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07:03 | Rex0r | Greets.
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07:04 | Rex0r | Meets today.
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10:19 | Bertl | morning folks!
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16:29 | se6astian | good evening
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16:51 | intracube | irc meeting in 70 mins?
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16:51 | Bertl | 10mins
| 16:52 | intracube | taps watch
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16:52 | intracube | :)
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16:52 | Bertl | ah, my wrong, 70 minutes
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16:52 | derWalter__ | 19:00 not 18:00 CET?
| 16:52 | intracube | wasn't sure about winter/summer clocks
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16:53 | Bertl | nah, problem was the GSoC deadline is at 18:00 CEST
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16:53 | Bertl | and I mixed that up
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16:53 | intracube | so irc meeting isn't @ 18:00 CET?
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16:54 | intracube | oh, nvm
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16:54 | intracube | CEST = summer time
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16:54 | derWalter__ | IRC MEETING @ 19:00 CET
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16:54 | intracube | derWalter__: no need to shout
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16:55 | Bertl | that would actually be 20:00 CEST, no?
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16:55 | Bertl | but I think sebastian simply got that wrong :)
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16:55 | derWalter__ | mhhhhhh is cet not always the actual time eg summer or winter, depending on the date?
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16:55 | derWalter__ | but CEST is more accurate for sure :)
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16:55 | Bertl | no, it isn't
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16:56 | derWalter__ | so cet = winter and cest = summertime?
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16:57 | derWalter__ | European countries using CET in the winter and CEST in the summer
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16:57 | intracube | it's 17:57 CEST, so meeting is @ 19:00 CEST
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16:57 | intracube | or 17:00 UTC
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16:57 | derWalter__ | https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/cet
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16:57 | intracube | or 18:00 BST
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16:58 | Bertl | se6astian: can you confirm 19:00 CEST?
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16:58 | intracube | timezones are fun
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16:58 | Bertl | that's why I always suggest to use UTC :)
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16:59 | RexOrCine[m] | GMTs the one.
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16:59 | RexOrCine[m] | It's more central to the world.
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16:59 | derWalter__ | utc sounds like a cool idea.
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17:00 | Bertl | RexOrCine[m]: UTC is not a time zone
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17:01 | RexOrCine[m] | Ultimate Time Club?
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17:02 | RexOrCine[m] | Universal Time Continuum?
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17:02 | Bertl | yeah, well, the acronym is quite funny
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17:02 | Bertl | it stands for Coordinated Universal Time and Temps Universel Coordonne, and they basically met in the middle :)
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17:04 | Bertl | i.e. the English wanted CUT, the French, TUC, so it was abbreviated UTC, imagine that!
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17:06 | Bertl | and yes (to answer the question regarding CE(S)T) they are different time zones which do not change over the course of the year, we just switch from one to the other
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17:07 | BAndiT1983 | changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
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17:14 | RexOrCine[m] | So it's meeting in 15 minutes UTC then.
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17:15 | Bertl | hmm?
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17:26 | intracube | T -33 mins
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17:30 | se6astian | 19:00 CEST yes, in 30 minutes
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17:31 | Bertl | so everybody not in CEST might arrive an hour late to the part :)
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17:34 | Bertl | hey kaiserlich! LTNS!
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17:34 | kaiserlich | heya!!
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17:34 | kaiserlich | yes, true
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17:34 | kaiserlich | busy, busy
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17:34 | Bertl | glad to see that you are still 'with us' in some way :)
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17:35 | kaiserlich | i'm currently organising 2 events so have no free time left, arghh
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17:35 | kaiserlich | also, working too much
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17:36 | Bertl | interesting events?
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17:36 | kaiserlich | one of them might be! (: http://pydays.at/
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17:37 | kaiserlich | the other is a django workshop for programming beginners https://djangogirls.org/vienna/
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17:38 | Bertl | are the pydays part of the linuxwochen or is there some relation?
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17:38 | kaiserlich | yes! oh wait, apertus has a booth again, too, right?
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17:38 | Bertl | yup
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17:38 | kaiserlich | well maybe you can sneak off if there's an interesting talk at pydays ^^
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17:38 | kaiserlich | it's FRI + SAT
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17:39 | Bertl | unfortunately, I'll only be there on thursday ...
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17:39 | Bertl | will be leaving to Make Munich on Friday
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17:40 | Bertl | soo .. why does the django workshop exclude folks like me?
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17:40 | derWalter_ | are you into django as well @bertl ?
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17:41 | BAndiT1983|away | changed nick to: BAndiT1983
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17:41 | Bertl | @derWalter "Tote reden nicht..." :)
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17:44 | kaiserlich | Bertl because folks like you generally have it easier finding an "in"
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17:45 | Bertl | ah, well, life isn't fair ... but I can always blame you for not knowing more about django 8-)
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17:46 | kaiserlich | if by folks like me you meant people who already know programming (; we ask those to coach!
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17:47 | Bertl | nah, I meant those people who are not women but have a preference for binary (i.e. binary persons?) :)
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17:50 | kaiserlich | see above! + i can give you a link to the official tutorial so you won't have to blame me (; it's all online
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17:50 | Bertl | ah, excellent!
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17:59 | davidak | good evening
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17:59 | intracube | afternoon
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18:00 | intracube | meeting time!
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18:01 | se6astian | indeed meeting time!
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18:01 | derWalter_ | joined the channel | |
18:01 | se6astian | so welcome everyone, this is the first meeting where I also invited a wider community audience
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18:01 | se6astian | with the axiom-community mailing list
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18:01 | Bertl | (they might arrive an hour late though :)
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18:02 | morrigan1 | changed nick to: morrigan
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18:02 | davidak | :D
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18:02 | se6astian | for those new: please pm me now if you have a topic to discuss or a development to report/present
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18:02 | se6astian | I will then give everyone a chance to speak in an orderly manner
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18:03 | se6astian | the meeting minutes will be summarized on the wiki and sent to the mailing lists soon after the meeting today
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18:04 | se6astian | right so I will start with brief points of what happened recently and whats about to happen:
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18:04 | se6astian | we ordered new flyers for the coming faires we will attend
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18:04 | se6astian | they were shipped already but were not 100% perfect yet
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18:04 | se6astian | details: https://lab.apertus.org/M11
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18:05 | se6astian | I already ordered another batch that will hopefully solve the issue
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18:05 | se6astian | new business cards are also being printed
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18:05 | se6astian | we will attend maker faire sachsen in chemnitz the next weekend
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18:06 | se6astian | further faires will follow soon then afterwards: vienna, munich, berlin
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18:06 | se6astian | in may/june
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18:06 | se6astian | actually two events in vienna: maker faire vienna and linuxwochen wien
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18:07 | se6astian | ok then I hand over to Bertl for his update
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18:07 | Bertl | thanks, on the hardware side, here some updates:
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18:07 | Bertl | The Trenz board and carrier arrived and was tested - seems to be perfect for the job. (Artix for 4K HDMI testing and similar)
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18:08 | Bertl | New version v0.30 Power Board has arrived, is now waiting to get assembled.
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18:08 | Bertl | The new 3xmDP Plugin v1.3 (with the correct pinout) has arrived and a prototype was assembled which will be tested soon.
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18:08 | Bertl | The new HDMI Shield v0.2 has arrived and a prototype was assembled (will be tested soon I hope).
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18:09 | Bertl | The new USB 3.0 Plugin has arrived and was assembled, testing will require a lot of work on the software side though.
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18:09 | Bertl | Once again, I spent most of the remaining time with reworking and testing AXIOM Beta boards.
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18:10 | Bertl | The good news, we probably have a bunch of working Betas for the upcoming Faires :)
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18:10 | Bertl | Speaking of: because we always get people asking how it is possible to work with SMD at home, we decided to make a FOSS/OH SMD workshop on the upcoming Faires starting with Munich.
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18:10 | morrigan | :)
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18:10 | Bertl | For this purpose, we prepared a few simple designs which interested folks can builddirectly at the stand (with our help and of course parts will be provided at cost).
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18:11 | Bertl | *build directly
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18:11 | Bertl | The devices are basically OH pendants with a bunch of LEDs, a micro controller and a battery, and can be programmed with FOSS tools.
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18:11 | Bertl | they are designed to be built by beginners
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18:12 | Bertl | that's all from my side
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18:12 | se6astian | thanks, how many betas will be hardware complete soon?
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18:12 | Rex0r | Are pictures of the building of these boards being taken?
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18:13 | se6astian | we will surely take pictures at the booths at the faires
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18:13 | Bertl | between two and six units, depending on the (to be assembled) SFEs
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18:13 | se6astian | right
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18:13 | se6astian | derWalter you turn
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18:13 | Rex0r | The new plugins*
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18:13 | se6astian | *your
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18:13 | derWalter_ | :)
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18:13 | se6astian | Rex0r: probably not
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18:14 | derWalter_ | so, for everyone, who does not know about the Apertus documentary
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18:14 | derWalter_ | we prepared a link with the history and the goal of it: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest
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18:14 | derWalter_ | in short: all our efforts to document the project ended up in a big confusion about the following questions: dasChristoph:
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18:14 | derWalter_ | 1 who and what is Apertus? (who is making the decisions and how are they formed)
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18:15 | derWalter_ | 2 what is the goal of Apertus?
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18:15 | derWalter_ | 3 what is the role of the community?
