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05:28 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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08:09 | se6astian|away | changed nick to: se6astian
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08:09 | se6astian | good mroning
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08:09 | se6astian | morning
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09:39 | Bertl | morning folks!
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16:49 | Bertl | off for a nap ... bbl
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18:03 | aombk | sometimes this channel turns into apertus team bed visiting hours announcing board
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20:01 | se6astian | aombk: true :)
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20:01 | se6astian | I ll try to slip out more silently from now on
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20:36 | aombk | no no, dont get me wrong, its great!
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20:56 | se6astian | ah, then I ll also report about breakfast, lunch, and teeth brush events :D
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21:06 | aombk | even better!
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21:10 | lab-bot | sebastian closed T278: Native and maximum ISO as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T278
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21:11 | lab-bot | sebastian closed T279: Slow Motion as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T279
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21:25 | troy_s | se6astian: Thank goodness there is a Q&A section now.
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21:27 | se6astian | yes, the "ponder" module in phabricator works better than expected :)
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21:31 | troy_s | se6astian: Thank goodness. Thank goodness. Now maybe some of the ... uh ... chunderers can move there.
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23:07 | se6astian | time for the proper teeth brush
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23:07 | se6astian | and then right into bed
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23:07 | se6astian | 2 pillows
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23:08 | se6astian | 2 blankets
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23:08 | se6astian | good night
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23:08 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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23:12 | Bertl_zZ | changed nick to: Bertl
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23:12 | Bertl | back now ...
| 23:12 | Bertl | is making some tea ...
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23:12 | troy_s | Bertl: aombk wants more status updates.
| 23:12 | Bertl | is working on that ...
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23:14 | troy_s | Bertl: struct Tea {enum type, float minutes_steeped, float milliliters, float mug_color[3] }
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23:14 | Bertl | hmm, that needs some improvements, I use a clear glass :)
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23:15 | troy_s | Bertl: float mug_color rgba[4]
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23:15 | Bertl | much better, premultiplied I presume?
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23:15 | troy_s | Bertl: And you could get really fancy with something like [6.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0]
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23:15 | troy_s | Yes of course.
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23:15 | troy_s | Otherwise you couldn't have a mug that emits lovely red light.
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23:16 | troy_s | (maybe when hot.)
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23:16 | troy_s | Damn.
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23:16 | Bertl | I would suggest rgbia[5] then
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23:16 | troy_s | Amend the struct for a float temperature_Celsius
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23:16 | troy_s | ???
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23:16 | troy_s | What do we need the fifth for?
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23:16 | troy_s | Sheesh.
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23:16 | Bertl | infrared :)
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23:17 | troy_s | Just use a different colorspace and leverage the imaginaries.
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23:17 | troy_s | :P
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23:17 | intracube | filtered vs tap water?
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23:17 | troy_s | Oh I like it.
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23:17 | troy_s | Bool or an enum for filter type?
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23:17 | intracube | yus
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23:17 | intracube | :)
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23:17 | Bertl | we have good tap water here in europe, no need for filtered or bottled water
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23:18 | intracube | Bertl: speak for yourselves! the water in the UK can be... variable
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23:18 | Bertl | okay, let's say austria then :)
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23:18 | Bertl | benefit from the alps I guess
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23:19 | intracube | heh
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23:19 | Bertl | which is a kind of filtration system :)
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23:20 | troy_s | I'll take your tap water and raise it four hundred. (British Columbia. :P )
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23:20 | troy_s | intracube: UGH. How the hell do you begin to deal with "fixing" things when you have folks posting this sort of rubbish? https://developer.blender.org/T43405
| 23:21 | troy_s | coffee.
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23:21 | Bertl | splendor sine occasu
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23:22 | troy_s | intracube: I'll give you an A in colorknowledge if you can spot his two errors.
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23:28 | comradekingu | i guess colours dont saturate evenly, and that they stretch unevenly on the colourscale too
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23:32 | comradekingu | id say brightness is another scale entirelly, i dont understand the question
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23:32 | troy_s | comradekingu: More about his idea of values in RGB in relation to what they mean.
