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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2013/11/14

Timezone: UTC


23:09
aombk
FergusL: haha, no its my computer thinking it should teach me more about experimental/noise music.
23:11
FergusL
You should listen more! These sounds were interesting.
23:14
Bertl
aombk: what kind of computer?
23:15
aombk
desktop pc usb external card
23:15
aombk
but the internal card does that sound too if i remember correctly
23:16
aombk
*i mean sound card
23:19
aombk
half of the time i join #apertus i believe FergusL and Bertl are the same person :P
23:19
Bertl
hehe, how so?
23:21
aombk
because when i first met FergusL online some time ago we were talking and then some day he started changing nicknames always ending with L
23:21
FergusL
Look-alike nicknames ?
23:21
FergusL
Hahaha
23:24
Bertl
I see, well, your IRC client is obviously better than most, because folks usually read the 'l' at the end as 'i' :)
23:28
aombk
chatzilla . the power of the ugly new times roman!
23:52
aombk
hey FergusL wanna hear some voluntary experimental/noise? http://aombk.attinom.net/otr/?page_id=131
05:28
Bertl
night everyone!
07:06
troy_s_
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07:06
rexbron
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07:12
rexbron
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07:15
troy_s
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07:23
se6astian
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07:23
se6astian
good morning
07:31
dmj_nova
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07:35
troy_s
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07:35
rexbron
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07:38
[1]se6astian
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07:40
se6astian
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07:40
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
07:42
rexbron
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07:46
troy_s
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07:50
troy_s
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07:50
rexbron
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07:54
rexbron
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07:56
troy_s
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08:02
troy_s
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08:04
troy_s
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08:54
troy_s
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08:54
rexbron
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08:59
rexbron
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09:03
rexbron
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09:19
rexbron
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09:23
troy_s
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09:53
intracube
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11:03
dmj_nova
se6astian: is that concept waterproof?
11:09
se6astian
no
11:26
[1]se6astian
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11:28
se6astian
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11:28
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
11:30
[1]se6astian
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11:32
dmj_nova
se6astian: so stuff can leak through to the sensor/electronics?
11:33
se6astian
left the channel
11:33
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
11:43
se6astian
not if we can prevent it, I wrote "chimney sealed to camera inside" in the concept, though that does not mean you can throw the camera into a pond obviously
11:46
dmj_nova
ah, okay
11:46
dmj_nova
not without sealing the modules together anyway
11:49
dmj_nova
se6astian: meeting is in one hour?
11:50
mars_
to have a common basis when we talk about waterproofing oder moisture resistance, we should refer to ip codes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code
11:52
se6astian
yes in one hour
11:54
dmj_nova
I feel that the design should be at least liquid IP4
12:07
se6astian
left the channel
12:19
Bertl
morning everyone!
12:20
intracube
morning Bertl :)
12:32
se6astian
joined the channel
12:32
Bertl
wb se6astian!
12:32
se6astian
hi there
12:32
se6astian
my irc client froze
12:33
Bertl
happens sometimes, most irc clients detect it an reconnect
12:34
Bertl
happens when some switch or router in your connection decides to drop the connection
12:35
se6astian
yes thats what my client does but in this incident the softwre itself froze/crashed
12:35
se6astian
maybe because I am running 3d renderings with high performance demand in the background :)
12:36
Bertl
interesting ... what operating system/kernel?
12:37
Bertl
btw, nice cooling concept - love the chimney idea :) - but it probably needs some modifications though
12:38
dmj_nova
se6astian: what's the meeting topics?
12:39
Bertl
first, I'm not sure we can put the connectors on the side, it might be necessary to have them at the top/bottom, which means that the chimney would need to be more 'U' or 'V' shaped instead of the 'T' shape
12:40
Bertl
second, I would avoid connecting the FPGA heat sink to the sensor heat sink at all cost
12:41
se6astian
win7 :)
12:41
Bertl
ah well, a single tasking OS :)
12:41
se6astian
yes :)
12:41
se6astian
what about two heatsinks
12:41
se6astian
one for image sensor one for FPGA
12:42
se6astian
next/on top/side by side to each other?
12:42
Bertl
yeah one on each side, the air stream in the middle sounds more doable
12:42
se6astian
the bottom side is rather bad for having vents
12:42
se6astian
because this side is most likely completely covered
12:43
Bertl
we also need to plan for heat spreaders or peltier elements which match the size of the sensor/FPGA/RAM
12:43
se6astian
tripod mound, should plate, etc.
12:43
Bertl
the entry and exit points can still be on the sides if designed carefully
12:44
Sasha_C
joined the channel
12:44
se6astian
peltier element, I guess the bigger the better, but the area we can cut into the PCB is limited by the pins of the sensor
12:45
Bertl
nah, size doesn't matter that much here, it is more about power and placement
12:45
se6astian
ok, then thats a details that the concept does not really need to cover at this point I guess
12:45
se6astian
can you make a drawing of U, V shaped chimneys?
12:46
Bertl
I see the top/bottom as separated units, thus I said T, U and V
12:47
Bertl
if you look at the whole chimney, it is more an 'I' now, and it could be an 'H' or 'X' :)
12:47
Bertl
hope that clarifies
12:47
se6astian
ah I see
12:48
Bertl
what confuses me in the design are the fans, because somehow they do not fit the proportions here
12:48
se6astian
yes they are retouched in quite badly ;)
12:48
Bertl
they look like 4x4cm fans, but
12:49
Bertl
but that would not even remotely fit the sensor sizes
12:49
Bertl
OTOH, if I assume that they are 10mm in diameter, I do not know of any readily available fans in that size
12:50
se6astian
25mm seems to be the smallest standard size: https://geizhals.at/?cat=coolfan&xf=355_25
12:51
Bertl
yes, but the problem with small fans is that they get noisy and inefficient
12:52
Bertl
I wonder if it would be a problem to have a large fan (like 80x80 or so) on the top of the camera?
12:52
se6astian
hmm, interesting idea
12:52
Bertl
IMHO it might even be detachable in case you don't need it
12:53
se6astian
then it would need to be outside the enclosure....
12:54
se6astian
not entirely sure how that could be done yet....
12:55
Bertl
it is already 'outside' the enclosure as the entire chimney topologically is on the outside
12:55
se6astian
?
12:55
Bertl
but I think some kind of plug on with clips or something would work
12:56
Oscar_Apertus
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12:56
Bertl
welcome Oscar_Apertus!
12:56
se6astian
but what about the threads on the top and the handle?
12:56
se6astian
hi oscar
12:57
Bertl
don't see any threads or handle in the images atm
12:58
Bertl
(so I can't say if that would be a problem or not)
15:26
intracube
hi folks
15:26
Bertl
hey intracube! :)
15:27
intracube
can I comment as a hypothetical end user?
