23:00 | Bertl | up to the point where one channel is overexposed, the linear data is perfect
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23:00 | Bertl | and after that point, we just don't have any data
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23:00 | troy_s | Except the moment one is full, you're into non-data.
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23:01 | Bertl | and to me that is exactly what is happening in your gif
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23:01 | troy_s | The more accurate technique is taking that "correct" data and decreasing saturation along the axis so you don't end up with whacked values like in the Canon example.
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23:01 | troy_s | Which is unlike some of the more sophisticated cameras which deliver a usable encode right off of the metal machine.
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23:02 | Bertl | so we are talking about encoding here not improving the raw data?
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23:02 | Bertl | i.e. what some encoders do wrong in some proprietary cameras?
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23:03 | troy_s | Correct. The encoding.
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23:03 | troy_s | (as in we should never get that yellow bowl.)
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23:03 | troy_s | (instead, the encoded values should be colorimetrically correct)
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23:03 | Bertl | well, we will still get this yellow bowl, if the red channel tops out while the blue and green is still in range
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23:03 | troy_s | Nope.
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23:04 | Bertl | yep
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23:04 | troy_s | Because you've properly saturated the other two wells before.
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23:04 | troy_s | To hold the chromaticity axis.
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23:04 | Bertl | what you explain here is color guessing :)
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23:04 | troy_s | Nope.
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23:05 | Bertl | if you have data (i.e. are not saturated) then the data is fine without any LUT or modification
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23:05 | troy_s | Not really because you are then hard cutting.
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23:05 | Bertl | if you cross the treshold and one channel is saturated, you don't know 'how much' so you can't compensate
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23:05 | troy_s | Which is undesireable.
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23:06 | troy_s | The idea is that you don't need to guess after one sensel is pinned.
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23:06 | troy_s | As the moment one is pinned, your other two are pinned.
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23:06 | troy_s | So you are gracefully ascending up to non-data versus leaving the residue of non-data.
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23:06 | troy_s | (and leveraging the actual data to get there.)
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23:06 | Bertl | so you want to paper over it?
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23:07 | troy_s | It isn't papering. It's actually providing an extremely important transform.
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23:07 | Bertl | i.e. let everything go 'white' at the upper range?
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23:07 | troy_s | *and* delivering a much more aesthetic result.
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23:07 | troy_s | It isn't a hard cut.
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23:07 | Spirit532 | is there a live demo of that?
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23:07 | troy_s | Remember you'd be gracefully desaturating (correctly colorimetrically)
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23:07 | Spirit532 | as in, going up in saturation
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23:08 | troy_s | Spirit532: There's plenty in some of the work I've been doing on Filmic.
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23:08 | Bertl | while I agree that this is a good idea to avoid strange color effects, it will mess up the actual data
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23:08 | troy_s | Bertl: The actual data is messed up the other way.
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23:08 | troy_s | in that you aren't capturing a proper representation of the scene within the confines of a device referred encode.
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23:10 | Bertl | I have to disagree here, but I get now what you mean and I agree that it gives 'more aesthetic' results
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23:10 | troy_s | Bertl: The problem is that A) having a hard cut delivers incorrect results.
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23:10 | Bertl | and it should be easy to implement for a preview for example
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23:10 | troy_s | Let me dig up three examples.
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23:11 | Bertl | the hard cut needs to reserve at least one value for 'overexposed' (aka non-data)
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23:11 | Bertl | still won't give you pretty pictures :)
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23:13 | troy_s | Bertl: The hard cut is the termination of your data.
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23:13 | Spirit532 | Gotta go to bed. Gn.
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23:13 | Bertl | nn
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23:13 | troy_s | Bertl: So you are much more prudent to ramp up to it, preserving the xy axis, than the precise xy.
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23:13 | Bertl | yep, for pretty pictures I agree, but you are basically mutilating perfectly fine data for it
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23:14 | troy_s | It's not just pretty pictures.
