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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/07/15

Timezone: UTC


00:04
fsteinel_
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fsteinel
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00:44
Neferstefany
back
00:45
Bertl
wb
00:46
Neferstefany
thanks...
00:46
Neferstefany
So I had questions...
00:46
Neferstefany
How does it work when somebody design something new... For example, if I was going to design this I/O shield board with whatever hardware... who takes care of paying for the PCB tooling and parts and assembly?
00:47
Neferstefany
and how the person who has designed the board can debug and make the board work without the rest of the system/
00:48
Bertl
well, first, as sebastian already mentioned, our goal is to make the beta very affordable for developers
00:48
Bertl
this basically means that you can get a 'system' for a few hundred bucks
00:49
Bertl
so that will usually cover the debug part (in system)
00:49
Bertl
but to answer the original question, who pays for the tooling, parts, assembly
00:50
Bertl
typically the people interested in this specific shield will do
00:50
Bertl
so, either the developer because he wants to do some on-time proprietary module
00:50
Neferstefany
ok, basically, if I am getting in this, I have to pay for it myself...
00:51
Bertl
or a larger group of interested people which consider this module worth sponsoring or developing
00:51
Bertl
or if it is part of the crowd funding development, it might be covered there
00:51
Neferstefany
I see..
00:51
Bertl
note that we have no millionaire or something who sponsors all that what we do
00:52
Bertl
we do it in our spare time and we often do it on our money
00:52
Neferstefany
Of course... but unfortunately I am no millionaire myself ! ;)
00:52
Bertl
(except for donations and such)
00:52
Neferstefany
Alright, I was cooking and was thinking about that... so it answers my question...
00:53
Bertl
I'd say, you'd have a pretty good module with some kind of SDI interface if you can pull it off
00:53
Neferstefany
So, bottom line, if I was going to do something like, I would do it on the final version, not the Gamma version.
00:54
Neferstefany
It doesn't make sense to do anything on the actual design since it is just design for development, it would have to be redone to fit the proposed final design
00:54
Neferstefany
unless I am missing something...
00:54
Bertl
I think there will be no final version, but I guess you mean beta and you are referring to gamma as the final version
00:55
Neferstefany
Well, the one we see the picture everywhere... the nice modular design... Yes I must the gamma version then...
00:55
Bertl
and yes, it would have to be redone, and no, IMHO it does make a lot of sense to make it fit for the beta as well
00:56
Bertl
the point is, unless you want to do it just for yourself in you private room (which is an option :) then you probably want to get other developers interested in it as well
00:56
Bertl
for example to get proper software support, integration, testing, etc
00:57
Neferstefany
Hum... I start to understand the intrecacy of this way of doing things... unless you are part of the team that makes the core of the system, everything on the side is considered like a secondary thing...
00:58
Bertl
well, kind of, there has to be a core team, and there will be many, many sattelite projects
00:58
Bertl
very similar to how it works on the FOSS side
00:58
Neferstefany
So, the more I think about it, the more it is like a very individual kind of thing and it ties back with my email I wrote yesterday. In a world where I would not have my own stuff, getting involved would be awesome, but now, since I have my own stuff, the investment of time is a bit pointless...
00:59
Bertl
very much depends on your goals and what you really have :)
00:59
Neferstefany
true...
00:59
Neferstefany
So, it becoming clearer and clearer...
01:00
Bertl
let's say you have the blueprint for a perfect SDI module
01:01
Bertl
where perfect means that it not only does all SDI modes out there, it also fits the axiom project
01:02
Bertl
let's further assume, that you can build a prototype of said module in the next few months for Beta
01:02
Neferstefany
sure
01:03
Bertl
I'm pretty sure in that case we will find somebody to donate you the Beta hardware for testing that module
01:03
Bertl
which in turn means, that you would have a camera plus a great SDI module :)
01:03
Neferstefany
I understand... I mean, the idea to conceive the Schematic and PCB for me is no big deal, I have designed that thing over and over...
01:03
Bertl
and everybody else would have a great SDI module as well
01:04
Bertl
care to show me a schematic?
01:04
Neferstefany
Yes, but the Beta version CANT be used into production.. You have to keep in mind, that my personal goal is to get a working camera that I can bring on set and shoot
01:04
Bertl
the Beta will be able to do that
01:05
Bertl
it will not be fancy or deeply modular as the gamma, but it will certainly be useable
01:05
Bertl
heck, we have been shooting for some time now with the shoebox called Alpha :)
01:05
Neferstefany
There is not much to share, you need an FPGA with Serdes and you put a 6G Cable driver from Semtech, there is no secret there... And you use Xilinx FPGa core
01:06
Neferstefany
I am sorry to say, but there is no way this setup would work more then a Day on Set...
01:07
Bertl
if you say so ...
