This already implies changes are needed, which is in my opinion the wrong wording.
17:32
dasChristoph[m]
how would you ask?
17:32
morrigan
It implies that the current structure/roles/way of communication are somehow flawed/not working
17:32
derWalter_
well this is regarding the first question: "what is the revolutionary potential of the apertus project in your eyes/for you? "
17:32
dasChristoph[m]
would be nice to agree on the questions
17:33
dasChristoph[m]
or on new ones!
17:33
morrigan
I would ask "Do you have any suggestions to improve upon (list of things)"
17:33
morrigan
Your wording implies you have already identified a problem and are actively searching for solutions.
17:33
derWalter_
the problem with this is, that people wont leave their comfort zones
17:34
derWalter_
because they threaten them self with opening up and saying what they really think
17:34
intracube
quick notes on 3 strengths/things to improve:
17:34
intracube
Strengths:: 1a. personal customisation 1b. lack of 'lock-in' or artificial feature limitations 1c. ability for a competing manufacturer to take the designs build the hardware (reduces the single point of failure)
17:34
Rex0r
"Do you have any suggestions which might improve how the community functions"*
17:34
intracube
Issues:: 2a. stronger formal structure and roles 2b. consider cutting down and rationalising the feature list, (at least early on to avoid getting overloaded 2c
17:34
derWalter_
so by asking a question like this, the person asking is taking the "blame" and the people feeling safe to talk about uncomfortable opinions
17:34
intracube
couldn't think of 2c
17:35
derWalter_
morrigan thats what the whole project is about
17:35
morrigan
No, by asking the question like this you generate a wrong impression, simple as that.
17:35
derWalter_
nope, we can prove on many levels that it is like this
17:35
derWalter_
we are researching this topic for years now and have a lot of material on this :/
17:36
derWalter_
we just dont want to crush the project with all of it
17:36
morrigan
So, then, which problems have you identified?
17:36
derWalter_
(who is making the decisions and how are they formed)
17:36
derWalter_
what is the goal of Apertus?
17:36
derWalter_
in the end: who is deciding what happend with 1,5mil ⬠?
17:37
derWalter_
there was a call for revolutionizing the camera market with an open source camera, a lot of momentum was generated and a lot of money as well
17:37
morrigan
So, just to be clear, your self-appointed role is policing the project? You have me confused.
17:37
Bertl
we get 1.5 milion euros? sounds great!
17:38
derWalter_
bertl, how much did you get all in all?
17:38
Bertl
you mean from the crowd funding?
17:38
derWalter_
lets count crowdfunding + EU + staging money?
17:38
dasChristoph[m]
we got frustrated in contributing because of this, that is the reason we started the doc project
17:38
se6astian
even though this sounds like a hot debate that could go on for quite some time lets keep this breif now so we can finish the meeting before 20:00
17:38
intracube
:)
17:38
morrigan
ah, so the doc project is not documentation FOR the project but ABOUT the project
17:39
dasChristoph[m]
j
17:39
derWalter_
nope morrigan
17:39
davidak
yes, please discuss this later
17:39
dasChristoph[m]
about and for
17:39
derWalter_
it is FOR the project by ABOUT
17:39
derWalter_
raising questions and finding solutions and then projecting the postive meaning on the project trough the documentary
17:40
dasChristoph[m]
can we have time at the end of the list?
17:40
morrigan
sounds like a phrase right out of any project management training I have ever slep through. That doesn't change the fact that your wording is not neutral.
17:40
derWalter_
it is not neutral on purpose
17:40
morrigan
Then you are lying, on purpose.
17:40
morrigan
To generate negative answers.
17:41
intracube
morrigan: that's rather harsh
17:41
derWalter_
i am not lying
17:41
morrigan
I don't see the value FOR the project in a methodology as tjis.
17:41
derWalter_
i can validate my arguments, but this will take hours
17:41
dasChristoph[m]
we would like to invite you to rephrase the questions
17:41
derWalter_
firs
17:41
morrigan
I did.
17:41
derWalter_
and secondly, you are implying that finding and talking about problems is negative
17:41
derWalter_
i call it evoultion or learning
17:41
morrigan
No, read what I said
17:42
derWalter_
if we look an the parts we are failing at, we can learn and leave restrictions behind
17:42
morrigan
I say that phrasing questions in this way, to imply there is a problem when there is no evidence of one, is dodgy.
17:42
derWalter_
maybe you have a look at: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest
17:42
derWalter_
morrigan we know, we met several evenings and discussed this
17:42
simonrepp
i don't think this is the right place for the discussion emerging here, i'll add my +1 to sebastian's comment to please make it short and wrap it up
17:42
morrigan
Fair enough, it was not my idea to do this now.
17:43
derWalter_
morrigan you seem to get the points and i really like your way of critique
17:43
derWalter_
are you interessted to clear this up with us some time?
17:43
dasChristoph[m]
for all who are interested in developing this topic please inform us at apertusdok@gmail.com
17:43
se6astian
derWalter, dasChristoph[m] closing statements for this point please
17:43
dasChristoph[m]
close topic for now
17:43
se6astian
thanks
17:44
se6astian
so returning to the topic of OLPF, intracube
17:44
derWalter_
we need a plattform for dicsussions like this
17:44
intracube
hi
17:44
derWalter_
we lost a lot of momentum over the past years and there are obvious reasons
17:44
intracube
alexML: regarding the footage with aliasing, I can point to the .MOV file I used, but you'd need to speak to se6astian about the actual source
17:44
Bertl
#derWalter ?
17:44
davidak
you can always come to irc, we have the mailing list, we have the lab, ...
17:44
derWalter_
all that ended in a dead end
17:45
intracube
alexML: I think it was early alpha footage
17:45
morrigan
irc is fine, too many different platforms make it to ohard to consolidate information.
17:45
derWalter_
RIGHT
17:45
intracube
but either way, it's the same sensor, so the results will be the same as with the Beta
17:45
derWalter_
point one
17:45
kaiserlich
can we let intracube talk now
17:45
kaiserlich
please
17:45
simonrepp
yes agree, please
17:45
se6astian
Bertl: do I remember correctly that we ordered a small sample of an OLPF some time ago, or was it only a UV/IR cut of filter sample?
17:46
Bertl
good question ... I remember that we planned to do that
17:46
derWalter_
i would like to agree but i see that the aggraving topic is just pushed out of the way
17:46
se6astian
"small sample" smaller than the apsc sensor area
17:46
derWalter_
aggravating
17:46
Bertl
yeah, something like 1x1cm or so
17:47
Bertl
have to check if we ever got that ...
