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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/02/16

Timezone: UTC


00:42
troy_s
Bertl: I think, if you can, writing a script for the capture would be prudent.
00:43
troy_s
Bertl: We could do a few things so that we can capture an ideal image.
00:43
troy_s
Bertl: A) Generate the scanin command and examine the white swatch to get better exposure (no more guessing)
00:43
troy_s
Bertl: B) Output the mean error / DE error.
00:44
troy_s
Bertl: C) immediately identify swatches that are erroring out with high values and let seb (or you) try to figure out why.
00:44
troy_s
etc. etc.
00:44
troy_s
Just run the script, update the shoot, etc.
01:07
gwelkind
left the channel
01:23
Bertl
yeah, I have a number of ideas how to do this or maybe something even more sophisticated
01:23
Bertl
but I still need to figure out what that error actually means
01:25
Bertl
obviously it isn't related to the noise within the color areas, so that leaves illumination (my main suspect) and linearity/matrix problems
01:25
troy_s
Bertl: It doesn't matter what it means
01:26
troy_s
Bertl: It means that the lighting / chart is off.
01:26
troy_s
Bertl: Given that the image is sampled from a region etc.
01:26
Bertl
ATM, I do not have the time and means to investigate it further, I have to get the image pipeline finished first
01:26
troy_s
It _could_ be related to noise, but my gut says that it is less of an issue.
01:26
troy_s
(as in the noise contaminating the color reading average)
01:26
Bertl
no, it cannot
01:26
troy_s
Bertl: yep.
01:26
Bertl
because the perfect chart has no noise at all
01:26
troy_s
I'm pretty confident that the issue is the crap photos
01:27
troy_s
Bertl: That doesn't mean that noise isn't impacting the matrix.
01:27
Bertl
and results in the same/similar mean error
01:27
troy_s
Bertl: Example - noise happens quite badly in the red spectrum on a lot of sensors (reds / magenta)
01:27
Bertl
yes, but there simply _is_no_noise_ in the perfect chart images :)
01:27
troy_s
Bertl: So of course that _could_ be weighting the swatches in an undesirable fashion. But again, I say we will know more when we can get some solid daylight exposures.
01:27
troy_s
Bertl: There is.
01:28
troy_s
Bertl: It's blurred and buried.
01:28
Bertl
nope
01:28
Bertl
the perfect charts are artificially created
01:28
Bertl
i.e. they are 'painted'
01:28
troy_s
Bertl: You are missing my point. You've pulled from pixels right? Those pixels have noise. Or rather... let's call it irregular firing sensels
01:28
troy_s
Yes I know that.
01:28
troy_s
But the sensels themselves are being filled up with data of some sort and some of that is irregular.
01:29
troy_s
Again though... I'll email the core color nerd group here and we can see if we can get a decent matrix.
01:29
Bertl
noise is deviation from a normal
01:29
Bertl
in the perfect chart, every pixel in one are is exactly the same color
01:30
Bertl
*area
01:30
Bertl
so there is no deviation from the mean, i.e. no noise
01:31
Bertl
differences across color areas cannot be accounted as noise, they are 'the profile'
01:31
Bertl
so whatever the mean error means, it isn't related to pixel noise :)
01:33
Bertl
but yes, we can do it somewhat interactive i.e. chasing for the smallest number reported by the tool without knowing why, how or what it means
01:33
Bertl
(I will suggest to do so to sebastian)
01:34
Bertl
another thing we could do very easily (and interactive) is to check for uniform illumination
01:34
troy_s
Bertl: You don't want a single pixel. That's awful.
01:34
troy_s
Bertl: You want a median average of the whole swatch. Which is why noise plays a role.
01:34
Bertl
i.e. I can easily wrap up a tool which splits the sensor into 3x3 or 4x4 areas
01:35
troy_s
The uniform illumination is deadly easy to check with the TI3 chart.
