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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2013/07/14

Timezone: UTC


23:40
jucar1
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jucar1
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intracube
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04:43
Bertl
okay, updated the adapter to v0.8.2 (if somebody is interested :)
04:45
Bertl
off to bed now ... have fun!
09:53
ApertusWeb4
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10:18
FergusL
Hello here
10:27
ApertusWeb4
Hi
10:28
ApertusWeb4
changed nick to: Frederir
10:58
Frederir
I'm looking at Xilinx Zynq, never worked with them before
10:59
Frederir
My understanding is you need a XC7Z030-2FFG676 to get a 10Gb/s able GTX
11:00
Frederir
Did someone looked at the maximum speed for TMDS output ?
11:07
FergusL
I guess it's a follow up from the amiling list conversation
11:10
Frederir
well I'm reading available information and just trying to catch up
11:11
Frederir
I'm not competent in pro video to know which features are needed
11:12
Frederir
and I'm trying to summarize a requirement document
11:13
FergusL
I take it you're F. Renet ?
11:14
Frederir
Oops. Yes
11:14
Frederir
I did not introduce myself
11:14
Frederir
sorry
12:04
FergusL
it's okay
12:36
Bertl
morning everyone!
12:38
FergusL
hi !
12:40
Bertl
Frederir: well, the XC7Z030 is the first one of the zynq-7000 family which features high speed serdes, i.e. GTX ports
12:43
Bertl
http://www.xilinx.com/products/technology/high-speed-serial/index.htm
12:44
Bertl
http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds180_7Series_Overview.pdf
12:46
Bertl
and for TMDS, I think it mainly depends on the 'other end'
12:47
Bertl
single link DVI is defined as 3.96Gbit/s
12:50
Bertl
HDMI has 3 TMDS channels, with up to 10.2 Gbit/s
12:59
FergusL
is it normal that the zynq 7000 is not in the last document ?
12:59
FergusL
it seems it's the latest one
13:00
FergusL
so GTX means gigabit serial, TX as in TX/RX, that's "funny"
13:03
Bertl
http://www.xilinx.com/publications/matrix/Product_Selection_Guide.pdf
13:04
Bertl
this one includes the zynq-7000 series
13:04
Bertl
they are somewhat different, as they have general purpose serial ports (starting with 7030
13:04
Bertl
)
13:04
Frederir
my understanding is it's possible to have tmds outputs without GTX using oserdes2 outputs but i've to check up to what speed
13:05
Frederir
some people did 1080p30 in spartan6
13:05
Bertl
yes, there are many options, for example, the zedboard (7020) has an analaog devices hdmi chip attached
13:07
Bertl
but hardened high speed serial, especially if it is multi protocol capable, is always way better than doing this in the PL fabric
13:07
FergusL
nice, this last document, which was already pasted somewhere, explains a lot
13:10
Frederir
so my question is do we want a 4k hdmi output ?
13:11
Bertl
would be an option, but probably not, the hdmi/display port(s) are probably more usefull for control monitors and viewfinding stuff (where HD resolution is sufficient)
13:12
Bertl
(from what I've gathered so far)
13:13
FergusL
yes, some pros in the field definitely go like "meeeeeeh" when there is HDMI
13:13
Bertl
I think, we should try to make it as modular and flexible as possible
13:13
Bertl
the conenctors do not cost much, regardless what type whe choose
13:13
FergusL
HDMI didn't get in there because of a need, it got there and now feels like needed because some manufacturer added HDMI in low pro or prosumer market products
13:14
Bertl
from the zynq-7k PoV we are limited to the 7030 (last webpack supported device)
13:14
Bertl
so we end up with 4 high speed serial lanes
13:15
Bertl
I think we should allow for soft reconfiguration of available ports
13:16
Bertl
for example, have 2x HDMI/display port, 4x C-Link, 2x SATA
13:16
Bertl
the user can then configure which physical ports are actually used
13:17
Frederir
hum muti Gb/s signals are not easily muxed
13:18
FergusL
(there's some configurations similar to this available on the RED Scarlet, to some extent)
13:19
FergusL
what is C-link ?