17:47
se6astian
please do
17:47
intracube
derWalter_: it's more that it's taken up 30 mins. but structure of these meetings is a good thing to work on
17:47
se6astian
we could do some tests with it
17:47
intracube
eg, give each topic X minutes
17:47
intracube
anything else can be rolled into an after-meeting discussion
17:47
kaiserlich
yeah, like a stand-up meeting
17:48
Bertl
with a stand-up comedian? :)
17:48
morrigan
no, agile/scrum
17:48
Bertl
no swear words please ... :)
17:48
se6astian
so intracube, in any case: if we add an OLPF it should be modular
17:49
derWalter_
morrigan, yes, no agile/scrum :P
17:49
intracube
se6astian: yes, and likely would fall into 'optional extra' category
17:49
se6astian
so we need to find a way to use the camera with OLPF or with UV/IR filter only
17:49
derWalter_
no holacracy, no sociocracy
17:49
intracube
price point seems to be sub-$200 at a rough estimate
17:49
se6astian
my current approach is to develop a shim layer to insert under the lens mount in case we do not find an OLPF and IR/UV filter that have same thickness/density (which I consider quite unlikely)
17:49
intracube
se6astian: it seems likely that you could order an OLPF with different thickness
17:50
intracube
so might be possible to balance that with the UV/IR requirement
17:50
intracube
to avoid backfocus issues
17:50
Bertl
we probably need to balance three 'filter' though
17:51
Bertl
or more precisely, several combinations
17:51
intracube
it's possible to get a combined OLPF/UV filter
17:51
intracube
but I haven't seen one with IR as well
17:51
Bertl
i.e. a) no filter, no OLPF b) UV/IR cut-off, c) UV/IR + OLPF
17:51
intracube
yep
17:52
se6astian
c) is one piece typically
17:52
intracube
has there been any talk about having the IR filter be removable?
17:52
se6astian
a) is just "glass"
17:52
se6astian
but yes you are right: 3 options in the end need to be covered
17:52
intracube
it's probably a niche requirement, but some people like to do IR landscape photos
17:53
se6astian
we try to keep everything modular/replaceable in general
17:54
se6astian
it would be interesting to talk to an optical engineer in that regard, if anyone has contacts please let me know
17:54
se6astian
my idea would be to offer a shim for every filter - that way we are rather flexible with thicknesses, FFD
17:54
se6astian
but its of course a bit cumbersome to change shim when changing filter
17:55
jucar
left the channel
17:55
se6astian
topic concluded from my side though
17:55
intracube
se6astian: briefly; any idea how the filter would be fixed in place?
17:55
Bertl
well, I doubt that folks who consider an OLPF very important or essential will remove it
17:56
intracube
might not be a good idea using a screwdriver that near to the sensor...
17:56
intracube
maybe a plastic clip arrangement?
17:56
se6astian
intracube: likely by a aluminum CNC milled "holder" which is screwed to the part holding the sensor
17:57
intracube
ok
17:57
se6astian
Bertl: right I also see it more as a one time assembly thing
17:57
Bertl
maybe an 'upgrade' at some point (cost factor)
17:57
se6astian
yes
17:57
intracube
agreed. most people are unlikely to want to swap it regularly
17:58
intracube
I think that's it from me
17:58
intracube
and if anyone finds any new suppliers, links can be added to the wiki
17:58
se6astian
thanks!
17:58
se6astian
so if there are no further points to discuss meeting is concluded
17:58
se6astian
the meeting minutes are going up on the wiki now
17:59
derWalter_
stopo
17:59
se6astian
when will we hold the next meeting
17:59
derWalter_
you said we will push the point to the end of the meeting
17:59
se6astian
8th of may would be an option
17:59
intracube
derWalter_: it's an open channel now, you're free to continue :)
17:59
Bertl
derWalter_: you can use up all our time and the channel in five minutes
18:00
kaiserlich
derWalter_ a full-on discussion, possibly longwinded, is not what the meeting is for
18:00
derWalter_
but there is no other meeting
18:00
derWalter_
thats the only meeting apertus have?
18:00
kaiserlich
but most people are still here?
18:00
davidak
se6astian: 8.5 is ok with me
18:00
Bertl
se6astian: sounds good to me too
18:00
se6astian
19:00 CES!T again?
18:00
se6astian
great, noted
18:00
derWalter_
kaiserlich: thats right!
18:01
intracube
se6astian: wasn't the last one 2 weeks ago?
18:01
se6astian
meeting concluded, derWalter feel free to cover your topics now in any length and depth :)
18:01
derWalter_
thx
18:01
intracube
ah no, 3 wk intervals
18:02
derWalter_
there was just one point we failed to nail down: is any one interessted in our work? :D
18:02
Bertl
derWalter_: you don't want our input (se6astian's and mine) anyway, so we can probably leave?
18:02
intracube
8th sounds good
18:02
derWalter_
Bertl, thats not right
18:02
kaiserlich
i think they want anyone's input
18:02
se6astian
intracube: last meeting was on 27th of march
18:02
derWalter_
but you and sebastian are the dominant people in the project and we wanted to hear other voices
18:02
dasChristoph[m]
yeah
18:03
derWalter_
or open the room, before you already gave the official statement on the topic
18:03
derWalter_
and everyone with a crictical statement will not say anything afterwards
18:03
kaiserlich
i like the idea of mailing your questions over the team mailing list
18:04
dasChristoph[m]
and you mailing back?
18:04
jucar
joined the channel
18:04
derWalter_
there are so many people involved now in the project and the whole structure is so obscure
18:04
kaiserlich
personally, i'd like to take more time to answer these questions, not a fan of questions getting sprung on me like that (:
18:05
dasChristoph[m]
i like a 'public' discussion but maybe it is a good idea to prepare the questions all together before
18:05
derWalter_
sry, but thats the only live meeting there is :/
18:05
dasChristoph[m]
i see.
18:05
derWalter_
we knew we are going to break the format a little bit
18:05
Bertl
we are always 'live' here on the channel
18:05
dasChristoph[m]
i understand that this is overwhelming
18:05
davidak
derWalter: i'm following the project for some years now and see you two the first time. what is your role and why have you decided to ask such questions right now?
18:05
derWalter_
http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest
18:06
kaiserlich
it's not that it is "overwhelming", i felt it was maybe a bit disruptive (of the meeting, which has a specific purpose) and in a format that doesn't fit me
18:06
derWalter_
davidak, thats exactly the thing :) :) :)
18:06
kaiserlich
and it's true that there are always people involved in the project in here
18:06
kaiserlich
involved in or interested in
18:07
derWalter_
davidak, have you had a read into the piratepadlink i ve posted?
18:07
Bertl
could you paste it again? *G*
18:08
morrigan
wait what
18:08
morrigan
"the whole structure is so obscure" ?