15:27
Bertl
sure, go ahead, that's what this is for
15:28
intracube
there are some obvious advantages to this project compared to what established companies are offering
15:28
intracube
some of the main players will deliberately hold back features on lower end models to avoid eating into the profits of their more expensive models
15:29
intracube
so they're deliberately crippling their own products
15:29
Bertl
yes, we see that in many areas
15:29
Bertl
(i.e. not just cameras)
15:29
intracube
and this won't be an issue for the axiom
15:29
intracube
indeed. sony are particularly bad at this
15:30
intracube
Nikon release the D600 which was initially $3200 in the UK and there was no way to adjust aperture while in video mode
15:30
intracube
the black magic 4k looks really interesting, but it only supports standard frame-rates
15:30
dmj_nova
wait, what?
15:31
intracube
dmj_nova: hmm?
15:31
dmj_nova
how can you use a camera without adjusting aperture?
15:31
dmj_nova
that sounds more broken than limited
15:31
intracube
AIUI, you have to drop out of video mode (back to photo mode), adjust aperture, go back to video mode
15:32
dmj_nova
I feel sorry for Nikon users
15:32
intracube
and what's worse is they release the successor to the D600 a year later (D610) and it has the same issue
15:33
Sasha_C
intracube: Are you aware that sony has just released two new full-frame mirrorless cameras (a7 & a7r) that can accept lenses from different brands (via adapters) and shoot clean 'raw' video out via HDMI?
15:33
intracube
of course the D610 isn't primarily a digital cinema camera, but it's a hopeless design decision if they're selling it on it's video capabilities
15:33
Bertl
this, IMHO, is one of the essential advantages of open source and open hardware, and I can't get tired to emphasize that ... in open source/hardware, you _always_ have a way to fix such things
15:33
dmj_nova
Bertl: Indeed
15:33
intracube
Sasha_C: I haven't been keeping up with what's available
15:33
intracube
Bertl: indeed
15:34
dmj_nova
It's the entire reason I'm here :)
15:34
dmj_nova
Sasha_C: My guess is that's uncompressed 8 bit video
15:34
Bertl
and I also think that this is something we still need to communicate to the broader public
15:34
philippejadin
left the channel
15:35
intracube
and even if early versions of the Axiom only support standard frame-rates. as an end user, if I hear that the hardware is capable of lower framerates and it's just a question of a software update - then that's would be good enough for me
15:35
Bertl
i.e. folks need to get aware that with axiom there is always a way to get exactly what they want
15:35
dmj_nova
Bertl: hmm...I'll see if I have time for a demo to communicate that
15:35
Sasha_C
dmj_nova: Yes, that's what I think too. Still, I've heard people describe these new sony models (sporting 24mp & 36mp respectively) as being in the spirit of 'open source', as you can get an adapter and use any brand of lens
15:35
Bertl
it might take some while, it may cost a little, but it is possible
15:36
intracube
Sasha_C: what sony models are they?
15:37
Sasha_C
intracube: http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/sonys-alpha-a7-a7r-image-quality-may-make-splurge-full-frame/
15:37
dmj_nova
more importantly intracube, the update can give everyone official support
15:37
intracube
Sasha_C: thanks
15:37
dmj_nova
I'd love it if axiom got full frame eventually :)
15:38
intracube
Sasha_C: thanks (and I didn't see you actually said a7, a7r earlier) oops :)
15:38
Sasha_C
no worries man
15:38
Bertl
so, IMHO it is also important to focus on advertising the real advantages of that project and not just the camera features the typical user is comparing with the so called 'competitors'
15:39
troy_s
Bertl: I will play devil's advocate
15:39
Bertl
I totally agree that we need to be competitive, don't get me wrong
15:39
Bertl
but there is a lot more to axiom than just having nice features
15:39
dmj_nova
yeah, we should focus on communicating our advantages
15:40
troy_s
I will go out on a limb and suggest that notions of 'upgradeability' and such are myths by and large.
15:40
Bertl
for example, I haven't heard anything about the firmware/upgrade yet
15:40
troy_s
Doubly so when one considers the niche that an Axiom will target.
15:40
dmj_nova
and make sure that what we *deliver* is competitive even aside from those advantages
15:40
intracube
troy_s: are you talking hw or sw upgradability?
15:40
Bertl
note that we already agreed (in an early stage) that we will put the firmware on a micro SD card
15:40
troy_s
intracube: In theory both.
15:41
Bertl
which in turn means, that all you have to do is to switch that card to upgrade the camera (firmware and software)
15:41
dmj_nova
why would firmware upgradability be a myth for axiom?
15:41
Bertl
now compare that to the typical camera upgrade procedures :)
15:41
intracube
troy_s: magic lantern for Canons?
15:41
intracube
Nikon updated their firmware to fix HDMI out
15:41
intracube
etc
15:42
troy_s
intracube: The rapidly shifting landscape puts an emphasis on shipping a product. At the price range, do it and do it now is vastly more important than do it later. (as well as being historically unrealistic).
15:42
intracube
if the big players are doing it, then it's surely a possibility for this project
15:42
Bertl
no lock in, no danger of bricking the camera, etc
15:42
Bertl
you test the new firmware/software with a simple card change, if you like it, great, if not, change back to the old card
15:42
dmj_nova
axiom firmware upgrades (not talking upgrading prototype to final physical hardware) should be a regular thing that improves the camera in significant ways.
15:44
troy_s
intracube: The reality is that the imagers that can afford a camera at this level are a fickle lot, and even a stellar product (can that be expected in a reasonable time frame with this project?) can be eclipsed in less than a year.
15:44
Bertl
want to use the high speed software for your project which hasn't any HDMI out, just insert the appropriate micro SD ... and so on and so forth
15:45
troy_s
So at some point the flexibility is eclipsed by the ability for an imager to use the camera and use it now. I would heavily suggest that waterline is low.
15:46
Bertl
could you rephrase that for non native speakers?
15:47
troy_s
Bertl: Set hard contextual goals that are realistically attainable and ship it. In spite of the likely moaning that will ensue
15:47
troy_s
Bertl: And simply ignore "upgradability"
15:47
troy_s
(not utterly jettison on it, but ignore it as a key contextual design notion)
15:48
Bertl
ah, yes, that is my opinion as well, but we can have the cake and eat it, with built-in upgradeabliliy from the scratch
15:48
dmj_nova
troy_s: Well, in the case of how this product is already designed, upgradability is simply a thing that will happen
15:48
Bertl
like for example the firmware concept
15:48
dmj_nova
shipping the best possible product as soon as possible, well that's the goal
15:48
intracube
it really depends on *what* upgradability we're talking about
15:48
dmj_nova
and that best product can keep improving
15:49
intracube
firmware updates could be pretty simple to implement
15:49
troy_s
Bertl: Still theoretical. And that comes at a cost of delay. Many projects that have striven for such open ended designs fail miserably. There was a wonderful interview with the creator of World Forge on that.
15:49
intracube
allowing the hardware design to support interchangable sensors would probably require a lot more effort/resources
15:49
troy_s
dmj_nova: What I am saying is that you just used a long stream of privileged language
15:49
Bertl
troy_s: do you have a link at hand?
