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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/10/13

Timezone: UTC


06:21
aombk2
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06:22
troy_s
aombk: Uh http://browsershots.org
06:24
aombk
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06:25
aombk3
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06:28
aombk3
thanks but cannot test mouseover on that, can i?
06:28
aombk2
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06:29
aombk3
changed nick to: aombk
07:05
swah
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07:17
wescotte
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07:25
swah
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07:40
g3gg0
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07:41
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
07:41
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
08:03
danieel
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08:15
alexML
aombk: images get brighter on hover, but not blurred (firefox 32)
08:18
danieel
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08:38
skoezzie
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08:44
duvrai
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08:46
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
08:50
se6astian
good morning
08:52
daFred
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08:53
daFred
hello se6astian, any feedback on 3d printers?
08:55
skoezzie
'morning :)
08:55
daFred
working through the stuff i would prefer b9 creator at the moment...
08:55
daFred
morning!
08:56
se6astian
yes we got mixed feedback
08:56
se6astian
one suggestion was to not buy a printer as the technology is changing rapidely and not really matured yet :)
08:57
se6astian
and we should rather use printing services instead which offer much more materials and good prices
08:58
se6astian
my original thought was that we can make interations faster if we print ourselves but considering that printing a part yourself can take days ordering and shipping parts from an external service might be just as fast...
09:00
mars_
and you are stuck with one printing technology, while rapid prototyping providers have many to choose
09:00
skoezzie
I practically live next door to materialise
09:01
daFred
for simple parts we can do it with my fdm printer (reprap) but the quality is not good enough
09:01
jucar
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09:02
mars_
+from
09:02
mars_
skoezzie: yeah, i worked with them a few years ago
09:02
PhilippeJ2
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09:03
se6astian
because of the FDM printing quality concerns we considered an SLA printer, but the technology of those is even more inmature
09:03
jucar
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09:03
se6astian
an important aspect someone mentioned is that the photo sensitive resin will degrade fast when it is being stored
09:03
se6astian
and those resins are rather expensive
09:04
skoezzie
mars_: you did? what did you think about quality/service? Never worked with them myself, haven't had the need to 3D print stuff just yet
09:07
mars_
well, they are professionals :) it worked out great, they did laser sintering of an odd shape case for us
09:08
daFred
you're not planning to produce parts? just prototyping? we have to find out the quality and price for the printing service
09:08
se6astian
just for prototyping yes
09:08
se6astian
price we already inquired online for all major print service providers
09:08
se6astian
they are almost the same for all of them
09:08
mars_
+ed
09:10
daFred
have they on in metalab or whats the name of the second one in vienna?
09:11
mars_
happylab
09:11
mars_
they have two dimension printers at happylab
09:11
mars_
http://www.happylab.at/ausstattung/ (german)
09:12
mars_
Dimension 768 BST and Dimension Elite
09:18
daFred
Don't you think we should give the B9 a try. It's not that expensive and there are a lot of resins available end even not so expensive?
09:21
PhilippeJ2
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09:21
ItsMeLenny
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09:21
philippej__
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09:22
philippej__
se6astian, a friend is testing a form one this week, I can ask him for feedback
09:25
se6astian
that would be great
09:26
se6astian
daFred: I am tempted with the B9creator, but its 3000€ for the DIY assembly kit
09:26
philippej__
there are some caveats with resin printers, but I'll ask him for more details
09:28
philippej__
any ressidue in the resin will deviate the laser light (or projector) and won't harden the area in the "sadows" making the printed object useless
09:28
philippej__
(shadows)
09:32
daFred
i investigate deeper into this but sebastian when you decide i'll help you building and testing...
09:39
se6astian
great !
09:53
philippej__
looks like the B9 is the best option curently, very curious to see what we'll end up using
09:56
skoezzie
alright, just finished reading the cmv12000 specs
09:57
skoezzie
anyone know whether spi is driven using zynq PS spi hard IP (MIO or EMIO) or through axi SPI controller in PL?
10:09
jucar
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10:11
jucar
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10:28
ItsMeLenny
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10:34
se6astian
skoezzie: that question only Bertl will be able to answer, please PM him and you will get an answer as soon as he is up
10:35
skoezzie
OK, thanks for the tip :)
10:44
mlilenium_
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10:44
mlilenium_
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11:05
philippej_
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11:05
philippej
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11:36
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
11:55
duvrai
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12:06
ThatCantBe
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12:19
Rebelj12a
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12:20
Rebelj12a
So so busy D:
12:21
Rebelj12a
How's things with Apertus?
12:24
Rebelj12a
Really wish there were some professional mobile editing platforms. Some sort of cache download project server conversion to proxy's on the fly and able to use a full color grade system like resolve on android through vpn ... Dream of the future....
12:28
seku_
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12:29
seku_
well, you could use rdp or something the like. i doubt tho that it would be very usable.
12:29
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
12:30
Bertl
morning folks!
12:30
seku_
morning Bertl
12:31
Bertl
skoezzie: https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-software/blob/master/cmv_io2/cmv_spi.vhd
12:31
Rebelj12a
Yeah agreed. The only way I could see it is a custom file format with hinting for low resolution links to server based full res proxy's. Grading could take place on basically a proxy still and the server would translate it for playing.
12:31
Rebelj12a
Morning Bertl
12:31
seku_
or just a remote desktop.
12:33
Rebelj12a
Well hard to do when on mobile though. Especially around here where it can go anywhere from 4g (that's all we get) down to even 3g to *shudders* edge in the boonies.
12:35
Rebelj12a
The thought has occurred to me to make a mesh based VPN server driven network and just seed the city with it XD
12:39
Rebelj12a
Oh yeah what programs open the files on github? The designs?