13:22
Bertl
channel link
13:23
FergusL
hm... what do we use this for ? are those the high speed serial ,
13:24
Bertl
Camera Link uses Channel Link
13:24
Bertl
it was just an example, could be any other high speed serial interface as well
13:25
FergusL
ok
13:26
Bertl
and yes, I'm aware that it is not trivial to mux, it might be better to have a hardware plug-module solution for that
13:28
Bertl
OTOH, many manufacturers (NXP, TI, Analog) already provide high speed muxes (up to 16GBit/s)
13:28
Bertl
so that might not be the problem at all
13:29
Frederir
True
13:30
FergusL
are you refering to multiplexers ? the actul electronic component
13:30
Frederir
yes
13:30
Bertl
yes, especially as we do not even need multiplexers, we probably can do with drivers featuring an enable input
13:32
FergusL
I think I see
13:32
Bertl
the important part is, that the serial ports in the 7030 are multiprotocol capable, so they can easily be configured as SATA or USB-3.0 or something else
13:33
FergusL
haaaa, and that's what you would like to make software configurable ?
13:33
Frederir
The concensus is the HDMI output is used only for viewfinder and can be at max 1080p60, right ?
13:39
Bertl
I'd say so, but I'm not the right person to ask :)
13:39
FergusL
i'd say HD-SDI, it's the true pro standard found on all cameras
13:40
FergusL
Alexa, reds, ENG (TV) equipment
13:40
FergusL
they do also have HDMI, sometimes both, sometimes for a different purpose
13:42
Frederir
If HDMI is "low resolution" limited to full HD I think it's doable without using a high speed serdes
13:43
Bertl
(as seen on the ZedBoard)
13:43
Frederir
so it's possible to have a 10Gb/s SFP+, 2 Sata and a 3G SDI output
13:45
Frederir
If HDMI must be 4K with 60fps it would not be possible to do it without using high speed serdes
14:07
Bertl
it is a question of available pins and bandwith, we could always add some external serdes
14:08
Bertl
for every LVDS pair (2 pins) we get roughly 300 MBit/s
14:09
Bertl
we probably want to use 67 pairs for the sensor chip
14:10
Bertl
roughly 33 pairs will give 10 GBit/s
14:17
FergusL
Bertl: what kind of "inputs" on the fpga are the pairs connecting to ?
14:17
FergusL
I get it that's how programmable an fpga is
14:18
Bertl
there are dedicated and general purpose pins
14:18
Bertl
some are better suited for clock signals, others can form LVDS pairs
14:18
Bertl
the high speed serial ports GBit/s are dedicated ports
14:19
FergusL
I see
14:19
Bertl
there are also a number of peripherial ports (on the zynq-7k) which cannot be used/mapped
14:19
Bertl
like for example i2c, spi, ethernet, ddr, etc
14:20
FergusL
like maybe the pci ?
14:20
FergusL
I see
14:21
Bertl
for example, the XC7Z030 (probably our best choice)
14:21
FergusL
yes that's the one I'm looking at
14:21
Bertl
comes in three packages, one with 484 pins and the other (probably also our best choice) with 676 pins
14:23
Bertl
the 676pin version has 130 PS (peripherial) pins, 4 GTX pairs, 100 HR general purpose I/O and 150 HP GPIOs
14:23
FergusL
ha, now that I look bvetter in the table I can see the "inputs"
14:24
FergusL
"multi standard and multi voltages selectio interfaces"
14:24
dmj_nova
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14:26
FergusL
I don't see the periphera pins here http://www.xilinx.com/publications/matrix/Product_Selection_Guide.pdf
14:27
Bertl
they are listed as Processing System User I/Os there
14:27
FergusL
that's 54 then !
14:28
Bertl
yes, excluding the other pins used for power, etc
14:28
Bertl
i.e. those are the 'pure' I/O pins
14:28
Bertl
but it makes sense to use them wherever possible in the final design
14:29
Bertl
e.g. have i2c and spi on those instead of GPIO pins
14:31
FergusL
oh okay I see
14:31
FergusL
what are we going to use the ARM A9 for ? the embedded system ?
