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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2015/01/12

Timezone: UTC


00:31
jucar
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00:33
intracube
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01:23
marcin___
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01:23
marcin___
This is Marcin from Open Source Ecology. Is the current plan to develop a generalized open source camera platform, or only professional grade?
01:24
marcin___
I am interested in lower quality sensor chips.
01:24
marcin___
Would lower cost sensor chips be readily retrofittable, or is that a heavy development task?
01:24
Bertl
well, the current target is kind of professional, but as it all is open and the interfaces are well known
01:25
Bertl
it should be fairly simple to attach whatever you have sufficient documentation about to the AXIOM (at least on the Beta :)
01:26
Bertl
we will feature a "low end" sensor (the cmv2000/4000) as well, but I guess you are referring to sensors below 150 USD
01:28
Bertl
does that answer your question(s)?
01:39
marcin___
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01:45
fsteinel_
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01:46
marcin___
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01:47
marcin___
Bertl: Ok. What is the cost of the cmv2000/4000?
01:48
fsteinel
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01:51
marcin___
Bertl: Ok. What is the cost of the cmv2000/4000?
02:03
Bertl
I don't have the exact/recent price but IIRC, below 250 USD
02:04
Bertl
the CMV4000 is around 300 EUR IIRC
02:08
marcin___
Ok. Have you produced any Open Source Digital Camera Design for Dummies materials? We are big on PhoneBloks style modularity, and we are developing such hypermodular machines in the heavy industry space.
02:09
Bertl
no big documentation so far, but that will come with the Beta
02:09
Bertl
most information is on the wiki or "in" the source code right now
02:13
fsteinel_
changed nick to: fsteinel
02:16
danieel
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02:17
marcin___
Do you have any Axiom Harware Architecture Design Concept files - showing the modular breakdown and component choices made?
02:17
danieel
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02:19
Bertl
check out the indiegogo page, it probably still contains the most compact information about the Axiom Beta, although we already changed some things based on feedback
02:19
Bertl
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera
02:27
intracube
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02:27
marcin___
Where could I find your hardware and circuit files?
02:28
Bertl
either on github or here http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/
02:28
marcin___
Is the hardware design for the Axiom Beta complete?
02:29
Bertl
nope, not yet
02:34
marcin___
Is there a way to order an Axiom Beta at this time? Or that's for later once the Beta ships to the Indiegogo supporters? What price point are you aiming for for the completed camera including fabrication costs?
02:35
marcin___
Are you Herbert?
02:35
Bertl
at the moment there is no way to get a Beta, but it will be sold once the Backers got a chance to get their Beta.
02:35
Bertl
yes, I'm Herbert
02:36
Bertl
for the price, we will see as the camera will be sold at cost to the backers
02:38
jucar
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02:38
marcin___
Ok. We'd like to add this to our open hardware tools that we use at Open Source Ecology. Have you seen my TED Talk? http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski?language=en
02:43
Bertl
now I have. sounds cool!
02:43
Bertl
but it will take some work to get all documented properly for this purpose
02:44
Bertl
but it matches our goal that anybody can build and extend the AXIOM
02:45
marcin___
Can you point me to any decent references on the design of Modular Digital Camera Architectures?
02:46
marcin___
Is there any other open source digital camera project that you know of?
02:46
Bertl
not really, as far as I know we are the first one to tackle this
02:46
Bertl
yes, the elphel project
02:46
Bertl
and there are other projects focusing on "low end" video
02:57
jucar
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03:01
jucar
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03:14
marcin___
Bertl: What is the open source "low end" video project?
03:16
intracube
left the channel
03:17
Bertl
mostly webcam based solutions, nothing which provides a complete camera solution
03:17
Bertl
(I presume that's what you're looking for)
03:17
Bertl
elphel is probably the closest so far
03:27
danieel
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03:27
danieel
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03:30
marcin___
If the BOM cost you suggest on Indiegogo is about $1250, do you expect your manufactured cost to be about 2x that?
03:31
Bertl
yes, about that
03:33
marcin___
Also, the Project Partners fro Axiom Gamma - are they all aboard with the open hardware aspect? If so, that's a major accomplishment for open hardware.