01:35
Bertl
yes, but the tools report the same mean/peak errors on 'single pixel' charts
01:35
troy_s
File rather. A hutch is better of course because it has white slots around the image so you can EASILY tell based on the RGB sampled values.
01:35
troy_s
Bertl: No it averages the swatch. Look at diag.tif
01:36
troy_s
Bertl: It will illustrate how much of the swatch it is meaning / averaging.
01:36
Bertl
look at one of the 'perfect' charts and calculate the mean/dev of a single area
01:36
troy_s
Bertl: At any rate... I should get the VNG code done then we are a step ahead.
01:36
troy_s
Bertl: Sure... but we don't want that.
01:37
troy_s
Bertl: We want the _whole_ swatch sampled using various pixels.
01:37
troy_s
Bertl: Otherwise we have no hope of getting the averaged 'what color is the sensor seeing'
01:37
Bertl
I agree, but what I'm saying is that even with this, the results are the same
01:37
troy_s
Bertl: The results suck because of the captures that's obvious.
01:37
Bertl
yes, but not because of the noise :)
01:37
troy_s
Bertl: Hopefully we can do better.
01:37
troy_s
Bertl: No. I only said that noise will play a role, but rather I'm not too concerned about noise at the moment.
01:37
troy_s
(at all)
01:38
troy_s
I want to see a DE2000 of 3 or less.
01:38
troy_s
(Less obviously, but at this point it seems like a field goal from 200 yards away)
01:38
Bertl
yes, at the beginning I though the unusually high FPN causes the calibration tools to go crazy
01:38
Bertl
*thought
01:38
troy_s
I'm not sure. The problem with a matrix error is that
01:38
troy_s
it is telling us the colors simply aren't fitting
01:38
Bertl
that's why I created the perfect charts in the first place
01:38
Bertl
to verify this
01:39
troy_s
As in if you think of the colors as existing in fixed points in 3D cartesian space, the 'ideals' simply cannot be fit against what we are gathering.
01:39
Bertl
and as they give the very same results as the unmodified images (with heavy FPN) the noise is not to blame for the odd results
01:39
troy_s
The errors are ridiculously high.
01:39
troy_s
(A good example are the profiles danieeel and I created today off of his Hutch - they come in at 3.4 average DE2000 and that is with a clearly unevenly lit chart.
01:40
troy_s
(they were slightly better to be fair. SLIGHTLY)
01:40
troy_s
(12 average DE on the underexposed chart versus 20)
01:40
troy_s
Still super crap.
01:40
Bertl
which brings us back to the question, why are the calibration results so horrible with the IT8 and CMV12k?
01:40
troy_s
10 is "throw the thing away" bad.
01:41
Bertl
is the IT8 simply the wrong chart?
01:41
troy_s
Bertl: I'm going to say my guess is the absolutely crap samples. The tungsten is not working with the shift present on the sensor. At all.
01:41
Bertl
what about the daylight chart I did?
01:41
troy_s
The sensor has a HEAVY skew to reds.
01:41
troy_s
HEAVY
01:41
troy_s
Is there a way we can nerf the sensitivity of the various gains?
01:42
troy_s
I can give you a rough set of values to undercrank the green and blue.
01:42
troy_s
(The reality is that they are SO far apart that the green will fill up so fast that it will be spilling into the blue and red anyways causing nasty fringing)
01:42
Bertl
according to the (yet released) cmosis documentation there is no individual gain
01:42
troy_s
Your daylight was way underexposed last time I looked at it.
01:42
troy_s
I can look again.
01:43
troy_s
I didn't see a significant gain on the daylight. What image was it again?
01:43
Bertl
according to the spectral response, the R/G/B should be almost identical (in Absolut QE %)
01:44
troy_s
Huh?
01:44
troy_s
That's impossible.
01:44
troy_s
Green sits way higher on luminance.
01:44
troy_s
That is a ridiculous statement from what I can see.
01:44
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/RAW/scene_daylight_211ms_c2.png
01:44
troy_s
(Should go G, B, R.)