15:50
intracube
think troy_s is suggestion not spending any significant extra time designing the camera to support various sensors
15:50
intracube
as an example
15:50
troy_s
"best" looks great and _everyone_ will agree on it because it is a privileged term
15:50
Bertl
yes, I agree that 'perfect' is the enemy of 'good'
15:50
troy_s
Bertl: Still privileged. Those are all comparisons.
15:50
dmj_nova
yeah, we have plans for the sensor to be on a separate board, but to not integrate additional sensors
15:51
Bertl
but I think that the key is in building a solid foundation
15:51
troy_s
Bertl: I just believe that context stands here as a blinking light. Why would I buy an Axiom?
15:51
dmj_nova
I just meant that we would try to ship as capable and competitive a device as we are able
15:52
troy_s
Right now, I can be blunt: What frame rate? What sized sensor? What latitude? What gamut?
15:52
troy_s
The rest is all bullshit.
15:52
Bertl
troy_s: ultimately, because it makes sense, given the ability to shape it :)
15:52
troy_s
Bertl: See my point?
15:53
troy_s
I have 5k to drop on a camera, and it is _that_ context that needs to shape the project
15:53
intracube
another question; is there going to be significant resources put into the recording side of the camera over the next year or so?
15:53
Sasha_C
troy_s: funny, I believe I also raised this exact question about an hour or so ago
15:54
intracube
or will most of the deveopment just be on the head (sensor + debayer + HDMI output + controls for aperture)?
15:54
troy_s
Given above, can I shoot on it tomorrow? Will it be plagued with problems?
15:54
dmj_nova
I think I also raise the same issue and hour ago :P
15:54
intracube
and use an off the shelf recording solution like: http://www.rcblogic.co.uk/p-2936-atomos-ninja-2-recorder.aspx
15:54
troy_s
(the cost of a camera is tiddly winks to cost of shooting)
15:55
intracube
troy_s: it depends on the type of production
15:55
troy_s
intracube: No. It does not.
15:55
Bertl
what we see here, is the problem that we already have several 'ballparks' and try to find common ground :)
15:55
intracube
obviously network TV drama, shows + film would drop 50 or 100K on a proven reliable camera
15:55
intracube
but there are plenty of indie shoots that don't have that budget
15:56
troy_s
intracube: Even wandering out into a field somewhere comes with a cost.
15:56
Bertl
for somebody spending $1mio on a movie, the camera equippments price is not that important I guess
15:56
troy_s
intracube: I have worked on enough projects to tell you that you are flat out wrong.
15:56
troy_s
intracube: Try feeding a teeny crew of ten for a month.
15:57
troy_s
intracube: And renting a teeny bit of lighting.
15:57
intracube
troy_s: but I'm not talking about that sort of production
15:57
troy_s
intracube: Or paying insurance on a teeny set of three lenses your friend loans you.
15:57
intracube
I'm talking about one step up from shooting on DSLR cams
15:57
Bertl
let's stop here and take a step back
15:57
troy_s
intracube: I am too.
15:57
Bertl
let's accept that there are many different applications and usage areas for a movie camera
15:58
Bertl
and with that, there come different price ranges
15:58
troy_s
Bertl: I am _specifically_ focusing on the exact niche you aim at.
15:58
Bertl
I'm not aiming at anything :)
15:58
troy_s
Bertl: Say a 5k-10k camera.
15:58
mars_
so what exactly is our target population?
15:59
troy_s
Bertl: Short film / cinema.
15:59
troy_s
Bertl: Fair context so far?
15:59
Bertl
my disadvantage (of not knowing the camera/movie scene) is my advantage here, I'm not that biased
15:59
philippejadin
joined the channel
15:59
troy_s
(I am certain having rexbron here would help now. He too is horrifically aware of the inherent costs)
16:00
Bertl
I agree that the apertus/axiom project has a much narrower target in mind than I do per se
16:00
Bertl
so what I learned is called 'indie movie' is probably the main target
16:01
troy_s
Bertl: Good. About what I described above.
16:01
troy_s
Bertl: And exactly what I just outlined. Given lower budgets, you are going to make trade offs (often on time or 'quality')
16:02
troy_s
Bertl: And given time (say more weekends because everyone is working during a week)
16:02
Bertl
but the thing I tried to point out is, that buying an axiom is like buying a cnc router not just a table saw
16:02
troy_s
(or your crew is skeleton)
16:03
Bertl
so just comparing it to table saws might not be that appropriate :)
16:03
troy_s
Bertl: And the benefits to an imager are what then?
16:03
Bertl
endless possibilities and customization
16:03
troy_s
And endless development time.
16:03
Bertl
of course, we don't want/need a bad sensor or ugly colors
16:04
troy_s
It can't live in Utopia forever.
16:04
Bertl
as a matter of fact, infinite development is what I have in mind
16:04
Bertl
doesn't mean that it isn't useful from the start
16:04
Sasha_C
troy_s: in the spirit of open source, development will be ongoing. But that doesn't mean you won't be able to use the software / hardware
16:04
troy_s
Bertl: But given a year, everyone moves on.
16:05
Bertl
it is a misconception that development means that the camera is not useable
16:05
troy_s
Bertl: Do you or I want to be shooting on a 20D?
16:05
troy_s
Bertl: How about a 7D?
16:05
troy_s
See my point?
16:06
Bertl
20 sounds a lot more than 7, no?
16:06
troy_s
(and I only am being extremely skeptical here because darnit if I am not likely precisely in your target audience.)
16:06
Bertl
and no, obviously I do not see your point, as I do not know those models
16:07
troy_s
Say I have 5k to drop on a camera. That means I have to evaluate my purchase. If I can _easily_ afford more, then I am likely not your estimated audience member.
16:07
Bertl
wrong
16:07
troy_s
So what will that 5k offer me? Ideological solace - not to be underrated - also has a fuzzy limit.
16:07
troy_s
Wrong?
16:08
Sasha_C
Bertl: in short, the 20d is an older, outdated digital camera from circa early 2000's. The 7D was THE hot DSLR from about 2009-2012 for so called indie film-makers
16:09
Bertl
while I agree that the main target is probably the poor movie maker which can only spend 5k on the camera, that doesn't mean that we do not offer significant advantages to high end customers as well
16:09
troy_s
(and I don't want to be antagonistic, but to cut to the bone with the contextual issues here)
16:09
troy_s
Bertl: Quit being so open ended :)
16:09
Bertl
and I appreciate that for sure
16:09
troy_s
Bertl: Use me. Here.
16:09
troy_s
Skip all the other bullshit
16:09
Bertl
so, why did you come here, for example?
16:10
troy_s
I have faith in _you_ as an engineer and I think your heart and mind is in a great spot. Let's move on and use a real world example...