03:33
Bertl
yes, they are
03:34
Bertl
we had to decline a bunch of potential partners because they had problems with FOSS/OH
03:34
marcin___
Did they all agree to the CERN license?
03:35
Bertl
the Gamma licenses are not yet set in stone, but for sure it will be an open design (so most likely cern OHL)
03:43
marcin___
Ok. Are you working on developing your own license? If so, I'd like to collaborate, as we are looking to develop our own.
03:44
aombk
marcin___, about this ted talk, why did you do it? did it help your cause in any way?
03:44
Bertl
we haven't considered that yet, so far the OHL has been sufficient
03:51
troy_s
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03:55
marcin___
aombk, I applied to be a TED Fellow and made it, then gave this talk. Most people hear about our project through the TED Talk.
03:55
Bertl
just curious, did you encounter a problem with the Cern OHL?
03:56
marcin___
So yes, major visibility and doors open.
03:56
marcin___
Who are you aombk?
03:57
aombk
i am not part of the team
03:58
Bertl
but definitely part of the community here :)
04:01
aombk
oh thank you, you are so kind :P
04:01
Bertl
you're welcome :p
04:04
marcin___
Ok, gotta go. Who is the best person to communicate with at Apertus? Is IRC a good channel? Is Facebook the best for updates?
04:05
Bertl
IRC is the main communication channel but e-Mail is fine as well.
04:05
Bertl
there are also some mailing lists which can provide digested "news"
04:06
Bertl
for technical details, you best contact me, and for organizational things, se6astian
04:17
marcin___
left the channel
04:30
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
04:30
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
05:42
troy_s
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05:43
troy_s
Fsck Ted
05:43
troy_s
All of it.
06:14
morrigan1
changed nick to: morrigan
07:51
ItsMeLenny
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07:54
niemand
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08:04
niemand
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09:51
troy_s
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10:59
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
10:59
se6astian
good day
11:00
mars_
morning se6astian
12:00
lab-bot
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12:00
lab-bot
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12:05
Q_
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13:42
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
13:42
Bertl
morning folks!
13:50
aombk
hi
13:54
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
13:54
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
14:08
designbybeck_
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14:25
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
14:30
ItsMeLenny
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14:55
ItsMeLenny
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14:55
ItsMeLenny
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15:35
aombk
someone told me that canon c100 c300 and c500 buttons are hard and noclick
15:43
davidak
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15:47
comradekingu
aombk: i can try at work
15:48
comradekingu
we have c300s
15:55
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
15:56
se6astian
back
16:25
aombk
yes comradekingu check that c300
16:50
dmjnova
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16:59
dmjnova
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17:08
comradekingu
aombk: how about mathias quiet alps, they are very nice. or topre
17:14
aombk
but these are keyboards.
17:14
aombk
anyway, i dont know. se6astian wants some feedback on pro camera buttons
17:16
aombk
you thought i was talking about some c300 keyboard?
17:17
se6astian
Canon C300 please
17:21
comradekingu
Canon c300 isnt the quality to aim for, just saying
17:23
comradekingu
nkk, omron, alps, are the places to go for switches
18:07
se6astian
comradekingu: we ordered a few samples from omron, alps, c&k components and multimec
18:16
comradekingu
nice
18:33
hozer
well dammit, I missed giving _marcin a hard time
18:35
hozer
cause TED is for posers and personally it's easier for me to just AGPLv3 for hardware. ( www.q3u.be) .. but I should probably talk to a lawyer about that first
18:56
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
18:56
Bertl
back now ...
18:57
se6astian
hello!
19:00
aombk
i am afraid of those TED people
19:02
hozer
HAH, why
19:03
hozer
... I am mostly afraid for people who believe what most of the TEDtalkers say
19:04
hozer
se6astian: are you working on the mixeo too?
19:04
aombk
well lots of reasons
19:05
aombk
they themselves believe what they are saying
19:05
aombk
and they have huge willpower
19:07
se6astian
mixeo?