01:44
troy_s
Bertl: Is that a 16 bit PNG?
01:45
Bertl
maybe, but probably not, the raws are there
01:45
troy_s
(very underexposed.)
01:45
troy_s
Looking.
01:45
Bertl
yes, but in this case the red is clearly not dominant
01:45
troy_s
Yes.
01:46
Bertl
btw QE = quantum efficiency
01:46
Bertl
i.e. photon -> electron conversion
01:46
troy_s
Which is why I'm suggesting daylight is mandatory at this point. I can't be bothered with tungsten at all (and heaven knows it might have an adverse effect in tungsten light after bradford shift)
01:46
troy_s
Bertl: Oh that doesn't help us here.
01:47
troy_s
Bertl: That's just saying that "Whatever the filters are set to will fill up with each photon smoothly"
01:48
Bertl
it basically means that a blue photon in the 450 +/- 20nm range will result in the same number of electrons as a red with 620 +/0 20nm
01:48
troy_s
Yep
01:48
troy_s
But wider than that apparent range :)
01:48
troy_s
(Hence my concern with the filters)
01:49
Bertl
now clearly green is perceived as brighter and blue as darker, but for linearity and sensor gain that doesn't matter
01:49
troy_s
Yep.
01:49
troy_s
But the filter range does.
01:50
troy_s
(Think if we had filters that were all at strange angles of hue)
01:50
Bertl
I presume you have the spectral response chart
01:50
troy_s
(green and blue rotated around to red)
01:50
troy_s
I've seen the curves on the tungsten light
01:50
troy_s
Scares me.
01:50
Bertl
no, the ones from cmosis I mean
01:51
Bertl
https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-hardware/blob/master/Datasheets/datasheet_CMV12000%20v1.12.pdf
01:51
Bertl
(page 60)
01:52
Bertl
the only additional filter is the IR/UV cutoff
01:52
Bertl
(which granted, might be of bad quality)
01:53
troy_s
Bertl: What's the imagemagick perspective command in order of corners?
01:53
Bertl
left top, right top, right bottom, left bottom
01:53
Bertl
pairs of 'source' 'destination'
01:54
Bertl
i.e. LT-s LT-d RT-s RT-d RB-s RB-d LB-s LB-d
01:54
troy_s
Gotcha
01:54
troy_s
-distort Perspective is all I need.
02:00
troy_s
Bertl: Your convert isn't working on convert \( -size 4096x3072 -depth 16 gray:IT8-tungsten-halogen-Run03-9.1.2014-15ms.raw16 \) \( -clone 0 -crop -1-1 \) \( -clone 0 -crop -1+0 \) \( -clone 0 -crop +0-1 \) -sample 2048x1536 \( -clone 0,1 -average \) -delete 0,1 +swap -combine c-IT8-tungsten-15ms.tiff
02:00
troy_s
Gree
02:00
troy_s
ON your scene raw file
02:01
Bertl
not working in what way?
02:01
troy_s
Getting unexpected EOF
02:02
Bertl
what does 'file scene.raw' say?
02:02
troy_s
?
02:03
Bertl
the command 'file' applied to the raw file you have
02:03
troy_s
It's your scene_daylight_211
02:03
troy_s
(.raw.xy
02:03
Bertl
there you go, unpack it first
02:03
troy_s
LOL
02:03
troy_s
compressed
02:03
troy_s
Hilarious... forgot. My bad.
02:16
troy_s
Bertl: Average error 13 on daylight.
02:17
Bertl
so almost same shit as with tungsten
02:17
troy_s
Average DE 8.6
02:17
troy_s
Best so far.
02:17
troy_s
(Much better than tungsten, for a super underexposed image.
02:18
troy_s
Bertl: And I can now say noise is playing a larger role.
02:18
troy_s
Bertl: Or medium role.
02:19
troy_s
(looking at the converted image.)
02:19
troy_s
(It is definitely tinting the achromatic values)
02:19
troy_s
Bertl: But that is probably exposure noise due to underexposure.