16:10
Bertl
something must have brought and kept you here ... don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the input we got so far)
16:10
Sasha_C
Troy_s: Can you be more specific when you say "quit being so open ended"?
16:10
troy_s
rexbron and I are looking to purchase two cameras to shoot a short on in six months.
16:11
Bertl
okay, so what's wrong with the products out there?
16:11
troy_s
Sasha_C: I come from an art / design background. Trying to be everything to everyone is the downfall of all design. "open ended" tends to be symptomatic of such things.
16:11
troy_s
Bertl: BMC has fixed 24 fps.
16:11
Sasha_C
you mean jack of all trades, master of none
16:11
troy_s
Bertl: Smaller sensor
16:12
troy_s
Sasha_C: A bit of a eurowestern hypercapitalist idiom for me. I prefer "a lack of concrete design context"
16:12
Bertl
for sure there are models out there which do 8k at 200FPS and more, no?
16:12
troy_s
Sasha_C: (and the inherent tradeoffs each design choice has)
16:12
Bertl
(or 4k on really large sensors)
16:12
troy_s
Bertl: I can be happy with off speed and super 35 sensor
16:13
Bertl
so why axiom?
16:13
troy_s
Bertl: With 2k (real 2k, not R3D 2k)
16:13
Bertl
clearly we have no product to sell atm
16:13
troy_s
Bertl: Because that is precisely where the ideological edge comes in
16:13
Bertl
did we somehow deceive you? did you think we had a product?
16:14
troy_s
Bertl: I would take an Axiom with open raw (compare against a R3D for example) with those features.
16:14
Bertl
okay, so there is an obvious benefit from the 'open' part
16:14
troy_s
Bertl: So I _do_ believe that I would be interested in such a camera
16:14
Sasha_C
troy_s: I know exactly where you're coming from. However, try to think of the Axiom as like the Raspberry Pi
16:15
troy_s
Sasha_C: It isn't. It is a camera to shoot shorts / creatives / etc. on. I think the context is radically a world apart.
16:15
troy_s
Sasha_C: Largely because it must also "fit into" an existing ecosystem.
16:16
Bertl
and don't forget, the benefits you see in the (future) axiom are your personal benefits, there are many other benefits you won't use/acknoweledge immediately
16:16
Bertl
(but still they are there)
16:16
troy_s
Bertl: So if rexbron and I need two cameras, and let's assume you are past prototype, we care about when we could shoot.
16:16
Sasha_C
troy_s:the context is different, but the ideology of a device which you can control and reprogram for unconventional situations is what makes this similar to a raspberry pi
16:17
troy_s
Bertl: (and of course we would all need to agree that issues _will_ arise and we will try to negotiate them etc)
16:17
Bertl
troy_s: so you will have to shoot with an early prototype I guess, but still, that is within possibility
16:17
Bertl
(in contrast to products of the 'competition')
16:17
troy_s
Bertl: Exactly. That is progress. So ignoring "competition", when can we shoot?
16:18
Sasha_C
troy_s: As an example, the following image was captured with the 'frankencam" , which was programmed to capture multiple exposures with different sensitivities: http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/camera-2.0/images/cards-s.jpg
16:18
troy_s
Bertl: And not to be facetious here. I ask that hard question because it contextualizes all of the abstract into concrete reality.
16:18
Bertl
if there is enough interest, and the (crowd) funding goes well, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible in 6 months
16:18
Sasha_C
For more info on the Frankencam project: http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/camera-2.0/
16:19
troy_s
Bertl: And what set of "features" would that be given six months?
16:19
troy_s
(remember, I could care less about random Utopian ideals. I speak in concrete terms with hard limits and constraints.)
16:19
Bertl
if we get the minimum funding, and have to work in a really small team ... it might take 15 months
16:19
troy_s
Ok.
16:20
Bertl
the feature set really depends on the community
16:20
troy_s
I worry in the latter case.
16:20
Bertl
there is no point in focusing on a feature nobody wants
16:20
troy_s
Because it would be exceptionally hard to commit to shooting a year and a half away with 10k to spend.
16:20
Bertl
obviously receiving the data from the sensor and sending it out raw is the main focus
16:21
Bertl
so that I consider the 'essential' feature set
16:21
troy_s
(there is no nobody. Someone, somewhere will want Quake 2 codec for example :) Hence the need for hard context and hard constraints)
16:21
intracube
Bertl: what do you mean by raw? HDMI?
16:21
Sasha_C
troy_s: I'd strongly advise you not to plan your upcoming shoot around the availability of the AXIOM
16:21
Bertl
I doubt that hdmi will be part of the base set for several reasons
16:22
troy_s
Bertl: I am much more inclined to believe in the project the more limits I see actually.
16:22
troy_s
Sasha_C: It is a mental exercise
16:22
Bertl
raw high speed serial stream, probably SDI related
16:22
troy_s
Sasha_C: To strip the crap out of the air
16:22
Sasha_C
troy_s: sorry, my bad
16:22
intracube
Bertl: ah ok. so raw RGB data
16:22
Bertl
troy_s: sure, I'm all for it
16:23
Bertl
intracube: the raw, bayered data from the sensor
16:23
intracube
yup
16:23
Bertl
everything else can be done outside of axiom already
16:23
troy_s
Sasha_C: If I ask the hard question "in six months" I am reasonably sure it puts pressure on the thinking of all parties to commit to estimations and judgment. _That_ is good design thinking.
16:23
intracube
oh, -bayered- . I see
16:24
troy_s
Bertl: So what for onboard?
16:24
philippejadin
this woud not need a future upgrade to head imho
16:24
Bertl
troy_s: sensor management, data transport
16:24
Sasha_C
troy_s: I see. Thanks for clarifying :)
16:24
troy_s
Bertl: Viewfinder / onboard display?
16:24
Bertl
not in the beginning
16:24
troy_s
(my context of "onboard" there)
16:25
philippejadin
troy_s: think like this : http://www.ioindustries.com/provideo/products/index.html
16:26
troy_s
philippejadin: SDI would be preferable to HDMI for certain, but I am unaware of Bertl 's plan
16:27
Bertl
hdmi has two disadvantages for us ATM
16:27
Bertl
first the licensing issues and then the limit on the bandwidth
16:27
troy_s
I am merely asking the bare minimum shoot needs - body with onboard viewing and storage.
16:28
Bertl
let's assume we get SDI/Camera Link/whatever working fine
16:28
troy_s
Bertl: How far off is the SDI for you?
16:28
Bertl
then you can simply add an existing viewfinder
16:28
intracube
troy_s: but onboard storage and video preview isn't essential is it
16:28
intracube
http://www.rcblogic.co.uk/p-2947-atomos-samurai-blade-10-bit-hd-sdi-field-recorder-and-hd-monitor-retail-kit.aspx
16:29
philippejadin
see here : http://www.ioindustries.com/provideo/products/2ksdi_workflow.html
16:29
Bertl
troy_s: essential part of the first axiom prototype
16:29
troy_s
intracube: Just saying storage. Umbilical is just another design constraint.
