#apertus IRC Channel Logs

aombk: Uh http://browsershots.org

off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!

good morning

hello se6astian, any feedback on 3d printers?

working through the stuff i would prefer b9 creator at the moment...

yes we got mixed feedback

and we should rather use printing services instead which offer much more materials and good prices

and you are stuck with one printing technology, while rapid prototyping providers have many to choose

for simple parts we can do it with my fdm printer (reprap) but the quality is not good enough

+from

and those resins are rather expensive

well, they are professionals :) it worked out great, they did laser sintering of an odd shape case for us

just for prototyping yes

they are almost the same for all of them

have they on in metalab or whats the name of the second one in vienna?

they have two dimension printers at happylab

Dimension 768 BST and Dimension Elite

that would be great

there are some caveats with resin printers, but I'll ask him for more details

(shadows)

great !

alright, just finished reading the cmv12000 specs

OK, thanks for the tip :)

How's things with Apertus?

morning Bertl

Yeah agreed. The only way I could see it is a custom file format with hinting for low resolution links to server based full res proxy's. Grading could take place on basically a proxy still and the server would translate it for playing.

or just a remote desktop.

The thought has occurred to me to make a mesh based VPN server driven network and just seed the city with it XD

hehe, would be fun at least

Oh inventor ok

Bertl: thanks. Is that spi core wrapped up in axi in final design?

I've implemented a similar spi controller for my on semi sensor and I was wondering whether the zynq PS spi could be used for interfacing the sensor

I agree, it's a fairly simple component, I was just trying to free as much of the logic slices for other purposes

the alpha I mean

Well so much for that . sketchup it is...

welcome the_scourge!

i'll introduce myself quickly: i'm a software engineer consultant (the kind that actually works for a living though) by day and a bit of a hacker /OSS/free hardware nerd by night

sounds good!

but we're only at the point of upgrading from our bridge camera to a DSLR right now! :) which gives us 10 months of playing with a canon? perhaps before the beta comes out

if that seems like a doable endeavour, then i might not be a crazy idea to get a beta

yes of course

yes, I think this is indeed huge

we've been wanting to buy a DSLR w/ good video capabilities for ... a long time! just recently have we been forced to look into getting into the hobby :D

wb mikea!

it will be a simple modular concept, so basically sensor and optional preprocessing, the main Beta board and some I/O shields to accomodate the desired output

i.e. will it be a bit of a throwaway development device, if the gamma comes out a year later?

yes and no

so you can of course, reuse that for something different later

also the sensor (the most expensive part) will be reuseable

yes that's fine i guess

it certainly is an exciting project

Bertl: another question i had was, is there any need for a CI environment/development support?

even if i don't buy one, i'd love to help work on some of the development pipeline. your webmasters are doing great work but i haven't seen any mention of issue tracking/build testing

welcome designbybeck_!

welcome again designbybeck__!

sounds good, maybe make a simple proposal what you would like to do and what the benefits are then?

alexML, thanks. the css filters are supposed to work soon on firefox 34

welcome andrew_levine!

@KurtAugust regarding “Question to @ApertusOSCinema Beta backers: would you like it to be designed so you won't need an extra camera cage?� yes please!

IRC is quite old as well, basically preceeds all the "modern" chat platforms

Many cameras need an external housing to enable one to wok with the easily.

Ans also many attachment options for external viewfinder, microphone etc.

Most obvious with the BlackMagic Design cameras. Not good ergonomics to say the least.

you are aware that the Beta is rather small, yes?

not sure where you want to screw things on, I do not see much space for that :)

A metal box will do nicely.

So called nato-rails are interesting too. Zacuto is going there…

otherwise the case adds more weight/space than the camera is

Talk later, OK?

he raises a good point

interesting ideas here

https://github.com/ewaters/DSLR-Video-Rig

but it would be awesome to design the camera body so that you could add a picanny-style rail to it!

Hi Bertl, you renember we discussed an alternative case for Beta? Basically you leave the sensor where it is and move the main Beta board and Microzed 57 mm up. This gives you a square shaped camera. I was sugesting a milled alum sealed case with cooling done via an external fan. You get a brick of alum 120mm*120mm*4cm. Then you have plenty of opportunity to have mounting holes. My guess is a good number of people may prefer that.