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23:14 | Bertl | because the data you get in this 'compression' range will simply be wrong
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23:14 | troy_s | As you can simply push the saturation back out as required.
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23:14 | troy_s | Nope. It's the same.
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23:14 | troy_s | That's the point.
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23:14 | troy_s | You can in fact push out saturation in a colorimetrically correct fashion.
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23:15 | troy_s | So while you are compressing values, you are doing so in the proper manner, as opposed to relying on well saturation to do it inappropriately.
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23:15 | Bertl | let's make an extreme example here
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23:15 | Bertl | let's say you start compressing at 240 up to 255
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23:16 | Bertl | and let's also say the LUT is a simple 'reduce missing values by proportion'
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23:16 | Bertl | i.e. if you have 100/240/50 then the transform gives you 100/240/50
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23:17 | Spirit532 | left the channel | |
23:17 | Bertl | but if you have 100/248/50, then you half the distance for the other two channels
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23:17 | troy_s | Sure. A simple LERP.
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23:17 | Bertl | i.e. 100+155/2/248/50+255/2
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23:18 | Bertl | that will give you a simple 'fade to white' before overexposing
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23:18 | troy_s | Sure.
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23:18 | Bertl | that is what you mean as an example, right?
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23:19 | Bertl | of course, it will be a little more complex when two primaries reach the 240 value
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23:20 | Bertl | but, for the sake of the argument, let's assume we only have one primary in the critical range
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23:20 | troy_s | Yes.
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23:21 | Bertl | so we map 100/248/50 -> 177/248/177
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23:21 | Bertl | sorry 100/248/50 -> 187/248/177
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23:22 | danieeeel | changed nick to: danieel
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23:22 | Bertl | but we _know_ that the actual sensel information is linear and was correct (no primary is overexposed at 100/248/50)
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23:23 | Bertl | so, we now have the correct data 100/248/50 and incorrect data 187/248/177, which just happens to fade nicely to white when we near overexposure
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23:23 | Bertl | looks very pleasing, but is nevertheless wrong, no?
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23:25 | troy_s | It's certainly "wrong" but look at the alternate in terms of an image; the hard cut.
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23:25 | troy_s | Which from a photographic vantage is worse.
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23:26 | Bertl | I agree, but the question is, do you win anything by doing this 'compression' on the raw data?
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23:26 | Bertl | because you can always do this kind of operation on the raw data at any later point
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23:26 | Bertl | OTOH, you probably can't undo it, except for very specific cases
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23:28 | troy_s | My vantage would be from the end "what you see in the encoded data" it makes more sense to do it.
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23:28 | troy_s | (as in take a step out)
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23:29 | Bertl | as I said, for e.g. preview or similar I think it's an excellent idea
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23:30 | Bertl | for modifying raw data before recording, I think it's a very bad idea :)
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23:36 | Bertl | but I can also see why cameras with 'lossy compression' would go this route, because the 'cut off' poses a big problem for any (lossy) compressor
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01:03 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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08:36 | Bertl | morning folks!
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10:57 | simonrepp | helloo, i'm a bit ill currently, can anyone jump in to host the irc meeting today in the evening?
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10:58 | simonrepp | (i'll take care of the announcement however, if hosting is secured :D)
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10:58 | se6astian | will do
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10:59 | simonrepp | super \o/ many thanks
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11:01 | se6astian | you are welcome
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11:04 | simonrepp | is announced!
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11:14 | simonrepp | thanks again, i'm off! cheers
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11:29 | Bertl | off for now ... bbl
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16:46 | se6astian | now popular: 弿ºææ¯ä¸»æµï¼Open-source Axiom Beta 4K Cinema Camera http://xilinx.eetrend.com/news/10884
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16:47 | se6astian | my favourite part is æ¤å¤ï¼å¨ççä¸åºç°æ¯è¾å¤çä¸ä¸ªç¹æ¯ç®åæ£å¨è®¾æ³çæåæºå¤å£³çä¸ä¸ªéè§å¾ï¼å¦ä¸å¾æç¤º
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17:00 | Bertl_oO | changed nick to: Bertl
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17:00 | se6astian | IRC meeting time!