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23:32 | troy_s | comradekingu: That's one of the issues. He makes two key errors:
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23:33 | troy_s | 1) That RGB is somehow a meaningful model. It isn't. It isn't even a colorspace. It's a color model that holds arbitrary and infinite color spaces.
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23:33 | troy_s | 2) That somehow a value of RGB relates to "What someone wants as an artist."
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23:33 | troy_s | and a third
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23:34 | comradekingu | there is a summation error going on
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23:34 | troy_s | 3) That 0.6 means _anything_ on either side of the "What a human is thinking" and "What it means in RGB". For example, the luminance weights for sRGB are about 21-ish% red, 72-ish% green, and 7%ish blue
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23:35 | troy_s | So his assumption that 'brightness' of 80% should be 0.8 is... well whack.
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23:35 | troy_s | *sigh*
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23:35 | troy_s | comradekingu: I'm getting more and more weary tackling color issues. It's just a cascading mess of bad knowledge compounded under the weight of bad knowledge and bad education.
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23:35 | intracube | troy_s: yep, it's not such a good idea to get drawn into specific pixel values
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23:36 | troy_s | (and broken applications that have legacy / historical / nasty ass hacks / wrongs / etc.)
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23:36 | intracube | I wonder if he's noticed that perceptual mid-grey isn't at 0.5
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23:36 | troy_s | intracube: It's really hard to even get into the bug discussion. I chimed in on the color wheel bug only to have a crapload of folks speak first.
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23:36 | troy_s | LOL
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23:36 | troy_s | I hereby coin the phrase MKF discussions. Mash Keyboard First.
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23:38 | comradekingu | if H=0 S=0 V=0.604 relatess to 0.8,0.8,0.8 its only fair that if H=0 S=0 V=0.8 is 0.9,0.9,0.9. it scales
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23:38 | troy_s | comradekingu: The hard part is that as "Simple" as that person's insight was (and as Simple as their Solution was) is actually about three layers of complexity, and that doesn't even cover the surface of the issues.
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23:38 | troy_s | LOL
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23:38 | intracube | but there are still rough areas in the way blender translates the internal 'true linear' values for the end user
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23:39 | intracube | through the UI colorpickers, etc
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23:39 | intracube | troy_s: and RGB curves in the comp are still not really fit for purpose, IMO
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23:39 | troy_s | Technically HSV wheels are a nightmare from a color management position as the V is really never going to be colorspace accurate luminance via OCIO.
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23:39 | troy_s | intracube: I've worked (and am working on the wheel) and there's no real "right" way. Right now my goal is:
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23:40 | comradekingu | i usually dont have the audacity in me to question the software i use with "this is for sure error", gotta admire that
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23:40 | troy_s | 1) Have an artist selectable transfer curve via groupbox (Log, sRGB, 709, linear, CineonLog, etc.)
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23:40 | comradekingu | nono "it is for sure error"
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23:40 | troy_s | 2) Have the circular part and the gradient display the transfer curve selected.
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23:40 | comradekingu | nice idea
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23:40 | troy_s | Of course, I'm sure there are a godawful number of peeps that will go "WHAT IS ALL THIS WHY THE COMPLEXITY WHY WHY WHY WHY"
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23:41 | troy_s | (see this nasty thread of nightmare... https://developer.blender.org/T41287)
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23:41 | comradekingu | but then you have just brought it down to selection bias, those people will discredit said artist for not picking evenly
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23:41 | troy_s | comradekingu: The real issue is that the personal bias is all over color bug reports.
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23:42 | troy_s | comradekingu: "I should be able to pick E8E8E8 and get xxxx.
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23:42 | troy_s | Which is just junk education.
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23:42 | comradekingu | nvm, i thought you were going to have an actual artist map colours to an arbitrary colourwheel in each colourspace
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23:42 | troy_s | And then in that report for example, "Have an sRGB picker"
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23:42 | troy_s | which is like... good god.
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23:42 | troy_s | comradekingu: That _kind_ of happens in a color managed system.
