Current Server Time: 21:25 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2018/11/11

Timezone: UTC


23:02
Bertl_oO
yeah, well, if you decide to take it apart, make some high resoultion scans of the PCBs
23:02
Spirit532
taking the right side lid off right now
23:02
Spirit532
will see if I can maybe lift it a little
23:02
Bertl_oO
then we can speculate which part is what and what it's used for
23:02
Spirit532
what about the image?
23:03
Spirit532
think it can be fixed in post?
23:03
Bertl_oO
if you _know_ exactly what's going wrong, chances are good that you can 'fix' it in post
23:03
danieel
the calibration data will be on a flash on the sensor board - which is through that flex.. so low chances of fixing it
23:03
Bertl_oO
the problem here is that you actually do not know what's going on here
23:04
Spirit532
what I know is that it's static
23:04
Bertl_oO
that's good, makes it easier to address
23:04
Spirit532
the curve doesn't change
23:04
Spirit532
and the ISO on this camera is a digital gain anyway
23:04
danieel
the 2k5 bmcc has a 256mbit flash, for the 5MP sensor (which is used even in crop mode at ~ 3.5MP)
23:05
Bertl_oO
for the FPN corrections or for general calibration data?
23:07
Spirit532
they'll probably be in the same place
23:07
Spirit532
but I just took off the side, nope, no flash on the bottom
23:07
Spirit532
I'd really rather not take it apart further until I'm certain it can't be fixed in post
01:31
danieel
I have played with the data... the result is that it is not possible to fix that in the post
01:31
danieel
reason is, that the data is already cooked from wrong components
01:32
danieel
the sensor offer separate low and high gain readouts, from which you subtract the calibration data, and then multiply one with the gain difference
01:33
danieel
so these merge artifacts are in the area wher the lg switches to hg
01:34
danieel
had played a lot with a similar sensor (CIS2521F) where i had access to both of those raw channels
02:02
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
02:02
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
03:08
Spirit532
danieel, ripping the camera apart... gently
03:08
Spirit532
about 50% of the way through
03:13
Spirit532
danieel, yup
03:13
Spirit532
fuck
03:14
Spirit532
it's a spansion flash that appears to have the teenage problem of 0201 caps growing around it
03:19
intrac
left the channel
03:32
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/KCWD0.jpg
03:32
Spirit532
here's the culprit.
03:32
Spirit532
well at least I think it is
03:33
Spirit532
also, yeah, I know, that thermal paste is disgustingly bad
03:36
Spirit532
64MB
03:36
Spirit532
and... SPI?
03:36
Spirit532
it might be hackable to be honest
03:37
Spirit532
if it doesn't work, I could take it out, read it myself via deadbug
03:37
Spirit532
then buy another one, flash it in
03:37
Spirit532
and solder it back on
03:43
Spirit532
.5mm pitch it looks like
03:43
Spirit532
The package and/or data
03:43
Spirit532
integrity may be compromised if the package body is exposed to temperatures above 150°C for prolonged periods of time.
03:43
Spirit532
and I may kill it further if I reflow, great
05:44
niteesh
joined the channel
06:34
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
07:26
intrac
joined the channel
07:40
niemand
joined the channel
07:40
niemand
left the channel
07:40
niemand
joined the channel
08:00
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
08:15
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
08:35
niteesh
left the channel
09:28
danieel
i have that 2K5 board from which the 32MB of flash could be taken off.. but I have no BGA socket/reader for this
10:56
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
10:57
danieel
one word of warning - if you preheat that sensor board from bottom (sensor side) then the cover glass of the sensor will delaminate :)
11:10
niteesh
joined the channel
11:30
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
11:45
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
11:45
Bertl
morning folks!
11:52
Spirit532
danieel, I don't plan on preheating it
11:52
Spirit532
is that going to be a bad thing?
11:56
Spirit532
also I just realized that you're Daniel Rozsnyo, and we know each other
12:01
Spirit532_
joined the channel
12:01
Spirit532
left the channel
12:01
Spirit532_
changed nick to: Spirit532
12:08
Kjetil
Does the board have buried vias or are there visible vias beneath the BGA?