19:10
lab-bot
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19:16
philippej
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19:17
lab-bot
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19:20
hozer
http://m-labs.hk/mixxeo.html
19:20
philippej|away
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19:20
philippej|away
changed nick to: philippej
19:21
se6astian
interesting project, never heard of it before
19:21
hozer
yeah
19:22
se6astian
ah its from a usual suspect ;D
19:22
Bertl
and that after you talked with Sébastien at EHSM :)
19:22
se6astian
Sébastien Bourdeauducq who invited us to EHSM
19:22
hozer
I can think of some really cool stuff that could be done with an apertus camera and mixxeos
19:24
hozer
or just collaborate with m-labs/mixxeo to find some really good buttons and make the mixxeo be the remote control
19:25
aombk
it also has a fader!
19:26
Bertl
whoa! :)
19:26
aombk
zooming and focusing with a fader would be awesome
19:28
hozer
well, you probably need at least 3 faders..
19:28
hozer
zoom, focus, and HDR gain adjustment
19:51
hozer
this is one of the coolest things I've seen in awhile.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygcm0AQXX9k
19:53
hozer
http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/
19:58
se6astian
brb
20:00
Bertl
hozer: nice
20:08
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
20:09
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
20:11
intracube
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20:12
rhavan
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20:12
rhavan
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20:43
se6astian
any motion graphics or 3d animators around?
20:45
marcin___
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20:46
Bertl
hozer: there is your chance :)
20:47
Bertl
wb marcin___!
20:48
marcin___
Bertl - no, no issues with CERN license.
20:48
marcin___
Just details.
20:50
marcin___
What is the market volume for professional cameras? Is it on the order of 1000 sold per year? Do you have any market data links?
20:52
marcin___
I wanted to ask if you have considered Efficient Production On the Quantity of One. We specialize in that. For example, we can build our 1 ton brick press in a single day by using volunteers in a weekend immersion workshop. We are doing this for all of our machines. Have you thought about this for Axiom?
20:53
Bertl
not really yet, although I try to be as efficient as possible when building the Axiom :)
21:01
se6astian
we can do an assembly party and all visit Bertl on the weekend
21:06
marcin___
left the channel
21:13
hozer
dammit
21:13
hozer
why does he always leave
21:15
hozer
seems like the first thing the open source ecology project needs is an open-source hardware satelite link
21:18
hozer
The problem with marcin___'s project is he's re-inventing new designs for things that I can get used, like tractors, and what I really need is an open-source hardware NSF-certifiable soy milk maker
21:18
hozer
or something that makes tofu.
21:18
hozer
or a computer vision system with Axiom cameras that I can put on my antique combine
21:19
hozer
or a high-dynamic range welding mask
21:21
dmjnova
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21:21
hozer
well, or some sort of HDR-camera combined with a plasma cutter/welder so I can cut and weld in confined spaces to repair antique tractors and combines without disassembling them
21:22
cfelton
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21:23
cfelton
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21:24
dmjnova
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21:26
marcin___
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21:26
marcin___
What is the market volume for professional cameras? Is it on the order of 1000 sold per year? Do you have any market data links?
21:26
Bertl
hozer: like the "lantern"?
21:26
Bertl
marcin___: no idea
21:26
marcin___
How do I not get booted off IRC if my computer goes dormant?
21:27
hozer
aaah, run it from a server?
21:27
Bertl
marcin___: by using an irc bouncer
21:27
hozer
I run finch on my server that's running all the time
21:28
niemand
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21:28
Bertl
there is also bip and muh
21:28
marcin___
bertl - such as ZNC on ubuntu?
21:28
hozer
or there's this: http://irc.apertus.org/index.php?day=12&month=01&year=2015
21:29
hozer
(irc log)
21:29
Bertl
yes, you can also simply read up on the irc logs
21:29
hozer
well, only if the channel has logs
21:30
hozer
Bertl: I'm not familiar with the lantern reference
21:31
Bertl
marcin___: but ZNC won't help if you install it on the computer which goes "dormant"
21:31
Bertl
hozer: FOSS outernet receiver
21:32
hozer
znc needs to be run on your server
21:32
Bertl
or _a_ server :)
21:34
hozer
so is lantern actually FOSS, or pseudo-OSS cause it makes good marketing
21:34
marcin___
How many professional cameras are there in the world, guess? 1 Million?