16:34
Sasha_C
I've gotta head off and get some sleep now :(
16:34
troy_s
Bertl: When do you intend to lock down a harder timeframe? (I assume you need it for Kickindiego etc.)
16:35
Sasha_C
left the channel
16:35
Bertl
I guess we will start with a 'business plan' soon, but ATM we have to figure out the step size :)
16:36
Bertl
obviously the original plans were more like 2 year development then a final product, while I think that 3x(6-9) months or so might be a better choice
16:37
Bertl
with tangible targets and useful prototypes
16:37
troy_s
Bertl: Indeed. Amen.
16:37
troy_s
Bertl: 6 months. Smaller goals.
16:37
troy_s
Bertl: Tangible products.
16:37
Bertl
well, I've joined the project in august
16:37
troy_s
(and likely a plethora of learning in there)
16:38
Bertl
not knowing much about FPGAs and movie making/cameras ... I've learned quite a lot already :)
16:39
Bertl
from the projects I managed so far, I've also learned that it isn't the development which really affects the time frame
16:39
troy_s
What does?
16:39
Bertl
development, especially software development, scales quite beatifully with the number of developers
16:40
Bertl
the time consuming parts are more production related
16:40
Bertl
i.e. in the cycles from idea to actual product (even if it is just a prototype)
16:40
Bertl
just take the alpha prototype as example
16:41
troy_s
Bertl: Well you can get lost in the spiral of what-if
16:41
troy_s
Bertl: Hence why I find those hard / constrained real-world-with-faces-and-names examples much more illuminating.
16:42
troy_s
Bertl: It forces decisions, which in turn clarifies design.
16:42
troy_s
(either alienating audience members or attracting them)
16:43
Bertl
agreed, that's why I made a number of decisions for axiom alpha, ignoring many 'what if's and 'maybe we should's :)
16:44
Bertl
I'm also convinced that a release soon, release often policy is something necessary for such a project to succeed, and in our case, this includes the hardware as well
16:44
Bertl
the only unfortunate part is that hardware cannot be upgraded that easily
16:44
Bertl
(I mean the actual hardware, not firmware)
16:45
gcolburn
joined the channel
16:45
gcolburn
hello
16:45
Bertl
hello gcolburn!
16:45
gcolburn
so sebastian wanted me to commit fixes for the bayer pattern
16:46
gcolburn
are we sure the image looks correct with what we tried before?
16:46
Bertl
no, but I'm sure we have a number of folks here who would love to check :)
16:46
gcolburn
I tried it myself and the colors do seem off
16:46
gcolburn
do we have a photo on the internet of what it should look like?
16:46
Bertl
for the IT8 chart?
16:47
Bertl
(if so, just google IT8)
16:48
Bertl
and it might be a good idea to show the resulting image to troy_s, he knows a lot about this stuff
16:48
troy_s
Bertl: Have you considered less expensive sensors to step up to final?
16:48
troy_s
Bertl: Such as a sort of extremely-limited-but-not-quite-as-limited-and-slightly-more-expensive Flip camera?
16:49
troy_s
(with a lens mount)
16:49
troy_s
and work up to the final "ideal" that is currently there?
16:49
Bertl
yes, certainly has some advantages but doesn't give us any development advantage
16:49
troy_s
I am sure there is a tremendous mountain of learning in stepping which becomes hugelt valuable
16:50
troy_s
(like sorting out micro-targets (EG SDI, storage, etc.)
16:50
troy_s
(micro targets as it steps along and evolves)
16:51
troy_s
(as well as generating more faith and interest in an audience that may be able to contribute)
16:51
Bertl
that is the idea, but I don't think the sensor choice does really matter that much
16:51
troy_s
gcolburn: If you are familiar with how color works, you can generate a matrix from that it8
16:52
troy_s
Bertl: I threw it out as the "expensive" component
16:52
Bertl
I think the base unit (i.e. the central processing) will be realively cheap, and as we plan for exchangeable sensor boards, most likely, there will be a low cost frontend available soon
16:52
troy_s
Bertl: The cheapest and swiftest path to product (albeit likely crippled) to get first steps of growing pains out of the way
16:53
troy_s
Bertl: Something that also allows imagers to begin aiding in the inevitable mess of issues in a field environment
16:53
Bertl
so what kind of sensor do you have in mind for your project? :)
16:54
troy_s
Bertl: I could care less on a personal level. I would think that folks interested in imaging could exploit anything unique if there were such a trait.
16:55
troy_s
Bertl: But shooting is a great way to also get to tangible and interesting output (see the interest your first rudimentary images have generated)
16:55
philippejadin
hello gcolburn ! sorry for not following up with your work. How is it doing ?
16:55
troy_s
Bertl: Hell even a crippled and mangled imaging device can be quite interesting in creative hands.
16:56
Bertl
definitely
16:56
troy_s
(Matt Mahurin often shot using extremely gibbled bodies and broken lenses)
16:56
troy_s
Bertl: It is something certainly appealing if it can be integrated into an evolutionary line.
16:58
Bertl
gcolburn: it might be worth to try to simply flip the image outside the DNG
16:58
intracube_
joined the channel
16:58
Bertl
maybe the canon parts you copied do not work with the new color arrangement?
16:59
troy_s
Bertl: Folks like rexbron come from a slightly avant-garde background and I am certain that there are others that could make such an evolutionary path interesting.
16:59
philippejadin
I would center our work into finding a proper way to connect stuff. Sensor board to processing board to recorder. And allow people to interconnect different sensor boards versions to different processing boards version as well. And aditionaly I'd use an existing processing board for the second prototype as well. But that's just me :-)
16:59
Bertl
gcolburn: i.e. what I mean is, try to flip the raw data vertically and see if the original converter makes it look different/better?
17:00
intracube_
I've just been looking at the HD-SDI specs and it looks like there's no provision for anything other than 16:9
17:00
intracube_
at least not beyond standard definition
17:00
Bertl
troy_s: I'm all for it ... but to make it scale, everybody has to do what he/she does best in the interest of the common good/project
17:00
intracube_
will this make it difficult to support full frame output/recording?
17:01
intracube
left the channel
17:01
intracube_
changed nick to: intracube
17:01
troy_s
Bertl: I would expect things to progress the sooner you bolt down your needs.