18:08
davidak
derWalter: i had no time to
18:08
derWalter_
just read the first lines
18:09
morrigan
well, well, well
18:09
derWalter_
i hope that cleares up a little bitt :)
18:09
Bertl
morrigan: I agree, we have no idea what derWalter and dasChristoph[m] are doing and why ...
18:09
dasChristoph[m]
is this the only 'public' and 'live' meeting for general purpose discussions?
18:09
kaiserlich
discussions take place in here all the time
18:10
derWalter_
bertl, havent you read our discussion @lab?
18:10
Bertl
dasChristoph[m]: and it is always live and public
18:10
derWalter_
but not a meeting
18:10
derWalter_
there is no meeting where people come and gather, to decide stuff
18:10
derWalter_
but this one
18:11
Bertl
actually it is more to let others know what they are working on
18:11
kaiserlich
yeah, it's an update meeting
18:11
simonrepp
guys, this irc meeting exists because me and sebastian (and before philippej who documented the idea) made it happen, so obviously things can be put into place if someone just does it, it's as hard and as easy as that.
18:11
dasChristoph[m]
we like the project and i wanted to work in the ergonimics group till i got frustrated by unclear decision structures..
18:11
Bertl
dasChristoph[m]: like?
18:11
simonrepp
of course the project is obscure, every large open* something project is, that's the beauty and the problem with it
18:12
dasChristoph[m]
as an answer why we are here
18:12
Bertl
unclear decision structures like what for example?
18:12
derWalter_
like who decided to buy the CNC with the crowdfunding money?
18:12
morrigan
yes, I don't quite get that one either
18:13
morrigan
the structure question, that is
18:13
Bertl
the folks who did the crowd funding decided it, isn't it obvious?
18:13
kaiserlich
simonrepp well put. i'm experiencing this again with a python project i was made a co-maintainer of ^^ it's slowly becoming more structured now, but it's still VERY messy in places
18:14
derWalter_
in the end the person who takes the most place, decides the most...
18:14
dasChristoph[m]
i worked in the ergonomics group and when we found a solution sebastian said ok, we will see if we can do that.. but where is the decision coming from?
18:14
morrigan
Well. I now read the piratepad notes and am still not clear what your goal is.
18:14
derWalter_
not a problem per se, but this was a frontier project on the camera market, got most of the momentum there is for such a project, all the attention, much much money .... and what...
18:15
dasChristoph[m]
who is above for example the ergonomics group? who decides what that group can do and how much effort and money is going into it?
18:15
derWalter_
oh it is written there:
18:15
derWalter_
The goal of the Apertus Documentary is to document the becoming of a revolutionary idea, "to break the market of the proprietary(totally closed and therefore consumer hostile) cinemafilm- & movie camera market, with open sourcing everything, fair pay, ecological design concepts, quality and community first, instead of quantity, market share and maximizing profit no matter the cost" looking for, researching and focusing on, the
18:15
kaiserlich
i think the people who invest the most time into the project just... naturally end up having the most say
18:15
morrigan
It reads like a cross between investigative journalism and study
18:15
derWalter_
happening and needed inside the mind of the people of the target group and the poeple working on realizing the project with this great ideas and ideals.
18:15
morrigan
yes, I read that
18:15
derWalter_
morrigan exactly
18:16
Bertl
dasChristoph[m]: you decide how much time and money you want to spend on it
18:16
morrigan
"
18:16
morrigan
"By choosing the Apertus project as target object for this Documentary, we are drawing a lot of positive attention to its potential!
18:16
morrigan
"
18:16
morrigan
and you do this by creating questionnaires with oddly phrased questions?
18:17
dasChristoph[m]
i can not decide because it is a team - work and my decision are not of interest if someone else is deciding the other way.. its is not very effective
18:17
davidak
dasChristoph[m]: regarding your questions: is it now answered clear enough on the apertus website?
18:17
derWalter_
bertl, the problem is, if you say, i am gong for this and that, give me your money to reach that goal and then in the middle of the way you decide you go for an other goal without asking the person giving you the money.... it kills trust and momentum
18:17
morrigan
Has this happened?
18:17
derWalter_
for me it has
18:17
morrigan
When and where?
18:17
davidak
dasChristoph[m]: https://www.apertus.org/join-the-team
18:18
derWalter_
there where decisions made which lead to delay
18:18
morrigan
No, a concrete answer please, since that is a rather heavy insinuation.
18:18
derWalter_
like not using money for paying people, like not using money for production
18:18
morrigan
At what point has the goal changed, in your opinion?
18:18
derWalter_
and if we look at the EU project, where nearly a million ⬠got roasted...
18:19
Bertl
sorry to interrupt, news flash: production was never part of the crowd funding
18:19
derWalter_
the slow down is a change of the goal
18:19
dasChristoph[m]
then: what is the structure/ roles and persons of the 'core' team? wher is this written?
18:19
simonrepp
i'm off now, if this discussion would have been announced i might have reserved time, but now i haven't, feel free to get in touch personally, you have my mail :)
18:19
derWalter_
changing the delivery date
18:19
derWalter_
stuff like this
18:19
kaiserlich
i think this is to be expected with any crowdfunding campaign
18:19
Bertl
newsflash: we had no delivery date
18:19
morrigan
No, a delay != change of goal, make up your mind. let's sync definitions first, or this discussion will go nowhere
18:19
derWalter_
yes, but is it the only way it can be?
18:20
derWalter_
can we think out of the box?
18:20
derWalter_
yes, we can!
18:20
derWalter_
we found other solutions
18:20
Bertl
despite that, we also delivered within our projected timeframe
18:20
simonrepp
left the channel
18:21
derWalter_
okay, than everything is nice
18:21
Bertl
I would say so, but maybe I'm wrong :)
18:21
morrigan
I fail to see the problem either
18:22
derWalter_
we are not talking about the founding and board members of the company, the people who are in charge, the apertus association and how the are linked, how you can become a member and decide.
18:22
morrigan
what are we talking about then?
18:22
derWalter_
we do not want to talk about daily business, but about the structure behind
18:23
derWalter_
who got the money
18:23
derWalter_
who decided what to do with it
18:23
derWalter_
where did the money go?
18:23
dasChristoph[m]
from the outside it is wired. maybe it is a strength of the project but i believe it will kill the project at some point that is why i want to see more clear and outspoken roles- domains an rules.. but mayby i am wrong ;)
18:23
derWalter_
why did it go there?
18:23
morrigan
so what you want is to perform an finance review?
18:23
derWalter_
the main problem: who is aperts?
18:23
derWalter_
who are the legally in charge people
18:23
Bertl
no idea
18:24
derWalter_
what is the goal of apertus
18:24
derWalter_
yeah, what is it?
18:24
derWalter_
is it a hobby project?
18:24
derWalter_
is it an entrepeneurship?
18:24
derWalter_
is it a businessplan?
18:24
derWalter_
is it a movement?