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18:15 | derWalter_ | To finalize the documentary we need the help of all people who want the project to succeed.
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18:15 | derWalter_ | we need you to answer three questions:
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18:15 | derWalter_ | 1. what is the revolutionary potential of the apertus project in your eyes/for you? - Name three things in order of importance!
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18:16 | derWalter_ | 2. what is needed to be changed in the project (structure, roles, communication, style, whatever comes to your mind...) to fully unleash this potential? - Name three things in order of importance!
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18:16 | derWalter_ | 3. What could be done now, by you, to help the project in the long run? - name at least one thing!
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18:16 | dasChristoph[m] | We would like to record this "on camera", but to shorten things up,
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18:16 | dasChristoph[m] | we would like to do it by skype or something similar and make a very short and fast motivational clip out of it.
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18:17 | dasChristoph[m] | Get in touch with us, if you want to helpt the project and by quickly telling us your point of view of it and answering this short three questions!
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18:17 | dasChristoph[m] | lets start now, by discussing all six questions now, right here, right now, everyone talking top to bottom in the irc channel, user list, one after an other, max. 1 minute, same rights/time for everyone attending this meeting.
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18:17 | Bertl | Why use a proprietary tool like skype?
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18:17 | kaiserlich | haha ;D
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18:17 | derWalter_ | (jeetsi is also possible)
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18:17 | dasChristoph[m] | any other is ok ;)
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18:17 | derWalter_ | riot.im prefered
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18:18 | dasChristoph[m] | who first? let us know what you are thinking
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18:18 | se6astian | dasChristoph[m]: Get in touch with us <- what are your contact details?
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18:19 | derWalter_ | _florent_ alexml anyone of you here and want to say something? :)
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18:19 | simonrepp | i would suggest we send this call for help out over the mailing list(s)?
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18:19 | se6astian | dasChristoph[m]: lets start now, by discussing all six questions now, right here, right now <-lets with those interested after we finish the team meeting
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18:19 | Bertl | well, if they wanted to, they probably would, no? :)
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18:19 | se6astian | *lets talk
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18:20 | dasChristoph[m] | would be great to start here
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18:20 | kaiserlich | after sounds like a good idea, so the team meeting doesn't get dragged out (:
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18:20 | Bertl | agreed
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18:21 | derWalter_ | I would like to hear more voices, are all those people afk here?
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18:21 | derWalter_ | afk=away from keyboard
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18:21 | davidak | i have an opinion on that but it is a little too spontaneous right now
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18:22 | derWalter_ | davidak, speak up :)
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18:22 | davidak | let's do it later
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18:22 | simonrepp | i am also in favor of a) discussion after the meeting, b) call for help over the mailing list, only a fraction of potential users who could help out are present herre
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18:23 | se6astian | right, thanks for reporting, we can definitely help with taking this to the mailing list
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18:23 | se6astian | intracube: your turn
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18:23 | simonrepp | and most of them are kinda mentally occupied with trying to give concise summaries of their work and/or hosting/documeting the meeting itself .. :)
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18:23 | intracube | hi
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18:23 | derWalter_ | okay
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18:23 | intracube | I have a few thoughts on the last topic, will post them near the end
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18:23 | intracube | on to OLPFs
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18:23 | derWalter_ | we are setting up an emailadress right now
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18:23 | dasChristoph[m] | (the contact is: *email address removed* )
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18:24 | intracube | a couple of weeks back, we ran a twitter poll to get people's views on optical low-pass filters
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18:24 | intracube | the result are here: https://twitter.com/apertususer/status/848584997388812289
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18:24 | intracube | as you can see, it's fairly split down the middle
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18:24 | Bertl | what's the difference between quite important and essential?
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18:24 | intracube | but even so, hopefully it can guide how much effort is expended on this
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18:25 | intracube | Bertl: it's rather subjective
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18:25 | intracube | an OLPF section has been added to the wiki
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18:25 | intracube | there are some links to possible suppliers
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18:25 | Bertl | so the poll was a little in favor of an OLPF, yes?
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18:25 | kaiserlich | i'd say essential = can't do without; quite important = can do without but would rather not
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18:26 | intracube | yep, if you combine quite important + essential
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18:26 | intracube | which seems fair
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18:26 | intracube | https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Beta/AXIOM_Beta_Hardware#Optical_Low-pass_Filter_.28OLPF.29
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18:26 | intracube | it might be worth getting a show of hands here, for/against
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18:27 | intracube | for anyone who didn't take part in the poll
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18:27 | derWalter_ | hey guys, its not cool to go to the next point, without finishing the last one
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18:27 | Bertl | so for me the question here would really be, would you pay, let's say 400 bucks (10%?) for an OLPF on the Beta?
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18:27 | intracube | derWalter_: sorry, I thought the topic had been handed to me
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18:27 | alexML | re OLPF: are there any sample image that show aliasing?
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18:27 | derWalter_ | sebastian just gave this one off, without giving us the time to finish out point
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18:27 | intracube | derWalter_: sorry, feel free to finish
| 18:27 | intracube | will hold :)
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18:28 | intracube | alexML: check the wiki link
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18:28 | derWalter_ | sry intracube, it happened so quickly, we were a little bit stunned
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18:28 | derWalter_ | sry to interfere now..
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18:28 | intracube | no problem :)
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18:28 | alexML | intracube: was the image taken with the Beta?
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18:28 | se6astian | sorry, but our team meetings so far have been very quick very brief reports the last times so I assumed you were done
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18:28 | alexML | if yes, I'd like to see the DNG
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18:29 | intracube | alexML: hold on a mo, derWalter_ still has a few bits and pieces
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18:29 | derWalter_ | simon said he wanted to send this over the email list
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18:29 | derWalter_ | i would like to know which one and who decidedes what gets sent?
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18:29 | se6astian | yes and I offered to help with doing that
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18:30 | derWalter_ | but what mailing list?
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18:30 | se6astian | the team mailing list?
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18:31 | se6astian | anyone can send to the team mailing list
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18:31 | Bertl | derWalter_: so, what is your point? (to finish it :)
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18:31 | morrigan | hmm
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18:31 | morrigan | since we are apparently discussing this now...
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18:31 | derWalter_ | well we wanted to hear some one else then sebastian and bertl to say something about it :)
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18:32 | morrigan | I only have one comment immediately. question 2."what is needed to be changed in the project(), name three things). This already implies changes are needed, which is in my opinion the wrong wording.
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18:32 | dasChristoph[m] | how would you ask?
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18:32 | morrigan | It implies that the current structure/roles/way of communication are somehow flawed/not working
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18:32 | derWalter_ | well this is regarding the first question: "what is the revolutionary potential of the apertus project in your eyes/for you? "
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18:32 | dasChristoph[m] | would be nice to agree on the questions
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18:33 | dasChristoph[m] | or on new ones!
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18:33 | morrigan | I would ask "Do you have any suggestions to improve upon (list of things)"
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18:33 | morrigan | Your wording implies you have already identified a problem and are actively searching for solutions.
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18:33 | derWalter_ | the problem with this is, that people wont leave their comfort zones
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18:34 | derWalter_ | because they threaten them self with opening up and saying what they really think
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18:34 | intracube | quick notes on 3 strengths/things to improve:
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18:34 | intracube | Strengths:: 1a. personal customisation 1b. lack of 'lock-in' or artificial feature limitations 1c. ability for a competing manufacturer to take the designs build the hardware (reduces the single point of failure)
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18:34 | Rex0r | "Do you have any suggestions which might improve how the community functions"*
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18:34 | intracube | Issues:: 2a. stronger formal structure and roles 2b. consider cutting down and rationalising the feature list, (at least early on to avoid getting overloaded 2c
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18:34 | derWalter_ | so by asking a question like this, the person asking is taking the "blame" and the people feeling safe to talk about uncomfortable opinions
| 18:34 | intracube | couldn't think of 2c
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18:35 | derWalter_ | morrigan thats what the whole project is about
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18:35 | morrigan | No, by asking the question like this you generate a wrong impression, simple as that.
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18:35 | derWalter_ | nope, we can prove on many levels that it is like this
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18:35 | derWalter_ | we are researching this topic for years now and have a lot of material on this :/
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18:36 | derWalter_ | we just dont want to crush the project with all of it
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18:36 | morrigan | So, then, which problems have you identified?
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18:36 | derWalter_ | (who is making the decisions and how are they formed)
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18:36 | derWalter_ | what is the goal of Apertus?
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18:36 | derWalter_ | in the end: who is deciding what happend with 1,5mil € ?
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18:37 | derWalter_ | there was a call for revolutionizing the camera market with an open source camera, a lot of momentum was generated and a lot of money as well
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18:37 | morrigan | So, just to be clear, your self-appointed role is policing the project? You have me confused.
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18:37 | Bertl | we get 1.5 milion euros? sounds great!
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18:38 | derWalter_ | bertl, how much did you get all in all?
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18:38 | Bertl | you mean from the crowd funding?
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18:38 | derWalter_ | lets count crowdfunding + EU + staging money?
