Current Server Time: 02:05 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2018/11/11

Timezone: UTC


00:02
Bertl_oO
yeah, well, if you decide to take it apart, make some high resoultion scans of the PCBs
00:02
Spirit532
taking the right side lid off right now
00:02
Spirit532
will see if I can maybe lift it a little
00:02
Bertl_oO
then we can speculate which part is what and what it's used for
00:02
Spirit532
what about the image?
00:03
Spirit532
think it can be fixed in post?
00:03
Bertl_oO
if you _know_ exactly what's going wrong, chances are good that you can 'fix' it in post
00:03
danieel
the calibration data will be on a flash on the sensor board - which is through that flex.. so low chances of fixing it
00:03
Bertl_oO
the problem here is that you actually do not know what's going on here
00:04
Spirit532
what I know is that it's static
00:04
Bertl_oO
that's good, makes it easier to address
00:04
Spirit532
the curve doesn't change
00:04
Spirit532
and the ISO on this camera is a digital gain anyway
00:04
danieel
the 2k5 bmcc has a 256mbit flash, for the 5MP sensor (which is used even in crop mode at ~ 3.5MP)
00:05
Bertl_oO
for the FPN corrections or for general calibration data?
00:07
Spirit532
they'll probably be in the same place
00:07
Spirit532
but I just took off the side, nope, no flash on the bottom
00:07
Spirit532
I'd really rather not take it apart further until I'm certain it can't be fixed in post
02:31
danieel
I have played with the data... the result is that it is not possible to fix that in the post
02:31
danieel
reason is, that the data is already cooked from wrong components
02:32
danieel
the sensor offer separate low and high gain readouts, from which you subtract the calibration data, and then multiply one with the gain difference
02:33
danieel
so these merge artifacts are in the area wher the lg switches to hg
02:34
danieel
had played a lot with a similar sensor (CIS2521F) where i had access to both of those raw channels
03:02
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
03:02
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
04:08
Spirit532
danieel, ripping the camera apart... gently
04:08
Spirit532
about 50% of the way through
04:13
Spirit532
danieel, yup
04:13
Spirit532
fuck
04:14
Spirit532
it's a spansion flash that appears to have the teenage problem of 0201 caps growing around it
04:19
intrac
left the channel
04:32
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/KCWD0.jpg
04:32
Spirit532
here's the culprit.
04:32
Spirit532
well at least I think it is
04:33
Spirit532
also, yeah, I know, that thermal paste is disgustingly bad
04:36
Spirit532
64MB
04:36
Spirit532
and... SPI?
04:36
Spirit532
it might be hackable to be honest
04:37
Spirit532
if it doesn't work, I could take it out, read it myself via deadbug
04:37
Spirit532
then buy another one, flash it in
04:37
Spirit532
and solder it back on
04:43
Spirit532
.5mm pitch it looks like
04:43
Spirit532
The package and/or data
04:43
Spirit532
integrity may be compromised if the package body is exposed to temperatures above 150°C for prolonged periods of time.
04:43
Spirit532
and I may kill it further if I reflow, great
06:44
niteesh
joined the channel
07:34
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
08:26
intrac
joined the channel
08:40
niemand
joined the channel
08:40
niemand
left the channel
08:40
niemand
joined the channel
09:00
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
09:15
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
09:35
niteesh
left the channel
10:28
danieel
i have that 2K5 board from which the 32MB of flash could be taken off.. but I have no BGA socket/reader for this
11:56
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
11:57
danieel
one word of warning - if you preheat that sensor board from bottom (sensor side) then the cover glass of the sensor will delaminate :)
12:10
niteesh
joined the channel
12:30
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
12:45
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
12:45
Bertl
morning folks!
12:52
Spirit532
danieel, I don't plan on preheating it
12:52
Spirit532
is that going to be a bad thing?
12:56
Spirit532
also I just realized that you're Daniel Rozsnyo, and we know each other
13:01
Spirit532_
joined the channel
13:01
Spirit532
left the channel
13:01
Spirit532_
changed nick to: Spirit532
13:08
Kjetil
Does the board have buried vias or are there visible vias beneath the BGA?
