#apertus IRC Channel Logs

Greets.

10mins

:)

19:00 not 18:00 CET?

nah, problem was the GSoC deadline is at 18:00 CEST

so irc meeting isn't @ 18:00 CET?

CEST = summer time

that would actually be 20:00 CEST, no?

mhhhhhh is cet not always the actual time eg summer or winter, depending on the date?

no, it isn't

European countries using CET in the winter and CEST in the summer

or 17:00 UTC

or 18:00 BST

timezones are fun

GMTs the one.

utc sounds like a cool idea.

Ultimate Time Club?

yeah, well, the acronym is quite funny

i.e. the English wanted CUT, the French, TUC, so it was abbreviated UTC, imagine that!

hmm?

T -33 mins

so everybody not in CEST might arrive an hour late to the part :)

heya!!

busy, busy

i'm currently organising 2 events so have no free time left, arghh

interesting events?

the other is a django workshop for programming beginners https://djangogirls.org/vienna/

yes! oh wait, apertus has a booth again, too, right?

well maybe you can sneak off if there's an interesting talk at pydays ^^

unfortunately, I'll only be there on thursday ...

soo .. why does the django workshop exclude folks like me?

Bertl because folks like you generally have it easier finding an "in"

ah, well, life isn't fair ... but I can always blame you for not knowing more about django 8-)

nah, I meant those people who are not women but have a preference for binary (i.e. binary persons?) :)

ah, excellent!

afternoon

indeed meeting time!

so welcome everyone, this is the first meeting where I also invited a wider community audience

(they might arrive an hour late though :)

:D

I will then give everyone a chance to speak in an orderly manner

right so I will start with brief points of what happened recently and whats about to happen:

they were shipped already but were not 100% perfect yet

I already ordered another batch that will hopefully solve the issue

we will attend maker faire sachsen in chemnitz the next weekend

in may/june

ok then I hand over to Bertl for his update

The Trenz board and carrier arrived and was tested - seems to be perfect for the job. (Artix for 4K HDMI testing and similar)

The new 3xmDP Plugin v1.3 (with the correct pinout) has arrived and a prototype was assembled which will be tested soon.

The new USB 3.0 Plugin has arrived and was assembled, testing will require a lot of work on the software side though.

The good news, we probably have a bunch of working Betas for the upcoming Faires :)

:)

*build directly

they are designed to be built by beginners

thanks, how many betas will be hardware complete soon?

we will surely take pictures at the booths at the faires

right

The new plugins*

:)

so, for everyone, who does not know about the Apertus documentary

in short: all our efforts to document the project ended up in a big confusion about the following questions: dasChristoph:

2 what is the goal of Apertus?

To finalize the documentary we need the help of all people who want the project to succeed.

1. what is the revolutionary potential of the apertus project in your eyes/for you? - Name three things in order of importance!

3. What could be done now, by you, to help the project in the long run? - name at least one thing!

we would like to do it by skype or something similar and make a very short and fast motivational clip out of it.

lets start now, by discussing all six questions now, right here, right now, everyone talking top to bottom in the irc channel, user list, one after an other, max. 1 minute, same rights/time for everyone attending this meeting.

haha ;D

any other is ok ;)

who first? let us know what you are thinking

_florent_ alexml anyone of you here and want to say something? :)

dasChristoph[m]: lets start now, by discussing all six questions now, right here, right now <-lets with those interested after we finish the team meeting

*lets talk

after sounds like a good idea, so the team meeting doesn't get dragged out (:

I would like to hear more voices, are all those people afk here?

i have an opinion on that but it is a little too spontaneous right now

let's do it later

right, thanks for reporting, we can definitely help with taking this to the mailing list

and most of them are kinda mentally occupied with trying to give concise summaries of their work and/or hosting/documeting the meeting itself .. :)

okay

on to OLPFs

(the contact is: *email address removed* )

the result are here: https://twitter.com/apertususer/status/848584997388812289

what's the difference between quite important and essential?