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18:38 | dasChristoph[m] | we got frustrated in contributing because of this, that is the reason we started the doc project
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18:38 | se6astian | even though this sounds like a hot debate that could go on for quite some time lets keep this breif now so we can finish the meeting before 20:00
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18:38 | intracube | :)
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18:38 | morrigan | ah, so the doc project is not documentation FOR the project but ABOUT the project
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18:39 | dasChristoph[m] | j
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18:39 | derWalter_ | nope morrigan
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18:39 | davidak | yes, please discuss this later
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18:39 | dasChristoph[m] | about and for
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18:39 | derWalter_ | it is FOR the project by ABOUT
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18:39 | derWalter_ | raising questions and finding solutions and then projecting the postive meaning on the project trough the documentary
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18:40 | dasChristoph[m] | can we have time at the end of the list?
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18:40 | morrigan | sounds like a phrase right out of any project management training I have ever slep through. That doesn't change the fact that your wording is not neutral.
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18:40 | derWalter_ | it is not neutral on purpose
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18:40 | morrigan | Then you are lying, on purpose.
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18:40 | morrigan | To generate negative answers.
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18:41 | intracube | morrigan: that's rather harsh
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18:41 | derWalter_ | i am not lying
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18:41 | morrigan | I don't see the value FOR the project in a methodology as tjis.
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18:41 | derWalter_ | i can validate my arguments, but this will take hours
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18:41 | dasChristoph[m] | we would like to invite you to rephrase the questions
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18:41 | derWalter_ | firs
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18:41 | morrigan | I did.
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18:41 | derWalter_ | and secondly, you are implying that finding and talking about problems is negative
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18:41 | derWalter_ | i call it evoultion or learning
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18:41 | morrigan | No, read what I said
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18:42 | derWalter_ | if we look an the parts we are failing at, we can learn and leave restrictions behind
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18:42 | morrigan | I say that phrasing questions in this way, to imply there is a problem when there is no evidence of one, is dodgy.
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18:42 | derWalter_ | maybe you have a look at: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest
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18:42 | derWalter_ | morrigan we know, we met several evenings and discussed this
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18:42 | simonrepp | i don't think this is the right place for the discussion emerging here, i'll add my +1 to sebastian's comment to please make it short and wrap it up
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18:42 | morrigan | Fair enough, it was not my idea to do this now.
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18:43 | derWalter_ | morrigan you seem to get the points and i really like your way of critique
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18:43 | derWalter_ | are you interessted to clear this up with us some time?
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18:43 | dasChristoph[m] | for all who are interested in developing this topic please inform us at *email address removed*
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18:43 | se6astian | derWalter, dasChristoph[m] closing statements for this point please
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18:43 | dasChristoph[m] | close topic for now
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18:43 | se6astian | thanks
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18:44 | se6astian | so returning to the topic of OLPF, intracube
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18:44 | derWalter_ | we need a plattform for dicsussions like this
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18:44 | intracube | hi
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18:44 | derWalter_ | we lost a lot of momentum over the past years and there are obvious reasons
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18:44 | intracube | alexML: regarding the footage with aliasing, I can point to the .MOV file I used, but you'd need to speak to se6astian about the actual source
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18:44 | Bertl | #derWalter ?
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18:44 | davidak | you can always come to irc, we have the mailing list, we have the lab, ...
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18:44 | derWalter_ | all that ended in a dead end
| |
18:45 | intracube | alexML: I think it was early alpha footage
| |
18:45 | morrigan | irc is fine, too many different platforms make it to ohard to consolidate information.
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18:45 | derWalter_ | RIGHT
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18:45 | intracube | but either way, it's the same sensor, so the results will be the same as with the Beta
| |
18:45 | derWalter_ | point one
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18:45 | kaiserlich | can we let intracube talk now
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18:45 | kaiserlich | please
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18:45 | simonrepp | yes agree, please
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18:45 | se6astian | Bertl: do I remember correctly that we ordered a small sample of an OLPF some time ago, or was it only a UV/IR cut of filter sample?
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18:46 | Bertl | good question ... I remember that we planned to do that
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18:46 | derWalter_ | i would like to agree but i see that the aggraving topic is just pushed out of the way
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18:46 | se6astian | "small sample" smaller than the apsc sensor area
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18:46 | derWalter_ | aggravating
| |
18:46 | Bertl | yeah, something like 1x1cm or so
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18:47 | Bertl | have to check if we ever got that ...
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18:47 | se6astian | please do
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18:47 | intracube | derWalter_: it's more that it's taken up 30 mins. but structure of these meetings is a good thing to work on
| |
18:47 | se6astian | we could do some tests with it
| |
18:47 | intracube | eg, give each topic X minutes
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18:47 | intracube | anything else can be rolled into an after-meeting discussion
| |
18:47 | kaiserlich | yeah, like a stand-up meeting
| |
18:48 | Bertl | with a stand-up comedian? :)
| |
18:48 | morrigan | no, agile/scrum
| |
18:48 | Bertl | no swear words please ... :)
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18:48 | se6astian | so intracube, in any case: if we add an OLPF it should be modular
| |
18:49 | derWalter_ | morrigan, yes, no agile/scrum :P
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18:49 | intracube | se6astian: yes, and likely would fall into 'optional extra' category
| |
18:49 | se6astian | so we need to find a way to use the camera with OLPF or with UV/IR filter only
| |
18:49 | derWalter_ | no holacracy, no sociocracy
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18:49 | intracube | price point seems to be sub-$200 at a rough estimate
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18:49 | se6astian | my current approach is to develop a shim layer to insert under the lens mount in case we do not find an OLPF and IR/UV filter that have same thickness/density (which I consider quite unlikely)
| |
18:49 | intracube | se6astian: it seems likely that you could order an OLPF with different thickness
| |
18:50 | intracube | so might be possible to balance that with the UV/IR requirement
| |
18:50 | intracube | to avoid backfocus issues
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18:50 | Bertl | we probably need to balance three 'filter' though
| |
18:51 | Bertl | or more precisely, several combinations
| |
18:51 | intracube | it's possible to get a combined OLPF/UV filter
| |
18:51 | intracube | but I haven't seen one with IR as well
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18:51 | Bertl | i.e. a) no filter, no OLPF b) UV/IR cut-off, c) UV/IR + OLPF
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18:51 | intracube | yep
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18:52 | se6astian | c) is one piece typically
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18:52 | intracube | has there been any talk about having the IR filter be removable?
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18:52 | se6astian | a) is just "glass"
| |
18:52 | se6astian | but yes you are right: 3 options in the end need to be covered
| |
18:52 | intracube | it's probably a niche requirement, but some people like to do IR landscape photos
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18:53 | se6astian | we try to keep everything modular/replaceable in general
| |
18:54 | se6astian | it would be interesting to talk to an optical engineer in that regard, if anyone has contacts please let me know
| |
18:54 | se6astian | my idea would be to offer a shim for every filter - that way we are rather flexible with thicknesses, FFD
| |
18:54 | se6astian | but its of course a bit cumbersome to change shim when changing filter
| |
18:55 | jucar | left the channel | |
18:55 | se6astian | topic concluded from my side though
| |
18:55 | intracube | se6astian: briefly; any idea how the filter would be fixed in place?
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18:55 | Bertl | well, I doubt that folks who consider an OLPF very important or essential will remove it
| |
18:56 | intracube | might not be a good idea using a screwdriver that near to the sensor...
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18:56 | intracube | maybe a plastic clip arrangement?
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18:56 | se6astian | intracube: likely by a aluminum CNC milled "holder" which is screwed to the part holding the sensor
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18:57 | intracube | ok
| |
18:57 | se6astian | Bertl: right I also see it more as a one time assembly thing
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18:57 | Bertl | maybe an 'upgrade' at some point (cost factor)
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18:57 | se6astian | yes
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18:57 | intracube | agreed. most people are unlikely to want to swap it regularly
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18:58 | intracube | I think that's it from me
| |
18:58 | intracube | and if anyone finds any new suppliers, links can be added to the wiki
| |
18:58 | se6astian | thanks!
| |
18:58 | se6astian | so if there are no further points to discuss meeting is concluded
| |
18:58 | se6astian | the meeting minutes are going up on the wiki now
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18:59 | derWalter_ | stopo
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18:59 | se6astian | when will we hold the next meeting
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18:59 | derWalter_ | you said we will push the point to the end of the meeting
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18:59 | se6astian | 8th of may would be an option
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18:59 | intracube | derWalter_: it's an open channel now, you're free to continue :)
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18:59 | Bertl | derWalter_: you can use up all our time and the channel in five minutes
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19:00 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ a full-on discussion, possibly longwinded, is not what the meeting is for
| |
19:00 | derWalter_ | but there is no other meeting
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19:00 | derWalter_ | thats the only meeting apertus have?
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19:00 | kaiserlich | but most people are still here?
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19:00 | davidak | se6astian: 8.5 is ok with me
| |
19:00 | Bertl | se6astian: sounds good to me too
| |
19:00 | se6astian | 19:00 CES!T again?
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19:00 | se6astian | great, noted
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19:00 | derWalter_ | kaiserlich: thats right!
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19:01 | intracube | se6astian: wasn't the last one 2 weeks ago?
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19:01 | se6astian | meeting concluded, derWalter feel free to cover your topics now in any length and depth :)
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19:01 | derWalter_ | thx
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19:01 | intracube | ah no, 3 wk intervals
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19:02 | derWalter_ | there was just one point we failed to nail down: is any one interessted in our work? :D
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19:02 | Bertl | derWalter_: you don't want our input (se6astian's and mine) anyway, so we can probably leave?