13:21
Bertl
the chip shouldn't be too hard to remove or resolder
13:21
Spirit532
I won't be removing it
13:21
Spirit532
but I think I'm ready now
13:21
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/LkF0N.jpg
13:21
Spirit532
emissivity set for epoxy
13:21
Spirit532
I shouldn't overheat it
13:22
Kjetil
As danieel said it might delaminate the sensor you should probably protect it somehow
13:22
Bertl
well, cooling down the board is nice but doesn't help much
13:23
Spirit532
the sensor is under it and the glass is pretty far away
13:23
Spirit532
Bertl, it's a thermal camera
13:23
Spirit532
I'm watching the temperatures live
13:23
Bertl
you need to heat up the BGA balls and the pads
13:23
Spirit532
yep
13:24
Bertl
the best way to do that for both reseating as removing is to use a thin copper foil directly on the part
13:24
Spirit532
I'm not removing it
13:24
Spirit532
I'm heating it up until the solder just melts
13:24
Spirit532
and then poking it to reseat the balls
13:24
Bertl
attach with some flux and heat directly with the solder iron
13:24
Spirit532
I can't clean it
13:24
Spirit532
so I can't do ultrasonic
13:25
Spirit532
I mean the other way around
13:25
Spirit532
so no flux
13:25
Bertl
no need to clean good flux
13:25
Kjetil
-"need to" :)
13:25
Spirit532
you need to clean all flux
13:25
Spirit532
:P
13:26
Spirit532
and I don't have anything that good
13:26
Bertl
any flux which is labeled 'no clean' doesn't need to be removed
13:26
Spirit532
it's labelled "no cleaner" technically
13:26
Spirit532
it can be rinsed off
13:26
Spirit532
but you can't leave any flux on a board
13:26
Bertl
of course you can remove excessive amounts with a special q-tip
13:27
Bertl
well, whatever you say :)
13:28
Spirit532
so what should I set it to for unleaded solder in this case
13:28
Spirit532
around 280ish?
13:29
Bertl
heat gun or solder iron?
13:29
Spirit532
air
13:29
Bertl
you very likely need above 300 for that, better 320-350
13:29
Bertl
you also want low air flow because otherwise the small components around it will fly away
13:30
Spirit532
yup
13:31
Bertl
note: if it is a bad contact, you also want some BGA flux (that's the completely liquid one) there otherwise a possible broken solder ball will not reconnect
13:38
Spirit532
okay, I got it to float
13:38
Spirit532
tapped it
13:38
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/6UZr4.png
13:38
Spirit532
but damn
13:38
Spirit532
this thing soaks up heat like a magnet
13:38
Spirit532
only had a second or two to remove the heat
13:39
Spirit532
sensor glass did not delaminate
13:39
Spirit532
and the rubber seal didn't buble
13:39
Spirit532
bubble*
13:42
Spirit532
should I try float-assembling it on the desk and powering it on, or should I just assemble the whole thing as it is?
13:48
Spirit532
nope, I've decided to assemble the whole thing
13:48
Spirit532
not leaving it up to chance that a missing component makes it not boot
13:49
Spirit532
but first, to photograph the whole thing, for future reference and a stupid article
14:05
RexOrCine|away
changed nick to: RexOrCine
14:13
danieel
well, the multilayer boards are lot of copper, especially with the shielding planes
14:14
danieel
and BM is usually placing copper also on outside, to avoid EMC issues (both directions)
14:15
Spirit532
yeah this thing looks like at least 8 layers
14:15
Spirit532
maybe 16
14:16
Bertl
off for now .... bbl
14:16
Spirit532
I'll photograph everything after I take this break, then assemble and see how badly I screwed this up
14:16
Spirit532
:P
14:16
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
14:21
danieel
the fpga is a z7030 / z7045 ?
14:21
Spirit532
I don't see any writing
14:21
Spirit532
will take a look in a bit once I get to photographing the pcb
14:21
danieel
have you cleaned it?
14:22
Spirit532
I'm not very keen on taking the heatsink off
14:22
Spirit532
but I guess I will
14:22
danieel
not the heatsink.. just the paste
14:22
Spirit532
follow the logic
14:22
Spirit532
where does the paste reside?
14:22
Spirit532
heh
14:38
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/9fae3.jpg
14:38
Spirit532
here's a high res(but not full yet, will reshoot) shot of the sensor board with all the chips visible
14:39
Spirit532
the spansion chip has spots now that I look at it
14:39
Spirit532
but I'm pretty sure that's just from me tapping it with the not perfectly clean hot air nozzle
14:48
Spirit532
is anyone here registered on bmcuser for a few months?
14:49
Spirit532
there's someone wanting to buy a dead ursa mini 4.6k, I was going to try to talk to him about me buying his instead, but it seems like I'm still not approved...