02:31
troy_s
Bertl: It gives me confidence that a well exposed daylight will give us good results.
02:32
Bertl
we'll se :)
02:32
Bertl
*see
02:38
troy_s
8.51
02:38
troy_s
Lowest yet.
02:38
troy_s
(c instead of c2 - EVERY slightly higher exposure)
06:46
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
06:49
gwelkind
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06:55
gwelkind
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07:28
gwelkind
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10:37
philippej
joined the channel
10:39
philippej
for quicker testing, since there is built in linux, it would of course be great to have argyll inside the camera. Then with some command line, you'd get the DE number directly. And at a later stage a web interface :-) But I understand it's not really the priority for now
10:40
philippej
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11:30
gwelkind
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12:12
Bertl
morning folks!
15:45
s3bastian
joined the channel
15:45
s3bastian
good evening
15:52
Bertl
evening s3bastian!
16:25
se6astian_
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16:26
s3bastian
left the channel
17:55
troy_s
herro
17:55
Bertl
herro troy_s!
17:55
troy_s
Bertl: Still wonder about PCIe for sensor board. It just can't possibly be firm enough.
17:55
Bertl
how so?
17:56
troy_s
Perhaps a machined box around each, with PCIe exposed?
17:56
troy_s
Well I just remember the days of backfocus
17:56
Bertl
not that I think that PCIe is the optimal way to go
17:56
troy_s
And those things would go out of whack EVERY four shots
17:57
Bertl
no idea what 'the days of backfocus' are :)
17:57
troy_s
And _those_ were A) SIGNIFICANTLY smaller B) More rigid
17:57
troy_s
Adjust the planes between sensor and lens
17:57
troy_s
So that sensor, on a large PCIe is going to suffer from plane alignment
17:58
troy_s
Or wiggle
17:58
troy_s
Or ever so teeny slightly off
17:58
Bertl
how so? it will be screwed to the lens mount?
17:59
troy_s
Even machined screwed would worry me. The frame of the housing will torque at different rates to the flange.
17:59
troy_s
Anyways... it worries me.
17:59
troy_s
Enough said.
18:00
Bertl
what would be your suggestion?
18:00
troy_s
Not worry about swapping sensors (I am -1 on modularity to be honest.)
18:01
troy_s
I would rather the camera perform focus as best as it can than be able to swap sensors.
18:01
Bertl
well, it has to be screwed on somewhere and connected somehow
18:01
Bertl
even in completely non modular designs, no?
18:01
troy_s
Yes.
18:01
troy_s
My only thought was that PCIe has two points of torque
18:02
troy_s
The foo-to-behind flange (most important)
18:02
troy_s
And foo-to-PCIe
18:02
troy_s
If those torque at different rates (how can they not?) that sensor board will pretzel in the most subtle way
18:03
troy_s
and that could end with a catastrophic effect on a device designed for imaging.
18:04
troy_s
(Whenever I read about modular I read astronaut architecture - designing for contexts that probability dictates will never happen)
18:06
troy_s
Modular requires an ecosystem. The audience that is keen to design boards and flip flop elements and such is, in the great archetype coordinate system in the sky, a vast matrix transform away from a (estimated!) archetype keen on imaging and cinema.
18:06
troy_s
How many times have you used the AMR slot on your motherboard?
18:07
Bertl
I don't have one and I never wanted a board with one
18:08
troy_s
I just worry that modularity comes with tradeoffs (all design does of course) and I wonder about the tradeoffs in this context.
18:08
troy_s
Given the audience.
18:08
Bertl
but I use the PCI express slots a lot, on both PC and laptop :)
18:08
troy_s
Yes but you are a nerd beyond all mere mortals as well.
18:09
troy_s
Last time I checked Apple's computers were destroying all generic vendors in terms of ratios, so a reasonable analogy can be had there.
18:09
troy_s
But on point, that sensor mount has to be butch as hell.