18:24
morrigan
I always thought the web page pretty much describes what it is, what the goals are and who the people involved with it are
18:24
Bertl
https://www.apertus.org/about
18:24
morrigan
it is an open source opne hardware project.
18:25
derWalter_
guys, thats the surface
18:25
derWalter_
the website
18:25
derWalter_
but who is legally written in the books?
18:25
derWalter_
who OWNS the apertus company?
18:25
dasChristoph[m]
and which legal structure?
18:25
derWalter_
who decides in the apertus company?
18:25
derWalter_
who OWNS the money?
18:25
derWalter_
and the last of the three points
18:25
morrigan
ah.
18:25
derWalter_
what is the role of the community?
18:25
morrigan
Now we are getting somewhere
18:26
derWalter_
are we PART of it? are we going to decide stuff?
18:26
derWalter_
HOW are is the company legaly bound to listen to the community?
18:26
derWalter_
how can i become part of the association?
18:26
derWalter_
how often is the assosiation meeting?
18:26
derWalter_
you know the answers?
18:26
derWalter_
found it online?
18:26
Bertl
obviously you decided to hijack the meeting today ... and you kind of succeeded, no? :)
18:26
derWalter_
on the website? :)
18:26
morrigan
this isn't about documenting the projcet, as in collecting information useful for people who want to build a camera on their own or whaever, this is about uncovering "secrets"
18:27
morrigan
that explains the phrasing of the questions then
18:27
morrigan
you are hardly unbiased here
18:27
derWalter_
did you just read: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest ?
18:27
derWalter_
:D
18:27
morrigan
Oh I did
18:27
Bertl
it sounds a lot like bad journalism to me, yes
18:27
morrigan
I already commented, scroll up
18:27
Rex0r
That stuff hasn't been ultimately determined yet. Structure, and how it might be possible to move away from more traditional corporate models, is presently being researched.
18:27
derWalter_
are you unbiased ?
18:27
dasChristoph[m]
it is more about how can a community with revolutionary drive be set and work
18:28
Bertl
i.e. quick, start a fire, we need something to report about
18:28
derWalter_
are you maybe protecting a system which is explointing you and your productivity?
18:28
morrigan
LOL
18:28
derWalter_
:D
18:28
morrigan
Cute
18:28
derWalter_
bertl, if we would have handled our footage like this .....
18:28
Bertl
yes, I feel totally exploited now ...
18:28
morrigan
Damn.
18:28
derWalter_
we have like 10 hours of recorded footage which left us very unhappy
18:29
derWalter_
with interview results which gave us a hard time for over a year now
18:29
derWalter_
how to handle the stuff
18:29
Bertl
no babies or kittens in there?
18:29
morrigan
how to handle WHAT?
18:29
derWalter_
and HOW the fuck turn this into something positive for the project
18:29
Bertl
yes, that is an excellent question!
18:29
morrigan
you know that no one is forcing you to turn this into anything?
18:29
morrigan
and again
18:30
morrigan
WHAT needs to be handled?
18:30
derWalter_
bertl, just because you are such a geek that you excell in everything technical you touch, doesnt make you right.
18:30
derWalter_
you might be a genius, but you are not right per se
18:30
derWalter_
morrigan, there is
18:30
morrigan
I'm listening, go ahead.
18:30
morrigan
What needs to be handled?
18:31
dasChristoph[m]
we want that something is going back to the project and not into sand..
18:31
derWalter_
I maybe will never be in touch with the project ever again, but i tried to run away from speaking about it loudly for a year now, but it always came back to me
18:31
derWalter_
and we want something GOOD happening for the project
18:31
morrigan
it came back to you because it still exists? Or what is the point here?
18:31
morrigan
I think it's doing well, personally
18:31
Bertl
haunted
18:31
derWalter_
kinda
18:32
kaiserlich
i get the frustration of really wanting to see a project succeed and not seeing it because it is not succeeding in ways one thinks it should... if that makes sense. and i think there are really only 2 options: accept it and move on or get involved (properly)
18:32
morrigan
you haven't answered my question
18:32
morrigan
what shocked you so badly?
18:32
derWalter_
it is doing well on the surface!
18:32
derWalter_
but its power structure is rotting on the inside
18:32
derWalter_
from the inside
18:32
morrigan
...
18:32
morrigan
wow
18:32
morrigan
so
18:32
morrigan
let me get this straight
18:32
derWalter_
well, we are getting involved now
18:32
derWalter_
but dont tell me whats properly
18:33
morrigan
you claim you have no idea about who the people behind apertus are, and who is in charge, but can tell with certaintly that things are rotting?
18:33
kaiserlich
well, getting involved in an open source project means taking on work
18:33
morrigan
do you have an idea how that sounds?
18:33
kaiserlich
i.e. investing time
18:33
derWalter_
morrigan, you know the board members?
18:33
kaiserlich
energy
18:33
derWalter_
and you know who they are?
18:33
Bertl
https://www.apertus.org/association
18:34
morrigan
I know who the team is, and have met some of them personally, and chatted on IRC with others
18:34
Bertl
(everybody knows, no?)
18:34
morrigan
so.
18:34
derWalter_
http://zvr.bmi.gv.at/Start
18:34
derWalter_
go there and put in apertus
18:34
morrigan
back to the oriiginal wuestion
18:34
derWalter_
something strange over there?
18:35
morrigan
what is you tell me
18:35
Bertl
looks fine to me, same people there
18:35
morrigan
you tell me, what is strange there?
18:35
derWalter_
assiation is dead
18:35
derWalter_
association
18:36
morrigan
sigh
18:36
morrigan
I don't know what you read from this
18:36
derWalter_
it ran out 2016
18:36
derWalter_
the meeting to elect the new head was never held
18:36
derWalter_
nor announced
18:36
derWalter_
what is the legal status?
18:36
morrigan
and that is what haunts you in the 10 hours of interview material?
18:37
derWalter_
if there is a contract between the company and the association, it is not active atm
18:37
morrigan
or was there something else?
18:37
derWalter_
morrigan
18:37
derWalter_
so you want to protect the status quo?
18:37
derWalter_
its "doing pretty well" for you
18:38
kaiserlich
derWalter_ i think what you are not seeing is that things are changing and improving all the time, but only slowly because the team isn't huge and everyone does apertus/axiom stuff in their free time
18:38
morrigan
if you mean by that do I want the project to remain alive and continue developing the camera, then the answer is yes, of course
18:38
derWalter_
kaiserlich: there was a year of paid work time
18:38
kaiserlich
you mean the EU project?
18:38
Bertl
for the EU project, yes
18:39
morrigan
he confuses those two, I think
18:39
derWalter_
okay guys, for me it is over
18:39
derWalter_
i see, no interesst
18:39
morrigan
....