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17:01 | se6astian | Simon is unfortunately not available today so I will try to follow in his footsteps
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17:01 | se6astian | as this method worked very well please PM me now if you want to give an update about your work area
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17:01 | se6astian | we will then give updates one after the other
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17:02 | RexOrCine | joined the channel | |
17:04 | RexOrCine | Here.
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17:05 | se6astian | right, 4 speakers: bertl, davidak, RexOrCine and me
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17:05 | se6astian | Bertl please go ahead
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17:05 | Bertl | okay, tx
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17:05 | Bertl | I had some setbacks over the last few weeks but nothing critical (hardware problems, etc)
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17:06 | Bertl | Not on the Beta though, but with comodity PC hardware :)
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17:06 | Bertl | Nevertheless, I managed to build a new SD image for the Beta
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17:06 | Bertl | which contains an updated Arch Linux as well as an up-to-date Kernel
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17:07 | davidak | can you provide a download link for those who have a dev kit?
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17:07 | Bertl | The device tree was rebuilt from scratch to make it more general and support some future enhancements
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17:08 | Bertl | the image is already up, but I would suggest to wait a few more days as I don't have Beta hardware to test it on and Sebastian had some feedback
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17:08 | Bertl | so we will iron out potential issues over the week and then upload another image which will hopefully last for some time
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17:09 | Bertl | I also updated my build system to the latest Vivado, Diamond, iVerilog, KiCad, Eagle, etcc
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17:09 | Bertl | so that we can do some testing on those to prevent problems
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17:10 | Bertl | I almost finished the ESP32 shield (only power needs to be routed), so we will soon have a new shield to test and hopefully build :)
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17:10 | Bertl | and together with se6astian we did a session last week to help our assembly team to improve on hand soldering those parts who need it
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17:11 | Bertl | that's it from my side ... any questions?
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17:11 | davidak | how big is the assembly team?
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17:12 | Bertl | currently we have six people if I counted right
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17:12 | davidak | great
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17:12 | Bertl | but time coordination is still a problem
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17:12 | Bertl | might improve in the near future though
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17:13 | se6astian | many thanks, taking notes for meeting summary in parallel
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17:14 | se6astian | I count 7 people in the assembly team if we include me and bertl
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17:15 | Bertl | I didn't include us :)
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17:15 | RexOrCine | davidak The man in the photo that was tweeted earlier is Manfred I believe.
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17:15 | se6astian | yes
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17:15 | se6astian | ok davidak you turn please
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17:15 | Bertl | +r
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17:16 | davidak | we don't had any meetings with the website redesign team.
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17:17 | RexOrCine | Possibly because not much is going on at present.
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17:17 | se6astian | and I think most if not everything regarding content is actually decided/discussed already
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17:17 | RexOrCine | It's just getting someone to pull their finger out.
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17:17 | davidak | currently we see no progress with the website theme, so we called for some help
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17:18 | davidak | https://twitter.com/ApertusOSCinema/status/821018109624598529
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17:18 | davidak | se6astian: can you add the current result?
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17:19 | RexOrCine | This is always an issue, because this kind of thing takes time. Even when money is involved you typically have to pressure a dev.
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17:19 | Bertl | pressure doesn't work well on open source developers :)
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17:19 | davidak | normally you have deadlines and communicate progress
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17:19 | se6astian | current results: one agency and one person offered help via twitter
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17:19 | se6astian | one person via email after seeing the twitter post
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17:20 | se6astian | one person via facebook
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17:20 | RexOrCine | It may be that this guy I'm dealing with currently is familiar with drupel, I'll be mentioning it later.