12:39
seku_
hehe, would be fun at least
12:41
Rebelj12a
Oh yeah, but I'd have to epoxy anchors to the chips and boards. Wouldn't put it past the more unsavory elements in the city to just go collecting and selling the parts
12:50
Rebelj12a
Oh inventor ok
12:53
philippej__
left the channel
12:54
skoezzie
Bertl: thanks. Is that spi core wrapped up in axi in final design?
12:55
Bertl
in the final AXIOM Alpha design yes, for the Beta we do not have a sofware design yet
12:56
skoezzie
I've implemented a similar spi controller for my on semi sensor and I was wondering whether the zynq PS spi could be used for interfacing the sensor
12:57
Bertl
it might work, for us it was simpler this way
12:58
skoezzie
I agree, it's a fairly simple component, I was just trying to free as much of the logic slices for other purposes
12:58
skoezzie
what kind of OS was the axiom running on? Linux, standalone, RTOS?
12:58
skoezzie
the alpha I mean
12:59
Bertl
The Alpha is running Linux on both cores
13:04
philippej__
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13:05
simosx
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13:22
alexML
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alexML
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13:25
seku_
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13:25
seku_
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13:36
Rebelj12a
Well so much for that . sketchup it is...
13:48
the_scourge
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13:51
Bertl
welcome the_scourge!
13:51
the_scourge
thanks!
13:52
the_scourge
i'll introduce myself quickly: i'm a software engineer consultant (the kind that actually works for a living though) by day and a bit of a hacker /OSS/free hardware nerd by night
13:53
the_scourge
thinking about getting a beta
13:53
Bertl
sounds good!
13:53
Bertl
what can we do to help with your decision?
13:53
the_scourge
but we're only at the point of upgrading from our bridge camera to a DSLR right now! :) which gives us 10 months of playing with a canon? perhaps before the beta comes out
13:54
the_scourge
well i'm looking into how to get my skills up (participating in the ML project) on a canon first
13:54
the_scourge
if that seems like a doable endeavour, then i might not be a crazy idea to get a beta
13:54
Bertl
you know that we teamed up with the ML folks, I guess :)
13:55
the_scourge
yes of course
13:55
the_scourge
huge, great news there!
13:55
Bertl
yes, I think this is indeed huge
13:55
Bertl
well, you have about 10 days to decide if you want the sweet deal for the Beta (i.e. a Beta at cost)
13:55
the_scourge
we've been wanting to buy a DSLR w/ good video capabilities for ... a long time! just recently have we been forced to look into getting into the hobby :D
13:56
Bertl
but we will sell them later as well, so if you don't mind paying more later, no problem there
13:56
mikea
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13:56
the_scourge
Bertl: yes well the only debate about that is... how modular is the beta going to be?
13:56
Bertl
wb mikea!
13:56
the_scourge
i know on the ML forums there was some talk about making the beta with similar modularity to the gamma
13:57
Bertl
it will be a simple modular concept, so basically sensor and optional preprocessing, the main Beta board and some I/O shields to accomodate the desired output
13:58
the_scourge
right what about the modularity of the case?
13:58
the_scourge
i.e. will it be a bit of a throwaway development device, if the gamma comes out a year later?
13:58
the_scourge
i understand that for many it would be a good investment, if they are on the more serious end of hobbyist/professional
13:58
Bertl
yes and no
13:59
Bertl
we are currently utilizing FPGA development board (MicroZed, PicoZed, Parallella)
13:59
Bertl
so you can of course, reuse that for something different later
13:59
the_scourge
yes i'm familiar with FPGA tech
13:59
Bertl
also the sensor (the most expensive part) will be reuseable
14:00
Bertl
we do not plan any reuse for the case or the Beta board itself
14:01
the_scourge
yes that's fine i guess
14:01
Bertl
also the shields are not likely to be reused, but that could be easy with a 'shield module'
14:01
the_scourge
it certainly is an exciting project
14:02
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
14:06
the_scourge
Bertl: another question i had was, is there any need for a CI environment/development support?
14:07
Bertl
what exactly do you have in mind there?
14:07
the_scourge
even if i don't buy one, i'd love to help work on some of the development pipeline. your webmasters are doing great work but i haven't seen any mention of issue tracking/build testing
14:08
Bertl
yeah, we are currently working (besides the design) on getting the infra structure up for distributed development
14:08
designbybeck_
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14:08
philippej__
it will very soon be there I guess :-)
14:08
Bertl
welcome designbybeck_!
14:08
designbybeck__
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14:09
Bertl
welcome again designbybeck__!
14:09
the_scourge
yes and that's what i do for a living. well as distributed as the big corporate world will allow. in my spare time i work on fully distributed dev tools
14:09
Bertl
sounds good, maybe make a simple proposal what you would like to do and what the benefits are then?
14:10
the_scourge
Bertl: sure that will take some thought on my part. a lot of good tools are already in place but it's just a matter of tying them into a build platform, open documentation, fedwiki and other stuff
14:11
mikea
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14:28
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
15:07
seku_
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15:08
seku_
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15:11
aombk
alexML, thanks. the css filters are supposed to work soon on firefox 34
15:15
andrew_levine
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15:16
Bertl
welcome andrew_levine!
15:17
andrew_levine
Hi Bertl :-)
15:17
andrew_levine
@KurtAugust regarding “Question to @ApertusOSCinema Beta backers: would you like it to be designed so you won't need an extra camera cage?” yes please!
15:18
andrew_levine
Me, old to the Internet, new to IRC.
15:19
Bertl
IRC is quite old as well, basically preceeds all the "modern" chat platforms
15:20
Bertl
care to explain to a film camera novice what that means? (the camera cage part)
15:21
andrew_levine
Many cameras need an external housing to enable one to wok with the easily.