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19:02 | intracube | 8th sounds good
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19:02 | derWalter_ | Bertl, thats not right
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19:02 | kaiserlich | i think they want anyone's input
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19:02 | se6astian | intracube: last meeting was on 27th of march
| |
19:02 | derWalter_ | but you and sebastian are the dominant people in the project and we wanted to hear other voices
| |
19:02 | dasChristoph[m] | yeah
| |
19:03 | derWalter_ | or open the room, before you already gave the official statement on the topic
| |
19:03 | derWalter_ | and everyone with a crictical statement will not say anything afterwards
| |
19:03 | kaiserlich | i like the idea of mailing your questions over the team mailing list
| |
19:04 | dasChristoph[m] | and you mailing back?
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19:04 | jucar | joined the channel | |
19:04 | derWalter_ | there are so many people involved now in the project and the whole structure is so obscure
| |
19:04 | kaiserlich | personally, i'd like to take more time to answer these questions, not a fan of questions getting sprung on me like that (:
| |
19:05 | dasChristoph[m] | i like a 'public' discussion but maybe it is a good idea to prepare the questions all together before
| |
19:05 | derWalter_ | sry, but thats the only live meeting there is :/
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19:05 | dasChristoph[m] | i see.
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19:05 | derWalter_ | we knew we are going to break the format a little bit
| |
19:05 | Bertl | we are always 'live' here on the channel
| |
19:05 | dasChristoph[m] | i understand that this is overwhelming
| |
19:05 | davidak | derWalter: i'm following the project for some years now and see you two the first time. what is your role and why have you decided to ask such questions right now?
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19:05 | derWalter_ | http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest
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19:06 | kaiserlich | it's not that it is "overwhelming", i felt it was maybe a bit disruptive (of the meeting, which has a specific purpose) and in a format that doesn't fit me
| |
19:06 | derWalter_ | davidak, thats exactly the thing :) :) :)
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19:06 | kaiserlich | and it's true that there are always people involved in the project in here
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19:06 | kaiserlich | involved in or interested in
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19:07 | derWalter_ | davidak, have you had a read into the piratepadlink i ve posted?
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19:07 | Bertl | could you paste it again? *G*
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19:08 | morrigan | wait what
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19:08 | morrigan | "the whole structure is so obscure" ?
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19:08 | davidak | derWalter: i had no time to
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19:08 | derWalter_ | just read the first lines
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19:09 | morrigan | well, well, well
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19:09 | derWalter_ | i hope that cleares up a little bitt :)
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19:09 | Bertl | morrigan: I agree, we have no idea what derWalter and dasChristoph[m] are doing and why ...
| |
19:09 | dasChristoph[m] | is this the only 'public' and 'live' meeting for general purpose discussions?
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19:09 | kaiserlich | discussions take place in here all the time
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19:10 | derWalter_ | bertl, havent you read our discussion @lab?
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19:10 | Bertl | dasChristoph[m]: and it is always live and public
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19:10 | derWalter_ | but not a meeting
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19:10 | derWalter_ | there is no meeting where people come and gather, to decide stuff
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19:10 | derWalter_ | but this one
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19:11 | Bertl | actually it is more to let others know what they are working on
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19:11 | kaiserlich | yeah, it's an update meeting
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19:11 | simonrepp | guys, this irc meeting exists because me and sebastian (and before philippej who documented the idea) made it happen, so obviously things can be put into place if someone just does it, it's as hard and as easy as that.
| |
19:11 | dasChristoph[m] | we like the project and i wanted to work in the ergonimics group till i got frustrated by unclear decision structures..
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19:11 | Bertl | dasChristoph[m]: like?
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19:11 | simonrepp | of course the project is obscure, every large open* something project is, that's the beauty and the problem with it
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19:12 | dasChristoph[m] | as an answer why we are here
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19:12 | Bertl | unclear decision structures like what for example?
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19:12 | derWalter_ | like who decided to buy the CNC with the crowdfunding money?
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19:12 | morrigan | yes, I don't quite get that one either
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19:13 | morrigan | the structure question, that is
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19:13 | Bertl | the folks who did the crowd funding decided it, isn't it obvious?
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19:13 | kaiserlich | simonrepp well put. i'm experiencing this again with a python project i was made a co-maintainer of ^^ it's slowly becoming more structured now, but it's still VERY messy in places
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19:14 | derWalter_ | in the end the person who takes the most place, decides the most...
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19:14 | dasChristoph[m] | i worked in the ergonomics group and when we found a solution sebastian said ok, we will see if we can do that.. but where is the decision coming from?
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19:14 | morrigan | Well. I now read the piratepad notes and am still not clear what your goal is.
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19:14 | derWalter_ | not a problem per se, but this was a frontier project on the camera market, got most of the momentum there is for such a project, all the attention, much much money .... and what...
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19:15 | dasChristoph[m] | who is above for example the ergonomics group? who decides what that group can do and how much effort and money is going into it?
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19:15 | derWalter_ | oh it is written there:
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19:15 | derWalter_ | The goal of the Apertus Documentary is to document the becoming of a revolutionary idea, "to break the market of the proprietary(totally closed and therefore consumer hostile) cinemafilm- & movie camera market, with open sourcing everything, fair pay, ecological design concepts, quality and community first, instead of quantity, market share and maximizing profit no matter the cost" looking for, researching and focusing on, the
| |
19:15 | kaiserlich | i think the people who invest the most time into the project just... naturally end up having the most say
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19:15 | morrigan | It reads like a cross between investigative journalism and study
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19:15 | derWalter_ | happening and needed inside the mind of the people of the target group and the poeple working on realizing the project with this great ideas and ideals.
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19:15 | morrigan | yes, I read that
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19:15 | derWalter_ | morrigan exactly
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19:16 | Bertl | dasChristoph[m]: you decide how much time and money you want to spend on it
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19:16 | morrigan | "
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19:16 | morrigan | "By choosing the Apertus project as target object for this Documentary, we are drawing a lot of positive attention to its potential!
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19:16 | morrigan | "
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19:16 | morrigan | and you do this by creating questionnaires with oddly phrased questions?
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19:17 | dasChristoph[m] | i can not decide because it is a team - work and my decision are not of interest if someone else is deciding the other way.. its is not very effective
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19:17 | davidak | dasChristoph[m]: regarding your questions: is it now answered clear enough on the apertus website?
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19:17 | derWalter_ | bertl, the problem is, if you say, i am gong for this and that, give me your money to reach that goal and then in the middle of the way you decide you go for an other goal without asking the person giving you the money.... it kills trust and momentum
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19:17 | morrigan | Has this happened?
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19:17 | derWalter_ | for me it has
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19:17 | morrigan | When and where?
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19:17 | davidak | dasChristoph[m]: https://www.apertus.org/join-the-team
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19:18 | derWalter_ | there where decisions made which lead to delay
| |
19:18 | morrigan | No, a concrete answer please, since that is a rather heavy insinuation.
| |
19:18 | derWalter_ | like not using money for paying people, like not using money for production
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19:18 | morrigan | At what point has the goal changed, in your opinion?
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19:18 | derWalter_ | and if we look at the EU project, where nearly a million € got roasted...
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19:19 | Bertl | sorry to interrupt, news flash: production was never part of the crowd funding
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19:19 | derWalter_ | the slow down is a change of the goal
| |
19:19 | dasChristoph[m] | then: what is the structure/ roles and persons of the 'core' team? wher is this written?
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19:19 | simonrepp | i'm off now, if this discussion would have been announced i might have reserved time, but now i haven't, feel free to get in touch personally, you have my mail :)
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19:19 | derWalter_ | changing the delivery date
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19:19 | derWalter_ | stuff like this
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19:19 | kaiserlich | i think this is to be expected with any crowdfunding campaign
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19:19 | Bertl | newsflash: we had no delivery date
| |
19:19 | morrigan | No, a delay != change of goal, make up your mind. let's sync definitions first, or this discussion will go nowhere
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19:19 | derWalter_ | yes, but is it the only way it can be?
| |
19:20 | derWalter_ | can we think out of the box?
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19:20 | derWalter_ | yes, we can!
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19:20 | derWalter_ | we found other solutions
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19:20 | Bertl | despite that, we also delivered within our projected timeframe
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19:20 | simonrepp | left the channel | |
19:21 | derWalter_ | okay, than everything is nice
| |
19:21 | Bertl | I would say so, but maybe I'm wrong :)
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19:21 | morrigan | I fail to see the problem either
| |
19:22 | derWalter_ | we are not talking about the founding and board members of the company, the people who are in charge, the apertus association and how the are linked, how you can become a member and decide.
| |
19:22 | morrigan | what are we talking about then?
| |
19:22 | derWalter_ | we do not want to talk about daily business, but about the structure behind
| |
19:23 | derWalter_ | who got the money
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19:23 | derWalter_ | who decided what to do with it
| |
19:23 | derWalter_ | where did the money go?
| |
19:23 | dasChristoph[m] | from the outside it is wired. maybe it is a strength of the project but i believe it will kill the project at some point that is why i want to see more clear and outspoken roles- domains an rules.. but mayby i am wrong ;)
| |
19:23 | derWalter_ | why did it go there?
| |
19:23 | morrigan | so what you want is to perform an finance review?