21:35
hozer
well, I don't think the point is pro cameras, it's the interesting things you can do with a pro-level camera that are not possible with proprietary cameras
21:36
hozer
like a high-dynamic range welding mask that lets you see the arc and the workpiece
21:37
marcin___
Ok. Statistics for later. How do I set up an irc log on opensourceecology.org? Install IRC client first, then set up log? I'm not a programmer.
21:37
hozer
so how many professional TIG welders (people) are there in the world
21:38
hozer
well 1, create a separate account for irc
21:38
hozer
2: sudo apt-get install finch
21:38
marcin___
Professional welders - about 1 for every 1000 population at least, so I estimate 7 million as a low count.
21:41
hozer
how many of them would want one of these: http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/
21:42
hozer
every farmer I know has at least 2 welders
21:43
hozer
so I'd say the open, component-based HDR welding camera market is at least 10,000
21:43
marcin___
If we use Freenode IRC, can I easily create an IRC log from that?
21:43
marcin___
http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/IRC
21:44
hozer
what does apertus use for logging?
21:44
Bertl
a small (yet unpublished) program that I wrote a few years ago
21:45
Bertl
actually more than a century ago :)
21:45
hozer
hah
21:45
hozer
interesting comments: https://www.apertus.org/irc-archives-available-article
21:46
hozer
marcin___: also have a look at https://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml , which gives some reason why you might *not* want to have irc logs
21:47
hozer
so maybe keep them for yourself, which is what I sometimes do
21:53
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
21:53
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
21:53
marcin___
So the main case against IRC logs is that IRC is more of a private discussion where people don't expect their words to be recorded for ever?
21:54
intracube
se6astian: why are you asking for motion graphics folk?
21:55
marcin___
What is the critique of TED Talks - I have seen some comments in the log implying their negative side?
21:56
marcin___
Why did Apertus publish ists IRC logs? Because the temperature here is low?
21:56
hozer
hrrm, cause irc has a long history of flamewars, and so you tend to write in interactive media for the people interactively participating in the conversation
21:58
hozer
hrrm. TED talks. Sometimes I feel like the people that give TED talks are better at marketing than doing
21:59
hozer
I can't actually figure out a coherent critique besides that right now
22:00
marcin___
What do you suggest for a log of technical development discussions? I've seen forums blow up on this. I was hoping that IRC may contain a valuable 'history.' But maybe some Stack Overflow upvoting mediium must be best for distilling technical discussion? I'm trying to figure that out for OSE.
22:00
hozer
so I like mailing lists, and IRC
22:01
hozer
because that's what I'm familiar with, and they both have *standard* protocols and open-source servers
22:01
hozer
forums are centralized, and I have little choice on how to view the forum
22:02
hozer
where as email and irc I have several options for the client of my choice. Also think about how do visually impaired people participate in these discussions
22:02
marcin___
RepRap forums are centralized, for example?
22:03
hozer
yes
22:03
hozer
any forum, while it might be open source, how do I get a copy if maintainer running the forum gets pissed off or runs out of money?
22:03
marcin___
So if you were running the reprap project, you would get rid of forums and go to mailing lists to facilitate technical development?
22:04
hozer
well
22:05
hozer
with unlimited budget, I'd contract developers to write a new interface for GNU mailman so it looks like the latest greatest most popular forum
22:05
hozer
and you can either use the 'integrated' mail client, or, you know, an actual email client ;)
22:06
hozer
so a forum that uses SMTP and mbox or maildir format as the database backend for posts
22:06
Hyuri
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22:06
niemand
left the channel
22:06
hozer
with a web-based IRC chatbox that redirects to freenode :)
22:07
marcin___
With IRC log or not?
22:07
hozer
hrrm
22:07
hozer
optional to the end-user
22:07
hozer
or maybe the channel
22:08
hozer
I think there's a bit of a social-convention choice.. do you want to be 'off the record', or post public logs
22:08
marcin___
Is the idea that the Forum format issue of 'maintainer getting pissed off' or 'running out of money' addressed by email lists because everyone keeps copies of the emails in their email client?
22:08
marcin___
I think public for transparency.
22:09
marcin___
So have transparency, and maintain temperature low.
22:09
hozer
yes
22:09
hozer
to public/transparency.
