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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/07/14

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Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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se6astian|away
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se6astian
good morning
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Bertl
morning folks!
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se6astian
time for some supermarket shopping
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Bertl
if you buy one, please take one for me as well :)
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se6astian
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Bertl
wb
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se6astian
I have the supermarket home with me now, should bing it over sometime soon? :P
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Bertl
yes, pretty please :)
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se6astian
writing reply to steffany now
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Bertl
good, blame everything on me :)
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se6astian
that was the plan :D
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Topic
apertus° - open source cinema | www.apertus.org | Currently Hot: AXIOM Beta https://apertus.org/axiom-beta | IRC Logs available at: http://irc.apertus.org
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Topic
apertus° - open source cinema | www.apertus.org | Currently Hot: AXIOM Beta https://apertus.org/axiom-beta | IRC Logs available at: http://irc.apertus.org
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se6astian
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se6astian
time for bed
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se6astian
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22:21
Neferstefany
here
22:22
Bertl
hey
22:22
Neferstefany
Hello
22:22
Neferstefany
what up?
22:23
Bertl
currently working on an I/O shield carrier board for the Beta
22:23
Bertl
what's up on your end?
22:24
Neferstefany
Well, have seen my email that I wrote yesterday as well as my conversation with Sebastian this morning (my time of course)
22:24
Neferstefany
In a nutshell, I was trying to wrap my head about the idea of investing time in this project and also being able to have access to a camera...
22:25
Neferstefany
But it became clear that finishing my camera and spending time on this one is not a mutually exclusive idea...
22:26
Bertl
good to hear that, btw I wrote the first reply :)
22:26
Neferstefany
Hold on, when ?
22:26
Neferstefany
I am a bit confused
22:26
Bertl
I'm Herbert
22:27
Neferstefany
I know, but are you refering to this morning email?
22:27
Neferstefany
You were the one who first reply to me when I first wrote
22:27
Bertl
no, I didn't reply after that, because I wanted to avoid even more confusion :)
22:28
Bertl
obviously my initial reply was confusing enough for you
22:28
Bertl
(probably a language problem, I'm obviously not a native speaker)
22:28
Neferstefany
that's okay... I think we can assume that we passed that stage
22:28
Neferstefany
So am I
22:29
Neferstefany
I guess we can look forward from now on...
22:29
Bertl
excellent! so where do we start?
22:29
Neferstefany
I don't know... can you give me a small update about where you are in the development?
22:29
Neferstefany
and what are the short terms goal?
22:30
Neferstefany
Sebastian was talking about maybe replacing the CMV12000 with a KAC-12040
22:30
Bertl
yes, well, let me give you a quick history about the axiom and then I'll get to what we are doing right now, yes?
22:31
Neferstefany
sure
22:31
Neferstefany
btw, I speak french too, although I am not as efficient in french as I am in English even as a second language
22:31
Bertl
no french here :/
22:31
Neferstefany
German, I supposed
22:32
Bertl
the project started years ago, when oscar decided he wanted a camera, not unlike you
22:32
Bertl
sebastian was working with elphel back then (the google cameras)
22:32
Neferstefany
okay
22:32
Bertl
and so they decided to team up and work on some kind of open source/hardware camera
22:33
Bertl
(not just on that but also on movie making related software)
22:33
Neferstefany
k
22:33
Bertl
there were some contributions (a lens mount design) and a lot of different ideas
22:33
Bertl
at some point, the elphel cameras turned out to be insufficient (low resolution, etc) for the goal
22:34
Neferstefany
sure
22:34
Bertl
that was when 'they' decided to actually design a new camera from scratch
22:35
Bertl
again, some ideas but no real development on the camera followed, and last summer, sebastian decided to post to a local fab mailing list
22:35
Bertl
that he is looking for somebody who can do FPGA development
22:35
Neferstefany
okay
22:35
Bertl
incidentially that was the same time when I decided to start with FPGAs
22:36
Bertl
so I replied to him, that I do not know anything about FPGAs but I'd like to work with them
22:36
Neferstefany
cool
22:36
Bertl
we arranged a meeting (dinner) and a day after that, I had a zedboard on my table :)
22:37
Neferstefany
good! that's how things happen
22:37
Bertl
well, long story short, six months later we had a newly designed sensor frontend board and live video from the sensor via HDMI
22:38
Neferstefany
sweet, was the HDMI out a 4K output or a 2K? (HD)
22:38
Bertl
the zedboard features an adv7511 HDMI chip which is only fullHD capable
22:39
Bertl
and we had to use that, because all the other pins were already used up by the sensor interface
22:39
Bertl
so we are capturing 4k, at up to 60 FPS
22:39
Bertl
but we are only able to output full HD with the zedboard
22:39
Neferstefany
okay
22:40
Bertl
but it was a proof of concept and we actually surpassed our initial goals with that one
22:40
Bertl
i.e. we wanted to see (and show) that we can actually pull it off
22:40
Neferstefany
It is pretty amazing considering that you never touched FPGA before
22:41
Bertl
I'm a fast learner and it was a fun journey
22:41
Neferstefany
I am sure it was... I did the same at some point...