18:10
troy_s
And the flange to sensor mount has to be precise and unwarpable. Doubly if this thing takes on handheld shapes.
18:10
Bertl
or just moving around with the lens mount :)
18:10
troy_s
Sure. Scary.
18:11
troy_s
But yes of course.
18:12
troy_s
(And I have to wonder how many of the voters and proponents of modular systems actually engage in projects)
18:13
troy_s
(Random voting in is random noise out under the seductive illusion of information)
18:13
troy_s
(Sociology 101 leaking out)
18:17
troy_s
Bertl: What is your current short range goal?
18:18
Bertl
we are preparing for a conference in germany next week
18:18
Bertl
the short range goal is to get the image pipeline finalized
18:18
Bertl
including the color correction matrix
18:19
troy_s
Won't happen with what we have.
18:19
Bertl
so that live HDMI out doesn't look ugly as hell
18:19
troy_s
I can fudge one (an image)
18:19
troy_s
But the images I have are mostly junk.
18:19
troy_s
(Se6's charts look blurry as hell)
18:19
troy_s
Want me to try and fudge one?
18:19
troy_s
The real issue is exposure is stinky too.
18:20
Bertl
yes, sure, I'm fine with any matrix to test with atm
18:20
troy_s
You don't have a chart do you?
18:23
Bertl
nope, no chart here at all
18:23
Bertl
but se6astian_ has two and can take images I guess
18:24
troy_s
I can try the existings.
18:40
gwelkind
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19:50
gwelkind
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19:59
gwelkind
joined the channel
20:19
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
20:20
troy_s
Bertl: Drat. Need math help.
20:45
troy_s
gwelkind: Greets.
21:39
gwelkind
left the channel
21:57
troy_s
se6astian_: You here?
22:02
se6astian_
yes
22:03
se6astian_
but only for a moment more :)
22:03
troy_s
se6astian_: What's the exposure of those images in you rpack?
22:03
troy_s
se6astian_: If you could do me a favour and list in a text file or something
22:04
troy_s
se6astian_: Next shot set
22:04
troy_s
se6astian_: What middle grey exposure is reading (from a light meter) or such
22:04
troy_s
se6astian_: So that I have some reference as to what is one stop hot etc.
22:04
se6astian_
since I had no realtime feedback at the time I did a 1EV increase exposure sequence
22:04
troy_s
Yes
22:04
troy_s
That's what I thought.
22:04
troy_s
So did you have an idea where baseline middle grey average exposure was?
22:04
se6astian_
not really
22:05
troy_s
se6astian_: Good. I thought I was worried a bit when you said "So you changed your mind?"
22:05
se6astian_
the rows main purpose was that there should be at least a few shots ending up in a usable range
22:05
troy_s
se6astian_: I think that the 8-14ms range is probably about a stop hot.
22:05
troy_s
yep
22:05
troy_s
And there was.
22:06
troy_s
The problem is that the range we really need is a small window of that lot
22:06
troy_s
So hopefully we can figure out with live HDMI a better shot set
22:06
se6astian_
yes, hope so too
22:06
troy_s
se6astian_: NO chance of a daylight set with refined exposures between now and Berlin?
22:06
se6astian_
I will try what I can
22:07
troy_s
se6astian_: Because it would be a crying shame if you guys don't have a proper matrix.
22:07
troy_s
se6astian_: That at least looks alpha, not ... WTF
22:07
troy_s
lol
22:07
se6astian_
but I need to pick up equipment for Berlin and print business cards, etc. tomorrow
22:07
troy_s
I've got a matrix that is pretty far out of whack (DE2k of 8.5 which is our best yet)
22:07
troy_s
Crappers.
22:07
se6astian_
well better than nothing I would say
22:07
troy_s
Well... if you can, I'll do my best to get a matrix out the door.
22:08
troy_s
se6astian_: I have OCIO working now with Blender and other such OCIO enabled apps so evaluation is quick.
22:08
se6astian_
great
22:08
troy_s
8.5 is not better than nothing. Looks ... nightmare.