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19:23 | derWalter_ | the main problem: who is aperts?
| |
19:23 | derWalter_ | who are the legally in charge people
| |
19:23 | Bertl | no idea
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19:24 | derWalter_ | what is the goal of apertus
| |
19:24 | derWalter_ | yeah, what is it?
| |
19:24 | derWalter_ | is it a hobby project?
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19:24 | derWalter_ | is it an entrepeneurship?
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19:24 | derWalter_ | is it a businessplan?
| |
19:24 | derWalter_ | is it a movement?
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19:24 | morrigan | I always thought the web page pretty much describes what it is, what the goals are and who the people involved with it are
| |
19:24 | Bertl | https://www.apertus.org/about
| |
19:24 | morrigan | it is an open source opne hardware project.
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19:25 | derWalter_ | guys, thats the surface
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19:25 | derWalter_ | the website
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19:25 | derWalter_ | but who is legally written in the books?
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19:25 | derWalter_ | who OWNS the apertus company?
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19:25 | dasChristoph[m] | and which legal structure?
| |
19:25 | derWalter_ | who decides in the apertus company?
| |
19:25 | derWalter_ | who OWNS the money?
| |
19:25 | derWalter_ | and the last of the three points
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19:25 | morrigan | ah.
| |
19:25 | derWalter_ | what is the role of the community?
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19:25 | morrigan | Now we are getting somewhere
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19:26 | derWalter_ | are we PART of it? are we going to decide stuff?
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19:26 | derWalter_ | HOW are is the company legaly bound to listen to the community?
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19:26 | derWalter_ | how can i become part of the association?
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19:26 | derWalter_ | how often is the assosiation meeting?
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19:26 | derWalter_ | you know the answers?
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19:26 | derWalter_ | found it online?
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19:26 | Bertl | obviously you decided to hijack the meeting today ... and you kind of succeeded, no? :)
| |
19:26 | derWalter_ | on the website? :)
| |
19:26 | morrigan | this isn't about documenting the projcet, as in collecting information useful for people who want to build a camera on their own or whaever, this is about uncovering "secrets"
| |
19:27 | morrigan | that explains the phrasing of the questions then
| |
19:27 | morrigan | you are hardly unbiased here
| |
19:27 | derWalter_ | did you just read: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.k2SZLPvfF2t/latest ?
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19:27 | derWalter_ | :D
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19:27 | morrigan | Oh I did
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19:27 | Bertl | it sounds a lot like bad journalism to me, yes
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19:27 | morrigan | I already commented, scroll up
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19:27 | Rex0r | That stuff hasn't been ultimately determined yet. Structure, and how it might be possible to move away from more traditional corporate models, is presently being researched.
| |
19:27 | derWalter_ | are you unbiased ?
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19:27 | dasChristoph[m] | it is more about how can a community with revolutionary drive be set and work
| |
19:28 | Bertl | i.e. quick, start a fire, we need something to report about
| |
19:28 | derWalter_ | are you maybe protecting a system which is explointing you and your productivity?
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19:28 | morrigan | LOL
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19:28 | derWalter_ | :D
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19:28 | morrigan | Cute
| |
19:28 | derWalter_ | bertl, if we would have handled our footage like this .....
| |
19:28 | Bertl | yes, I feel totally exploited now ...
| |
19:28 | morrigan | Damn.
| |
19:28 | derWalter_ | we have like 10 hours of recorded footage which left us very unhappy
| |
19:29 | derWalter_ | with interview results which gave us a hard time for over a year now
| |
19:29 | derWalter_ | how to handle the stuff
| |
19:29 | Bertl | no babies or kittens in there?
| |
19:29 | morrigan | how to handle WHAT?
| |
19:29 | derWalter_ | and HOW the fuck turn this into something positive for the project
| |
19:29 | Bertl | yes, that is an excellent question!
| |
19:29 | morrigan | you know that no one is forcing you to turn this into anything?
| |
19:29 | morrigan | and again
| |
19:30 | morrigan | WHAT needs to be handled?
| |
19:30 | derWalter_ | bertl, just because you are such a geek that you excell in everything technical you touch, doesnt make you right.
| |
19:30 | derWalter_ | you might be a genius, but you are not right per se
| |
19:30 | derWalter_ | morrigan, there is
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19:30 | morrigan | I'm listening, go ahead.
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19:30 | morrigan | What needs to be handled?
| |
19:31 | dasChristoph[m] | we want that something is going back to the project and not into sand..
| |
19:31 | derWalter_ | I maybe will never be in touch with the project ever again, but i tried to run away from speaking about it loudly for a year now, but it always came back to me
| |
19:31 | derWalter_ | and we want something GOOD happening for the project
| |
19:31 | morrigan | it came back to you because it still exists? Or what is the point here?
| |
19:31 | morrigan | I think it's doing well, personally
| |
19:31 | Bertl | haunted
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19:31 | derWalter_ | kinda
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19:32 | kaiserlich | i get the frustration of really wanting to see a project succeed and not seeing it because it is not succeeding in ways one thinks it should... if that makes sense. and i think there are really only 2 options: accept it and move on or get involved (properly)
| |
19:32 | morrigan | you haven't answered my question
| |
19:32 | morrigan | what shocked you so badly?
| |
19:32 | derWalter_ | it is doing well on the surface!
| |
19:32 | derWalter_ | but its power structure is rotting on the inside
| |
19:32 | derWalter_ | from the inside
| |
19:32 | morrigan | ...
| |
19:32 | morrigan | wow
| |
19:32 | morrigan | so
| |
19:32 | morrigan | let me get this straight
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19:32 | derWalter_ | well, we are getting involved now
| |
19:32 | derWalter_ | but dont tell me whats properly
| |
19:33 | morrigan | you claim you have no idea about who the people behind apertus are, and who is in charge, but can tell with certaintly that things are rotting?
| |
19:33 | kaiserlich | well, getting involved in an open source project means taking on work
| |
19:33 | morrigan | do you have an idea how that sounds?
| |
19:33 | kaiserlich | i.e. investing time
| |
19:33 | derWalter_ | morrigan, you know the board members?
| |
19:33 | kaiserlich | energy
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19:33 | derWalter_ | and you know who they are?
| |
19:33 | Bertl | https://www.apertus.org/association
| |
19:34 | morrigan | I know who the team is, and have met some of them personally, and chatted on IRC with others
| |
19:34 | Bertl | (everybody knows, no?)
| |
19:34 | morrigan | so.
| |
19:34 | derWalter_ | http://zvr.bmi.gv.at/Start
| |
19:34 | derWalter_ | go there and put in apertus
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19:34 | morrigan | back to the oriiginal wuestion
| |
19:34 | derWalter_ | something strange over there?
| |
19:35 | morrigan | what is you tell me
| |
19:35 | Bertl | looks fine to me, same people there
| |
19:35 | morrigan | you tell me, what is strange there?
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19:35 | derWalter_ | assiation is dead
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19:35 | derWalter_ | association
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19:36 | morrigan | sigh
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19:36 | morrigan | I don't know what you read from this
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19:36 | derWalter_ | it ran out 2016
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19:36 | derWalter_ | the meeting to elect the new head was never held
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19:36 | derWalter_ | nor announced
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19:36 | derWalter_ | what is the legal status?
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19:36 | morrigan | and that is what haunts you in the 10 hours of interview material?
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19:37 | derWalter_ | if there is a contract between the company and the association, it is not active atm
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19:37 | morrigan | or was there something else?
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19:37 | derWalter_ | morrigan
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19:37 | derWalter_ | so you want to protect the status quo?
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19:37 | derWalter_ | its "doing pretty well" for you
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19:38 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ i think what you are not seeing is that things are changing and improving all the time, but only slowly because the team isn't huge and everyone does apertus/axiom stuff in their free time
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19:38 | morrigan | if you mean by that do I want the project to remain alive and continue developing the camera, then the answer is yes, of course
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19:38 | derWalter_ | kaiserlich: there was a year of paid work time
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19:38 | kaiserlich | you mean the EU project?
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19:38 | Bertl | for the EU project, yes
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19:39 | morrigan | he confuses those two, I think
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19:39 | derWalter_ | okay guys, for me it is over
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19:39 | derWalter_ | i see, no interesst
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19:39 | morrigan | ....
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19:39 | derWalter_ | which is totally okay for me
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19:39 | morrigan | NO INTEREST?
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19:39 | kaiserlich | we're all interested in the project
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19:39 | morrigan | you are trying to provooke me, right?
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19:39 | derWalter_ | in the project, yes
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19:39 | kaiserlich | apertus/axiom that is
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19:39 | morrigan | you are succeeding
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19:39 | derWalter_ | but not in what we dug up ;)
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19:40 | derWalter_ | morrigan, i offer you again: lets meet in person :)
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19:40 | derWalter_ | if you want i can show you some parts of the interviews
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19:40 | morrigan | you come in, make vague references, do not answer one single question, but always evade, and then conclude there is no interest=?
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19:40 | morrigan | seriously
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19:40 | derWalter_ | morrigan:
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19:40 | derWalter_ | what question didnt i answer?
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19:41 | kaiserlich | but what is that you dug up? i'm thinking some of the stuff might already be outdated (: and the EU project is well documented (not sure if it's public, but the EU is very thorough in making sure everything goes according to plan)
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19:41 | derWalter_ | you just pushed every answer awy
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19:41 | derWalter_ | kaiserlich: just because it is outdated, it does not count?