15:21
andrew_levine
E.g. the zacuto halfcage offers a side handle to help get good handheld shots.
15:21
andrew_levine
Ans also many attachment options for external viewfinder, microphone etc.
15:22
Bertl
okay? so what would in your opinion the Beta "require" to "not need" a cage?
15:22
andrew_levine
Most obvious with the BlackMagic Design cameras. Not good ergonomics to say the least.
15:23
andrew_levine
If the housing is milled from aluminum and has several mounting points it will enable to user to screw stuff onto the camera body itself.
15:23
Bertl
you are aware that the Beta is rather small, yes?
15:23
andrew_levine
Yes, sure.
15:24
Bertl
not sure where you want to screw things on, I do not see much space for that :)
15:24
andrew_levine
Sturdiness is the main point I believe.
15:25
andrew_levine
A metal box will do nicely.
15:25
Bertl
okay, let's assume the case is milled aluminum, it will have to be around 2-3mm wall thickness
15:25
andrew_levine
So called nato-rails are interesting too. Zacuto is going there…
15:25
andrew_levine
2-3mm is not much.
15:25
Bertl
otherwise the case adds more weight/space than the camera is
15:26
andrew_levine
Off line for a bit.
15:26
andrew_levine
Talk later, OK?
15:26
Bertl
sure, cya
15:28
the_scourge
he raises a good point
15:28
the_scourge
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?88,75536
15:28
the_scourge
interesting ideas here
15:29
the_scourge
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:29677
15:29
the_scourge
https://github.com/ewaters/DSLR-Video-Rig
15:29
__anton__
joined the channel
15:29
the_scourge
but it would be awesome to design the camera body so that you could add a picanny-style rail to it!
15:29
the_scourge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picatinny_rail
15:34
__anton__
Hi Bertl, you renember we discussed an alternative case for Beta? Basically you leave the sensor where it is and move the main Beta board and Microzed 57 mm up. This gives you a square shaped camera. I was sugesting a milled alum sealed case with cooling done via an external fan. You get a brick of alum 120mm*120mm*4cm. Then you have plenty of opportunity to have mounting holes. My guess is a good number of people may prefer that.
15:35
Bertl
I'm pretty sure quite a number of folks will prefer another design as well
15:36
__anton__
Yes let it be heavy and sturdy
15:36
__anton__
1.5 cm thick bottom, 1cm thick top, 5 mm thick back - GOOD
15:36
the_scourge
i think that fab might be the problem will milled aluminum?
15:36
__anton__
true
15:36
the_scourge
getting high precision with aluminum is known to be costly (read up on what apple has paid for good tech)
15:36
Bertl
but we will investigate the options
15:37
the_scourge
but i think that the reprap community and others have made huge headway in terms of getting the precision up
15:37
the_scourge
accuracy is slowly following
15:37
Bertl
in general, I do not design the electronics according to a case, more the other way round
15:37
the_scourge
Bertl: what is your background/role in the project?
15:37
Bertl
__anton__: but if you like to get a square case around the 110x60 camera, that shouldn't be a problem
15:38
__anton__
I'm just thinking this may be what KurtAugustos, the_scourge and intracube all may prefer smth like what I just described
15:38
Bertl
the_scourge: I'm the technical lead (i.e. electronics and software)
15:39
Bertl
case and general design is se6astian
15:39
__anton__
the_scourge: Bertl is the project, alongside with se6astien and phillipej I guess
15:40
__anton__
Bertl: yes, but I also want a sealed camera which would require the internal components to be attached in very specific way to the internals of the big case
15:40
the_scourge
awesome! the video was good at showing the team but i connect better with IRC handles than i do with faces
15:41
Bertl
__anton__: it currently looks like you will be able to do that by separating the sensor module from the beta board :)
15:42
simosx
what SoC will the Beta use? Has it been determined yet?
15:42
Bertl
the Beta will be based on the MicroZed, PicoZed and Parallella
15:43
Bertl
so the common family will be Zynq-7000
15:43
__anton__
Bertl: Yes I know that which makess me quite happy. :-) However as more peoplx speak out in support of a sturdy case with lots of mounting points I fail to keep calm and wish to add that this may go very well together with a sealed design
15:44
jucar
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15:44
__anton__
Big sturdy sealed!
15:44
__anton__
Vs compact and internal air flow cooled
15:45
jucar
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15:45
Bertl
no problem there, I'm pretty sure if you do the design, it is very popular, and we find some way to build it, then we will provide it
15:45
KurtAugust
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15:45
Bertl
it is in no way that we want to force the userbase to anything, including our designs :)
15:46
KurtAugust
About body design. It's not my call but I wrote a bit here: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg131241#msg131241
15:47
Bertl
I'm all for different designs, the only real design I want to see is the skeleton
15:47
Bertl
i.e. a very basic framework which holds together the PCBs for development
15:48
Bertl
probably not even featuring sides or back, just a base and maybe the fan holder for the top
15:49
Bertl
but that's trivial to make and we will probably make it plastic
15:50
Bertl
so, best to get together and figure out the perfect case
15:51
Bertl
gather feedback from the community (probably best via mailing list)
15:52
Bertl
it needs to be a little flexible atm, because we haven't fixed the PCB design yet, so there might be small variations in sizes, but that shouldn't be a big problem I guess
15:52
KurtAugust
left the channel
15:53
Bertl
the Beta Board itself will match the size of the attached development board, so 4x2.25" on the MicroZed and PicoZed
15:53
the_scourge
Bertl: i will put together a plan for a complete idea of some of the dev support things i'd like to help with, but re: community feedback, i'd be interested in using something sophisticated like discourse for things like that
15:54
Bertl
and 3.4x2.15" for the Parallella (not sure that will be interesting for movie folks though)
15:54
simosx
I am trying to figure out how the Indiegogo campaign works: You contribute $500 for the development now, which entitles you to buy the Beta for around $2000 in one year, when it is ready? While normally such a camera would cost around $10000 in retail?