22:08
troy_s
It's got hyper saturated elements.
22:08
se6astian_
well currently we have no matrix and still output a HDMI signal, I doubt it will get worse than that
22:08
troy_s
Notably as we'd expect, in reds.
22:08
troy_s
(Probably some whack filter / tungsten issue)
22:08
troy_s
Yep.
22:10
se6astian_
also I need to get lucky with weather/sunlight
22:10
se6astian_
but lets see
22:10
se6astian_
ok, gotta go afk for a bit
22:10
slikdigit
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22:11
troy_s
se6astian_: Even cloud would be good enough here to evaluate.
22:11
troy_s
se6astian_: Whatever we can get.
22:11
troy_s
se6astian_: Quick request... shoot the chart then pull the chart and show the background generic scene too.)
22:15
slikdigit
o/ troy_s!
22:15
troy_s
slikdigit: LOL. Howdy.
22:15
troy_s
slikdigit: How you doing?
22:16
slikdigit
good! I'm gonna try to go to lgm this year, was wondering if apertus would be at lgm
22:17
troy_s
Betting not.
22:17
troy_s
But who knows. se6astian_ just ran out. You can ask him.
22:17
slikdigit
how are you?
22:17
troy_s
slikdigit: Hanging in there. Wasted way more time trying to get a decent profile out of the camera than I'd have wanted.
22:18
troy_s
slikdigit: Rather have worked more on the lab software.
22:20
troy_s
Wish Gabe were around... he'd likely be able to chip in.
22:21
slikdigit
lab as in the color space?
22:21
slikdigit
or laboratory
22:22
slikdigit
I'm refactoring some code to make it oo (basically because after writing it I found out it needs to be oo for easy extending)
22:30
slikdigit
so, troy_s, the camera you are making a profile for is an apertus axiom?
22:33
gwelkind
joined the channel
22:34
se6astian_
hi slikdigit, before I had out to bed, we likely wont be at LGM
22:35
slikdigit
thanks se6astian_ :) gnight, hope you are anyway ;)
22:35
se6astian_
but we will be in Berlin on Thursday
22:37
se6astian_
also with the prototype
22:37
se6astian_
https://www.apertus.org/berlin-2014
22:37
slikdigit
cool! if I make it this year I would love to see it
22:38
se6astian_
troy_s, cloud cover noted, I will see what I can do
22:38
se6astian_
good night
22:38
se6astian_
left the channel
22:43
troy_s
slikdigit: Trying to. Yes. Attempting to profile the rather alpha-images.
22:44
troy_s
slikdigit: Are you familiar with color management at all?
22:44
troy_s
slikdigit: (And Lab as in Labratory)
22:45
slikdigit
only as much as you'd expect an end user of blender to be; I'm familiar with some of the concpets, and I've *seen* some of the math, but not really studied it or coded for it
22:45
slikdigit
so I don't even 'know enough to be dangerous'
22:46
slikdigit
I know enough to be scared by it and be glad things mostly work by themselves
22:47
slikdigit
I'm not typically mixing blender renders and footage in different color spaces either, so things are pretty straightforward
22:48
slikdigit
so, I guess there is more than one prototype camera built so far?
22:50
slikdigit
I'm reading the alpha page right now
23:17
troy_s
slikdigit: Damn you didn't page me.
23:18
troy_s
I don't get notifications if you don't page. Makes it hard to do a realtime chat. LOL.
23:18
slikdigit
ah, well, I usually only page if I have an expectation that chat is gonna be realtime
23:18
slikdigit
troy_s: ;)
23:18
troy_s
slikdigit: Fail point one, especially in Blender, color _does not_ work by itself mostly. Especially in Blender, some horrible choices have been made and it is a mess.
23:19
slikdigit
but I'm usually content to have it stagerred
23:19
troy_s
Fair chance right now for that realtime thing. LOL
23:19
troy_s
Good to see you here though.