17:01
Bertl
intracube_: first, we do not need to limit ourselves to a single protocol (as long as it is high speed serial)
17:02
Bertl
troy_s: my needs are something to work with, something to eat, a place to live and a challenge to tackle :)
17:03
philippejadin
Bertl, gcolburn, have you seen this already : https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/src/570c301158185f8dd29372ae7260d88bfda49c1c/src/chdk-dng.c?at=unified (dng writing routines from chdk, adapted for magic lantern use, gpl)
17:03
Bertl
troy_s: but I get what you mean
17:03
intracube
but I guess once you move away from the most common (HDMI/SDI) it means there isn't the same availability/choice of off-the-shelf recording systems
17:03
troy_s
Bertl: *cough* for the camera iteration
17:03
troy_s
:)
17:04
Bertl
intracube: that is the point which seems to be exceptionally hard to communicate
17:04
troy_s
intracube: Quite sure 4:3 is supported via SDI transport
17:04
Bertl
let me take this as an example to illustrate it
17:04
troy_s
intracube: Peek at the Alexa Studio
17:04
Bertl
let's assume, we put four SDI connectors on the prototype
17:04
Bertl
(those are basically BNC connectors)
17:04
intracube
troy_s: I'm just going on what the HD-SDI wiki page says :)
17:05
Bertl
let's also assume we implement HD-SDI ontop of the physical interface
17:05
Bertl
(so you now can connect your favorite SDI recorder/view finder/whatever)
17:05
intracube
troy_s: and the tech specs for kit like this: http://www.rcblogic.co.uk/p-2947-atomos-samurai-blade-10-bit-hd-sdi-field-recorder-and-hd-monitor-retail-kit.aspx
17:06
Bertl
now for some reason, we figure that this doesn't allow us to do 150FPS @ 4K :)
17:06
Bertl
but that doesn't mean that we can't do it, we just need to utilize the SDI outputs differently
17:07
intracube
Bertl: true, but it makes post production that much more complex
17:07
Bertl
now the important part is, this does not mean that we drop the SDI compatibility
17:07
Bertl
it might mean that you need to use different firmware for one or the other
17:07
Bertl
it might even mean that you need a simple hardware addon/plugin/module
17:08
intracube
troy_s: from arri site: "4:3 is currently only available for ARRIRAW; a pillar box format is used for 16:9 EVF-1 as well as HD-SDI MON OUT; ProRes or DNxHD recording is currently not supported."
17:08
Bertl
but it will not require a new model :)
17:08
troy_s
intracube: All that matters is the onboard image for SDI
17:09
troy_s
intracube: Not transport for native raw file
17:10
troy_s
intracube: SDI for onboard / monitor out. The actual file dumped via other.
17:10
intracube
Bertl: troy_s: oh ok.
17:11
troy_s
(or the chained SDI for file funkyness)
17:11
troy_s
Bertl: So are you thinking a chained SDI for file dumping?
17:11
troy_s
(something like you outline above)
17:11
Bertl
yes, definitely
17:11
troy_s
Gotcha
17:12
Bertl
the zynq design might allow for a few neat things
17:12
gcolburn
sorry, I had to step out to handle some issues at work
17:12
troy_s
Bertl: Then a funky decoder to get it into a suitable file shape
17:12
troy_s
ditto.
17:12
troy_s
Ciao all.
17:12
Bertl
like for example using the serdes high speed ports for other serial protocols
17:13
Bertl
maybe even directly for attaching storage devices at some point
17:13
Bertl
(but the first step is simple high speed serial out, everything else comes later)
17:14
gcolburn
philippejadin:That code looks nice and short. We might be able to modify that for a C version
17:21
philippejadin
Bertl, it means if we have 4 bnc connectors connected to serdes, we are pretty much settled for anything at a later point
17:22
philippejadin
gcolburn: and it is used excusively for cinema dng post processing, so it's a perfect fir for us
17:22
philippejadin
(fit)
17:22
Bertl
to some degree, yes, if those 4 connectors are on a separate I/O board, even better, we then can simply exchange that board to allow for SATA or hdmi out
17:23
philippejadin
could we create a small bnc to sata adapter?
17:23
Bertl
that wouldn't really work because of differences in the termination
17:24
philippejadin
said in another way, can we transport the high speed signal using bnc connectors ?
17:24
Bertl
but having a small board which connects the high speed serial ports to BNC/SDI or SATA or hdmi would work
17:24
philippejadin
when I say bnc, I'm only talking about the physical, locking connectors
17:25
Bertl
yes, I understand, but serial protocols consist of two parts
17:26
Bertl
the physical connection and the electrical _and_ the serial protocol itself
17:26
philippejadin
sata and sdi are electricaly different I guess?
17:26
Bertl
precisely
17:27
philippejadin
could there be a way to switch between the two?
17:27
philippejadin
like doing the proper termination for both standards, and allow on the fly switching?
17:27
Bertl
with additional components probably
17:28
Bertl
but I think it will be a lot easier to just have something like I/O shields
17:28
Bertl
which connect to the high speed ports of the FPGA and provide the required termination and physical connection to the outside)
17:28
philippejadin
with 4 serdes on board and different termination circuitry, we might have everythin we need in a camera head we don't even need to physically open
17:28
philippejadin
it's a big deal for reliability imho
17:29
Bertl
I don't think that is something we want to do, at least not in the beginning
17:29
philippejadin
4 ports = 2 sata, 1 clean sdi, 1 sdi with menu
17:29
philippejadin
or any other combination
17:30
philippejadin
I think it's much more simple than the big connectors in the current open design concept
17:30
Bertl
it is already hard to get one protocol right at those speeds, making a number of them work seamlessly together side by side won't be doable within a short amount of time
17:31
Bertl
there would be an enormous amount of comformance testing and similar
17:31
philippejadin
I'm just thinking about having future proof hardware as soon as possible
17:32
Bertl
yes, but havin a proper I/O interface and a special SDI I/O module (or SDI/SATA module later on) is a lot more future proof and easier to do
17:32
philippejadin
4 high speed serial out, and a single usb or i2c or wathever control protocol is already covering a huge amount of uses
17:38
philippejadin
how would this io interface connect to the camera head?
17:38
Bertl
via the module interface/connectors
17:39
philippejadin
is possible to transmit the signal over a short (20 cm) wire?
17:40
Bertl
a lot of things are 'possible'
17:41
philippejadin
practical ? :-)
17:41
se6astian
I ll be leaving for the theatre shortly and have only been following with one eye from time to time
17:41
Bertl
the one eyed se6astian will leave us shortly :)
17:42
philippejadin
so be it!
17:42
se6astian
my coment on all this (no paticular topic) is that we have had similar discussions in the last 2-4 years with different people multiple times already (the technical details changed a bit over time)
17:42
Bertl
philippejadin: why would you want to do that? :)
17:43
se6astian
So I want to investigate a method/workflow to make sure we can always advance the discussion on the results achieved prior
17:43
se6astian
to prevent us going in circles
17:43
philippejadin
yep
17:43
se6astian
I guess the wiki could be a place
17:44
philippejadin
there are some new stuff : how to provide something quicker - cheaper / that can be expanded / with easy to use (and hard to mis-design)connectors
17:44
se6astian
but someone would be required who always summarized all the things discussed, with good structuring and not just writing the results but also the path to get there
17:44
philippejadin
I' will do my homework (reading this http://www.xilinx.com/publications/archives/books/serialio.pdf ) and come back to you :-)
17:45
se6astian
so in the end we would need to document a lot of stuff that we ruled out so that at a later point we can go back there and clearly see why we ruled it out exactly
17:45
se6astian
one eye off for now :)
17:46
Bertl
have fun!