15:28
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
15:43
Spirit532
yeah I'm not taking this heatsink off
15:43
Spirit532
it's ridiculously tight even without screws
15:55
se6astian
Spirit532: very interesting insights into this hardware
15:55
se6astian
do you wanna share it in the teardowns section of the apertus wiki? https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Teardowns
15:56
Spirit532
I will once I'm done with the photoshoot
15:56
Spirit532
absolutely
16:03
se6astian
great!
16:03
Spirit532
at this point I'd love to own an axiom beta
16:03
Spirit532
I just want something that will do 4K60 :(
16:04
Spirit532
buuut it doesn't do internal recording(yet?)
16:04
Spirit532
I think you'd have to sacrifice the HDMI connector to have enough transceivers for SATA, right?
16:10
se6astian
no internal recording on the beta yet correct
16:10
se6astian
and HDMI output is limited to 1080p60 currently
16:11
Spirit532
any major improvements over the last year-ish?
16:11
se6astian
SATA is not in development yet but a USB3 module is hardware complete
16:11
Spirit532
I guess it can be a very expensive machine vision camera :P
16:12
se6astian
or very expensive webcam :)
16:12
Spirit532
I have a cmv2k usb3 cam for that
16:12
se6astian
6G SDI plugin module hardware gen2 is also close to being hardware finished
16:13
Spirit532
that's 4k30
16:13
Spirit532
so at least something filmic
16:17
felix_
the hardware has dual 6g sdi outputs and single 6g sdi input
16:17
Spirit532
can't do 12G SDI over 2x6G though, can you?
16:18
felix_
https://github.com/felixheld/AXIOM-photonSDI-hw
16:19
felix_
dual 6g sdi can transport 4k@60fps; should be compatible with 12g sdi if you use one of those magic sdi muxing/demuxing boxes
16:20
Spirit532
it'd be nice to have a single 12G-SDI output and a 3G in
16:20
felix_
the gtps of the artix7 we're using there only supports up to 6g and for 12g we'd need to use a kintex7
16:20
Spirit532
ah
16:21
Spirit532
have an external mux IC?
16:21
Spirit532
or is that usually just done with an fpga
16:21
felix_
that external mux ic would cost more than going to the smallest kintex7 fpga with 12g gtx
16:22
Spirit532
the ultrazed-eg or ev are very nice
16:22
Spirit532
basically a direct upgrade to the microzed
16:22
Spirit532
but with the new mpsoc
16:24
felix_
that would probably require a major redesign of the camera though?
16:24
Spirit532
I don't think they're pin-compatible
16:24
Spirit532
but functionality is just a direct upgrade
16:25
Spirit532
it's a lot more expensive though
16:25
Spirit532
$534 in single quantities
16:25
Spirit532
$440 in 500
16:28
felix_
the GS12070 (12g sdi gearbox chip) costs 100 euros before tx in single quantities
16:28
Spirit532
but since there's two 6G gtps, it would be interesting to see dual SATA3 instead of dual 6G-SDI
16:28
Spirit532
that would allow for full speed interleaved recording
16:28
Spirit532
the same as it does on the ursas
16:28
Spirit532
(cfast is sata3)
16:29
felix_
when the 6g sdi module is finished and the gateware developed, i'm planning to make a sata board. that's mostly removing stuff from the board and add the sata connectors
16:30
Spirit532
either of those would instantly turn it into a proper cinema camera
16:30
Spirit532
:P
16:30
felix_
that's the plan ;)
16:32
felix_
for the sata gateware, litesata can probably be extended without too much hassle
16:35
felix_
iirc litesata is currently only for the kintex7 fpgas, so the phy layer needs to be extended; not sure if some higher-lever things need to extended as well
16:37
niteesh
left the channel
17:03
Spirit532
danieel, nope :(
17:03
Spirit532
reflowing the chip did nothing
17:03
Spirit532
and the hardware id is still "value"
17:03
Spirit532
this sucks.
18:27
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
18:48
danieel
nothing unexpected :)
18:55
Spirit532
so I guess all the bits did leak out of it
19:06
intrac
left the channel
19:14
illwieckz
left the channel
19:21
Bertl_oO
Spirit532: I'd suggest to make high-res scans as well
19:21
Spirit532
I took 20MP photos
19:22
Bertl_oO
not as usefull as 2kdpi scans
19:39
intrac
joined the channel
19:43
Spirit532
I don't have a scanner
19:50
illwieckz
joined the channel
20:00
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
20:14
Bertl_oO
you are missing a lot for repairs :)
20:24
Spirit532
money, mostly
21:30
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
22:17
niemand
left the channel
22:21
intrac
left the channel
22:21
intrac
joined the channel
22:46
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away