23:19
gwelkind
left the channel
23:19
troy_s
Very small group of interested peeps. Some unique experience across the range.
23:20
troy_s
slikdigit: In a future hope, I'd really hope you take it upon yourself to learn the concepts of color. I'd be happy to start up an email exchange with you that you can back and forth with me on things.
23:20
troy_s
slikdigit: My best hope is that _more_ peeps (especially the respected ones) learn more about it so that the wave of "Oh god that's broken" has more force behind it.
23:21
troy_s
slikdigit: Even more importantly is when they have rather massive projects that they work on and ignore how the pixels end up. ;)
23:23
slikdigit
heh, really couldn't say- except things seem to work much better for me now than before, so maybe those problems are already fixed?
23:23
troy_s
slikdigit: Sometimes you have to know enough to appreciate the problem.
23:24
troy_s
slikdigit: A good example that I'm pretty sure you have negotiated is the idea of going from a curved color space to linearized data.
23:24
troy_s
slikdigit: Some can't even see the errors when painting in a curved one. You've probably seen it and know why linearized data is the _only_ way to combine colors based on real-world physics.
23:25
troy_s
slikdigit: But before you learned that, your 'good enough' level was below the knowledge.
23:25
slikdigit
true true
23:26
troy_s
slikdigit: Anyways... my point is that color is _not_ complex, it's actually deadly simple. More than simple for a brain like yours. The bigger issue is confusion, bad or incorrect 'information' from people, and a plethora of other things.
23:26
troy_s
slikdigit: It's roughly like a confused rabble learning from itself.
23:26
troy_s
Culturally toxic.
23:27
slikdigit
most people are self taught I think around blender, so there tends to be a bit of that, yes
23:27
troy_s
I actually enjoy trying to explain things too, as it personally leads me to greater understanding.
23:28
troy_s
(the questions can often force you to think about things in ways you thought you understood things, but reveal gaps.)
23:28
troy_s
Yep totally. But when a small battle is won it leads to much greater win.
23:28
slikdigit
however, I think it does work out in the long term (even if it causes problem in medium or short term) as mistakes tend to 'average out' and good ideas survive longer
23:28
troy_s
(See the whole ToS thing where the F65 footage couldn't be ingested correctly.)
23:28
slikdigit
ah, I was unaware of that
23:28
troy_s
(I ended up having to do a conversion manually and eventually B came around and OCIO landed almost immediately.)
23:29
troy_s
Check the comments of the ToS blog. There's a post where Gez says "This is continuing on the blender-vfx list.)
23:29
slikdigit
maybe OCIO takes care of many issues without much effort on blender side?
23:29
troy_s
It _can_
23:29
troy_s
And _does_
23:29
troy_s
but there are some HUGE holes that need addressing.
23:29
troy_s
(and sadly ignorance is letting them carry on)
23:29
troy_s
It's an interesting subject once you wrap your head around it.
23:30
gwelkind
joined the channel
23:30
troy_s
And as an arty farty fool, i can't help focus on it when it comes to creating work. It's so fundamentally critical to what your audience sees. From posters to videos to images to you name it.
23:31
troy_s
(It is a little disheartening when some of the respected leaders share views that are simply _wrong_ and lead to things not being fixed.)
23:31
troy_s
The color wheel is a big one for example.
23:32
slikdigit
well, maybe I'll study this stuff once
23:32
troy_s
I really wish you would.
23:32
slikdigit
what's a good text/resource?
23:32
troy_s
Take it slowly.
23:32
troy_s
via an email.
23:32
troy_s
For me, having walked probably 1% of the whole path
23:32
troy_s
I can say that I wish I had someone around me to ask questions to.
23:32
troy_s
I eventually found a good lot of them
23:32
troy_s
and even had to ask Mark Fairchild himself for an explanation (he now actually replies to my emails!)
23:32
slikdigit
any good textbooks?