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17:20 | RexOrCine | When there was bad feedback Re Drupel were any alternatives mentioned?
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17:20 | RexOrCine | Am I right in thinking that these people expect to be paid?
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17:21 | se6astian | currently it seems like 3 out of these 4 contacts expect this to be a paid gig
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17:21 | se6astian | I ll contact them all to clarify the situation though
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17:22 | se6astian | using another CMS is not really up for discussion at this point anymore
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17:23 | RexOrCine | The guy that was dabbling recently, is he a Uni guy?
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17:23 | se6astian | davidak anything else to report?
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17:23 | davidak | there was already some work on new flyers to print. the content is already pretty ready, but we need a designer to have a good first impression.
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17:24 | RexOrCine | I'd like to see those.
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17:25 | se6astian | davidak you mentioned the OS guy who offered paid graphics design help recently
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17:25 | davidak | my idea was that we could pay a designer to help us. like http://ura.design/ (helping open source projects, pay what you can basis) or ask here http://opensourcedesign.net/jobs/
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17:25 | RexOrCine | I take it you're not talking about the work that I did.
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17:25 | davidak | that needs to be discussed if we have the money and want to pay others to work for us
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17:27 | davidak | se6astian: can you add some more info about the flyer redesign?
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17:27 | se6astian | sure: there is a shared google doc where we collect references and current process with text, layout, graphical elements
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17:28 | se6astian | I suggested we discuss this topic of paying someone else here as first step and with the community/board as well
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17:28 | RexOrCine | So where are these new flyers being worked on?
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17:28 | se6astian | so far our policy has been that we do not pay anyone a "salary" in the project from crowd funding money
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17:28 | se6astian | including us here :)
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17:28 | se6astian | RexOrCine: you have access to this google doc, there is no other place
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17:29 | se6astian | so it would require a general consensus about what ground rules we want to set up for paying for services
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17:29 | RexOrCine | Ah, so the new flyers must be what I did. I will say, I don't think it's a good idea to settle on any concepts until we have a hi-key image of the AXIOM Beta.
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17:29 | se6astian | as this is a very difficult topic
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17:29 | se6astian | who gets paid, who doesnt get paid, why not me, why this guy, etc....
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17:29 | davidak | we could ask here if someone want to give some money for that. like a internal mini crowdfunding. i'm not sure what is a fair salery for such work
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17:30 | RexOrCine | Well I took 230 quid net in 2016 so I'm out.
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17:31 | Bertl | I think we can pay a 'service' as apertus (from the donations, etc) if we all agree that we need it done urgently or by a third party
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17:31 | RexOrCine | Personally I don't think shelling out money is required.
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17:31 | Bertl | I think it would be a good idea though to check alternatives first
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17:32 | Bertl | but that's just me, that is something the board/community has to decide
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17:32 | RexOrCine | Has davidak got access to this google doc with the flyers?
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17:32 | davidak | yes, i already commented
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17:33 | davidak | and did a review
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17:33 | se6astian | its definitely a topic we will not resolve today, but we can set an outline of how to arrive at such decision
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17:33 | RexOrCine | Ah... The reverse sides or internals can be worked on. It's a case of what text, images and or diagrams are included. When it comes to the front a picture of the Beta on a white background is important.
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17:33 | se6astian | eg. what requirements must be met
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17:34 | RexOrCine | ... and we're waiting for Max for that.
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17:35 | davidak | i think later, when we sell products we will have more money to fund further development and get help from professionals and pay our contributors
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17:36 | RexOrCine | When we did the project overview... (remember the article that went to print) would there be any updates required in that document in your estimation se6astian / Bertl?
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17:36 | davidak | and fund other people who also help improve open source (software, hardware, ...) :)
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17:36 | RexOrCine | ie... would anything need to be changed / included?
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17:37 | se6astian | lets finish the money topic first
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17:37 | davidak | that was everything from my side to report.