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19:41 | morrigan | You gave me not a single answer
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19:41 | Bertl | yes, the EU project is all public
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19:41 | dasChristoph[m] | @morrigan: (as an example): have you personaly voted the board members?
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19:41 | derWalter_ | i am not talking about public shit
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19:41 | derWalter_ | :)
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19:41 | derWalter_ | public is public
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19:42 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ i wouldn't put outdated info in a documentary except if you were trying to document progress, but for that you'd have to check in with the project often
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19:42 | derWalter_ | but whats relly happening :)
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19:42 | derWalter_ | yes, it is all about progress
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19:42 | derWalter_ | nothing else
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19:42 | morrigan | I think your main problem is that right there
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19:42 | derWalter_ | did you read the link i ve posted?
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19:42 | Bertl | which one?
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19:42 | kaiserlich | which link?
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19:42 | kaiserlich | i think we've all read the pad by now
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19:42 | derWalter_ | bertl being serious :P
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19:42 | morrigan | you refuse to accept that there is nothing sinister going on, and no deep dark secrets to be uncovered.
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19:42 | morrigan | I asked what made you upset about the interviews
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19:43 | derWalter_ | you refuse to accept that there is a lot sinister going on, and no deep dark secrets to be uncovered.
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19:43 | morrigan | lol
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19:43 | dasChristoph[m] | there is nothing 'dark'
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19:43 | derWalter_ | ;)
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19:43 | dasChristoph[m] | ha
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19:43 | derWalter_ | whats the your point? WALTER!!! YOU !! SHALL NOT !!! PAAASSSS!!!
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19:43 | morrigan | I read the pad.
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19:43 | Bertl | I have to check my basement now ... maybe something sinister there?
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19:43 | dasChristoph[m] | it's the lack of clearness
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19:43 | derWalter_ | coffing @bertl?
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19:44 | Rex0r | derWalter - Anyone who's willing to dedicate time to the project deciding "never to be in touch with the project again" would be unfortunate. It seems that the idea of 'company' structure, which isn't a word any of us like to use, is provocative... In terms of functioning 'business' it's early days, so it would behove anyone with suspicions in this regard to exercise some patience because how apertus conducts business in th
| |
19:44 | derWalter_ | it is part of our documentary... we confront the team with our findings
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19:44 | derWalter_ | how is it reacting
| |
19:44 | Rex0r | ... business in the marketplace hasn't been finalised yet.
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19:45 | Bertl | derWalter_: excellent, make a full featured film of it and send us an invitation to the screening ...
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19:45 | derWalter_ | well, there was a plan, alsways, that was the reason why the money was transfered to the company
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19:45 | derWalter_ | and there is no problem with it
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19:46 | derWalter_ | there must be people doing the daily business
| |
19:46 | morrigan | then what is?
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19:46 | derWalter_ | the pr
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19:46 | derWalter_ | the RM
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19:46 | kaiserlich | but are you suggesting that the money of the crowdfunders is used in ways it shouldn't be used? like... as if there will not be cameras in the end for everyone? (cameras are already being produced, but dev versions for now)
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19:46 | derWalter_ | CRM
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19:46 | derWalter_ | and so forth
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19:46 | derWalter_ | but the community should be in charg of a community project, shouldnt it? regardless if the project is paying wages or not?!?
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19:46 | morrigan | that's what he is not only suggesting bt has more or less said. Which is pretty sad, i'd reckon
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19:46 | Bertl | let me add here, that the crowd funding was _for_the_development_ of the Beta
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19:46 | morrigan | ^
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19:47 | morrigan | and it was developed.
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19:47 | Bertl | which already happened and very successfully I might add
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19:47 | derWalter_ | if the goal is to produce a camera, thats fine... if the goal is to compete in the market and shake it, revolutionize it, then no! @kay
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19:47 | morrigan | unless people are lying to me and those odd things lying around are fakes.
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19:47 | RexOrCine[m] | The PR is a team effort really.
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19:47 | derWalter_ | deliverydate was also part of the crowdfunding @bertl
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19:47 | Bertl | we didn't crowd fund any shaking, did we?
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19:48 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ but for now, the crowdfunding campaign has to be finished. that is the first goal. anything else can come later
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19:48 | derWalter_ | well, the team effort would be better placed in looking some one else to do it! have you seen the last teamtalk?
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19:48 | Bertl | kaiserlich: the crowd funding is long finished
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19:48 | derWalter_ | kaiserlich: well, thats your goal, but are the decisions which are getting carried out, pointing that direction?
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19:48 | kaiserlich | Bertl true, i meant more everyone getting their cameras
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19:49 | Bertl | well, that's something which can take centuries
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19:49 | derWalter_ | Bertl NO! apertus had it at his hands
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19:49 | kaiserlich | i think that is what frustrates the two.
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19:50 | Bertl | if some guy or gal decides to cach in their voucher in 2050, so be it (given the project still exists, despite all the sinister forces :)
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19:50 | morrigan | I'd rather think they want the PR job...
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19:50 | derWalter_ | well, no one payed for a voucher to get it 2050
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19:50 | derWalter_ | i mean thats exactly the problem
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19:50 | Bertl | you sure?
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19:50 | derWalter_ | that answer
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19:50 | morrigan | so...
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19:50 | derWalter_ | what was the estimated delivery? 2050? you wouldnt cash a single dime with that
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19:50 | Bertl | I'm pretty sure a lot of folks payed for the development regardless of the voucher
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19:51 | morrigan | did you want a camera and didn't get one yet? Or someone you know?
| |
19:51 | kaiserlich | i think they want the project to flourish but they don't know the day-to-day (though they would like to? i'm guessing)
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19:51 | Bertl | once again, the _delivery_ was for the design
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19:51 | kaiserlich | though i don't get the level of emotional investment
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19:51 | morrigan | me neither
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19:51 | derWalter_ | i would love to work my ass of for the project
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19:51 | Bertl | and that already happened a long time ago
| |
19:51 | derWalter_ | all my free time
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19:51 | derWalter_ | but who is making the decisions?
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19:51 | Bertl | what decisions
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19:51 | Rex0r | But many of us are already doing that Walter.
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19:52 | Bertl | you are free to decide what you want to work on
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19:52 | derWalter_ | nope
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19:52 | morrigan | yes you are
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19:52 | derWalter_ | well, lets say i put in 100 hours
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19:52 | morrigan | or is anyone keeping you from doing your documentation project?
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19:52 | derWalter_ | i land some coup which boosts the project
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19:52 | derWalter_ | and it miracolous becomes a mega success
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19:52 | Bertl | it isn't already? :)
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19:53 | derWalter_ | and i want some share of it
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19:53 | morrigan | ah
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19:53 | derWalter_ | just thinking of it
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19:53 | derWalter_ | yes, everything is open source, but who holds the power over the structure
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19:53 | Bertl | then you start your company, build Betas and off you go a millionaire :)
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19:53 | morrigan | indeed
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19:53 | derWalter_ | right bertl, but there is apertus, the original, with all my time put into it
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19:53 | derWalter_ | already
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19:53 | Bertl | I really don't see the problem
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19:54 | derWalter_ | bertl, you are in that position, why should you see a problem :)
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19:54 | morrigan | it's no different than any other FOSS project
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19:54 | derWalter_ | and thats good?
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19:54 | derWalter_ | thats perfectly how you want it to be?
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19:54 | derWalter_ | that how you would design it?
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19:54 | derWalter_ | yes/no?
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19:55 | morrigan | yes, in this context yes, probably.
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19:55 | Bertl | in an ideal world, everything would be FOSS/OH
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19:55 | Bertl | and there would be no need to discuss the benefits
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19:55 | derWalter_ | probably?
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19:56 | derWalter_ | what are your doubts?
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19:56 | morrigan | probably because my field of expertise is not project management and I'd have to research before giving a definite answer there.
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19:57 | derWalter_ | my field of expertise is project management and psychology
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19:58 | derWalter_ | if you search the lab i tiped some pages of expertise
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19:58 | derWalter_ | there is a thread, where christoph started to ask questions
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19:58 | Bertl | thread id?
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19:58 | derWalter_ | and we started to discuss, about the management structure of the project
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19:58 | derWalter_ | how to implement the community into decision making
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19:58 | morrigan | what's your background?
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19:58 | Bertl | (or more precisely: task ID)
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19:59 | Bertl | as the lab is actually a task tracker
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19:59 | derWalter_ | studing psychotherapy sciences and being a trained executive consultant
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19:59 | derWalter_ | specialized in sociocracy
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19:59 | derWalter_ | by www.soziokratie.at
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20:00 | derWalter_ | coming from a management background in 4 family businesses
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20:00 | davidak | so now i have read up all the chat...
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20:00 | dasChristoph[m] | lab id T604
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20:00 | Bertl | tx
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20:01 | kaiserlich | i think you're mixing two things up, derWalter_... i think you're looking at it as if apertus were a company producing stuff steadily and there were a community of users, like e.g. lomography or the impossible project. but right now it's a tiny thing where the "community" is the people getting involved by investing their time, knowledge, energy (and then there are people who just want to buy a camera)
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20:01 | kaiserlich | because it's an open source project
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20:01 | kaiserlich | and not (yet) a prospering business
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20:02 | davidak | derWalter: i think everyone here is doing all what he can. i make suggestions in the past, for example that communicating the progess is very important and it has improved very much over the past years. see the team talks and twitter
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20:02 | derWalter_ | yes kay, but there are two things regarding this: first, who makes the critical decisions? do you remember the "pace" in "the team" when the eu project was running and everything was florishing? that will happen again when the project starts to excell again
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20:02 | christoph_varga | left the channel | |
20:02 | davidak | so if you want to contribute, feel free to take work and see what you can do for the project
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20:03 | derWalter_ | the problem with communicating the progress is, if you think your progress is toxic for the project.... args what are you doing?