15:55
Bertl
not that much, more about 5000, but that's it
15:55
Bertl
we are currently in overtime (regarding funding) so the actual campaign offered the deal for 300/350 EUR
15:57
Bertl
the Beta will be sold at cost, so you just have to pay for the parts and assembly/testing
15:58
Bertl
(which naturally gets cheaper with higher quantities)
15:59
Bertl
the_scourge: I can't guarantee that we will be setting up something like discourse, but do not let me stop you from doing so yourself
16:01
__anton__
left the channel
16:01
simosx
Bertl, thanks.
16:01
Bertl
the_scourge: we are currently working on a bug/feature tracker, which is the first step to get some order into the current coordinated chaos :)
16:02
Bertl
simosx: you're welcome! if you have any question, just ask ...
16:02
the_scourge
Bertl: for some of the sub-projects, github issue tracker will work
16:03
Bertl
yes, it would I guess, but we want to put tasks and similar there as well, so that's something different
16:05
the_scourge
https://taiga.io/
16:07
the_scourge
please please please don't fuck up the task/project management software. so many commercial shops and open source projects alike rush past that, assuming either it doesn't matter or that all task management tools are created alike
16:07
the_scourge
i guess there are a lot of options to chose from but if it was me, i would pick taiga every time
16:08
Bertl
All public projects will remain private until April 1, 2015
16:08
Bertl
we plan to have finished by then
16:09
Bertl
but there have been a bunch of suggestions already, including redmine (which I'm not convinced of after a lot of testing)
16:10
Bertl
so that is also something which should be discussed on the mailing list in a thread or documented on the wiki (feel free to help out there)
16:10
philippej__
I'm investigating phabricator, that almost no one ever mentoin, and it really looks cool and usable
16:10
Bertl
the only requirements I have is that whatever solution, it works with any browser and it has good email integration, because very often all I have available is a commandline interface (which is more than sufficient for IRC/email)
16:10
philippej__
will look into taiga
16:11
philippej__
Bertl, Phabricator has great command line support
16:11
Bertl
it shouldn't be confusing and if it doesn't look like crap, then that's a bonus :)
16:11
philippej__
see https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/arcanist/
16:11
philippej__
and email in/out interface
16:11
philippej__
and secret bonus : a chat bot
16:12
Bertl
looking forward to see it working soon, how's that progressing btw?
16:12
sebix
joined the channel
16:12
philippej__
will work on it probably this evening
16:12
Bertl
excellent! thanks in advance!
16:12
philippej__
I'd need se6astian|away help a bit
16:13
philippej__
you're welcome, I'm really enthousiast to bring some more structure to the myriad of ideas that spring here
16:13
philippej__
It's so hard to keep up curently
16:14
simosx
left the channel
16:14
philippej__
For enclosure, we could look at openbeam : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ttstam/openbeam-an-open-source-miniature-construction-sys
16:14
philippej__
I had some in my hands a few months ago, it's really cool
16:15
philippej__
this + simple aluminium flat plates (easier and less costly)
16:24
seku_
left the channel
16:26
aombk
https://www.xiph.org/about/ explains the need for open source in a nice way
16:52
__anton__
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16:56
__anton__
Hi, apparently we non-members of the project are allowed to edit "discussions" pages on wiki.apertus.org, so I have started "Body design options" page there. It doesnt contain much yet, just some opinions
17:07
Bertl
just register and you should be able to edit more IIRC, if that doesn't work out, please contact se6astian
17:08
Bertl
(some special pages might be protected though)
17:09
Bertl
aombk: if you feel we are missing something there, check with comradekingu, he has reworked the open source page on apertus, IIRC (and of course se6astian)
17:09
philippej__
left the channel
17:17
andrew_levine
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17:20
the_scourge
Bertl: i'm a cli-only guy myself
17:20
the_scourge
sorry, was afk (meeting)
17:25
intracube_afk
"<__anton__> I'm just thinking this may be what KurtAugustos, the_scourge and intracube all may prefer smth like what I just described"
17:26
intracube_afk
would like the camera dimensions/size to be similar to the Alexa
17:26
intracube_afk
changed nick to: intracube
17:26
intracube
but mounting existing Beta within a larger case wouldn't fully benefit from having a larger case
17:27
intracube
like passive cooling of FPGA and non-sensor components
17:27
andrew_levine
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17:28
andrew_levine
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17:31
the_scourge
intracube: Al is pretty conductive. if they're able to use Al, then attaching a picanny rail or larger case WOULD provide passive cooling?
17:35
intracube
the_scourge: do you know if other cam manufacturers use the case to dissipate heat?
17:35
intracube
my only thought is what happens if the camera (painted black or mid-grey) is left in the summer sun?
17:36
Bertl
as I said, no problem with having a completely different case, with big heat sink fans where there is space, the PCBs inside can be connected to aluminum or copper parts or even heatpipes
17:37
intracube
how hot would the case get? can you get special paints to reflect UV, etc?
17:37
Bertl
a black painted camera will absorb most of the light, directly converting it into heat :)
17:38
intracube
*visible light :P
17:38
Bertl
(mostly visible and IR range)
17:38
intracube
Bertl: yep
17:38
__anton__
the_scourge: well if you connect both the sensor and zynq to the case then in asmall case they end up close together in a bigger one you can distance them better
17:38
the_scourge
i think it's hard to beat brushed Ai for not absorbing most light energy
17:38
intracube
anyway, I have no idea how all this works in practice
17:39
intracube
the_scourge: but would you want something that shiny 'on set'?