18:39
derWalter_
which is totally okay for me
18:39
morrigan
NO INTEREST?
18:39
kaiserlich
we're all interested in the project
18:39
morrigan
you are trying to provooke me, right?
18:39
derWalter_
in the project, yes
18:39
kaiserlich
apertus/axiom that is
18:39
morrigan
you are succeeding
18:39
derWalter_
but not in what we dug up ;)
18:40
derWalter_
morrigan, i offer you again: lets meet in person :)
18:40
derWalter_
if you want i can show you some parts of the interviews
18:40
morrigan
you come in, make vague references, do not answer one single question, but always evade, and then conclude there is no interest=?
18:40
morrigan
seriously
18:40
derWalter_
morrigan:
18:40
derWalter_
what question didnt i answer?
18:41
kaiserlich
but what is that you dug up? i'm thinking some of the stuff might already be outdated (: and the EU project is well documented (not sure if it's public, but the EU is very thorough in making sure everything goes according to plan)
18:41
derWalter_
you just pushed every answer awy
18:41
derWalter_
kaiserlich: just because it is outdated, it does not count?
18:41
morrigan
You gave me not a single answer
18:41
Bertl
yes, the EU project is all public
18:41
dasChristoph[m]
@morrigan: (as an example): have you personaly voted the board members?
18:41
derWalter_
i am not talking about public shit
18:41
derWalter_
:)
18:41
derWalter_
public is public
18:42
kaiserlich
derWalter_ i wouldn't put outdated info in a documentary except if you were trying to document progress, but for that you'd have to check in with the project often
18:42
derWalter_
but whats relly happening :)
18:42
derWalter_
yes, it is all about progress
18:42
derWalter_
nothing else
18:42
morrigan
I think your main problem is that right there
18:42
derWalter_
did you read the link i ve posted?
18:42
Bertl
which one?
18:42
kaiserlich
which link?
18:42
kaiserlich
i think we've all read the pad by now
18:42
derWalter_
bertl being serious :P
18:42
morrigan
you refuse to accept that there is nothing sinister going on, and no deep dark secrets to be uncovered.
18:42
morrigan
I asked what made you upset about the interviews
18:43
derWalter_
you refuse to accept that there is a lot sinister going on, and no deep dark secrets to be uncovered.
18:43
morrigan
lol
18:43
dasChristoph[m]
there is nothing 'dark'
18:43
derWalter_
;)
18:43
dasChristoph[m]
ha
18:43
derWalter_
whats the your point? WALTER!!! YOU !! SHALL NOT !!! PAAASSSS!!!
18:43
morrigan
I read the pad.
18:43
Bertl
I have to check my basement now ... maybe something sinister there?
18:43
dasChristoph[m]
it's the lack of clearness
18:43
derWalter_
coffing @bertl?
18:44
Rex0r
derWalter - Anyone who's willing to dedicate time to the project deciding "never to be in touch with the project again" would be unfortunate. It seems that the idea of 'company' structure, which isn't a word any of us like to use, is provocative... In terms of functioning 'business' it's early days, so it would behove anyone with suspicions in this regard to exercise some patience because how apertus conducts business in th
18:44
derWalter_
it is part of our documentary... we confront the team with our findings
18:44
derWalter_
how is it reacting
18:44
Rex0r
... business in the marketplace hasn't been finalised yet.
18:45
Bertl
derWalter_: excellent, make a full featured film of it and send us an invitation to the screening ...
18:45
derWalter_
well, there was a plan, alsways, that was the reason why the money was transfered to the company
18:45
derWalter_
and there is no problem with it
18:46
derWalter_
there must be people doing the daily business
18:46
morrigan
then what is?
18:46
derWalter_
the pr
18:46
derWalter_
the RM
18:46
kaiserlich
but are you suggesting that the money of the crowdfunders is used in ways it shouldn't be used? like... as if there will not be cameras in the end for everyone? (cameras are already being produced, but dev versions for now)
18:46
derWalter_
CRM
18:46
derWalter_
and so forth
18:46
derWalter_
but the community should be in charg of a community project, shouldnt it? regardless if the project is paying wages or not?!?
18:46
morrigan
that's what he is not only suggesting bt has more or less said. Which is pretty sad, i'd reckon
18:46
Bertl
let me add here, that the crowd funding was _for_the_development_ of the Beta
18:46
morrigan
^
18:47
morrigan
and it was developed.
18:47
Bertl
which already happened and very successfully I might add
18:47
derWalter_
if the goal is to produce a camera, thats fine... if the goal is to compete in the market and shake it, revolutionize it, then no! @kay
18:47
morrigan
unless people are lying to me and those odd things lying around are fakes.
18:47
RexOrCine[m]
The PR is a team effort really.
18:47
derWalter_
deliverydate was also part of the crowdfunding @bertl
18:47
Bertl
we didn't crowd fund any shaking, did we?
18:48
kaiserlich
derWalter_ but for now, the crowdfunding campaign has to be finished. that is the first goal. anything else can come later
18:48
derWalter_
well, the team effort would be better placed in looking some one else to do it! have you seen the last teamtalk?
18:48
Bertl
kaiserlich: the crowd funding is long finished
18:48
derWalter_
kaiserlich: well, thats your goal, but are the decisions which are getting carried out, pointing that direction?
18:48
kaiserlich
Bertl true, i meant more everyone getting their cameras
18:49
Bertl
well, that's something which can take centuries
18:49
derWalter_
Bertl NO! apertus had it at his hands
18:49
kaiserlich
i think that is what frustrates the two.
18:50
Bertl
if some guy or gal decides to cach in their voucher in 2050, so be it (given the project still exists, despite all the sinister forces :)
18:50
morrigan
I'd rather think they want the PR job...
18:50
derWalter_
well, no one payed for a voucher to get it 2050
18:50
derWalter_
i mean thats exactly the problem
18:50
Bertl
you sure?
18:50
derWalter_
that answer
18:50
morrigan
so...
18:50
derWalter_
what was the estimated delivery? 2050? you wouldnt cash a single dime with that
18:50
Bertl
I'm pretty sure a lot of folks payed for the development regardless of the voucher
18:51
morrigan
did you want a camera and didn't get one yet? Or someone you know?
18:51
kaiserlich
i think they want the project to flourish but they don't know the day-to-day (though they would like to? i'm guessing)
18:51
Bertl
once again, the _delivery_ was for the design
18:51
kaiserlich
though i don't get the level of emotional investment
18:51
morrigan
me neither
18:51
derWalter_
i would love to work my ass of for the project
18:51
Bertl
and that already happened a long time ago
18:51
derWalter_
all my free time
18:51
derWalter_
but who is making the decisions?
18:51
Bertl
what decisions
18:51
Rex0r
But many of us are already doing that Walter.