22:41
Neferstefany
Some time before I touched a CMV12000
22:41
Neferstefany
which turned out to be a nightmare to deal with
22:41
Bertl
so, once the AXIOM Alpha (the proof of concept) was working, we basically started touring and looking for folks interested to join
22:42
Neferstefany
and when was that?
22:42
Bertl
that was shortly after new year, this year
22:42
Neferstefany
okay, did you convert a lot of people?
22:42
Neferstefany
;)
22:42
Bertl
we realized very soon that we need to build a camera development kit (as I call it)
22:43
Neferstefany
okay
22:43
Bertl
because folks started to rebuild the Alpha, which wasn't designed for that
22:43
Bertl
and we also didn't want to spend time on building more prototypes of the Alpha variant
22:43
Neferstefany
k
22:43
Bertl
this is how the AXIOM Beta (idea) was born
22:44
Bertl
i.e. we wanted something which is small, simple to recreate, and very powerful
22:44
Neferstefany
Of course! ;) isn't it the always what we want!
22:44
Bertl
the Beta is based on the microzed, which is roughly 5 by 10cm
22:45
Bertl
and it will feature all kind of fancy gimmicks for hackers, developers and of course, early adopters
22:45
Bertl
a note here: we are trying to build a platform not just a camera, so it is important not to target only a minority
22:46
Neferstefany
I understand
22:46
danieel
what is a platform and what is a minority in that sentence?
22:47
Bertl
platform means something which can be built upon, and minority would be the hackers (only)
22:47
Bertl
Neferstefany: meet danieel, our 'competition' :)
22:48
Neferstefany
and who is the competition? somebody else is doing that too?
22:48
danieel
i see very limited possibility to build upon such choice
22:48
Bertl
well, no, actually he is building his own proprietary camera, but I guess he can explain it better
22:48
danieel
somebody else having a running kac12040 :)
22:48
Neferstefany
What? is this a competition or something?
22:49
Neferstefany
the KAC is not that difficult to design with
22:49
Neferstefany
try the AR1411
22:49
danieel
well, my design choices are made more into future, and I can use "secret" devices, while axiom tries to avoid NDA parts
22:49
Bertl
unfortuately he is not interested in sharing his designs, for various reasons, but I consider him a valuable addition to our mix, as he always has critical input
22:49
danieel
as well as process choice is not "build in your kitchen"
22:50
danieel
ar1411 is not interesting, isnt it a rolling shutter only?
22:50
Neferstefany
You know, I for one just want to have a camera to shoot movie with the best sensor I can find at a reasonable price and because I am technical and I have a very good base right now, I can certainly reach that goal... If I can help others along the way, well so be it
22:51
Neferstefany
Its funny... I was probably amongst the first to design with a global shutter and back then everybody was only swearing by rolling shutter, not things have changed... obviously
22:52
danieel
which sensor?
22:52
Neferstefany
You know, I would change a Global shutter for a 1 stop of Dynamic Range any day of the week
22:52
Bertl
yeah, rolling shutter sucks
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jucar
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22:52
Bertl
even the high end cameras now build work arounds for the rolling shutter
22:52
Neferstefany
@danieel: I started my design with the CMV2000 when it was still hot back then
22:53
danieel
depends how fast you roll :) sometimes it can be accepted, it still got less noise
22:53
danieel
and does it perform the same as 12000 or better?
22:53
Neferstefany
I just want to have a global shutter before and now, I could not care less, I want pixels, Color Depth and a lot of Dynamic range...