17:39
intracube
reflecting in every window
17:40
the_scourge
very good point
17:40
intracube
I don't think I've ever seen a camera that's white/silver
17:41
intracube
(excluding consumer)
17:41
__anton__
In direct sun probably a couple of cardboard panels on the rig could shield the cam? And in sahara a waterblock or smth...
17:41
intracube
actually, studio cameras can be quite pale. this probably isn't as much of an issue as I'm thinking
17:41
intracube
is rambling
17:46
the_scourge
intracube: i'm listening, rambling is good. if it's not rambling then it belongs in the wiki anyways
17:48
intracube
if the case is big, like 15x15cm height/width. maybe it can accommodate a modified cpu cooler + oversized fan: http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/03/akasa-nero-s-cpu-cooler-review/8.jpg
17:49
intracube
fan might only operate in more extreme heat
17:50
intracube
downside is vents would mean the camera can't be weather sealed
17:53
__anton__
intracube: here's the plan that i will try to get you signed up to: the cam is 120mm*120mm*40mm, the back is flat alum. The cam is sealed. Now to that flat cam back you can add a fan, or a whole cooker with a fan. And you can have an enclosure around that if you like with vents. How does it sound?
17:54
intracube
I don't like the idea of an external fan tbh
17:54
__anton__
Sorry - you can attach a cooler to the back of that brick, not a cooker :-)
17:55
__anton__
intracube: okay, could you explain your thinking on external fan?
17:56
intracube
noise
17:56
__anton__
Mine was - a fan is cheap and optional. If dust or sand gets in you replace or throw it away
17:56
the_scourge
intracube: internal fan will create noise as well
17:56
__anton__
Aha, i hate noise too
17:56
the_scourge
i agree with __anton__ that it should be an optional thing
17:57
__anton__
External fan can be much bigger than internal
17:57
intracube
yes, but it could be significantly reduced compared to an external one
17:57
__anton__
intracube: the noise is reduced by the ?case
17:57
intracube
yep
17:58
__anton__
Yes and the bigger the fan the quieter it can be for same power
17:58
the_scourge
^^ what he said
17:58
__anton__
120mm fan can be very quiet compared to 50mm
17:58
__anton__
Ask anybody who builds a silent pc :)
17:59
intracube
this is all theoretical until real tests are done :)
17:59
__anton__
Sure
17:59
the_scourge
no one has time to test things themselves rather than build on the years of open development before us
17:59
the_scourge
seee the parallela idea
17:59
intracube
once Beta design is finished, power usage, heat generation can be discovered
18:01
__anton__
I still like the 120*120*40 case idea - keeps the cooling options pretty open. Any kind of cooling device can be attached
18:02
__anton__
And the main can can be even weather proof
18:24
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
18:24
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18:36
Bertl
as I said, make a design, make a prototype, convince folks to vote for it and we will use it
18:40
sebix
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18:41
intracube
Bertl: yep, will definitely look into it further
18:42
intracube
...and won't clutter up IRC with more circular discussion :)
18:47
__anton__
Guys if you had to could you make sensor board one layer one sided? Or at least the wiring around the sensor socket? Still wondering uf theres a clever way to drill holes in a metal core pcb..
18:56
Bertl
no, a single layer wouldn't work for the sensor
18:56
Bertl
we are lucky if we get away with 4 layers
18:57
Bertl
don't forget you have to route 66 pairs and several control lines as well as 3 different voltages
18:57
TD-Linux
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19:02
aombk
hi TD-Linux
19:07
the_scourge
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19:35
yanez
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19:35
yanez
Hello everybody
19:36
Bertl
hello yanez!
19:36
yanez
Hello Bertl
19:36
yanez
I'm here just because I have another naive idea about battery pack and remote control.
19:37
yanez
The battery pack shoud be rotated by 90 degrees, so we could attache the remote control to the rear of the camera. I did a "concept" draw, that I have upload here.
19:37
yanez
http://i57.tinypic.com/vfgnpi.jpg
19:38
yanez
I also think that the remote control should have an input for LANC remote controls.
19:38
yanez
It could be that the remote control to recognize the other LANC control signals different then rec (such as zoom and focus), and he might be associated with other functions (eg navigating through the various menus)
19:42
Bertl
url for the interface and protocol definitions for LANC please?
19:43
Bertl
regarding the battery/case/remote control attachement and/or design you might want to contact se6astian, I'm the "tech guy" :)
19:45
skoezzie
Bertl: is the smart sensor board going to have some kind of external ram or is it just going to do sensor interfacing and/or debayering?
19:45
yanez
Since there are several third-party vendors LANC control for Sony / Canon and Panasonic, I think that might be accessible. But I do not know if we should pay the royaties.
19:46
Bertl
skoezzie: we will see how far we go there, but planned is at least a low power FPGA which does the reordering but no debayering
19:48
Bertl
currently the development steps for the sensor module look like this:
19:48
Bertl
1) define an interface between Beta Board and Sensor Board (flexible, dynamic)
19:49
Bertl
2) create a dummy sensor board which 'maps' the sensor to the interface
19:49
Bertl
3) create a smart sensor board which adds the low power FPGA between sensor and Beta Board
19:50
yanez
Ok, I'm not practical for technical things. I leave you to your work. bye
19:50
yanez
:)
19:50
Bertl
well, royalties sound bad
19:50
yanez
I know
19:51
Bertl
i.e. I don't think we want to encumber any design with additional cost
19:51
Bertl
and/or licenses
19:52
skoezzie
Bertl: right, so it'll be using internal bram only. Seems like the right choice. I was just wondering whether it'd be good to add some extra external ram for frame buffering to avoid frame drops
19:52
Bertl
there will be no frame drops :)
19:53
Bertl
but yes, it might make sense to add external memory for e.g. accumulation or similar
19:53
Bertl
we will see what makes sense when we get there
19:53
skoezzie
guess that depends on what media you're writing to ;)
19:53
Bertl
the media the sensor board is "writing to" is the Zynq
19:54
Bertl
(at least in our designs :)
19:54
skoezzie
yeah, I meant storage like SSD
19:54
TD-Linux
well the Zynq has DRAM...