01:09
Neferstefany
Listen, I don't to belittle what you have, I am just saying that it would not be very pratical on set. And I feel the original intent of Oscar has shift towards a more common usage of the camera instead of being targetted solely to be a Film camera to shoot movies...
01:09
Neferstefany
What the Gamma version seem to be
01:10
Neferstefany
but right now, it is like you said a development platform for anybody to use and to a certain degree it might be a better idea to bring more people in...
01:10
Bertl
so feel free to wait till we finished the gamma, and then design your custom module (if necessary)
01:11
Bertl
but if all you want is 'just' a camera, it is probably simpler to buy a red or whatever is cheapest at the moment
01:12
Neferstefany
Sure... Maybe a could do that, if you have established the mecanical ground already, It could be a possibility. I could simply create some schematic for later implementation... Who knows... I am just warming up...
01:12
Neferstefany
I wish I would have that kind of money... but tell me, what motivated Oscar to want a camera?
01:12
Neferstefany
To shoot a movie right? He is a movie maker...
01:13
Bertl
yes but I think he can afford 'a camera', what he wants is a camera with certain features
01:13
Neferstefany
I am a movie maker and so I need a camera... Before I was an Electronic Design Engineer who wanted to design a camera for others and now I am movie maker who can make my own camera...
01:13
Bertl
s/features/qualities/
01:14
Neferstefany
Of course, I want the same... I could go and rent a Red tomorrow, my first short was made with a Red Epic... it was great...
01:14
Bertl
great! so just do it :)
01:15
Neferstefany
But making it, tweaking it the way you want is even more fun then just make the movie...
01:15
Neferstefany
So, this is what I am doing now...
01:16
Neferstefany
I apologize if I am bit straight forward about what I think, again, what you are doing is great, I don't mean to be rude or else... I just had a different idea about how this open source thing was working...
01:16
Neferstefany
It is a bit tricky in the hardware world...
01:17
Bertl
you are not the first and you won't be the last
01:17
Neferstefany
TO do what?
01:17
Bertl
having different ideas about how open source works
01:17
Bertl
and no problem with being straight, I appreciate it
01:18
Bertl
we had a number of companies who wanted to 'work' with us, which had a completely wrong perception about open source and free soft/hardware
01:19
Bertl
(there is a wiki page about the apertus philosophy)
01:19
Neferstefany
What was their idea about it, did they though they could save a ton of R&D by using the free design?
01:19
Bertl
well, that would actually have worked :)
01:20
Bertl
no, for example, they wanted to build an FPGA module for us
01:20
Neferstefany
You know, in terms of having all the info available it is priceless, to be able to have access to schematic and stuff even if it is just for a piece of design....
01:20
Bertl
(of course, after receiving a larger sum)
01:20
Neferstefany
okay... that's weird...
01:20
Neferstefany
what?
01:20
Neferstefany
really, they wanted you to pay them to design something?
01:21
Bertl
but they didn't understand, that they would have to provide schematics or layouts
01:21
Neferstefany
this is nuts...
01:21
Bertl
yes, and there have been others who wanted to 'sell' our IP :)
01:22
Neferstefany
listen, what I am thinking is that what I could do in the short terms is come up with a schematic of the thing and I could even lay it out for Beta or Gamma... and then if somebody wants to make it then it is done...
01:22
Neferstefany
Of course, there always be those con artist!
01:23
Bertl
https://apertus.org/opensource
01:23
Neferstefany
I mean, I want to participate, but I have very very little money... so that can help, then it is good...
01:24
Bertl
well, we have little money too and we manage so far
01:24
Bertl
you have to be creative about how to do things, but it is definitely more fun
01:25
Neferstefany
I know... I am juggling with a lot of ideas right now and try to be very effective about it... Trying to pull some favors get free sample... so on and so forth!
01:25
Bertl
just to put it into perspective, a proper SDI module won't be as simple as you put it for several reasons
01:26
Neferstefany
why is that?
01:26
Bertl
first, the SDI core from xilinx is probably not an option (because of licensing restrictions)
01:27
Bertl
then, the design has to match the camera (be it beta or gamma) in many aspects
01:27
Neferstefany
well, I am not sure about that. The SDI core is part of a Reference design, so you are not actually paying for that... But the extent of the licensing is unknown to me...
01:27
Bertl
(power management, form factor, interfaces, etc)
01:27
Neferstefany
Licensing might be an issue, I would not be worried about the rest...
01:28
Neferstefany
the Display Port core, is a core you need to pay but not the SDI
01:28
Neferstefany
Obviously, there could be mechanical issues...
01:29
Bertl
software interfaces matter as well, after all it has to 'work' with other designs, modules, etc
01:29
Neferstefany
of course...
01:30
Bertl
so to be clear here, it is way simpler just to whip up something for yourself
01:30
Neferstefany
How do you carry your image information after being processed by the Zynq from one module to the other?