22:53
danieel
i have some doubts in cmosis QC
22:53
Neferstefany
the 2000 sucked as much as the 12000 do
22:54
Neferstefany
a lot of noise in the background
22:54
Bertl
Interesting to hear that
22:54
danieel
they dont have hw based correction.. so that is understandable
22:54
danieel
cmosis is raw cmos :)
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jucar
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22:54
Neferstefany
it is a tricky sensor to adjust
22:55
Bertl
no, actually they do some correction in the cmv12k
22:55
Neferstefany
and lot of post processing to get a decent image
22:55
Bertl
correct
22:55
Neferstefany
so what is the point to pay for an over priced sensor and to have pay extra for FPGA power... that's my question right now
22:55
Bertl
obviously film makers love the 'look' the cmv12k has
22:56
danieel
that cant be true bert :)
22:56
Bertl
we hear that every time
22:56
Neferstefany
So, there is more offering now, Altasens, Trusense, Aptina and CMOSIS, all of them have their kwarks but there is hope to get a decent sensor
22:56
danieel
forgot one :)
22:56
Bertl
we are limiting ourselves to sensors where documentation doesn't require any NDA
22:57
Neferstefany
none-technical film make are most of them a bunch of Whores
22:57
Neferstefany
@Bert1, I understand, in your case, it is more difficult
22:57
Neferstefany
filmmakers uses what everybody use
22:57
Neferstefany
Gopro suck, but at some point everybody hated it and now, they are fucking making feature film with it...
22:58
Neferstefany
before that it was Red
22:58
Neferstefany
it always the same story
22:58
danieel
and in between canon
22:58
Neferstefany
YES! ;)
22:58
Neferstefany
How many camera in the market right now, a gazillion! ;)
22:58
Bertl
hehe, yeah, so it seems ... so, back to axiom, we are currently designing and testing various parts for the axiom beta, which will soon get a crowdfunding campain to fund the development
22:59
Neferstefany
That's an interesting idea... I am not much of a social network person, but how do you plan on dealing with the perks?
22:59
Bertl
for example we are testing the power supply as well as options for clocking and various I/O parts
23:00
Neferstefany
good
23:00
Bertl
we have created a list of different perks for the beta, starting from small to large
23:00
danieel
have you figured out sdi? :)
23:00
Bertl
I haven't done any SDI yet
23:01
Neferstefany
that's what I proposing to do
23:01
Neferstefany
the SDI and hdmi in 4k
23:01
danieel
hdmi in 4k is not really happening
23:01
Bertl
hdmi should be already covered, at least the encoding
23:01
Neferstefany
? in 4K?
23:02
danieel
4:2:0 in 60p is somehow not meeting my standards
23:02
Neferstefany
I am talking about 4:4:4
23:02
Neferstefany
the real hdmi 2.0
23:02
Bertl
Neferstefany: doesn't matter, it all boils down to TMDS 8/10 encoding
23:02
Bertl
the rest is just timing and I/O lanes
23:02
danieel
there is no real hdmi 2.0 (6G) hardware out there
23:03
danieel
even if we could output it by gtp's, you cant view nor record it
23:03
Neferstefany
Got a tv at work which a hdmi 2.0
23:03
danieel
sony? :)
23:03
Neferstefany
LG
23:03
Bertl
Neferstefany: that is good to know :)
23:04
Neferstefany
if you do DP there are a bunch of them out there, I am getting mine tomorrow
23:04
Neferstefany
28" UHD, 60P Display Port
23:04
Neferstefany
cheap too
23:04
danieel
DP is a smarter choice
23:04
Neferstefany
but you can do DP with a core from xilinx, no real effort there
23:05
Neferstefany
and so SDI
23:05
danieel
but you still need suitable hardware
23:05
Neferstefany
what do you mean?
23:05
danieel
the chip on the selected microzed board (by axiom) does not have any high-speed links
23:06
Neferstefany
That's a problem... But I thought the whole platform was a module approach, so my thoughts were to have a module with a Artix with Serdes that could do all that
23:06
Bertl
yes, that you can do
23:06
Neferstefany
That's was my idea...
23:06
danieel
mine too... so here comes the reality why I am a competitor :)
23:07
Neferstefany
In a way, I am competitor too? I do have my own camera design
23:07
Neferstefany
;)
23:07
danieel
fight! :)
23:07
Neferstefany
to the sword!
23:07
danieel
where are you at then?