19:54
Bertl
about 1GB, shared with the linux, but yes
19:55
Bertl
so I'm not really worried about frame drop there
19:55
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19:56
skoezzie
is the low power fpga also going to be zynq-based or more like an artix model?
19:56
TD-Linux
is the zynq going to be getting full 1080p@60fps video?
19:57
Bertl
skoezzie: most likely it will be really low power, so an igloo2 or lattice or maybe cyclone or stratix
19:57
Bertl
TD-Linux: on the output side?
19:58
yanez
It is best to keep things simple. However, put the remote control on the rear of the camera, would leave space for a reference monitor on one side, without excessive rigging.
19:58
TD-Linux
I mean if you're wanting to stream that into DRAM, that's awfully tight on the memory bandwidth
19:58
yanez
But now I leave. bye tech guys :)
19:59
skoezzie
cya yanez :)
19:59
Bertl
TD-Linux: the AXIOM Alpha is streaming 4k @ 60FPS to and from memory
19:59
Bertl
(at the same time)
19:59
yanez
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20:00
Bertl
and there is still a lot bandwidth left
20:00
TD-Linux
Bertl, to the Zynq's DRAM? that's pretty impressive
20:00
skoezzie
that's on a zedboard, right?
20:00
Bertl
yep precisely
20:01
TD-Linux
do you use a separate HP port for reading and writing?
20:01
Bertl
yes, we use the HP AXI slave interfaces for memory access
20:01
Bertl
we wrote our own reader/writer
20:02
TD-Linux
ok. I have yet to get that level of performance on my zedboard (using the Xilinx DMA IP)
20:03
skoezzie
what's the definition of simultaneous 4K read/write her? is it 4K monochrome bayered straight from sensor and how many bits per pixel?
20:03
seku
back from work... err... after-work beer
20:03
skoezzie
here*
20:03
TD-Linux
though I have a lot of issues in mine that haven't been fixed yet
20:03
Bertl
TD-Linux: I think most of the IP cores are rather conservative and generic
20:03
Bertl
and sometimes broken :)
20:03
TD-Linux
Bertl, also I just remembered I was doing to the on-chip SRAM rather than DRAM
20:04
Bertl
but feel free to use our code, it is GPL after all
20:05
TD-Linux
Bertl, I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one using the Zynq :)
20:06
Bertl
well, they had nicely priced development boards and Altera didn't want to work with us, so we went the Xilinx route, and the Zynq is a good platform to easily try out things
20:07
TD-Linux
how are you building your project currently?
20:07
Bertl
vivado commandline (if that is what you're asking for)
20:07
TD-Linux
yeah. do you use the top level block diagram builder / IP block features at all?
20:07
Bertl
nope
20:08
TD-Linux
ok. I found them absolutely horrible
20:08
Bertl
yep, I agree
20:08
TD-Linux
also good luck putting the results of that into version control.
20:08
Bertl
yeah, I didn't bother longer than a day or so, I also hate the every changing gui
20:09
Bertl
so I spent a week to figure out the commandline interfaces and create some tcl scripts to actually build the code
20:09
Bertl
the gui is only used to visualize schematics and sometimes to debug xilinx specific stuff
20:09
TD-Linux
yeah I wish I had done that. the process to rebuild a custom IP block is really bad.
20:10
Bertl
so, you're building your own camera? proprietary or open?
20:10
TD-Linux
no I was working on a hardware video compressor
20:10
Bertl
ah, I see, lossy or lossless and what resolution?
20:11
TD-Linux
Daala. it's still very much a WIP (Daala is also a WIP) but the transform part can handle 1080p@24 at least
20:12
TD-Linux
of course there are many other pieces that I need to get to have it fully working.
20:12
Bertl
ah, nice, that's mozilla, no?
20:13
skoezzie
I've got to go guys. Until next time!
20:13
Bertl
cya
20:13
TD-Linux
Xiph and Mozilla
20:13
skoezzie
left the channel
20:13
Bertl
ah yes, I remember
20:20
PRN
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20:38
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
20:38
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
20:42
__anton__
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__anton__
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__anton_
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__anton__
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__anton_
changed nick to: ___anton
20:55
skinkie_
Is gabe around?
20:57
sebix
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20:58
se6astian
I dont see him on the channel currently
21:00
___anton
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21:00
skinkie_
se6astian: need to help him out with the 7020
21:03
Rebelj12a
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21:28
aombk
TD-Linux, can you estimate when your video recorder will be ready?
21:29
aombk
oh, it would be a compressor only or recorder too?
21:37
TD-Linux
aombk, well the hardware part is on hold. Working on making the actual compression format and software better
21:49
Rebelj12a
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21:50
Rebelj12a
Trying this out. LimeChat should be interesting. Rather simple IRC chat. But with notifications support.
21:54
se6astian
great :)
21:54
Rebelj12a
Busy busy busy
21:58
aombk
TD-Linux, will it be close to ready by the time this camera is released?