Yes let it be heavy and sturdy

i think that fab might be the problem will milled aluminum?

getting high precision with aluminum is known to be costly (read up on what apple has paid for good tech)

but i think that the reprap community and others have made huge headway in terms of getting the precision up

in general, I do not design the electronics according to a case, more the other way round

__anton__: but if you like to get a square case around the 110x60 camera, that shouldn't be a problem

the_scourge: I'm the technical lead (i.e. electronics and software)

the_scourge: Bertl is the project, alongside with se6astien and phillipej I guess

awesome! the video was good at showing the team but i connect better with IRC handles than i do with faces

what SoC will the Beta use? Has it been determined yet?

so the common family will be Zynq-7000

Vs compact and internal air flow cooled

no problem there, I'm pretty sure if you do the design, it is very popular, and we find some way to build it, then we will provide it

it is in no way that we want to force the userbase to anything, including our designs :)

I'm all for different designs, the only real design I want to see is the skeleton

probably not even featuring sides or back, just a base and maybe the fan holder for the top

so, best to get together and figure out the perfect case

it needs to be a little flexible atm, because we haven't fixed the PCB design yet, so there might be small variations in sizes, but that shouldn't be a big problem I guess

the Beta Board itself will match the size of the attached development board, so 4x2.25" on the MicroZed and PicoZed

and 3.4x2.15" for the Parallella (not sure that will be interesting for movie folks though)

not that much, more about 5000, but that's it

the Beta will be sold at cost, so you just have to pay for the parts and assembly/testing

the_scourge: I can't guarantee that we will be setting up something like discourse, but do not let me stop you from doing so yourself

Bertl, thanks.

simosx: you're welcome! if you have any question, just ask ...

yes, it would I guess, but we want to put tasks and similar there as well, so that's something different

please please please don't fuck up the task/project management software. so many commercial shops and open source projects alike rush past that, assuming either it doesn't matter or that all task management tools are created alike

All public projects will remain private until April 1, 2015

but there have been a bunch of suggestions already, including redmine (which I'm not convinced of after a lot of testing)

I'm investigating phabricator, that almost no one ever mentoin, and it really looks cool and usable

will look into taiga

it shouldn't be confusing and if it doesn't look like crap, then that's a bonus :)

and email in/out interface

looking forward to see it working soon, how's that progressing btw?

will work on it probably this evening

I'd need se6astian|away help a bit

It's so hard to keep up curently

For enclosure, we could look at openbeam : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ttstam/openbeam-an-open-source-miniature-construction-sys

this + simple aluminium flat plates (easier and less costly)

https://www.xiph.org/about/ explains the need for open source in a nice way

Hi, apparently we non-members of the project are allowed to edit "discussions" pages on wiki.apertus.org, so I have started "Body design options" page there. It doesnt contain much yet, just some opinions

(some special pages might be protected though)

Bertl: i'm a cli-only guy myself

"<__anton__> I'm just thinking this may be what KurtAugustos, the_scourge and intracube all may prefer smth like what I just described"

like passive cooling of FPGA and non-sensor components

the_scourge: do you know if other cam manufacturers use the case to dissipate heat?

as I said, no problem with having a completely different case, with big heat sink fans where there is space, the PCBs inside can be connected to aluminum or copper parts or even heatpipes

a black painted camera will absorb most of the light, directly converting it into heat :)

(mostly visible and IR range)

the_scourge: well if you connect both the sensor and zynq to the case then in asmall case they end up close together in a bigger one you can distance them better

anyway, I have no idea how all this works in practice

reflecting in every window

I don't think I've ever seen a camera that's white/silver

In direct sun probably a couple of cardboard panels on the rig could shield the cam? And in sahara a waterblock or smth...

if the case is big, like 15x15cm height/width. maybe it can accommodate a modified cpu cooler + oversized fan: http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/03/akasa-nero-s-cpu-cooler-review/8.jpg

downside is vents would mean the camera can't be weather sealed

I don't like the idea of an external fan tbh

intracube: okay, could you explain your thinking on external fan?

Mine was - a fan is cheap and optional. If dust or sand gets in you replace or throw it away

Aha, i hate noise too

External fan can be much bigger than internal

intracube: the noise is reduced by the ?case

Yes and the bigger the fan the quieter it can be for same power

120mm fan can be very quiet compared to 50mm

this is all theoretical until real tests are done :)

no one has time to test things themselves rather than build on the years of open development before us

once Beta design is finished, power usage, heat generation can be discovered

And the main can can be even weather proof

...and won't clutter up IRC with more circular discussion :)

no, a single layer wouldn't work for the sensor

don't forget you have to route 66 pairs and several control lines as well as 3 different voltages

hi TD-Linux

hello yanez!

I'm here just because I have another naive idea about battery pack and remote control.

http://i57.tinypic.com/vfgnpi.jpg

It could be that the remote control to recognize the other LANC control signals different then rec (such as zoom and focus), and he might be associated with other functions (eg navigating through the various menus)

regarding the battery/case/remote control attachement and/or design you might want to contact se6astian, I'm the "tech guy" :)

Since there are several third-party vendors LANC control for Sony / Canon and Panasonic, I think that might be accessible. But I do not know if we should pay the royaties.

currently the development steps for the sensor module look like this:

2) create a dummy sensor board which 'maps' the sensor to the interface

Ok, I'm not practical for technical things. I leave you to your work. bye

well, royalties sound bad

i.e. I don't think we want to encumber any design with additional cost

Bertl: right, so it'll be using internal bram only. Seems like the right choice. I was just wondering whether it'd be good to add some extra external ram for frame buffering to avoid frame drops

but yes, it might make sense to add external memory for e.g. accumulation or similar

guess that depends on what media you're writing to ;)

(at least in our designs :)

well the Zynq has DRAM...

so I'm not really worried about frame drop there

is the low power fpga also going to be zynq-based or more like an artix model?

skoezzie: most likely it will be really low power, so an igloo2 or lattice or maybe cyclone or stratix

It is best to keep things simple. However, put the remote control on the rear of the camera, would leave space for a reference monitor on one side, without excessive rigging.