23:32
troy_s
They are all pretty ... well I'd use a chess analogy
23:32
slikdigit
I think that's one of the issues for many people
23:33
troy_s
In chess, many people get discouraged when the program kicks their ass at level 1.
23:33
slikdigit
yeah
23:33
troy_s
Which shows you how much of a gap their is between their knowledge and even _beginner_ chess.
23:33
slikdigit
I think that's an issue for people getting into this stuff
23:33
troy_s
So most books tend to be at that same sort of 'beginner' level, which is still leagues above the vast bulk of artists.
23:34
troy_s
(JW asked meto do a CGcookie thing, but sadly shows have gotten in the way. I do hack away on The Hitchiker's Guide to Color for Digital Artists a bit at a time.)
23:34
troy_s
Honestly though... the best way to learn is through those ancient dialectics.
23:34
troy_s
Chat with people.
23:34
troy_s
(And simply embrace how damn important it is enough to fuel your focus and learning.)
23:35
troy_s
To be honest, once you learn the _basics_ the rest is all pretty damn easy to wrap your head around.
23:35
troy_s
(and much of those basics are so mind ripping that you realize how fuddled much of it is)
23:35
troy_s
slikdigit: How's Tube?
23:38
slikdigit
good, though our colors are probably all wrong :P
23:38
slikdigit
I'll just make it black and white (0 and 1)
23:38
slikdigit
no greys!
23:38
slikdigit
character animation will likely be completely done in march
23:38
slikdigit
nicolo is our main environment artist so there is a bit of a bottleneck there
23:38
slikdigit
since without finished textures we can't call lighting 'final'
23:38
slikdigit
but it gets constantly better
23:38
troy_s
You realize that even Black and White has color management? :)
23:38
troy_s
Bottlenecks stink.
23:38
slikdigit
that's why I avoid grey
23:39
troy_s
LOL
23:39
troy_s
LOL
23:39
slikdigit
maybe I'll drop white too...
23:39
slikdigit
oh shit! looks like I just finished tube ;)
23:39
troy_s
I really hope you will start an email chat with me on color. I think that asking questions from an artist vantage are _huge_, and so much of what I originally had issues with I've forgotten.
23:39
troy_s
Fresh questions are great.
23:40
troy_s
Try eyes closed.
23:40
troy_s
Can't wait to see how the project ends up.
23:40
troy_s
Rather interesting.
23:40
slikdigit
cool, thanks
23:41
troy_s
So what brings you here?
23:42
slikdigit
well, fateh is planning a documentary project, and we got curious as to the status of apertus project
23:42
troy_s
Oh how exciting.
23:43
slikdigit
so I started reading up on it
23:43
troy_s
I'd love to shoot some docs again. Been so long.
23:43
troy_s
Having a real life and a real job since independent life challenges all of that.
23:43
troy_s
There's a prototype currently.
23:43
troy_s
And it takes still pictures.
23:44
slikdigit
title 'invisible city' topic is about free software and exploring what that means in context of actual people lives
23:44
troy_s
And Herbert just got HDMI downconversion working... no profile yet thanks to idiot boy here and the images so there's no real Rec.709 output. :(
23:44
slikdigit
so there would be a real 'cool factor' if we could use an open camera such as apertus
23:45
slikdigit
we are still in the 'get funding' stage
23:45
troy_s
slikdigit: Good peeps here. Better than many gatherings.
23:45
troy_s
slikdigit: I was rather skeptical at first, but Herb's a rockstar.
23:45
slikdigit
heh, awesome.
23:45
troy_s
slikdigit: And there are some rather big brainer types.
23:46
slikdigit
I've been following the project from a distance for a while
23:46
troy_s
slikdigit: So I'd think that it is the first sort of project that I think stands a hope in hell.
23:46
troy_s
slikdigit: As you know, there's many different opinions that can pull designs in various ways.
23:46
troy_s
Thus far, most decisions seem pretty reasonable and well thought out.
23:46
troy_s
And it hasn't bitten off more than it can chew yet.
23:46
troy_s
Which is always positive.