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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2021/01/13

Timezone: UTC


23:23
mumptai
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03:34
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
03:34
Bertl
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BAndiT1983|away
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illwieckz
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07:19
se6ast1an
good day
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mumptai
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BAndiT1983
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BAndiT1983|away
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mumptai
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11:06
Bertl_zZ
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11:06
Bertl
morning folks!
11:09
BAndiT1983
hi
11:48
EmilJ
Hi all. I'll flash the xilinx-provided image and export the devicetree and kernel boot args. However since I'm not even getting into the u-boot shell I don't have a lot of faith that the issue starts only at kernel boot time
11:49
vup2
EmilJ: can you upload those somewhere?
11:49
EmilJ
I will
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15:06
EmilJ
vup2: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2060514
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ZNC
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BAndiT1983
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BAndiT1983
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BAndiT1983|away
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17:42
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
17:43
Bertl
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17:49
RexOrCine
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18:13
anuejn
Bertl_oO: do you know how different the gains are for the beta greens?
18:15
anuejn
and se6ast1an do you have a link of dngs from the micro for me?
18:15
anuejn
I cannot find any on my computer
18:15
anuejn
looks innocent
18:18
se6ast1an
you mean the files you recorded ?
18:20
anuejn
yup
18:20
se6ast1an
uploading to https://cloud.apertus.org/index.php/s/KjJ8NLqpnPA5xjQ
18:20
anuejn
I only need one
18:21
anuejn
thanks :)
18:21
anuejn
how is software able to debayer the dngs from the beta correctly?
18:21
anuejn
it seems the green pixels in the even / odd rows have different gains
18:23
se6ast1an
do you mean which software?
18:23
se6ast1an
or how the software does it?
18:26
anuejn
how software generally does this
18:26
anuejn
eg. darktable
18:28
se6ast1an
there are several standard algorithms: bilinear, AHD, VNG, etc.
18:28
se6ast1an
ufraw is quite handy for choosing them individually
18:28
se6ast1an
the different green gains can lead to maze/grid patterns
18:28
se6ast1an
see examples here: https://sites.google.com/site/cornerfix/using-cornerfix/maze-patterns-1
18:29
mumptai
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18:29
se6ast1an
it can easily be corrected by averaging the two green values in one 2x2 pixel block for example
18:30
se6ast1an
more sophisticated methods surely exist as well
18:30
anuejn
but that gives bad resolution loss?
18:30
anuejn
isnt the different gain a theoretically known factor that could be corrected for?
18:31
se6ast1an
yes
18:31
se6ast1an
the "VNG4" algorithm is known to be resistant to green-crosstalk
18:31
se6ast1an
its one option in ufraw
18:32
se6ast1an
the FPN and PRNU calibration should cancel it out
18:32
se6ast1an
the green differences I mean
18:33
anuejn
ah I guess I am just dumb and interpreted the dng file I had in the wrong way :(
18:33
anuejn
I was thinking that other channels are green than what they really are
18:34
se6ast1an
ah :)
18:43
anuejn
now it looks good
18:43
anuejn
and there is no "gain difference"
18:43
anuejn
sorry for the hassle
18:46
se6ast1an
great
18:46
se6ast1an
images to share?
18:47
anuejn
I am currently not writing any dngs
18:47
anuejn
but I can try :)
18:53
se6ast1an
you are working on the recorder software?
18:56
anuejn
no on the compression
18:57
anuejn
and I tried if it brings any improvements if we interpret the two green planes as one big
18:57
anuejn
spoiler: it doesnt
18:57
anuejn
(at least thats what I concluded)
19:09
se6ast1an
interesting
19:19
se6ast1an
There is the classic approach of chroma subsampling, mode like YCrBb : 4:2:2
19:20
se6ast1an
but I assume that does not translate directly to a raw colorspace
19:25
se6ast1an
should I explain?
19:26
anuejn
I do know how chroma subsampling works
19:26
anuejn
and red does something similiar in their patent with the raw data
19:26
anuejn
but I have to say that I do not really understand why the approach they are describing is good for non black and white images
19:27
se6ast1an
interesting!