But now I leave. bye tech guys :)

TD-Linux: the AXIOM Alpha is streaming 4k @ 60FPS to and from memory

Bertl, to the Zynq's DRAM? that's pretty impressive

yep precisely

yes, we use the HP AXI slave interfaces for memory access

ok. I have yet to get that level of performance on my zedboard (using the Xilinx DMA IP)

back from work... err... after-work beer

though I have a lot of issues in mine that haven't been fixed yet

and sometimes broken :)

but feel free to use our code, it is GPL after all

well, they had nicely priced development boards and Altera didn't want to work with us, so we went the Xilinx route, and the Zynq is a good platform to easily try out things

vivado commandline (if that is what you're asking for)

nope

yep, I agree

yeah, I didn't bother longer than a day or so, I also hate the every changing gui

the gui is only used to visualize schematics and sometimes to debug xilinx specific stuff

so, you're building your own camera? proprietary or open?

ah, I see, lossy or lossless and what resolution?

of course there are many other pieces that I need to get to have it fully working.

I've got to go guys. Until next time!

Xiph and Mozilla

ah yes, I remember

off for a nap ... bbl

oh, it would be a compressor only or recorder too?

great :)

TD-Linux, will it be close to ready by the time this camera is released?

aombk, going for bitstream stable sometime next year

not sure it's exactly the right fit anyway

You have thus peaked my interest.

Fishing for a new one, versatile. Right now my best bet seems to be the H6 for multiple usages and inputs.

Let me look at the logs i feel like im missing something lol

oh video recorder ok XD

Beyond me, too bad. Ive been meaning to take apart and dissect my H4n Zoom that got blasted by a bad cable.

well, the truth is maybe i was a bit more pleased by h4n

what video recorders do you guys use now?

also what bit depth do you record at?

for video I mean

Possibly for my B camera the Atomos Ninja though im not entirely sold on it

but we will need to with axiom beta

Hdmi out though. There are several ones on the market.

Hyperdeck shuttle.

only se6astian has this alpha prototype and i think he used an atomos product

Lossless

all the way

so demand on the disk is less

ok. so really something that just writes y4m frames to disk or whatever would be fine for you

So

I like pro res, but then again im a mac user. Ive been looking at using lightworks. Going to use it for my most recent project and attempt DNxHD

Those two are the industry accepted standards by most as far as ive seen.

4k24 needs 1080p48

if we stay uncompressed hdmi that is.

TD-Linux, yes

Rebelj12a, jpeg isn't that bad at all, especially at high rates where blocking isn't an issue

I just assumed highest bitrate no compression is the best.

wait what? 4k and Raw?

TD-Linux, thats the plan

what's the other part of the hack? 4k30 is still 2x the pixels as 1080p60

i love that idea, ingenuous. the recorder needs to do 4:4:4 tho

bandwidth-wise it would work... naturally it wont be a readable HDMI signal anymore. will need to be "decompiled" :)

the idea with the beat is that up to 2 would be used for 4k recording, and the 3rd one would output vanilla hdmi for monitoring

Yeah that makes sense.

as far as i understood. i'm your typical non-technical afficiando :)

TD-Linux, do you think daala could compress the raw video color channels separately?

lossy compressed raw

not rgb yuv etc

yes

daala needs heavy computing right?

you'd use a reduced complexity encoder for this

you could make your own incompatible format based off daala

mh, so many options so little time :)

if theres a way to build Daala based compression in a recorder ... im all for it

Need a math genuis to make a specialized compression format for hdmi.

but i generallly feel that for the beta data acquisition should be raw, compressed losslessly or not. and then we leave it to desktop crunching power to archive it in some format. lossy or not

imho that is

TD-Linux, so would it be possible you think for a striped version of dala to run inside the camera?

yes its was a tragedy. thanks

i will remember. next time, flexible campaign :P

so, actually indiegogo or paypal kept your money for so long?

and you got refunded today?

how nice of them

Been meaning to start an Indiegogo or something.

anyways, did you use fancy cats and unicorns cause thats what sells it

o.o

night

Rebelj12a, what about?

TD-Linux, thats great! hope someday it gets implemented

screenshot of what im talking about

send again

dont know why

thats all? oy

didnt do it for me

oh ok nevermind i thought it was some sort of inline private message or something blah

nevermind im fine ignore the crazy person in the corner with the coffee and screwdrivers.

Arduino?

Not familiar with those hm

Not to derail the conversation apologies