18:52
Bertl
you are free to decide what you want to work on
18:52
derWalter_
nope
18:52
morrigan
yes you are
18:52
derWalter_
well, lets say i put in 100 hours
18:52
morrigan
or is anyone keeping you from doing your documentation project?
18:52
derWalter_
i land some coup which boosts the project
18:52
derWalter_
and it miracolous becomes a mega success
18:52
Bertl
it isn't already? :)
18:53
derWalter_
and i want some share of it
18:53
morrigan
ah
18:53
derWalter_
just thinking of it
18:53
derWalter_
yes, everything is open source, but who holds the power over the structure
18:53
Bertl
then you start your company, build Betas and off you go a millionaire :)
18:53
morrigan
indeed
18:53
derWalter_
right bertl, but there is apertus, the original, with all my time put into it
18:53
derWalter_
already
18:53
Bertl
I really don't see the problem
18:54
derWalter_
bertl, you are in that position, why should you see a problem :)
18:54
morrigan
it's no different than any other FOSS project
18:54
derWalter_
and thats good?
18:54
derWalter_
thats perfectly how you want it to be?
18:54
derWalter_
that how you would design it?
18:54
derWalter_
yes/no?
18:55
morrigan
yes, in this context yes, probably.
18:55
Bertl
in an ideal world, everything would be FOSS/OH
18:55
Bertl
and there would be no need to discuss the benefits
18:55
derWalter_
probably?
18:56
derWalter_
what are your doubts?
18:56
morrigan
probably because my field of expertise is not project management and I'd have to research before giving a definite answer there.
18:57
derWalter_
my field of expertise is project management and psychology
18:58
derWalter_
if you search the lab i tiped some pages of expertise
18:58
derWalter_
there is a thread, where christoph started to ask questions
18:58
Bertl
thread id?
18:58
derWalter_
and we started to discuss, about the management structure of the project
18:58
derWalter_
how to implement the community into decision making
18:58
morrigan
what's your background?
18:58
Bertl
(or more precisely: task ID)
18:59
Bertl
as the lab is actually a task tracker
18:59
derWalter_
studing psychotherapy sciences and being a trained executive consultant
18:59
derWalter_
specialized in sociocracy
18:59
derWalter_
by www.soziokratie.at
19:00
derWalter_
coming from a management background in 4 family businesses
19:00
davidak
so now i have read up all the chat...
19:00
dasChristoph[m]
lab id T604
19:00
Bertl
tx
19:01
kaiserlich
i think you're mixing two things up, derWalter_... i think you're looking at it as if apertus were a company producing stuff steadily and there were a community of users, like e.g. lomography or the impossible project. but right now it's a tiny thing where the "community" is the people getting involved by investing their time, knowledge, energy (and then there are people who just want to buy a camera)
19:01
kaiserlich
because it's an open source project
19:01
kaiserlich
and not (yet) a prospering business
19:02
davidak
derWalter: i think everyone here is doing all what he can. i make suggestions in the past, for example that communicating the progess is very important and it has improved very much over the past years. see the team talks and twitter
19:02
derWalter_
yes kay, but there are two things regarding this: first, who makes the critical decisions? do you remember the "pace" in "the team" when the eu project was running and everything was florishing? that will happen again when the project starts to excell again
19:02
christoph_varga
left the channel
19:02
davidak
so if you want to contribute, feel free to take work and see what you can do for the project
19:03
derWalter_
the problem with communicating the progress is, if you think your progress is toxic for the project.... args what are you doing?
19:03
morrigan
...I cannot even parse that sentence
19:03
derWalter_
davidak, apertus claims to be a community project! my question is: IS IT?
19:03
kaiserlich
but derWalter_, there was a bunch of people who only worked for the EU project. for the gamma. whose work didn't really help the beta.
19:03
derWalter_
where are the leagal structures which ensures that it is and STAYS?
19:04
derWalter_
kay, the gamma is an apertus project
19:04
morrigan
the gamma was an EU project.
19:04
derWalter_
and apertus raised nearly 1 000 000⬠from the eu for their gamma project!
19:04
derWalter_
they got some partners on board, but where still managing the process
19:05
Bertl
actually the university was
19:05
morrigan
was about to say that
19:05
derWalter_
and because the whole project communication was really "closed source" no one in the public knows what happened there and why
19:05
derWalter_
offcially the university was
19:05
davidak
derWalter: apertus° is absolutely a community project.
19:05
morrigan
not officially
19:05
derWalter_
but what is the legal structure to ensure it is davidak?
19:06
kaiserlich
are you asking about maintainership?
19:06
Bertl
what are legal structures for communities?
19:06
kaiserlich
who maintains this open source project?
19:06
derWalter_
the university of applied arts vienna owned the EU money a privatly owned company ownes the crowdfunding money
19:06
derWalter_
the company is not bind to the associations ruling
19:06
davidak
derWalter: the open source license?
19:06
morrigan
yes, so what do they have to do with each other again?
19:06
morrigan
the open source license.
19:06
morrigan
it cannot be revoked
19:07
derWalter_
its not about open source, it is about, is it a community project, if yes, how is the community integrated?
19:07
kaiserlich
derWalter_ i tried to answer this above
19:07
kaiserlich
did you not see my message?
19:07
derWalter_
i am looking for it, but no.
19:07
morrigan
I'm not aware that there are any "legal" structures anywhere to somehow enforce that a project is going to remain FOSS AND will continue to maintain a specific piece of software or hardware
19:07
kaiserlich
at 21:01
19:07
derWalter_
a legal structre would be: a company of any kind, 100% owned by the association
19:07
morrigan
you are free to fork at any time and develop or distribute your own
19:08
Bertl
well, where possible, we use strong FOSS/OH licenses
19:08
Bertl
so they are somewhat viral
19:08
derWalter_
the association has a decision model which makes it possible that a basic member can invoke a process (legaly, not social!) to change the course of the company
19:09
derWalter_
it is not about open source
19:09
derWalter_
it is about the legal power structure
19:09
kaiserlich
derWalter_ i think you're coming at this as a crowdfunding member who doesn't just want a camera (like most people) but who wants to get a say in the project somehow, right?
19:09
derWalter_
is the community ruling or not
19:09
morrigan
sigh
19:09
derWalter_
well, thats what a community project means :)
19:09
morrigan
no
19:09
kaiserlich
as said above derWalter_:
19:09
kaiserlich
i think you're mixing two things up, derWalter_... i think you're looking at it as if apertus were a company producing stuff steadily and there were a community of users, like e.g. lomography or the impossible project. but right now it's a tiny thing where the "community" is the people getting involved by investing their time, knowledge, energy (and then there are people who just want to buy a camera)
19:10
derWalter_
kay, you are getting at it. but you self where quite unhappy with the "management structure" in the project. you remember when we first met in the first district?