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17:37 | Bertl | thanks davidak!
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17:37 | se6astian | I outlined a few points as proposal for the spending procedure
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17:37 | RexOrCine | The reason I ask is because, when it comes to deciding upon what's included on the inside / reverse of a flyer, it might be worth our while pulling text from that docuement.
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17:38 | se6astian | What are the requirements that we pay a third party for a service with donation/crowdfunding money:
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17:38 | se6astian | -) The service must be required urgently
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17:38 | se6astian | -) There must be no alternative
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17:38 | se6astian | -) Reasonable effort to find someone do it pro-bono must have been made
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17:38 | se6astian | -) The association board needs to consent before spending any money
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17:38 | se6astian | anything to change, remove, add?
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17:38 | Bertl | I think that we should not use crowfunding money for anything not related to the funding
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17:39 | Bertl | which IMHO rules out flyers for example
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17:39 | se6astian | thanks davidak for your points
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17:39 | se6astian | Bertl: good point, adding
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17:39 | davidak | se6astian: the requirements sounds good
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17:40 | RexOrCine | -) Any decisions should be based around what money is available and from which channels any money might be channelled from.
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17:41 | se6astian | of course - we cant spend money that we dont have obviously
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17:41 | se6astian | ok RexOrCine your turn now
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17:42 | RexOrCine | I'd be keen to know if any updates are required in the article document.
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17:43 | RexOrCine | Se6asian and I have been working on the forum. Which can be accessed here: https://forum.apertus.org/index.php
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17:44 | RexOrCine | There are still some design issues, but it's safe to register if you're reading and haven't already done so.
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17:44 | se6astian | is it ok if we invite the team first to test/use it
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17:44 | se6astian | then axiom-dev, backers, community
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17:44 | se6astian | and then general public
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17:44 | Bertl | and it seems to be HTML confirm! yay! \o/
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17:44 | Bertl | *conform
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17:45 | se6astian | with one week between each stage?
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17:45 | davidak1 | fine for me
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17:45 | RexOrCine | In the interim between website redesign we're going to need to link toward the forum from the site homepage.
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17:45 | Bertl | but the CSS needs some work, 67 errors
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17:45 | se6astian | RexOrCine: please send me the URL of the article/document to review directly afterwards
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17:45 | RexOrCine | Ten4
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17:46 | se6astian | do you want to invite the team or should I do it?
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17:47 | RexOrCine | I'll let you do that se6astian as your methods are established.
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17:47 | se6astian | ok will do
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17:48 | se6astian | anything else from your side?
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17:49 | RexOrCine | That's pretty much it. I'll be liaising with respect to bugs over the course of the next two weeks I'd imagine.
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17:50 | se6astian | great
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17:50 | se6astian | ok quick update from me:
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17:50 | se6astian | -) http://notes.apertus.org/ is still not operational
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17:50 | se6astian | I found nobody who could help us fix it so far
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17:50 | se6astian | documentation is sparse,
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17:51 | se6astian | -) on the Pick and place front
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17:51 | se6astian | I placed a set of different size components pretty successfully recently
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17:51 | se6astian | you received the results via email
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17:51 | se6astian | I am now in the process of replacing the liteplacer top and bottom vision cameras
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17:52 | se6astian | bottom vision camera arrived already and the 3d printer is printing parts for the holder right now
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17:52 | se6astian | hexagonal led lights (http://malte-randt.de/hexagonal-led-light/) are ordered
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17:52 | se6astian | top vision camera inbound, holder already delivered
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17:53 | se6astian | I also created a 3d printable semi manual tape feeder
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17:53 | se6astian | https://cad.onshape.com/documents/09670830aaa709a325eec93c/w/1010c19833535d6d8bf3472f/e/9442d1d49c729f510bf71026
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17:53 | se6astian | first tests are very promising
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17:54 | se6astian | still waiting on cnc milled tray base to really use it
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17:54 | se6astian | I also made some progress with openpnp and liteplacer documentation:
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17:54 | se6astian | https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Liteplacer_PnP_Machine_Notes
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17:55 | se6astian | optical homing, nozzle changer, etc.