Bertl: it's rather subjective

there are some links to possible suppliers

i'd say essential = can't do without; quite important = can do without but would rather not

which seems fair

it might be worth getting a show of hands here, for/against

hey guys, its not cool to go to the next point, without finishing the last one

derWalter_: sorry, I thought the topic had been handed to me

sebastian just gave this one off, without giving us the time to finish out point

sry intracube, it happened so quickly, we were a little bit stunned

no problem :)

sorry, but our team meetings so far have been very quick very brief reports the last times so I assumed you were done

alexML: hold on a mo, derWalter_ still has a few bits and pieces

i would like to know which one and who decidedes what gets sent?

but what mailing list?

anyone can send to the team mailing list

hmm

well we wanted to hear some one else then sebastian and bertl to say something about it :)

how would you ask?

well this is regarding the first question: "what is the revolutionary potential of the apertus project in your eyes/for you? "

or on new ones!

Your wording implies you have already identified a problem and are actively searching for solutions.

because they threaten them self with opening up and saying what they really think

Strengths:: 1a. personal customisation 1b. lack of 'lock-in' or artificial feature limitations 1c. ability for a competing manufacturer to take the designs build the hardware (reduces the single point of failure)

Issues:: 2a. stronger formal structure and roles 2b. consider cutting down and rationalising the feature list, (at least early on to avoid getting overloaded 2c

No, by asking the question like this you generate a wrong impression, simple as that.

we are researching this topic for years now and have a lot of material on this :/

So, then, which problems have you identified?

what is the goal of Apertus?

there was a call for revolutionizing the camera market with an open source camera, a lot of momentum was generated and a lot of money as well

we get 1.5 milion euros? sounds great!

you mean from the crowd funding?

we got frustrated in contributing because of this, that is the reason we started the doc project

:)

j

yes, please discuss this later

it is FOR the project by ABOUT

can we have time at the end of the list?

it is not neutral on purpose

To generate negative answers.

i am not lying

i can validate my arguments, but this will take hours

firs

and secondly, you are implying that finding and talking about problems is negative

No, read what I said

I say that phrasing questions in this way, to imply there is a problem when there is no evidence of one, is dodgy.

morrigan we know, we met several evenings and discussed this

Fair enough, it was not my idea to do this now.

are you interessted to clear this up with us some time?

derWalter, dasChristoph[m] closing statements for this point please

thanks

we need a plattform for dicsussions like this

we lost a lot of momentum over the past years and there are obvious reasons

#derWalter ?

all that ended in a dead end

irc is fine, too many different platforms make it to ohard to consolidate information.

but either way, it's the same sensor, so the results will be the same as with the Beta

can we let intracube talk now

yes agree, please

good question ... I remember that we planned to do that

"small sample" smaller than the apsc sensor area

yeah, something like 1x1cm or so

please do

we could do some tests with it

anything else can be rolled into an after-meeting discussion

with a stand-up comedian? :)

no swear words please ... :)

morrigan, yes, no agile/scrum :P

so we need to find a way to use the camera with OLPF or with UV/IR filter only

price point seems to be sub-$200 at a rough estimate

se6astian: it seems likely that you could order an OLPF with different thickness

to avoid backfocus issues

or more precisely, several combinations

but I haven't seen one with IR as well

yep

has there been any talk about having the IR filter be removable?

but yes you are right: 3 options in the end need to be covered

we try to keep everything modular/replaceable in general

my idea would be to offer a shim for every filter - that way we are rather flexible with thicknesses, FFD

se6astian: briefly; any idea how the filter would be fixed in place?

might not be a good idea using a screwdriver that near to the sensor...

intracube: likely by a aluminum CNC milled "holder" which is screwed to the part holding the sensor

Bertl: right I also see it more as a one time assembly thing

yes

I think that's it from me

thanks!

the meeting minutes are going up on the wiki now

when will we hold the next meeting

8th of may would be an option

derWalter_: you can use up all our time and the channel in five minutes

but there is no other meeting

but most people are still here?

se6astian: sounds good to me too

great, noted

se6astian: wasn't the last one 2 weeks ago?

thx

there was just one point we failed to nail down: is any one interessted in our work? :D