12:21
Bertl
the chip shouldn't be too hard to remove or resolder
12:21
Spirit532
I won't be removing it
12:21
Spirit532
but I think I'm ready now
12:21
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/LkF0N.jpg
12:21
Spirit532
emissivity set for epoxy
12:21
Spirit532
I shouldn't overheat it
12:22
Kjetil
As danieel said it might delaminate the sensor you should probably protect it somehow
12:22
Bertl
well, cooling down the board is nice but doesn't help much
12:23
Spirit532
the sensor is under it and the glass is pretty far away
12:23
Spirit532
Bertl, it's a thermal camera
12:23
Spirit532
I'm watching the temperatures live
12:23
Bertl
you need to heat up the BGA balls and the pads
12:23
Spirit532
yep
12:24
Bertl
the best way to do that for both reseating as removing is to use a thin copper foil directly on the part
12:24
Spirit532
I'm not removing it
12:24
Spirit532
I'm heating it up until the solder just melts
12:24
Spirit532
and then poking it to reseat the balls
12:24
Bertl
attach with some flux and heat directly with the solder iron
12:24
Spirit532
I can't clean it
12:24
Spirit532
so I can't do ultrasonic
12:25
Spirit532
I mean the other way around
12:25
Spirit532
so no flux
12:25
Bertl
no need to clean good flux
12:25
Kjetil
-"need to" :)
12:25
Spirit532
you need to clean all flux
12:25
Spirit532
:P
12:26
Spirit532
and I don't have anything that good
12:26
Bertl
any flux which is labeled 'no clean' doesn't need to be removed
12:26
Spirit532
it's labelled "no cleaner" technically
12:26
Spirit532
it can be rinsed off
12:26
Spirit532
but you can't leave any flux on a board
12:26
Bertl
of course you can remove excessive amounts with a special q-tip
12:27
Bertl
well, whatever you say :)
12:28
Spirit532
so what should I set it to for unleaded solder in this case
12:28
Spirit532
around 280ish?
12:29
Bertl
heat gun or solder iron?
12:29
Spirit532
air
12:29
Bertl
you very likely need above 300 for that, better 320-350
12:29
Bertl
you also want low air flow because otherwise the small components around it will fly away
12:30
Spirit532
yup
12:31
Bertl
note: if it is a bad contact, you also want some BGA flux (that's the completely liquid one) there otherwise a possible broken solder ball will not reconnect
12:38
Spirit532
okay, I got it to float
12:38
Spirit532
tapped it
12:38
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/6UZr4.png
12:38
Spirit532
but damn
12:38
Spirit532
this thing soaks up heat like a magnet
12:38
Spirit532
only had a second or two to remove the heat
12:39
Spirit532
sensor glass did not delaminate
12:39
Spirit532
and the rubber seal didn't buble
12:39
Spirit532
bubble*
12:42
Spirit532
should I try float-assembling it on the desk and powering it on, or should I just assemble the whole thing as it is?
12:48
Spirit532
nope, I've decided to assemble the whole thing
12:48
Spirit532
not leaving it up to chance that a missing component makes it not boot
12:49
Spirit532
but first, to photograph the whole thing, for future reference and a stupid article
13:05
RexOrCine|away
changed nick to: RexOrCine
13:13
danieel
well, the multilayer boards are lot of copper, especially with the shielding planes
13:14
danieel
and BM is usually placing copper also on outside, to avoid EMC issues (both directions)
13:15
Spirit532
yeah this thing looks like at least 8 layers
13:15
Spirit532
maybe 16
13:16
Bertl
off for now .... bbl
13:16
Spirit532
I'll photograph everything after I take this break, then assemble and see how badly I screwed this up
13:16
Spirit532
:P
13:16
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
13:21
danieel
the fpga is a z7030 / z7045 ?
13:21
Spirit532
I don't see any writing
13:21
Spirit532
will take a look in a bit once I get to photographing the pcb
13:21
danieel
have you cleaned it?
13:22
Spirit532
I'm not very keen on taking the heatsink off
13:22
Spirit532
but I guess I will
13:22
danieel
not the heatsink.. just the paste
13:22
Spirit532
follow the logic
13:22
Spirit532
where does the paste reside?
13:22
Spirit532
heh
13:38
Spirit532
https://i.spirit.re/9fae3.jpg
13:38
Spirit532
here's a high res(but not full yet, will reshoot) shot of the sensor board with all the chips visible
13:39
Spirit532
the spansion chip has spots now that I look at it
13:39
Spirit532
but I'm pretty sure that's just from me tapping it with the not perfectly clean hot air nozzle
13:48
Spirit532
is anyone here registered on bmcuser for a few months?
13:49
Spirit532
there's someone wanting to buy a dead ursa mini 4.6k, I was going to try to talk to him about me buying his instead, but it seems like I'm still not approved...