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20:03 | morrigan | ...I cannot even parse that sentence
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20:03 | derWalter_ | davidak, apertus claims to be a community project! my question is: IS IT?
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20:03 | kaiserlich | but derWalter_, there was a bunch of people who only worked for the EU project. for the gamma. whose work didn't really help the beta.
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20:03 | derWalter_ | where are the leagal structures which ensures that it is and STAYS?
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20:04 | derWalter_ | kay, the gamma is an apertus project
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20:04 | morrigan | the gamma was an EU project.
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20:04 | derWalter_ | and apertus raised nearly 1 000 000€ from the eu for their gamma project!
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20:04 | derWalter_ | they got some partners on board, but where still managing the process
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20:05 | Bertl | actually the university was
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20:05 | morrigan | was about to say that
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20:05 | derWalter_ | and because the whole project communication was really "closed source" no one in the public knows what happened there and why
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20:05 | derWalter_ | offcially the university was
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20:05 | davidak | derWalter: apertus° is absolutely a community project.
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20:05 | morrigan | not officially
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20:05 | derWalter_ | but what is the legal structure to ensure it is davidak?
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20:06 | kaiserlich | are you asking about maintainership?
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20:06 | Bertl | what are legal structures for communities?
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20:06 | kaiserlich | who maintains this open source project?
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20:06 | derWalter_ | the university of applied arts vienna owned the EU money a privatly owned company ownes the crowdfunding money
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20:06 | derWalter_ | the company is not bind to the associations ruling
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20:06 | davidak | derWalter: the open source license?
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20:06 | morrigan | yes, so what do they have to do with each other again?
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20:06 | morrigan | the open source license.
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20:06 | morrigan | it cannot be revoked
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20:07 | derWalter_ | its not about open source, it is about, is it a community project, if yes, how is the community integrated?
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20:07 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ i tried to answer this above
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20:07 | kaiserlich | did you not see my message?
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20:07 | derWalter_ | i am looking for it, but no.
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20:07 | morrigan | I'm not aware that there are any "legal" structures anywhere to somehow enforce that a project is going to remain FOSS AND will continue to maintain a specific piece of software or hardware
| |
20:07 | kaiserlich | at 21:01
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20:07 | derWalter_ | a legal structre would be: a company of any kind, 100% owned by the association
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20:07 | morrigan | you are free to fork at any time and develop or distribute your own
| |
20:08 | Bertl | well, where possible, we use strong FOSS/OH licenses
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20:08 | Bertl | so they are somewhat viral
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20:08 | derWalter_ | the association has a decision model which makes it possible that a basic member can invoke a process (legaly, not social!) to change the course of the company
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20:09 | derWalter_ | it is not about open source
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20:09 | derWalter_ | it is about the legal power structure
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20:09 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ i think you're coming at this as a crowdfunding member who doesn't just want a camera (like most people) but who wants to get a say in the project somehow, right?
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20:09 | derWalter_ | is the community ruling or not
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20:09 | morrigan | sigh
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20:09 | derWalter_ | well, thats what a community project means :)
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20:09 | morrigan | no
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20:09 | kaiserlich | as said above derWalter_:
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20:09 | kaiserlich | i think you're mixing two things up, derWalter_... i think you're looking at it as if apertus were a company producing stuff steadily and there were a community of users, like e.g. lomography or the impossible project. but right now it's a tiny thing where the "community" is the people getting involved by investing their time, knowledge, energy (and then there are people who just want to buy a camera)
| |
20:10 | derWalter_ | kay, you are getting at it. but you self where quite unhappy with the "management structure" in the project. you remember when we first met in the first district?
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20:10 | morrigan | that is your definition of a FOSS project, coloured by your sociocracy education
| |
20:11 | derWalter_ | we did not have the camera running, that time, but we had it running the other time, when sebastian was sitting next to you, while we interviewd you and you checked with every anserwer you gave us, if it was correct
| |
20:11 | derWalter_ | morrigan, yes, tell me the problem
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20:11 | kaiserlich | yes, derWalter_, i was more of an outsider then, and as said earlier (i think) i get the frustration of not knowing all the inner workings as an outsider (:
| |
20:11 | morrigan | you are implying that he was afraid to give an answer that sebastian wouldn't approve of?
| |
20:11 | morrigan | oO
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20:11 | derWalter_ | you where working HOW many hours per week for the project for HOW many month? and you are calling yourself an outsider?
| |
20:12 | kaiserlich | i changed that by staying involved, or maybe becoming more involved
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20:12 | derWalter_ | yes morrigan
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20:12 | Bertl | kaiserlich: good that se6astian was there to keep you from telling about all that sinister stuff going on ;-)
| |
20:12 | morrigan | you know that this is quite bizarre, right?
| |
20:12 | kaiserlich | lol, Bertl
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20:12 | derWalter_ | Bertl please stop playing it down...
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20:12 | Bertl | no, actually it is quite the comedy
| |
20:12 | derWalter_ | if you would have seen the difference in what she has told us with out and with sebastian .... sigh...
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20:13 | Bertl | I'm not sure where it is going or what the purpose is
| |
20:13 | morrigan | I would check back with him too, probably, simply on the grounds that there are aspects of the project that I am not involved in, and I for myself dislike making an iidot of myself by pretending to be in the know and giving factually incorrect answers
| |
20:13 | morrigan | but that might just be me
| |
20:14 | morrigan | So
| |
20:14 | morrigan | again
| |
20:14 | morrigan | what is your goal here?
| |
20:14 | morrigan | changing the structures to suit your views because you know you are right?
| |
20:14 | Bertl | to advertise the link, I presume?
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20:14 | morrigan | protecting suppressed project members?
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20:14 | morrigan | I'm honestly at a loss now
| |
20:14 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ oh i think i said lots of things in the interview that i also said to you before that! and as said earlier: there's a bunch of stuff that's outdated now. there are other/more people involved now, doing things that only se6astian was doing for the longest time. like Rex0r does lots of communication now
| |
20:14 | davidak | i also don't see what the problem is and why you two are capturing our time we could work on the project…
| |
20:15 | derWalter_ | well, right now i want to find out if i am right here, with my goal of implementing a power structure where a community decision is binding to the apertus company or not. i guess it would not change anything/a lot around here on the daily business level, but it would mean, that there would be at least one
| |
20:15 | morrigan | So it's exercising power.
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20:15 | derWalter_ | official association meeting per year, where every member could vote... or it would mean that there would be a member area, like the lab, where members could decide important stuff
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20:16 | morrigan | you don't want to become involved unless you can impose structures?
| |
20:16 | morrigan | Did I get it right now?
| |
20:16 | derWalter_ | kay that is nice to hear!
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20:16 | derWalter_ | no, that is HOW i become involved
| |
20:16 | derWalter_ | thats my goal
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20:17 | morrigan | To change the way this project is run because you know how it has to be run?
| |
20:17 | derWalter_ | to implement a way, the community can invoke changes
| |
20:17 | kaiserlich | but how are you involved in the project right now?
| |
20:17 | derWalter_ | legaly bound
| |
20:17 | Bertl | look, there are folks who are doing stuff for the project and there are folks who are 'just talking'
| |
20:17 | derWalter_ | nope, i know nothing, i just feel, i followed that feeling and was confronted with knowledge and i am studing now :)
| |
20:17 | kaiserlich | as said above: the community are the people involved. they bring about changes
| |
20:17 | derWalter_ | quit my job and start to study again, because of this
| |
20:17 | Bertl | those who do stuff, decide what they do and when they do it
| |
20:18 | kaiserlich | yeah
| |
20:18 | Bertl | there is all the power you want/need/look for
| |
20:18 | derWalter_ | bertl, but thats a problem :)
| |
20:18 | morrigan | if you don't know and are studying now, then this project is going to be an experiment to test your theory?
| |
20:18 | kaiserlich | but why? that's how open source works
| |
20:18 | derWalter_ | because you leave out all the other opinions
| |
20:18 | Bertl | I wouldn't want anybody to tell me what to work on or how or why\
| |
20:18 | morrigan | same
| |
20:19 | Bertl | if there was a legally binding whatever, which would tell me what I have to work on
| |
20:19 | derWalter_ | like i collect money for apples and then i am going and change my goal to pears, but the people not working on the project are not going to decide and lost all their investment
| |
20:19 | Bertl | I would immediately stop working on the AXIOM and switch to a different project
| |
20:19 | morrigan | then I#d say most of the people here would say fsck it and go work somewhere else and the project would be dead.
| |
20:19 | kaiserlich | but where did the project change its goals?
| |
20:19 | morrigan | it didn't
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20:19 | derWalter_ | not going into it again kay, please read the log
| |
20:19 | derWalter_ | it dit morrigan, please read the log
| |
20:19 | morrigan | I read it, you confused delay with failure to deliver
| |
20:20 | kaiserlich | i read it too
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20:20 | morrigan | you didn't respond to that
| |
20:20 | Bertl | note that strictly speaking there was no delay
| |
20:20 | morrigan | I know
| |
20:20 | morrigan | but for the sake of argument, let it stand
| |
20:20 | derWalter_ | well if you give a time frame and you miss it, whats that?