8th sounds good

i think they want anyone's input

but you and sebastian are the dominant people in the project and we wanted to hear other voices

or open the room, before you already gave the official statement on the topic

i like the idea of mailing your questions over the team mailing list

personally, i'd like to take more time to answer these questions, not a fan of questions getting sprung on me like that (:

sry, but thats the only live meeting there is :/

we knew we are going to break the format a little bit

i understand that this is overwhelming

http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest

davidak, thats exactly the thing :) :) :)

involved in or interested in

could you paste it again? *G*

"the whole structure is so obscure" ?

just read the first lines

i hope that cleares up a little bitt :)

is this the only 'public' and 'live' meeting for general purpose discussions?

bertl, havent you read our discussion @lab?

but not a meeting

but this one

yeah, it's an update meeting

we like the project and i wanted to work in the ergonimics group till i got frustrated by unclear decision structures..

of course the project is obscure, every large open* something project is, that's the beauty and the problem with it

unclear decision structures like what for example?

yes, I don't quite get that one either

the folks who did the crowd funding decided it, isn't it obvious?

in the end the person who takes the most place, decides the most...

Well. I now read the piratepad notes and am still not clear what your goal is.

who is above for example the ergonomics group? who decides what that group can do and how much effort and money is going into it?

The goal of the Apertus Documentary is to document the becoming of a revolutionary idea, "to break the market of the proprietary(totally closed and therefore consumer hostile) cinemafilm- & movie camera market, with open sourcing everything, fair pay, ecological design concepts, quality and community first, instead of quantity, market share and maximizing profit no matter the cost" looking for, researching and focusing on, the

It reads like a cross between investigative journalism and study

yes, I read that

dasChristoph[m]: you decide how much time and money you want to spend on it

"By choosing the Apertus project as target object for this Documentary, we are drawing a lot of positive attention to its potential!

and you do this by creating questionnaires with oddly phrased questions?

dasChristoph[m]: regarding your questions: is it now answered clear enough on the apertus website?

Has this happened?

When and where?

there where decisions made which lead to delay

like not using money for paying people, like not using money for production

and if we look at the EU project, where nearly a million € got roasted...

the slow down is a change of the goal

i'm off now, if this discussion would have been announced i might have reserved time, but now i haven't, feel free to get in touch personally, you have my mail :)

stuff like this

newsflash: we had no delivery date

yes, but is it the only way it can be?

yes, we can!

despite that, we also delivered within our projected timeframe

okay, than everything is nice

I fail to see the problem either

what are we talking about then?

who got the money

where did the money go?

why did it go there?

the main problem: who is aperts?

no idea

yeah, what is it?

is it an entrepeneurship?

is it a movement?

https://www.apertus.org/about

guys, thats the surface

but who is legally written in the books?

and which legal structure?

who OWNS the money?

ah.

Now we are getting somewhere

HOW are is the company legaly bound to listen to the community?

how often is the assosiation meeting?

found it online?

on the website? :)

that explains the phrasing of the questions then

did you just read: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest ?

Oh I did

I already commented, scroll up

are you unbiased ?

i.e. quick, start a fire, we need something to report about

LOL

Cute

yes, I feel totally exploited now ...

we have like 10 hours of recorded footage which left us very unhappy

how to handle the stuff

how to handle WHAT?

yes, that is an excellent question!

and again

bertl, just because you are such a geek that you excell in everything technical you touch, doesnt make you right.

morrigan, there is

What needs to be handled?

I maybe will never be in touch with the project ever again, but i tried to run away from speaking about it loudly for a year now, but it always came back to me

it came back to you because it still exists? Or what is the point here?

haunted

i get the frustration of really wanting to see a project succeed and not seeing it because it is not succeeding in ways one thinks it should... if that makes sense. and i think there are really only 2 options: accept it and move on or get involved (properly)

what shocked you so badly?

but its power structure is rotting on the inside

...

so

well, we are getting involved now

you claim you have no idea about who the people behind apertus are, and who is in charge, but can tell with certaintly that things are rotting?

do you have an idea how that sounds?

morrigan, you know the board members?

and you know who they are?