21:58
aombk
earlyer today i was looking for portable recorders
21:58
TD-Linux
aombk, going for bitstream stable sometime next year
21:58
TD-Linux
so maybe not?
21:58
TD-Linux
not sure it's exactly the right fit anyway
21:58
Rebelj12a
Portable Recorders?
21:58
Rebelj12a
You have thus peaked my interest.
21:59
aombk
Rebelj12a, what do you mean?
22:00
Rebelj12a
Fishing for a new one, versatile. Right now my best bet seems to be the H6 for multiple usages and inputs.
22:00
aombk
a daala recorder would be great!
22:01
Rebelj12a
Let me look at the logs i feel like im missing something lol
22:01
aombk
Rebelj12a, no not audio recorder, video recorder
22:01
Rebelj12a
oh video recorder ok XD
22:01
aombk
i have h6 and its quite good
22:01
Rebelj12a
Beyond me, too bad. Ive been meaning to take apart and dissect my H4n Zoom that got blasted by a bad cable.
22:02
Rebelj12a
Awesome, im glad to hear that, now I just need to afford that in the pool of growing affording affordables.
22:02
aombk
well, the truth is maybe i was a bit more pleased by h4n
22:02
Rebelj12a
See I was under the impression most development for Beta was finished.
22:03
TD-Linux
what video recorders do you guys use now?
22:03
Rebelj12a
Yeah but by all reports the H6 has better pre-amps
22:03
TD-Linux
also what bit depth do you record at?
22:03
aombk
usualy 24
22:03
TD-Linux
for video I mean
22:03
Rebelj12a
Im not using one, I need to be. Looking at the BlackMagic SSD recorder
22:04
Rebelj12a
Possibly for my B camera the Atomos Ninja though im not entirely sold on it
22:04
aombk
TD-Linux, i have never used a video recorder
22:04
aombk
but we will need to with axiom beta
22:04
Rebelj12a
Indeed,
22:04
Rebelj12a
Hdmi out though. There are several ones on the market.
22:05
TD-Linux
Rebelj12a, ok so 10 bit. and uncompressed or prores
22:05
Rebelj12a
Hyperdeck shuttle.
22:05
TD-Linux
do you prefer lossy compression?
22:05
aombk
only se6astian has this alpha prototype and i think he used an atomos product
22:06
Rebelj12a
Ehhhh I lossless is preferred i'd say I dont know, in terms of compression I only have experience with audio.
22:06
Rebelj12a
Lossless
22:06
aombk
i like good lossy compression
22:06
Rebelj12a
all the way
22:06
TD-Linux
lossy is easier because you can guarantee a constant, lower bitrate
22:06
TD-Linux
so demand on the disk is less
22:06
Rebelj12a
True but I usually buy high end SSD anyways. Im not concerned about disk demands really.
22:07
TD-Linux
ok. so really something that just writes y4m frames to disk or whatever would be fine for you
22:07
Rebelj12a
Yeah I mean, im already handling on the Main camera RAW from the BMCC 2.5k
22:07
Rebelj12a
So
22:07
TD-Linux
aombk, so a subset of daala could be a very good prores replacement
22:08
Rebelj12a
I like pro res, but then again im a mac user. Ive been looking at using lightworks. Going to use it for my most recent project and attempt DNxHD
22:08
seku
afaik the hyperdeck only does 1080p30, not p60, that what would be needed for 4k30.
22:08
Rebelj12a
Those two are the industry accepted standards by most as far as ive seen.
22:08
Rebelj12a
Yeah there is that. I only shoot in 24p anyways so.
22:09
seku
4k24 needs 1080p48
22:09
TD-Linux
ok. both are really simple jpeg-like codecs. also both are patented.
22:09
seku
if we stay uncompressed hdmi that is.
22:09
Rebelj12a
Ok jpeg makes me run screaming. Had bad experiences with testing formats and jpeg though.
22:09
aombk
TD-Linux, yes
22:10
seku
mh i need to look into daala
22:10
TD-Linux
Rebelj12a, jpeg isn't that bad at all, especially at high rates where blocking isn't an issue
22:11
Rebelj12a
I probably dont know enough about it to be honest. Im working more at making money first then learning more about bitrates. If anyone had an article to read Id appreciate it. Its just something I havent researched that much.
22:11
Rebelj12a
I just assumed highest bitrate no compression is the best.
22:11
Rebelj12a
btw the Atomos Shogun does 4kp30
22:11
Rebelj12a
wait what? 4k and Raw?
22:11
TD-Linux
seku, are you doing some kind of hack to fit 4k30 in 1080p60?
22:12
aombk
TD-Linux, thats the plan
22:12
Rebelj12a
Can they really do that over hdmi? raw recording? http://www.atomos.com/shogun/
22:13
TD-Linux
what's the other part of the hack? 4k30 is still 2x the pixels as 1080p60
22:13
seku
TD-Linux, not me, i am referrign to se6astian's idea to fit 2x12bit RAW into a 24bit RGB space. if the recorder does 1080p60, that would mean double fps + double storage space = 4 times storage... this 4k30p RAW would be possible
22:13
seku
i love that idea, ingenuous. the recorder needs to do 4:4:4 tho
22:14
Rebelj12a
If you can, thats amazing and awesome.
22:14
seku
bandwidth-wise it would work... naturally it wont be a readable HDMI signal anymore. will need to be "decompiled" :)
22:14
TD-Linux
neat. will, of course, only work uncompressed.
22:15
seku
nods
22:15
Rebelj12a
However an external monitor could be made to do so? Is that through just one HDMI connection? Or could you repurpose one of the others on the beta for viewing?