23:08
Neferstefany
Me, well, at some point I had a CMV12000 working with some SDI and SSD recorder
23:09
Neferstefany
but I had a Eng Sample of the CMV12000 which is crap and I wanted changed it but a lot of things happened in my life so I had to shelve it
23:09
danieel
10b legal sdi? i did similar with kac12040, but raw data over sdi (12bit)
23:09
Neferstefany
So, now I want to go back on it, change the sensor either to a 4K or 3K and finish the recorder so I can record in full 12Bits raw no compression and get my PCI express interface working...
23:13
Bertl
good, so what else can I tell you and what do you plan to do in the near future (with or without axiom :)
23:15
Neferstefany
Well, I have a day job... so that takes care of that. In the near future, I would like to design a KAC board for my camera that would support the 12M and 6M sensor they have now... and start looking at your project... again, my idea would be to make a module with a small Artix the 35 I guess and do the sDI and HDMI
23:16
Bertl
okay, so basically an SDI I/O shield for the Beta, yes?
23:17
Bertl
and some kind of healthy information exchange regarding the sensor
23:17
Neferstefany
it that the way you call the module?
23:17
Neferstefany
I/O Shield?
23:18
Neferstefany
which one? (sensor)
23:18
Bertl
it doesn't have a name yet, but yes, here is roughly how it will look
23:18
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/io_shield_r.png
23:19
Neferstefany
Do you have a larger view of the concept (a picture) I am not sure If I understand it
23:19
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/beta_pre03_1900x1040.png
23:20
Bertl
this image is actually LR flipped
23:20
Neferstefany
OKay hold on... What about the modular approach?
23:20
Neferstefany
is this a platform for development?
23:20
Bertl
yep
23:20
Bertl
you are probably referring to the AXIOM Gamma design
23:21
Bertl
https://apertus.org/axiom-gamma
23:21
Neferstefany
yes
23:22
Bertl
the gamma is in the design stage, and will not start (development) before end of the year
23:22
Bertl
(at which point we should have completed the beta)
23:22
Neferstefany
I doubt that I could design a I/O shield with the space you are offering..,
23:23
Bertl
well, you can make it larger if you don't mind the 'camera' getting larger
23:23
Bertl
as I said, the beta is quite small
23:25
Neferstefany
Okay, I will look it this week... I am in the middle or re equip myself with decent equipment, when I left Los Angeles last year I had to sell most of my stuff including my super computer... so for almost a year I have been using a Core 2 duo (8 years old computer) computer
23:26
danieel
i use the same for design :) but the camera got an i5 :)
23:27
Neferstefany
It makes for very long compilation time with Xilinx!
23:28
danieel
ise or vivado?
23:28
Neferstefany
In the near future I am looking for at least to get an i7 (overclocked)...
23:28
Neferstefany
ISE... I can't stand vivado... now I am forced to deal with it because of the Small Artix parts
23:28
danieel
it is said to be faster
23:29
Bertl
if you get rid of all the xilinx cores, synthesis and implementation is surprisingly fast
23:29
Neferstefany
what Vivado?
23:29
Neferstefany
good to know!
23:29
Bertl
we are currently using vivado 2014.1/2
23:30
Bertl
(basically without gui - saves time)
23:30
Neferstefany
We are using the same at the office... but since I still dealing with the big Artix, I am still using ISE
23:31
Neferstefany
Alright, I got to go... I have to go prepare some food! so we will talk again soon!
23:32
danieel
Bertl: would be interesting to run that on the server to produce night builds and error reports
23:32
Bertl
Neferstefany: okay, great! looking forward to it!
23:32
Bertl
danieel: yeah, we will probably do something like that soon (for the beta)
23:33
Neferstefany
See ya later! all
23:34
Bertl
cya
23:34
danieel
when i was in opengraphics, there was a question whether it is allowed to run paid licensed ise on the server...
23:34
danieel
luckily your part is supported in free edition
23:35
Bertl
yes, I can imagine that the licensing might get problematic
23:35
Bertl
(for a server build)
23:37
jucar
left the channel
23:38
Bertl
so how is your camera project going? anything new there?
23:39
jucar
joined the channel
23:40
danieel
thinking to go for a larger sensor
23:40
danieel
3/4" is badly accepted by profressionals
23:40
danieel
(personally i do not care)
23:40
Bertl
like the cmv12k :)
23:41
danieel
not sure about that... i would rather go for panavision
23:43
Bertl
but yes, it seems that size matters