17:46
se6astian
thanks
17:46
se6astian
left the channel
17:46
Bertl
philippejadin: good choice
17:47
Bertl
(although a little biased, but that's fine in our case)
17:47
philippejadin
:-)
17:48
philippejadin
I'm eager to believe their marketing stuff about how great and powerful their builtin serial io is
17:49
gcolburn
Bertl: How hard would it be to shoot the IT8 outside in daylight conditions?
17:49
gcolburn
I think that would help with checking the color
17:56
Bertl
gcolburn: atm, very hard
17:56
gcolburn
okay. that's what I figured. it might be worth first trying to neutralize the camera calibration
17:57
Bertl
but I think the ~2900K illumination should give useable results
18:00
gcolburn
I'll try and back out what the current calibration illumination temperatures are in the file
18:00
gcolburn
there are calibrations for two temps right now
18:08
gcolburn
1 calibration is for standard illuminant A (about 2856 k), the other is for D65
18:27
troy_s
gcolburn: The color temp of shooting conditions has no real imoact
18:28
troy_s
gcolburn: The quality of the light source certainly, but of little consequence at this juncture.
18:29
gcolburn
but the colors should come out reasonable
18:29
troy_s
gcolburn: And given Bertl used a household tungsten bulb, guess what illuminant it nearly will match...
18:29
troy_s
gcolburn: Uh what?*?*
18:29
gcolburn
right now the IF8 chart image doesn't seem to look like reasonable colors. I can't get the background area to come out grey for example
18:30
troy_s
gcolburn: You are looking at unprofiled sensor data via (likely) a rough and uncalibrated sRGB display... that amounts to zero chance of even remote color accuracy
18:30
troy_s
because it is an unprofiled sensor!!!
18:31
Bertl
I think the important part is that red is red and green, green and blue comes out as blue :)
18:31
troy_s
You are taking one set of arbitrary display referred values (the sensor - min to max) and arbitrarily feeding them to another display referred context (sRGB ideally, and likely unlike sRGB) with no transform
18:31
troy_s
you have no idea how color works then
18:31
gcolburn
what I should mention incase you missed it, is in my DNG writer that I wrote it seemed that photoshop/lightroom requires a camera calibration. for quick testing I just used the profile out of a Canon camera. The first images Bertl sent I was able to adjust the whiteblaance and get a reasonable image. but since the pixel order has change, I'm not getting a reasonable image on the IF8 chart
18:31
troy_s
Would you like me to explain?
18:32
troy_s
The sensor is _unknown_
18:32
gcolburn
so I know the calibration is different, I'm just trying to verify the correct bayer pattern for the new images
18:33
troy_s
not the calibration - no such creature
18:33
Bertl
troy_s: the question atm is more, how do we get a quick and dirty calibration for the dng writer?
18:33
troy_s
the profile of the sensor is unknown
18:33
gcolburn
right
18:34
Bertl
i.e. can we deduce that from the IT8 chart?
18:34
Bertl
(I'd say, to some degree, yes)
18:34
Bertl
also, do we need different lighting setups to do that? (note it doesn't have to be perfect atm)
18:35
troy_s
Bertl: Sorry was in hotel elevator
18:35
troy_s
You take the IT8 image
18:36
gcolburn
if you use two profiles with very different temperatures the raw converter can interpolate better
18:36
gcolburn
but one is enough to get started
18:36
troy_s
and your known white point (and assuming Bertl used a standard tungsten fixture we can estimate it is 2800-2900)
18:36
troy_s
and calculate a profile for the sensor.
18:36
troy_s
gcolburn: That is all moot
18:36
troy_s
gcolburn: There is ZERO estimation if you do not know the constants - hence the IT8 and color temp
18:37
philippejadin
have you tried passing it in http://www.argyllcms.com/ ?
18:37
troy_s
Argyll can be used to estimate
18:37
troy_s
(albeit within the bounds of a D50 v2 PCS)
18:37
Bertl
excellent, so please give that a try and coordinate to avoid duplication
18:38
philippejadin
tutorial here :
18:38
philippejadin
http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/Scenarios.html#PS1
18:38
troy_s
exactly
18:38
troy_s
I was JUST about to paste that
18:38
troy_s
LOL
18:38
philippejadin
but if you see complete garbage, it means the wrong filter order is in the dng file ?
18:39
Bertl
no, we kind of 'guessed' that I think
18:39
philippejadin
I mean, which color is the first pixel and stuff like that
18:39
troy_s
philippejadin: It isn't garbage
18:39
troy_s
philippejadin: RGB is arbitrary and meaningless
18:39
troy_s
philippejadin: Red could very well represent a green when viewed in sRGB and untransformed
18:40
philippejadin
well, at a lower level, if you don't present the bits in the correct order, it will result in garbage
18:40
troy_s
Absolutely
18:41
troy_s
but from what I have seen of Bertl's images, they aren't random noise so it is merely about transforming primaries
18:41
troy_s
(and TRC)
18:41
philippejadin
random noise is another mater
18:41
philippejadin
probably something to take care at a later stage
18:42
gcolburn
well if someone creates a profile for the sensor I'd be happy to put it in the DNG converter
18:42
philippejadin
and this will be needed per camera (per sensor). Color profile creation, I don't know if it must be done for each sensor
18:42
gcolburn
Adobe uses standard profiles for each type of sensor. they go to a lot of work to make their own profiles and ship with with Photoshop RAW and Lightroom
18:43
gcolburn
but you don't have to use theirs
18:43
troy_s
gcolburn: You really don't get it.
18:43
troy_s
gcolburn: Adobe has no clue what is going on in that image
18:43
troy_s
zero
18:43
Bertl
philippejadin: I guess, for now, all we need is a basic sensor profile
18:43
Bertl
(doesn't even have to be accurate, just same ballpark)
18:43
troy_s
that sensor has yet to be profiled (by nearly anyone I bet)
18:44
philippejadin
then, altough I've never used it, I think argyllcms is the tool to use
18:44
troy_s
Bertl: Getting an approximate matrix is not too complex.
18:44
gcolburn
I'm not talking about Adobe knowing about the CMV12000
18:44
gcolburn
I'm talking about general cameras on the Market
18:44
troy_s
gcolburn: So explain how that pertains to interpreting the data off of the 12000?
18:44
Bertl
troy_s: we'll improve on that later when we can do proper images with controlled lighting
18:45
gcolburn
it doesn't. I was answering philippe's question regarding a profile for each sensor or per type of sensor if I understood his question correctly.
18:45
troy_s
Right now, the data Bertl offers is a triplet of ints. It happens to be stored in RGB triplets, but even if the term R ROUGHLY represented red, you have no idea what red.