01:30
Neferstefany
Do you have a control bus like I2c or something/
01:30
Neferstefany
?
01:31
Bertl
there is no fixed design for the beta yet, on the alpha we use two image pipelines
01:31
Bertl
sec
01:32
Bertl
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Axiom_Alpha_Software#Image_Pipeline
01:33
Bertl
all registers, physical and virtual are mapped into memory and can be configured from the linux userspace running on the arm cores
01:33
Bertl
this includes I2C devices, like the temperature sensors, the HDMI chip and the cmv12k
01:34
Neferstefany
k
01:34
Bertl
the image data itself is currently dumped into memory with triple (actually quadrupple) buffering
01:35
Neferstefany
the LUT is it a 2D Lut or 3D Lut?
01:35
Bertl
all LUTs are 1D here
01:35
Neferstefany
ha ok
01:36
Bertl
the color correction in the alpha is done with a 4x4 + 4 matrix
01:36
Neferstefany
k
01:38
Neferstefany
OKay you are running Unbuntu on the Zynq... Sweet...
01:38
Neferstefany
Never thought about putting Android
01:38
Bertl
actually we are running a very simple busybox setup on the alpha, with a raspian chroot
01:39
Neferstefany
I see, this is out of my scope...
01:39
Bertl
it helped testing a lot as you can simply ssh into the camera and change registers
01:39
Bertl
most of the configuration is done by simple shell scripts
01:40
Neferstefany
Make sense... I naturally usually stay very far from Operating System...
01:40
Neferstefany
I know it make life easier...
01:41
Neferstefany
But, I have a phoby of them! ;)
01:41
Bertl
so how do you chat with me then? :)
01:42
Neferstefany
Duh!!! C'mon, I was talking about the camera or small electronic device...
01:42
Neferstefany
It seems that the easy way these days is to implement an OS pretty much everywhere... even when it is not necessary
01:43
Bertl
well, the advantage here is that we do not have to 'implement' it, because it is already available :)
01:43
Neferstefany
I am by nature very opposite to any mainstream way of doing things... It is not because everybody does it that it is necessarily a good thing...
01:43
Neferstefany
That's my point!
01:43
Bertl
i.e. we can just use it, or don't use it, however we like
01:44
Neferstefany
Again, this is just me making my life difficult... lol
01:44
Bertl
and to be honest, I would have spent many, many more hours if I had done all the configuration and testing with bare metal code
01:44
Neferstefany
I have to learn the hard way!
01:45
Neferstefany
Listen... I get it... For me, trying to understand it and to implement it and to make it mine so I can change it at will is way more time and effort then not deal with it at all... ;)
01:46
Neferstefany
But, again, maybe it is a missconception and also because I am probably a bit scared of the whole thing!
01:46
Bertl
again, you're not alone there :)
01:47
Bertl
speaking of, we had a few potential partners which got really scared when they heard that we are doing 'open source' :)
01:47
Neferstefany
It is great to hear... It is like FPGAs and mechanical design... took me a while to get in it and when I was there, I did not understand why I did not get interested sooner!
01:48
Neferstefany
Well, partners being scared means either not understanding the challenges or not seeing a profit!
01:48
Bertl
I really suggest to have a long read on the page I pasted (about open source) and the articles linked from there, it might help to understand how it works for us
01:49
Neferstefany
I will...
01:49
Bertl
and then decide if that is something worth doing or participating for you
01:49
Neferstefany
Sure there are some thinking to be done here... for sure
01:49
Neferstefany
Thanks a lot for your time by the way, it is really appreciated...
01:49
Neferstefany
BTW, are you not supposed to be sleeping right now?
01:50
Bertl
even if you find that this is not the way you want to work, you're welcome here and you can still use the designs and the products later
01:50
Neferstefany
It is nice of you to say!
01:50
Bertl
I'm not really into those local time zones
01:50
Bertl
:)
01:50
Neferstefany
Well, you must have your own time zone then!
01:50
Bertl
yes, BUT
01:50
Bertl
Bertl's Unique Timezone :)
01:51
Bertl
it's morning when I get up, and it's evening when I go to bed :)
01:51
Neferstefany
Which is set between 5h00AM and Noon for sleeping and the rest of time is design, design, eat, design, design, toilet, design, design, eat, and chat ;)
01:52
Neferstefany
okay 11:00 AM instead of noon
01:52
Bertl
yeah, kind of, I'm doing a lot of stuff in parallel though ...
01:52
Neferstefany
what do you do to make a living?
01:52
Bertl
I'm a self employed consultant (IT/Networking/Embedded Systems)
01:53
Neferstefany
cool, I used to do that too. I ran out of job...
01:55
Neferstefany
Alright, thanks again for your time... I will talk to you soon!
01:56
Neferstefany
Cheers!
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Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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se6astian
good morning
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se6astian
good night everyone
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