19:10
morrigan
that is your definition of a FOSS project, coloured by your sociocracy education
19:11
derWalter_
we did not have the camera running, that time, but we had it running the other time, when sebastian was sitting next to you, while we interviewd you and you checked with every anserwer you gave us, if it was correct
19:11
derWalter_
morrigan, yes, tell me the problem
19:11
kaiserlich
yes, derWalter_, i was more of an outsider then, and as said earlier (i think) i get the frustration of not knowing all the inner workings as an outsider (:
19:11
morrigan
you are implying that he was afraid to give an answer that sebastian wouldn't approve of?
19:11
morrigan
oO
19:11
derWalter_
you where working HOW many hours per week for the project for HOW many month? and you are calling yourself an outsider?
19:12
kaiserlich
i changed that by staying involved, or maybe becoming more involved
19:12
derWalter_
yes morrigan
19:12
Bertl
kaiserlich: good that se6astian was there to keep you from telling about all that sinister stuff going on ;-)
19:12
morrigan
you know that this is quite bizarre, right?
19:12
kaiserlich
lol, Bertl
19:12
derWalter_
Bertl please stop playing it down...
19:12
Bertl
no, actually it is quite the comedy
19:12
derWalter_
if you would have seen the difference in what she has told us with out and with sebastian .... sigh...
19:13
Bertl
I'm not sure where it is going or what the purpose is
19:13
morrigan
I would check back with him too, probably, simply on the grounds that there are aspects of the project that I am not involved in, and I for myself dislike making an iidot of myself by pretending to be in the know and giving factually incorrect answers
19:13
morrigan
but that might just be me
19:14
morrigan
So
19:14
morrigan
again
19:14
morrigan
what is your goal here?
19:14
morrigan
changing the structures to suit your views because you know you are right?
19:14
Bertl
to advertise the link, I presume?
19:14
morrigan
protecting suppressed project members?
19:14
morrigan
I'm honestly at a loss now
19:14
kaiserlich
derWalter_ oh i think i said lots of things in the interview that i also said to you before that! and as said earlier: there's a bunch of stuff that's outdated now. there are other/more people involved now, doing things that only se6astian was doing for the longest time. like Rex0r does lots of communication now
19:14
davidak
i also don't see what the problem is and why you two are capturing our time we could work on the projectâ¦
19:15
derWalter_
well, right now i want to find out if i am right here, with my goal of implementing a power structure where a community decision is binding to the apertus company or not. i guess it would not change anything/a lot around here on the daily business level, but it would mean, that there would be at least one
19:15
morrigan
So it's exercising power.
19:15
derWalter_
official association meeting per year, where every member could vote... or it would mean that there would be a member area, like the lab, where members could decide important stuff
19:16
morrigan
you don't want to become involved unless you can impose structures?
19:16
morrigan
Did I get it right now?
19:16
derWalter_
kay that is nice to hear!
19:16
derWalter_
no, that is HOW i become involved
19:16
derWalter_
thats my goal
19:17
morrigan
To change the way this project is run because you know how it has to be run?
19:17
derWalter_
to implement a way, the community can invoke changes
19:17
kaiserlich
but how are you involved in the project right now?
19:17
derWalter_
legaly bound
19:17
Bertl
look, there are folks who are doing stuff for the project and there are folks who are 'just talking'
19:17
derWalter_
nope, i know nothing, i just feel, i followed that feeling and was confronted with knowledge and i am studing now :)
19:17
kaiserlich
as said above: the community are the people involved. they bring about changes
19:17
derWalter_
quit my job and start to study again, because of this
19:17
Bertl
those who do stuff, decide what they do and when they do it
19:18
kaiserlich
yeah
19:18
Bertl
there is all the power you want/need/look for
19:18
derWalter_
bertl, but thats a problem :)
19:18
morrigan
if you don't know and are studying now, then this project is going to be an experiment to test your theory?
19:18
kaiserlich
but why? that's how open source works
19:18
derWalter_
because you leave out all the other opinions
19:18
Bertl
I wouldn't want anybody to tell me what to work on or how or why\
19:18
morrigan
same
19:19
Bertl
if there was a legally binding whatever, which would tell me what I have to work on
19:19
derWalter_
like i collect money for apples and then i am going and change my goal to pears, but the people not working on the project are not going to decide and lost all their investment
19:19
Bertl
I would immediately stop working on the AXIOM and switch to a different project
19:19
morrigan
then I#d say most of the people here would say fsck it and go work somewhere else and the project would be dead.
19:19
kaiserlich
but where did the project change its goals?
19:19
morrigan
it didn't
19:19
derWalter_
not going into it again kay, please read the log
19:19
derWalter_
it dit morrigan, please read the log
19:19
morrigan
I read it, you confused delay with failure to deliver
19:20
kaiserlich
i read it too
19:20
morrigan
you didn't respond to that
19:20
Bertl
note that strictly speaking there was no delay
19:20
morrigan
I know
19:20
morrigan
but for the sake of argument, let it stand
19:20
derWalter_
well if you give a time frame and you miss it, whats that?
19:20
derWalter_
bertl said 2050 is okay
19:20
derWalter_
is that what was originally written in the crowdfunding?
19:20
morrigan
you do know sarcasm? Happens often in IT people
19:20
Bertl
where did we give a timeframe and for what exactly?
19:21
morrigan
again
19:21
derWalter_
who decided to spend 25000⬠on a CNC which was hardly used?
19:21
derWalter_
or a 3d printer
19:21
derWalter_
and then arguing that there is so little money left, so there cant be any wages paid?
19:21
morrigan
can we stay on topic?
19:21
derWalter_
and slowing down the project like this?
19:21
morrigan
WHAT was the change of goal
19:21
morrigan
no, stay with me
19:21
derWalter_
that is the answer to your question
19:22
morrigan
that is not an answer
19:22
derWalter_
that IS the change
19:22
morrigan
no
19:22
derWalter_
that did not add to developing the camera
19:22
derWalter_
it slowed it down
19:22
morrigan
that is evolution in a project
19:22
derWalter_
make it miss its timeframe
19:22
morrigan
that
19:22
morrigan
is
19:22
morrigan
not
19:22
morrigan
a
19:22
morrigan
change
19:22
morrigan
in
19:22
derWalter_
first thing you do when you get money is you go out shopping?
19:22
morrigan
goals
19:22
derWalter_
that is missing the goal on purpose
19:23
Bertl
okay, maybe let's start with getting the facts right
19:23
morrigan
nonsense, sorry
19:23
Bertl
and let's start with the crowd funding _again_
19:23
morrigan
you claim to know project managemnt and don't have the definitions straight
19:23
derWalter_
if other voices would have the power to veto this... i mean, in a community project, if we want to spend 25 000⬠shouldnt we ASK the community? present our arguments and hear other voices?