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23:43 | troy_s | comradekingu: For example, if you try the marciewhacked.exr - the primaries are rotated. So Marcie looks deadly wrong with good old purple alien looking skin.
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23:43 | intracube | troy_s: is quite late for my brain to comprehend, but I look forward to the improvements to the picker
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23:43 | troy_s | comradekingu: So based on your chosen colorspace for working in, the primaries can be arbitrary (and this is especially relevant for cameras where each camera sensor has its own color primaries response.)
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23:43 | troy_s | intracube: You might be waiting a while.
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23:44 | troy_s | Even if I patch it, the grumpy Russian would need to commit it.
| 23:44 | intracube | can be patient
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23:44 | intracube | heh
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23:45 | troy_s | Biggest problem? My OpenGL-Fu sucks.
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23:45 | troy_s | I can't think in terms of oldschool triangles and cruft in the OpenGL system.
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23:46 | troy_s | Looking forward to GLNext.
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23:51 | intracube | troy_s: are you saying that it should be possible to switch the colour picker to sRGB mode and that R G B all at 0.5 should give perceptual mid grey?
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23:51 | intracube | or set linear, and have values appear as they do now
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23:51 | troy_s | yes.
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23:52 | troy_s | Well not really
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23:52 | troy_s | because middle grey doesn't live at 0.5 in sRGB but you get the point.
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23:53 | comradekingu | so if the colour picker is a rectangle the corner cases are interpolated values. Less dynamic range on some parts of the rectangle?
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23:53 | intracube | well, slightly off 0.5 (not exactly at 128 8but
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23:53 | intracube | *bit
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23:53 | comradekingu | and im thinking there is another level where you dont percieve colours evenly
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23:54 | troy_s | comradekingu: That's another great point that is often missed.
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23:54 | intracube | troy_s: wouldn't the option be better in the prefs or CM settings?
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23:54 | troy_s | comradekingu: perception isn't linear etc. so the model you pick, when laid out in a nicely symmetrical linear sort of UI element, wastes portions of values etc.
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23:54 | troy_s | intracube: So let's see...
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23:54 | intracube | rather than be on each individual picker
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23:54 | troy_s | intracube: You are painting a quickie texture and you want to place a middle grey display referred value of reddish somewhere...d one.
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23:54 | troy_s | intracube: Now you flip to the bump map
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23:55 | comradekingu | i think if the picker was shaped in the form of a complete colourwheel maybe it would be more obvious what happened when you switched colourspaces
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23:55 | comradekingu | if that works at all
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23:55 | troy_s | intracube: And want to paint the height to be about 50%
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23:55 | troy_s | So... Open up user Preferences.
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23:55 | troy_s | Find the tab
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23:55 | intracube | eh, yeah. I see the issue
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23:55 | troy_s | Flip the colorspace to linear.
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23:55 | troy_s | flip back
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23:55 | troy_s | :)
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23:55 | troy_s | comradekingu: Explain?
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23:56 | comradekingu | can this be the colour picker https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Colorspace.png ?
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23:56 | troy_s | comradekingu: There's a pretty massive disconnect with the shapes we see (both linearized and non linearized and more perceptual (See Macadams)) and shapes we can pick from.
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23:56 | troy_s | So there's no real win.
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23:56 | troy_s | comradekingu: That doesn't work either for much of things... great for picking values as the thing is a linear layout
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23:56 | troy_s | But we don't see color uniformly either.
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23:57 | troy_s | comradekingu: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/CIExy1931_MacAdam.png
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23:57 | troy_s | MacAdam's ellipses
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23:57 | comradekingu | well the user could make their own colourpicker by first doing a test of which colours they can work out
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23:58 | troy_s | comradekingu: A color within those ellipses has a Just Noticeable Difference of < 1.0 (as in a standard observe can't tell the difference easily without more context.)
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23:59 | comradekingu | i have enough trouble accepting that pixels are square
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23:59 | Bertl | they aren't :)
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23:59 | Bertl | it's a myth :)
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