| |
20:20 | derWalter_ | bertl said 2050 is okay
| |
20:20 | derWalter_ | is that what was originally written in the crowdfunding?
| |
20:20 | morrigan | you do know sarcasm? Happens often in IT people
| |
20:20 | Bertl | where did we give a timeframe and for what exactly?
| |
20:21 | morrigan | again
| |
20:21 | derWalter_ | who decided to spend 25000€ on a CNC which was hardly used?
| |
20:21 | derWalter_ | or a 3d printer
| |
20:21 | derWalter_ | and then arguing that there is so little money left, so there cant be any wages paid?
| |
20:21 | morrigan | can we stay on topic?
| |
20:21 | derWalter_ | and slowing down the project like this?
| |
20:21 | morrigan | WHAT was the change of goal
| |
20:21 | morrigan | no, stay with me
| |
20:21 | derWalter_ | that is the answer to your question
| |
20:22 | morrigan | that is not an answer
| |
20:22 | derWalter_ | that IS the change
| |
20:22 | morrigan | no
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20:22 | derWalter_ | that did not add to developing the camera
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20:22 | derWalter_ | it slowed it down
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20:22 | morrigan | that is evolution in a project
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20:22 | derWalter_ | make it miss its timeframe
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20:22 | morrigan | that
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20:22 | morrigan | is
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20:22 | morrigan | not
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20:22 | morrigan | a
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20:22 | morrigan | change
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20:22 | morrigan | in
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20:22 | derWalter_ | first thing you do when you get money is you go out shopping?
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20:22 | morrigan | goals
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20:22 | derWalter_ | that is missing the goal on purpose
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20:23 | Bertl | okay, maybe let's start with getting the facts right
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20:23 | morrigan | nonsense, sorry
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20:23 | Bertl | and let's start with the crowd funding _again_
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20:23 | morrigan | you claim to know project managemnt and don't have the definitions straight
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20:23 | derWalter_ | if other voices would have the power to veto this... i mean, in a community project, if we want to spend 25 000€ shouldnt we ASK the community? present our arguments and hear other voices?
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20:23 | Bertl | we crowd funded the development of the axiom Beta, right? all agree there?
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20:23 | morrigan | yep
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20:23 | derWalter_ | shouldnt we listen to other opionions?
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20:23 | davidak | Bertl: yes.
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20:24 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ can you let Bertl talk, please
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20:24 | derWalter_ | shouldnt we gather as much as "wisedom&knowledge" for our decisions? aspecially in this price range?
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20:24 | kaiserlich | hello
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20:24 | Bertl | we gave a rough timeframe where we 'thought' we would be able to accomplish this development
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20:24 | derWalter_ | but 2050?
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20:24 | Bertl | we also proposed a design
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20:25 | Bertl | the proposed design was almost finished when the crowd funding was over, and it is also publicly available (at least I think so, not sure as we never actually tested it)
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20:26 | Bertl | but for sure I can send you the design files, if that helps
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20:26 | Bertl | during the crowd funding phase, we got a huge amount of input from 'the community'
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20:26 | derWalter_ | not interessted in technical details regarding implementing the community in decisions for spendings over a certain amount of money.
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20:26 | Bertl | which shaped the design for the AXIOM Beta ... i.e. made it more modular
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20:27 | derWalter_ | well, which is a good thing IN THE LONG RUN :)
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20:27 | Bertl | and basically with every iteration, we also released all the designs for the then 'current' BETA
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20:28 | Bertl | naturally, we cannot release designs for the Beta as it will be in a few years from now
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20:28 | Bertl | (simply because we are not time travelers :)
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20:28 | Bertl | so, to reiterate:
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20:28 | derWalter_ | why was there never a feature freeze?
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20:29 | derWalter_ | to release the first batch in large volume=
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20:29 | Bertl | because the Beta was designed (and advertized) to evolve and never become obsolete, remeber?
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20:29 | Bertl | *remember
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20:29 | derWalter_ | and then generate more momentum? cause the development is continuing any ways
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20:29 | derWalter_ | questions like this would have been raised i guess :)
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20:30 | Bertl | they were not raised back then, sorry to disappoint
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20:30 | derWalter_ | cause i was not asked :)
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20:30 | morrigan | I was about to say, I don't remember this being a problem for anyone
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20:30 | morrigan | I don't remember you being there even
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20:31 | derWalter_ | where was this desicion made?
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20:31 | Bertl | what decision?
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20:31 | derWalter_ | it was never published, i was never invited
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20:32 | derWalter_ | @morrigan
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20:32 | derWalter_ | on the team page, you can find me
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20:32 | derWalter_ | https://www.apertus.org/user/615
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20:32 | morrigan | no one ever came up with the idea of a feature freze, so why would it have become a subject for discussion?
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20:32 | derWalter_ | i was not invited, as part of the team
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20:32 | Bertl | derWalter_: but let me ask you a provocative question now, and maybe you can answer it:
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20:32 | morrigan | what do you mean, invited?
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20:33 | kaiserlich | he means to a meeting where this decision was made
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20:33 | derWalter_ | morrigan, thats the thing, i would just like to make decision making "oublic" at least to members of people who officially want to contribute their opinion
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20:33 | morrigan | there was no decision because no one raised the question
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20:33 | derWalter_ | that such things get into the process
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20:34 | Bertl | how do you intent to compensate us for the huge amount of time we are wasting right now ... which could have been better used for AXIOM development?
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20:34 | derWalter_ | that as much knowledge and good ideas can influcence the way of apertus
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20:34 | morrigan | knowledge, sure
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20:34 | derWalter_ | Bertl, you can always leave, it is a doocracy
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20:34 | Bertl | and how do you explain that to the community?
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20:34 | morrigan | right.
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20:34 | derWalter_ | you decide about what you do, when and where
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20:34 | morrigan | I think I see the real problem here
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20:34 | derWalter_ | and that is the point
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20:35 | derWalter_ | and who is the "community"
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20:35 | Bertl | okay, well, in this case, I'm off to dinner ...
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20:35 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ people contribute all the time, and their opinions influence the direction in which the project goes. but it's not just anyone who has an opinion(tm) but people who are somehow involved in the project. as said before: who invest their time & energy. and anyone can do that
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20:35 | derWalter_ | no, tbh, i am trying to do good here
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20:35 | Bertl | changed nick to: Bertl_oO
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20:35 | derWalter_ | but on what legal structure kaiserlich
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20:35 | morrigan | you come from a non-technical background and have not a really firm grasp on the mindset of an engineer
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20:35 | kaiserlich | this
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20:36 | morrigan | let me make it plain then
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20:36 | derWalter_ | everyone puts in time and money but has nothing to say when the project becomes serious
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20:36 | kaiserlich | derWalter_ check out e.g. github.com - lots of open source projects there
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20:36 | derWalter_ | or when LARGE amounts of money are getting spent
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20:36 | kaiserlich | i'm not talking about crowdfunders
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20:36 | derWalter_ | have a nice one Bertl!
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20:36 | kaiserlich | i already explained that there are 2 ways to look at "community"
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20:37 | kaiserlich | you are coming at this from a users or would-be users perspective
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20:37 | morrigan | we do this in our spare time. Start with project management, deadlines, feature freezes and other buzzwords you need, and you will not get far
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20:37 | kaiserlich | *user's
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20:37 | morrigan | this is not a company
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20:38 | morrigan | it's not run like a company.
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20:38 | kaiserlich | i actually think project management is cool! :D but it doesn't work well in a structure that is not a company
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20:38 | kaiserlich | because people come and go
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20:38 | kaiserlich | have more and less amounts of time to spend on tasks
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20:38 | morrigan | yep
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20:39 | kaiserlich | i'm organising two events now and while we can set ourselves certain deadlines and certain organisers can volunteer for certain tasks, we cannot do proper project management
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20:39 | kaiserlich | i should add: two community events. events small teams organise in their free time
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20:40 | morrigan | that's not the sort of project management he means.
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20:40 | derWalter_ | Good night everyone, thanks for sharing your time and listening to our opinions, if some one of you is interessted in pushing the boat into the direction of more direct democracy and community involvment, let us know. we would like to develop a futureproof concept, try it and improve our all life :)
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20:41 | kaiserlich | morrigan oh, i thought it was? clear timelines and structure on who does what etc.
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20:41 | morrigan | sigh
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20:41 | morrigan | right.
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20:42 | morrigan | so much for trying to actually address this
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20:43 | davidak | derWalter: you asked where the community can decide things. right after the crowdfunding there where multiple polls what sensors people want and such technical details. then the team started to work creating the Beta, buying equiptment they need like the CNC and components. i trust Bertl and se6astian (they do a lot of work) to make the right decisions and make suggestions where i see potential to improve.
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20:43 | davidak | and like you heard in the team meeting, there was also a poll about the OLPF
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20:44 | morrigan | I think we are a point already where you shouldn't confuse his opinion with facts, but maybe I'm jsut cranky.
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20:44 | davidak | so the community has always the opportunity to contribute and decide
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20:48 | morrigan | Q.e.d
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22:15 | se6astian | good night
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23:00 | Bertl_oO | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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