19:23
Bertl
we crowd funded the development of the axiom Beta, right? all agree there?
19:23
morrigan
yep
19:23
derWalter_
shouldnt we listen to other opionions?
19:23
davidak
Bertl: yes.
19:24
kaiserlich
derWalter_ can you let Bertl talk, please
19:24
derWalter_
shouldnt we gather as much as "wisedom&knowledge" for our decisions? aspecially in this price range?
19:24
kaiserlich
hello
19:24
Bertl
we gave a rough timeframe where we 'thought' we would be able to accomplish this development
19:24
derWalter_
but 2050?
19:24
Bertl
we also proposed a design
19:25
Bertl
the proposed design was almost finished when the crowd funding was over, and it is also publicly available (at least I think so, not sure as we never actually tested it)
19:26
Bertl
but for sure I can send you the design files, if that helps
19:26
Bertl
during the crowd funding phase, we got a huge amount of input from 'the community'
19:26
derWalter_
not interessted in technical details regarding implementing the community in decisions for spendings over a certain amount of money.
19:26
Bertl
which shaped the design for the AXIOM Beta ... i.e. made it more modular
19:27
derWalter_
well, which is a good thing IN THE LONG RUN :)
19:27
Bertl
and basically with every iteration, we also released all the designs for the then 'current' BETA
19:28
Bertl
naturally, we cannot release designs for the Beta as it will be in a few years from now
19:28
Bertl
(simply because we are not time travelers :)
19:28
Bertl
so, to reiterate:
19:28
derWalter_
why was there never a feature freeze?
19:29
derWalter_
to release the first batch in large volume=
19:29
Bertl
because the Beta was designed (and advertized) to evolve and never become obsolete, remeber?
19:29
Bertl
*remember
19:29
derWalter_
and then generate more momentum? cause the development is continuing any ways
19:29
derWalter_
questions like this would have been raised i guess :)
19:30
Bertl
they were not raised back then, sorry to disappoint
19:30
derWalter_
cause i was not asked :)
19:30
morrigan
I was about to say, I don't remember this being a problem for anyone
19:30
morrigan
I don't remember you being there even
19:31
derWalter_
where was this desicion made?
19:31
Bertl
what decision?
19:31
derWalter_
it was never published, i was never invited
19:32
derWalter_
@morrigan
19:32
derWalter_
on the team page, you can find me
19:32
derWalter_
https://www.apertus.org/user/615
19:32
morrigan
no one ever came up with the idea of a feature freze, so why would it have become a subject for discussion?
19:32
derWalter_
i was not invited, as part of the team
19:32
Bertl
derWalter_: but let me ask you a provocative question now, and maybe you can answer it:
19:32
morrigan
what do you mean, invited?
19:33
kaiserlich
he means to a meeting where this decision was made
19:33
derWalter_
morrigan, thats the thing, i would just like to make decision making "oublic" at least to members of people who officially want to contribute their opinion
19:33
morrigan
there was no decision because no one raised the question
19:33
derWalter_
that such things get into the process
19:34
Bertl
how do you intent to compensate us for the huge amount of time we are wasting right now ... which could have been better used for AXIOM development?
19:34
derWalter_
that as much knowledge and good ideas can influcence the way of apertus
19:34
morrigan
knowledge, sure
19:34
derWalter_
Bertl, you can always leave, it is a doocracy
19:34
Bertl
and how do you explain that to the community?
19:34
morrigan
right.
19:34
derWalter_
you decide about what you do, when and where
19:34
morrigan
I think I see the real problem here
19:34
derWalter_
and that is the point
19:35
derWalter_
and who is the "community"
19:35
Bertl
okay, well, in this case, I'm off to dinner ...
19:35
kaiserlich
derWalter_ people contribute all the time, and their opinions influence the direction in which the project goes. but it's not just anyone who has an opinion(tm) but people who are somehow involved in the project. as said before: who invest their time & energy. and anyone can do that
19:35
derWalter_
no, tbh, i am trying to do good here
19:35
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
19:35
derWalter_
but on what legal structure kaiserlich
19:35
morrigan
you come from a non-technical background and have not a really firm grasp on the mindset of an engineer
19:35
kaiserlich
this
19:36
morrigan
let me make it plain then
19:36
derWalter_
everyone puts in time and money but has nothing to say when the project becomes serious
19:36
kaiserlich
derWalter_ check out e.g. github.com - lots of open source projects there
19:36
derWalter_
or when LARGE amounts of money are getting spent
19:36
kaiserlich
i'm not talking about crowdfunders
19:36
derWalter_
have a nice one Bertl!
19:36
kaiserlich
i already explained that there are 2 ways to look at "community"
19:37
kaiserlich
you are coming at this from a users or would-be users perspective
19:37
morrigan
we do this in our spare time. Start with project management, deadlines, feature freezes and other buzzwords you need, and you will not get far
19:37
kaiserlich
*user's
19:37
morrigan
this is not a company
19:38
morrigan
it's not run like a company.
19:38
kaiserlich
i actually think project management is cool! :D but it doesn't work well in a structure that is not a company
19:38
kaiserlich
because people come and go
19:38
kaiserlich
have more and less amounts of time to spend on tasks
19:38
morrigan
yep
19:39
kaiserlich
i'm organising two events now and while we can set ourselves certain deadlines and certain organisers can volunteer for certain tasks, we cannot do proper project management
19:39
kaiserlich
i should add: two community events. events small teams organise in their free time
19:40
morrigan
that's not the sort of project management he means.
19:40
derWalter_
Good night everyone, thanks for sharing your time and listening to our opinions, if some one of you is interessted in pushing the boat into the direction of more direct democracy and community involvment, let us know. we would like to develop a futureproof concept, try it and improve our all life :)
19:41
kaiserlich
morrigan oh, i thought it was? clear timelines and structure on who does what etc.
19:41
morrigan
sigh
19:41
morrigan
right.
19:42
morrigan
so much for trying to actually address this
19:43
davidak
derWalter: you asked where the community can decide things. right after the crowdfunding there where multiple polls what sensors people want and such technical details. then the team started to work creating the Beta, buying equiptment they need like the CNC and components. i trust Bertl and se6astian (they do a lot of work) to make the right decisions and make suggestions where i see potential to improve.
19:43
davidak
and like you heard in the team meeting, there was also a poll about the OLPF
19:44
morrigan
I think we are a point already where you shouldn't confuse his opinion with facts, but maybe I'm jsut cranky.
19:44
davidak
so the community has always the opportunity to contribute and decide
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19:48
morrigan
Q.e.d
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21:15
se6astian
good night
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se6astian
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BAndiT1983
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22:00
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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intracube
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