19:30
se6ast1an
are you still encoding cineform or is this already outside their standard?
19:31
anuejn
the encoding scheme is from the cineform standart (with a few minor differences)
19:31
anuejn
but the data layout is different
19:32
anuejn
also we are currently skipping some part of the encoding process (some non linear coding of hf coefficients)
19:33
se6ast1an
but do you plan to produce files in the end that can be decoded by the cineform raw software?
19:33
anuejn
probably not
19:33
anuejn
since there seems to be not a lot of benefit and cineform is a huge and really dirty codebase
19:34
anuejn
building something compatible with that seems like not a thing I want to do
19:34
se6ast1an
well it means the footage will not be editable with any established software then...
19:35
anuejn
can anyone really open cineform?
19:35
anuejn
but I really liked the idea of having a frameserver
19:36
anuejn
and then doing something like cinemaDNG
19:36
se6ast1an
let me research what software can directly open cineform raw currently
19:56
BAndiT1983
haven't we researched MLV in 2018 while GSoC?
19:57
BAndiT1983
nice, remembered GEDI (green edge directed interpolation) and our link is first one, even before the PDF we used for it: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/OpenCine.Green_Edge_Directed_Interpolation
20:08
se6ast1an
ok, research complete
20:08
se6ast1an
gopro has killed cineform raw
20:08
se6ast1an
I couldnt get it to open anywhere
20:09
se6ast1an
resolve works with the non raw cineform files out of the box
20:09
se6ast1an
but not the raw one
20:09
se6ast1an
adobe, vlc cant import it either
20:09
se6ast1an
after installing a legacy gopro studio software
20:10
se6ast1an
I can ope the cineform raw files in the adobe suite but it crashes immediately then
20:10
se6ast1an
the gopro studio software cannot open cineform raw files...
20:10
se6ast1an
so the frame server sounds like a good approach :D
20:12
anuejn
:D
20:12
anuejn
fun
20:12
anuejn
after all raw files dont seem like gopros main market segment
20:13
anuejn
tho native cineform raw support would be nice because it allows lower res preview debayering for free
20:14
anuejn
maybe one day we have to add support for our file format in some software ;)
20:19
se6ast1an
well the frameserver would work around exactly that no?
20:22
anuejn
hm... yeah but that wouldnt be as integrated
20:22
anuejn
for example one could not just transparently use different resolutions for playback and rendering
20:25
BAndiT1983
some programs can reload data when they notice changes, so theoretically you can change the header or wherever the resolution is stored, when the user selects different options in the frameserver
20:26
BAndiT1983
or the user also has to reload the clips in the editor, e.g. blender VSE
20:29
anuejn
I tried the blender vse but somehow it was really slow on my machiene
20:29
anuejn
I wasnt able to do fhd playback with color correction at 30fps
20:39
BAndiT1983
seems to be a general problem there -> https://github.com/oormicreations/VSRender
20:40
BAndiT1983
had not many problems in 2012 with FHD and bluescreen, but maybe my memory betrays me
20:41
BAndiT1983
VSE uses multicore, but is also not optimized, at least this is what a quick google search telling me and that's how i've landed on github as someone suggested that addon
20:43
BAndiT1983
for frameserver (gsoc2019) i was considering opencl, or similar, to process the frames faster, plus downscaling like after effects does it, user can select /2, /4 or /8 resolution to lower CPU usage, additionally quick debayering would help to see the preview, but when high-res wide color is required, then frameserver could be set to quality mode for final processing
20:43
BAndiT1983
were just ideas, as the reality depends also on video software and capabilities
21:03
anuejn
se6ast1an: https://files.niemo.de/axiomlabs-roundtripped.dng
21:03
anuejn
vs https://files.niemo.de/axiomlabs-roundtripped.dng
21:04
anuejn
roundtripped is compressed circa 1:4 - 1.5
21:04
BAndiT1983
first one shows additional infos, like resolution and color info, in rawtherapee, any difference in file format?