18:46
troy_s
gcolburn: So in short someone (I am on the road) needs to take the data and generate a transformation matrix for the primaries
18:46
troy_s
gcolburn: Once we have that, we can estimate gamut volume etc.
18:46
gcolburn
can you explain how the CMV12000 data is in a triplet of ints? its in a bayer array
18:46
troy_s
gcolburn: It is an exceptionally common error to assume that RGB values are absolute. RGB color models are _not_ absolute color spaces
18:47
gcolburn
I know RGB values are not absolute
18:47
Bertl
gcolburn: I can explain that by now :)
18:47
troy_s
gcolburn: Each bayer sensel is stored in an integer "well"
18:47
troy_s
depending on bit depth
18:48
troy_s
Each sensel is filtered by an arbitrary filter color / tint
18:49
gcolburn
yes. the sensor has a 12 bit A/D converter. Bertl is mapping the data to 16 bit in memory. Every other pixel has a green filter, the ones in between have red or green
18:49
Bertl
red or blue
18:49
gcolburn
sorry
18:49
gcolburn
that's what I meant
18:49
philippejadin
aren't we supposed to know the filter that is on each pixel ?
18:49
Bertl
but it is important, that those are not precise wavelengths
18:49
gcolburn
yes
18:49
gcolburn
there is a spectral response for each filter
18:49
Bertl
i.e. the camera would not work if it were a single red/green/blue
18:49
gcolburn
difference for each manufacturer
18:50
gcolburn
right
18:50
philippejadin
this brings us back to creating a color profile
18:50
troy_s
philippejadin: Impossible
18:50
Bertl
and the RGB reresentation does not cover all the colors either (that is what troy_s is referring to)
18:50
gcolburn
because the light incident on the camera is a spectrum of wavelengths. based on how are vision works with rods and cones, and what our eyes are sensitive to RGB are the primary filters used
18:51
troy_s
bingo
18:51
troy_s
And all devices, even with known filters, respond differently
18:51
troy_s
(Much like displays. Hence why if you do color critical work you need to profile them)
18:52
philippejadin
as I see it, you have a reference shot, and a known representation of it (included with the color profile creation tool), so you can create a color profile
18:52
troy_s
So known values need to be photographed and a CIE model absolute set of values provided
18:52
gcolburn
troy_s:I understand all this, I think you have just been misunderstanding me some how. perhaps I haven't been clear in when I was talking about the CMV12000, verse the general raw conversion process
18:52
troy_s
Then you can take the data and infer the transform - most linear devices like a sensor respond relatively uniformly except near the edges
18:53
philippejadin
it will at least work with this sensor and herbert's light :-)
18:53
Bertl
precisely :)
18:53
troy_s
gcolburn: Well I apologize but I was a little concerned when I saw "roughly close" - there is no way to get to roughly close without a unique transform.
18:54
gcolburn
true. I was surprised that the first images (that had a different pixel read out order than the new ones) were able to achieve a "roughly close" image when I set the white balance
18:55
philippejadin
(without counting all the sensor registers that might have some influences as well :-()
18:55
troy_s
gcolburn: For all intents and purposes, the data in the Green sensel position could very well be very far away from greenish if you view it dumped to sRGB. (and a way out of whack TRC)
18:56
gcolburn
yeah. we just need to get a profile and go from there
18:56
philippejadin
gcolburn: maybe the sensor provides "roughly close" colors when using fluo lights. Bertl did you use he same light for the tape picture and the IT8 ref cart ?
18:57
troy_s
gcolburn: That would be relative to your display, and even then, that only suggests that (assuming the data isn't broken) that the values are roughly close to the primaries of your display, which unless you have profiled it, aren't even likely close to sRGB.
18:57
Bertl
philippejadin: nope, the color bars were illuminated by a TFT screen
18:57
philippejadin
hahaa!
18:57
philippejadin
much colder
18:57
troy_s
philippejadin: It is all hypothesis as we don't even have a reference point on the display viewed. LOL
18:58
troy_s
crap
18:58
troy_s
Bertl: So it isn't even a tungsten bul!
18:58
mars_
tbh, i like the brown tint on my main display ^^
18:58
troy_s
bulb?!
18:58
Bertl
the IT8 is
18:58
Bertl
the tape color bars weren't
18:58
troy_s
oh phew
18:58
troy_s
lol
18:58
troy_s
Gotcha
18:58
philippejadin
fortunately we won't profile using the tape
18:59
troy_s
Anyways... tungsten bulb of about 100watts and an IT8 will get a close ballpark idea
18:59
Bertl
philippejadin: although it might be a lot cheaper :)
18:59
Bertl
troy_s: that's what I used
18:59
troy_s
It can get finessed as the needs dictate and the camera gets more mobile.
19:02
gcolburn
troy_s: do you think you could make a profile for us from the IT8 chart image?
19:02
philippejadi
imagine that some day the camera could auto profile during a shoot using a test chart
19:04
Bertl
that is probably not so far off :)
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troy_s
left the channel
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19:06
troy_s1
QUASSEL
19:07
troy_s1
I may have missed a chunk of conversation. Apologies.
19:07
troy_s
joined the channel
19:07
gcolburn
no problem
19:07
gcolburn
troy_s: do you think you could make a profile for us from the IT8 chart image?
19:10
troy_s1
gcolburn: If I weren't trapped on location with no computer sure. :)
19:10
troy_s1
gcolburn: You seem very well equipped though, and I could assist.
19:11
troy_s1
gcolburn: I would suggest getting a matrix off of Bertl's raw data, and confirming. Then test your DNG against that.
19:11
troy_s1
(To eliminate errors that might have crept into the DNG conversion)
19:11
troy_s1
Better, having another head in the color side is a much better win.
19:14
gcolburn
yeah if there is some free software you recommend to create the profile with you can walk me through it
19:15
troy_s1
gcolburn: Let me try to find a decent link. That Argyll link is good enough to start.
19:16
troy_s1
gcolburn: As we can't move the camera, and as long as Bertl uses the same lamp, our color temp is constant. You can also estimate color temp from the neutral IT8 swatches if you get adept at the process.
19:17
troy_s1
(We know it is roughly 2800k)
19:17
troy_s1
gcolburn: Here is another link using Argyll http://stephenstuff.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/digital-camera-profiling-with-raw-therapee-and-argyll-cms/
19:19
philippejadin
gotta go, happy profiling guys !
19:19
philippejadin
left the channel
19:20
troy_s1
gcolburn: Although his primaries extend off into XYZ imaginarys, so I worry :)
19:21
troy_s1
gcolburn: Try the basic Argyll steps, and then we can move onto calculating a more neutral matrix by figuring out the white point
19:21
troy_s1
(The matrix you will have will have the color temp baked into it)
19:22
troy_s1
(If we estimate the white point after that, we can unbake the light's color temp out and get a reasonable estimate of the sensor)
19:22
troy_s1
And now I must go. Back soonish.
19:22
troy_s1
Private messages are most ideal for Quassel to prevent me from scrolling back.
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