I know who the team is, and have met some of them personally, and chatted on IRC with others

so.

go there and put in apertus

something strange over there?

looks fine to me, same people there

assiation is dead

sigh

it ran out 2016

nor announced

and that is what haunts you in the 10 hours of interview material?

or was there something else?

so you want to protect the status quo?

derWalter_ i think what you are not seeing is that things are changing and improving all the time, but only slowly because the team isn't huge and everyone does apertus/axiom stuff in their free time

kaiserlich: there was a year of paid work time

for the EU project, yes

okay guys, for me it is over

....

NO INTEREST?

you are trying to provooke me, right?

apertus/axiom that is

but not in what we dug up ;)

if you want i can show you some parts of the interviews

seriously

what question didnt i answer?

you just pushed every answer awy

You gave me not a single answer

@morrigan: (as an example): have you personaly voted the board members?

:)

derWalter_ i wouldn't put outdated info in a documentary except if you were trying to document progress, but for that you'd have to check in with the project often

yes, it is all about progress

I think your main problem is that right there

which one?

i think we've all read the pad by now

you refuse to accept that there is nothing sinister going on, and no deep dark secrets to be uncovered.

you refuse to accept that there is a lot sinister going on, and no deep dark secrets to be uncovered.

there is nothing 'dark'

ha

I read the pad.

it's the lack of clearness

derWalter - Anyone who's willing to dedicate time to the project deciding "never to be in touch with the project again" would be unfortunate. It seems that the idea of 'company' structure, which isn't a word any of us like to use, is provocative... In terms of functioning 'business' it's early days, so it would behove anyone with suspicions in this regard to exercise some patience because how apertus conducts business in th

how is it reacting

derWalter_: excellent, make a full featured film of it and send us an invitation to the screening ...

and there is no problem with it

then what is?

the RM

CRM

but the community should be in charg of a community project, shouldnt it? regardless if the project is paying wages or not?!?

let me add here, that the crowd funding was _for_the_development_ of the Beta

and it was developed.

if the goal is to produce a camera, thats fine... if the goal is to compete in the market and shake it, revolutionize it, then no! @kay

The PR is a team effort really.

we didn't crowd fund any shaking, did we?

well, the team effort would be better placed in looking some one else to do it! have you seen the last teamtalk?

kaiserlich: well, thats your goal, but are the decisions which are getting carried out, pointing that direction?

well, that's something which can take centuries

i think that is what frustrates the two.

I'd rather think they want the PR job...

i mean thats exactly the problem

that answer

what was the estimated delivery? 2050? you wouldnt cash a single dime with that

did you want a camera and didn't get one yet? Or someone you know?

once again, the _delivery_ was for the design

me neither

and that already happened a long time ago

but who is making the decisions?

But many of us are already doing that Walter.

nope

well, lets say i put in 100 hours

i land some coup which boosts the project

it isn't already? :)

ah

yes, everything is open source, but who holds the power over the structure

indeed

already

bertl, you are in that position, why should you see a problem :)

and thats good?

that how you would design it?

yes, in this context yes, probably.

and there would be no need to discuss the benefits

what are your doubts?

my field of expertise is project management and psychology

there is a thread, where christoph started to ask questions

and we started to discuss, about the management structure of the project

what's your background?

as the lab is actually a task tracker

specialized in sociocracy

coming from a management background in 4 family businesses

lab id T604

i think you're mixing two things up, derWalter_... i think you're looking at it as if apertus were a company producing stuff steadily and there were a community of users, like e.g. lomography or the impossible project. but right now it's a tiny thing where the "community" is the people getting involved by investing their time, knowledge, energy (and then there are people who just want to buy a camera)

and not (yet) a prospering business

yes kay, but there are two things regarding this: first, who makes the critical decisions? do you remember the "pace" in "the team" when the eu project was running and everything was florishing? that will happen again when the project starts to excell again

so if you want to contribute, feel free to take work and see what you can do for the project

...I cannot even parse that sentence

but derWalter_, there was a bunch of people who only worked for the EU project. for the gamma. whose work didn't really help the beta.

kay, the gamma is an apertus project

and apertus raised nearly 1 000 000€ from the eu for their gamma project!

actually the university was

and because the whole project communication was really "closed source" no one in the public knows what happened there and why