14:32
Bertl
basically everything which requires higher level decisions
14:33
Bertl
for example, the HDMI demo I made consists of a PL part which generates the HDMI image (in the FPGA) and transfers the data to the external HDMI chip
14:33
FergusL
will it handle comuting/enabling of sata drives ? I understand it's far from being there for the needed bandwidth
14:33
Bertl
but the i2c configuration of that chip, as well as the configuration of that generator is done from the arm core
14:34
Bertl
it will do all the (G)UI stuff, map high speed serial ports and basically decide what gets routed where
14:34
Bertl
it will not do the actual data transfers
14:34
FergusL
yes, I understand that
14:35
FergusL
when you say routing, that might also be in the FPGA ? and be kind of dynamic ?
14:36
Bertl
yes
14:36
FergusL
I see
14:36
FergusL
well I think I learned a lot !
14:38
FergusL
so probably the lvds pairs are going to the HP GPIOs ?
14:41
Bertl
most likely
14:45
Bertl
we have roughly 123 LVDS pairs on the 7030 (in the 676pin package) not counting the high speed serial ports
14:47
FergusL
we need 67 for the sensor as you said
14:47
Bertl
for full bandwidth, yes
14:47
Bertl
the prototype will do with just 35
14:47
FergusL
almost half
14:48
Bertl
yes, exactly have the data lanes (32 instead of 64)
14:48
FergusL
ha yes
14:48
Bertl
*half
14:48
FergusL
those numbers ring a bell
14:49
FergusL
PL == programmable logic ?
14:49
Bertl
yup
14:49
FergusL
well, all this is great
14:50
FergusL
I wish I could really help though
14:50
Bertl
get a zedboard, start hacking on the PL/PS code :)
14:52
FergusL
lol, how much is a zedboard ?
14:54
Bertl
http://www.zedboard.org/buy
14:54
FergusL
I thought it would be much more
14:54
Bertl
yeah, it's an excellent price for the hardware on that board
14:55
Bertl
a lot of extra stuff we do not even need
14:55
Bertl
http://www.zedboard.org/sites/default/files/Avnet%20ZedBoard%20Brochure%20English%20Version.pdf
14:56
FergusL
what is PS ?
14:57
Bertl
PS refers to the hardened arm cores and the peripherials
14:57
Bertl
PS = Processing System (7)
14:59
FergusL
I see
14:59
Bertl
it is funny that the product brief mentions Windows for the ZedBoard ... haven't heard of any installation so far :)
15:00
FergusL
haha, didn't realise I actually read "windows", but indeed it's mentioned there
15:03
FergusL
Bertl: so you're working on one of these for the code ?
15:03
FergusL
and also on the pcb layouts for the actual prototype
15:03
Bertl
yep
15:05
FergusL
it could be really great to have sata
15:07
dmj_nova
Bertl: they're probably talking about some embedded version of "windows"
15:07
dmj_nova
not that that wouldn't be a horrible idea
15:08
Bertl
yeah, I figured, but haven't heard of any yet (running on the zedboard that is)
15:08
FergusL
we should poll customers if they'd prefer a Windows CE open source camera :)
15:08
dmj_nova
HAHAHA
15:09
Bertl
well, probably they will, after all, microsoft knows how to please their customers :)
15:10
Bertl
you will need to have your camera attached to the internet all the time, and you might get the first actual live shots of viruses, but hey, that's part of the EULA :)
15:11
dmj_nova
You haven't heard about any because of the non-disclosure agreement you need to sign :P
15:12
Bertl
right. now I understand!
15:15
Bertl
imagine that, there actually is a WinCE BSP for the zynq
15:16
Bertl
anyway, enough joking around, back to actual serious work :)
15:22
FergusL
yep, if the camera could be ready for tonight, I'd be very pleased, thanks for your efforts
15:25
dmj_nova
Bertl: you don't need to capitalize those letters. The proper way to write it is "wince"!
17:50
Bertl
hehe :)
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jucar1
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Frederir
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