22:16
seku
the idea with the beat is that up to 2 would be used for 4k recording, and the 3rd one would output vanilla hdmi for monitoring
22:16
Rebelj12a
ahhh ok
22:16
Rebelj12a
Yeah that makes sense.
22:17
Rebelj12a
Been trying to decode the ipt files to Autocad, apparantly its not possible well theres a program that will do it but i dont have it. Which is too bad. I wanted a freestanding movable 3d model of the beta.
22:17
seku
as far as i understood. i'm your typical non-technical afficiando :)
22:18
Rebelj12a
Yes well im probably the high end of your userbase so. If I can understand most will be able to. Hah
22:24
aombk
TD-Linux, do you think daala could compress the raw video color channels separately?
22:24
TD-Linux
aombk, what do you mean?
22:25
aombk
lossy compressed raw
22:27
aombk
compressed bayer data
22:28
aombk
not rgb yuv etc
22:29
TD-Linux
oh. well you can compress the bayer data as three planes
22:30
aombk
yes
22:30
TD-Linux
there's currently not metadata to indicate bayer arrangement and the like
22:30
aombk
daala needs heavy computing right?
22:30
TD-Linux
not especially
22:31
TD-Linux
you'd use a reduced complexity encoder for this
22:31
TD-Linux
I frame only, turn off most features
22:31
TD-Linux
you could make your own incompatible format based off daala
22:31
TD-Linux
if you didn't want to wait for a finalized bitstream
22:33
seku
mh, so many options so little time :)
22:34
seku
first step would be to get uncompressed raw to work, still a lot of work to go there :D
22:34
seku
if theres a way to build Daala based compression in a recorder ... im all for it
22:41
seku
a mindnumbing amount of possibilities *sighs*
22:45
Rebelj12a
Need a math genuis to make a specialized compression format for hdmi.
22:47
seku
luckily there are enough math geniuses that have already worked on image compression
22:48
seku
but i generallly feel that for the beta data acquisition should be raw, compressed losslessly or not. and then we leave it to desktop crunching power to archive it in some format. lossy or not
22:49
seku
no problem going for x265 or higher compression there
22:49
seku
imho that is
22:50
seku
btw that Daala chroma from luma is intriguing
22:56
mithro
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mithro
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23:00
designbybeck__
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23:00
designbybeck_
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23:04
aombk
TD-Linux, so would it be possible you think for a striped version of dala to run inside the camera?
23:13
Rebelj12a
Yeah, red has their own for their raw compression. MLV format?
23:14
theuberkevlar
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23:15
theuberkevlar
aombk, I just got a notice that I've been refunded 1 euro from your campaign. I'm so sorry. ;)
23:15
aombk
yes its was a tragedy. thanks
23:16
theuberkevlar
I wish you could have had at least 1 euro for your birthday.
23:16
aombk
i will remember. next time, flexible campaign :P
23:16
theuberkevlar
hopefully it was still a good birthday, haha
23:17
aombk
so, actually indiegogo or paypal kept your money for so long?
23:18
aombk
the campaign ended on October 09, 2014
23:19
aombk
and you got refunded today?
23:22
theuberkevlar
yup
23:27
aombk
how nice of them
23:28
TD-Linux
aombk, yes it would.
23:28
Rebelj12a
Been meaning to start an Indiegogo or something.
23:28
Rebelj12a
Raise musical awareness in the community I think. Or film and media awareness. Seriously we are sorely lacking here
23:33
G___
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23:36
aombk
Rebelj12a, thats what i tried to do with my campaign! raise awareness :P
23:37
G___
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23:38
G0
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23:38
daFred
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23:39
Rebelj12a
I dont know how to reply that way
23:39
Rebelj12a
anyways, did you use fancy cats and unicorns cause thats what sells it
23:39
G0
changed nick to: GregoryOfManhatt
23:40
Rebelj12a
o.o
23:41
se6astian
time for bed
23:41
Rebelj12a
confused
23:41
se6astian
see you!
23:41
Rebelj12a
night
23:41
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
23:42
aombk
Rebelj12a, what about?
23:42
Rebelj12a
Somehow you are sending me a different type of message and I dont know how you are doing it
23:43
aombk
TD-Linux, thats great! hope someday it gets implemented
23:43
aombk
Rebelj12a, i dont understand
23:44
Rebelj12a
screenshot of what im talking about
23:45
aombk
your irc client flashes?
23:45
aombk
send again
23:45
Rebelj12a
No it highlights my name and formatting changes for specific messages sent to me
23:45
Rebelj12a
dont know why
23:45
aombk
because i write your name in the sentence
23:46
Rebelj12a
thats all? oy
23:46
Rebelj12a
aombk im doing it wrong
23:46
Rebelj12a
didnt do it for me
23:46
aombk
but it did for me
23:46
Rebelj12a
oh ok nevermind i thought it was some sort of inline private message or something blah
23:47
aombk
no it just notifies the person you write his nickname that he got a message
23:47
Rebelj12a
nevermind im fine ignore the crazy person in the corner with the coffee and screwdrivers.
23:50
Rebelj12a
Ok enough screwing with limelight. Im a sucker for customization Nyah
23:55
GregoryOfManhatt
left the channel
23:57
aombk
so what bandwidth will the microsd card shield have?
23:58
Rebelj12a
Arduino?
23:58
aombk
no it will be picozed or parallella i think
23:58
Rebelj12a
Not familiar with those hm
00:00
Rebelj12a
Anyone else think these would make a great form factor for the Gamma Modules? http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/nuc-kit-d54250wyk.html
00:00
Rebelj12a
Not to derail the conversation apologies
00:05
aombk
no problem, there is no conversation its probably just you and me
00:15
__anton__
joined the channel
00:15
Rebelj12a
hmmm
00:47
g3gg0
left the channel