22:10
hozer
there are two things with forums: why does it need to be a database when I filesystem of mbox directories works just fine as a database
22:10
hozer
s/I/the/
22:10
marcin___
Yes to "Email keeping copies of all discussions in email client" - thus the information content is fully decentralized?
22:11
hozer
I think with email-based, you have a copy in your own personal archives. No need to contact a server that might be hard to reach
22:12
hozer
another approach would be to use a bitcoin-like blockchain where all messages are stored in the blockchain, replicated to every full node running the software
22:12
hozer
and if you did that right and had a currency with it, you could tip the people who made valuable contributions
22:13
marcin___
Is it true that Bitcoin or its blockchain is inherently unscalable because the blockchain gets too heavy over time?
22:14
hozer
well, that's an argument against it
22:14
marcin___
hozer - who are you at https://apertus.org/team
22:14
marcin___
?
22:15
hozer
heh, some random free software advocate ;)
22:15
hozer
well, free hardware
22:15
hozer
I am www.7el.us
22:16
hozer
you also might like http://q3u.be/ ... my opinion is that the civilization start kit has to include a piece of hardware that comes with the full design specs to replicate that piece of hardware
22:18
hozer
the biggest gap I see farming is I can find plenty of tractor/combine/equipment parts, but if John Deere loses the firmware to the engine controller in a 2008 combine, we have a major problem
22:18
hozer
so at some point I have to be able to fabricate replacement silicon chips on my farm
22:20
marcin___
Right. GVCS 50 goes up to aluminum smelting from Clay. After that it's semiconductor production. That's part of the package by 2035, but I'm hopinb by 2025 if I can get my shit together.
22:20
hozer
the big thing you're missing is ability to feed yourselves
22:21
hozer
I think building smaller 2 or 4 row combine harvesters, threshers, and grain millers is the biggest missing link right now ;)
22:21
marcin___
Working on it. Mark Shepard is coming September, and we are intending to raise the full CSA operation - I see amazing words on this topic on your site.
22:21
hozer
Btw, I have 20,000 lbs of tofu soybeans if you want me to send you any
22:22
marcin___
Part of our work is developing a virally scalable distributed CSA operations. To get market share of honest food above 50% across the globe. Does that interest you?
22:22
hozer
so maybe we should create #ose
22:23
hozer
cause this is technically a camera channel
22:23
hozer
although we need those cameras to get good video of running the CSA
22:23
marcin___
I think building smaller 2 or 4 row combine harvesters, threshers, and grain millers is the biggest missing link right now ;) - it's in the works, first step is the base traction platform of the Tractor Construction Set. Goal is to develop new implements on 2 week time scale. Modular contract first desiign.
22:24
hozer
my biggest critique of the OSE project is I'll believe it when you can grow enough food to feed everyone that volunteers there
22:25
marcin___
Yes, we're spamming the camera channel, but I wanted to ask - is dynamic range suggested in http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/ possible with the proposed Axion CMOS?
22:25
hozer
until then I need to work on vision platforms for my antique 8 row combines :)
22:26
hozer
well, they did say it's open/free hardware, and we are talking about derivative work(s) ;)
22:26
marcin___
"I'll believe it when ..." point well taken, and I say the same. This year we are beginning on ag, as theh machines are good enough to apply them now.
22:27
marcin___
hozer - are you an Apertus core developer?
22:27
marcin___
Is your soybean organic?
22:28
marcin___
Do you want to move to http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/OSE_IRC or stay here?
22:29
hozer
let's go to #opensourceecology
22:30
hozer
no, I am not on the core team
22:31
hozer
soybeans are conventional, non-gmo, high-protein tofu variety
22:32
hozer
I just ran across apertus a few days ago and thought it was the coolest free hardware project I had run across in awhile
22:43
dmjnova
ping se6astian
22:51
marcin___
Is the dynamic range suggested in http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/ possible with the proposed Axion CMOS? Or that would be another CMOS?
22:54
marcin___
Bertl - is dynamic range suggested in http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/ possible with the proposed Axion CMOS?
23:00
designbybeck_
left the channel
23:09
se6astian
time for bed
23:09
se6astian
good night
23:09
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
23:13
Hyuri
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23:15
marcin___
left the channel
23:18
hozer
Bertl_zZ: can you share the code for the irc log?
23:36
dmjnova
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dmjnova
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