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17:55 | Bertl | I only see a strip of tape at onshape :)
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17:55 | se6astian | you need to switch to the main assembly tab at bottom
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17:55 | se6astian | and pushed some small open openpnp code contributions, displaying which nozzle is currently attached, crosshair improvements, etc.
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17:56 | se6astian | regarding the new firmware image creation I added my wishes/todos here
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17:56 | se6astian | https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Beta/AXIOM_Beta_Software/Firmware
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17:56 | se6astian | an indian university student contacted us to work on cross compiling the beta internal software automaticaly
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17:57 | se6astian | I have not heard anything back though
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17:57 | se6astian | will need to follow up
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17:57 | se6astian | Phil Kerrs AXIOM Remote Plus testing progress is collected here: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Remote_Plus
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17:58 | se6astian | currently the last remaining step is to figure out the serial USB connection between remote and beta after the devicetree changes the latest firmware image brought
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17:58 | se6astian | herbert will help me in that regard soon
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17:58 | se6astian | on the hardware assembly front we added a new guy to the team last week
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17:58 | se6astian | I trained him locally and he already assembled two mainboards then
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17:59 | se6astian | he also attended to hand soldering documentation so it was half training half documentation
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17:59 | se6astian | on the wiki we now also have a price estimate that outlines how much it costs to build a Beta yourself
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17:59 | se6astian | https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Beta/AXIOM_Beta_Prices
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17:59 | se6astian | its not 100% complete yet though
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17:59 | se6astian | but growing
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18:00 | se6astian | thats it from my side
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18:01 | Bertl | thanks!
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18:02 | se6astian | ok exactly 1h meeting time is already pretty long, so lets close todays meeting if there are no further general remarks/topics
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18:03 | davidak1 | thanks everyone
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18:03 | se6astian | next meeting time?
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18:03 | se6astian | 2weeks monday 19:00 again?
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18:03 | se6astian | I see I have an appointment on the 30th at 19:00
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18:04 | se6astian | a "material regulars table"
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18:04 | se6astian | dealing with new materials and compounds for producing products, architecture, etc.
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18:04 | se6astian | but its an offline meeting
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18:05 | se6astian | Tue 31st of january?
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18:05 | davidak1 | ok for me
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18:05 | Bertl | fine with me
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18:05 | se6astian | great
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18:05 | se6astian | noted
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18:06 | se6astian | ok, thanks everyone for attending, meeting closed
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18:07 | RexOrCine | Good stuff
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18:24 | davidak1 | i'm curious if simonrepp has already contacted marcin from opensourceecology back. i really like his vision and see great progress on his projects. we can probaply learn a lot from him and get helpful feedback on our designs. for example he does google hangouts with people to discuss https://youtu.be/QXoGIEG6-Xs
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18:24 | davidak1 | (do you got the whole message including the link?)
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18:25 | Bertl | yup
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18:27 | Bertl | very strange and somewhat confusing ... :)
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18:31 | davidak1 | if you don't know them, this is their current project: http://openbuildinginstitute.org/
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18:32 | davidak1 | everything open source
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18:33 | davidak1 | also a wider vision for a whole open source ecology http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page
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18:33 | davidak1 | they are building a 3D printer for example
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18:33 | Bertl | yeah, I know the open source ecology
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18:34 | davidak1 | and everything else to build a civilization :)
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18:35 | davidak1 | his TED Talk is very inspiring (and short) http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski?utm_source=tedcomshare&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tedspread
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18:37 | davidak1 | he posts a lot of raw videos of the progress on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/marcinose/videos
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20:56 | RexO | Posting that here, it's pretty much lost, on the forum it might get some traction.
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21:21 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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