21:05
anuejn
nope this exactly the same dng with exactly the same metadata
21:05
anuejn
(different one than the original frame but somehow dng writing / reading in python is pita because there are no god libs)
21:05
BAndiT1983
interesting
21:06
BAndiT1983
just a moment
21:07
BAndiT1983
the links are the same
21:07
BAndiT1983
but why the hell is rawtherapee showing more info for one of the files? have to do binary diff
21:07
anuejn
oh I see I pasted the wrong link
21:08
anuejn
second should be https://files.niemo.de/axiomlabs-original.dng
21:10
BAndiT1983
maybe a dumb question, as i wasn't following latest discussion very closely, but what is the difference? size is around 12MB, also from the quick glance while zooming in not that different
21:11
anuejn
the images were compressed to a compressed intermediate format and than converted back to dng
21:11
anuejn
so the size is exactly the same
21:11
anuejn
this is a test to show how visually lossy the compression scheme is
21:12
anuejn
more files in https://files.niemo.de/compare_dng/
21:12
anuejn
with compression ratios in https://files.niemo.de/compare_dng/ratios.txt
21:13
anuejn
this is for some random quantization values which are not optimized for any purpose
21:16
BAndiT1983
thanks for the explanation, will check how to check diff visually
21:17
BAndiT1983
ehm, bad english indeed
21:17
anuejn
hm... generally the images have to much high frequency parts after compression (looking at the eye of the portrait with the glasses)
21:18
anuejn
this might be a thing where we generally want to try remove hf when in doubt as it looks better ;)
21:18
anuejn
BAndiT1983: you can load the folder in rawTherapee. it will keep your current zoom while switching betwen images
21:18
BAndiT1983
haven't found any useful info recently, when Bertl mentioned removing noise and adding it after processing
21:19
BAndiT1983
ah, right, this would also help, google also suggested digikam as it syncs panning and zooming
21:20
anuejn
also AMaZE seems to interact badly with the compression
21:21
anuejn
with VNG4 I see a lot less artifacts
21:21
BAndiT1983
is it some lib which provides them?
21:21
Bertl_oO
hmm, different gains for the geens sounds odd ...
21:22
BAndiT1983
confirmed, if you select the images and choose "place on light table", then you can drag and drop into left and right pane, then zoom and pan, which is in sync
21:24
anuejn
Bertl_oO: it was just me being stupid decoding some dng, nvm
21:24
danieel
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21:25
Bertl_oO
anuejn: ah, okay, happens ...
21:25
anuejn
BAndiT1983: you can select them in a dropdown menu in RawTherapee
21:25
danieel
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21:26
BAndiT1983
ah, my bad, forgot that DNG are not containing the processed data
21:29
se6ast1an
very nice!
21:30
se6ast1an
heading off for today
21:30
se6ast1an
good night
21:31
BAndiT1983
good night
21:32
BAndiT1983
indeed, AMaZE shows some very pronounced maze-like structures (probably where the name comes from), also AMaZE+VNG4 does not improve much there, but VNG4 itself is not that bad
21:33
BAndiT1983
hm, the structures do also appear with other methods, so probably comes from the compression
21:34
anuejn
yup atleast the debayering doesnt interact to well with it
21:34
BAndiT1983
hm, looked at leaf_original and i see same structures there
21:39
anuejn
yup those images are not noise free
21:39
BAndiT1983
looked also at portrait, question would be if the artifacts are noticeable when used as a whole image and not zoomed in
21:39
anuejn
and the debayering does not like that
21:39
BAndiT1983
some years ago, a camera man told us, that they usually want some more realistic look and it's not razor-sharp usually
21:40
BAndiT1983
the one who developed SHOODAK algo
21:40
BAndiT1983
https://www.apertus.org/what-is-debayering-article-october-2015
21:40
BAndiT1983
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Shoodak
21:40
BAndiT1983
off for today, good night
21:40
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
21:41
anuejn
that basically falls into the category "add noise in post" ;)
21:41
anuejn
but definitely a valid approach
21:47
mumptai
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