14:28
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
14:43
Spirit532
yeah I'm not taking this heatsink off
14:43
Spirit532
it's ridiculously tight even without screws
14:55
se6astian
Spirit532: very interesting insights into this hardware
14:55
se6astian
do you wanna share it in the teardowns section of the apertus wiki? https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Teardowns
14:56
Spirit532
I will once I'm done with the photoshoot
14:56
Spirit532
absolutely
15:03
se6astian
great!
15:03
Spirit532
at this point I'd love to own an axiom beta
15:03
Spirit532
I just want something that will do 4K60 :(
15:04
Spirit532
buuut it doesn't do internal recording(yet?)
15:04
Spirit532
I think you'd have to sacrifice the HDMI connector to have enough transceivers for SATA, right?
15:10
se6astian
no internal recording on the beta yet correct
15:10
se6astian
and HDMI output is limited to 1080p60 currently
15:11
Spirit532
any major improvements over the last year-ish?
15:11
se6astian
SATA is not in development yet but a USB3 module is hardware complete
15:11
Spirit532
I guess it can be a very expensive machine vision camera :P
15:12
se6astian
or very expensive webcam :)
15:12
Spirit532
I have a cmv2k usb3 cam for that
15:12
se6astian
6G SDI plugin module hardware gen2 is also close to being hardware finished
15:13
Spirit532
that's 4k30
15:13
Spirit532
so at least something filmic
15:17
felix_
the hardware has dual 6g sdi outputs and single 6g sdi input
15:17
Spirit532
can't do 12G SDI over 2x6G though, can you?
15:18
felix_
https://github.com/felixheld/AXIOM-photonSDI-hw
15:19
felix_
dual 6g sdi can transport 4k@60fps; should be compatible with 12g sdi if you use one of those magic sdi muxing/demuxing boxes
15:20
Spirit532
it'd be nice to have a single 12G-SDI output and a 3G in
15:20
felix_
the gtps of the artix7 we're using there only supports up to 6g and for 12g we'd need to use a kintex7
15:20
Spirit532
ah
15:21
Spirit532
have an external mux IC?
15:21
Spirit532
or is that usually just done with an fpga
15:21
felix_
that external mux ic would cost more than going to the smallest kintex7 fpga with 12g gtx
15:22
Spirit532
the ultrazed-eg or ev are very nice
15:22
Spirit532
basically a direct upgrade to the microzed
15:22
Spirit532
but with the new mpsoc
15:24
felix_
that would probably require a major redesign of the camera though?
15:24
Spirit532
I don't think they're pin-compatible
15:24
Spirit532
but functionality is just a direct upgrade
15:25
Spirit532
it's a lot more expensive though
15:25
Spirit532
$534 in single quantities
15:25
Spirit532
$440 in 500
15:28
felix_
the GS12070 (12g sdi gearbox chip) costs 100 euros before tx in single quantities
15:28
Spirit532
but since there's two 6G gtps, it would be interesting to see dual SATA3 instead of dual 6G-SDI
15:28
Spirit532
that would allow for full speed interleaved recording
15:28
Spirit532
the same as it does on the ursas
15:28
Spirit532
(cfast is sata3)
15:29
felix_
when the 6g sdi module is finished and the gateware developed, i'm planning to make a sata board. that's mostly removing stuff from the board and add the sata connectors
15:30
Spirit532
either of those would instantly turn it into a proper cinema camera
15:30
Spirit532
:P
15:30
felix_
that's the plan ;)
15:32
felix_
for the sata gateware, litesata can probably be extended without too much hassle
15:35
felix_
iirc litesata is currently only for the kintex7 fpgas, so the phy layer needs to be extended; not sure if some higher-lever things need to extended as well
15:37
niteesh
left the channel
16:03
Spirit532
danieel, nope :(
16:03
Spirit532
reflowing the chip did nothing
16:03
Spirit532
and the hardware id is still "value"
16:03
Spirit532
this sucks.
17:27
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
17:48
danieel
nothing unexpected :)
17:55
Spirit532
so I guess all the bits did leak out of it
18:06
intrac
left the channel
18:14
illwieckz
left the channel
18:21
Bertl_oO
Spirit532: I'd suggest to make high-res scans as well
18:21
Spirit532
I took 20MP photos
18:22
Bertl_oO
not as usefull as 2kdpi scans
18:39
intrac
joined the channel
18:43
Spirit532
I don't have a scanner
18:50
illwieckz
joined the channel
19:00
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
19:14
Bertl_oO
you are missing a lot for repairs :)
19:24
Spirit532
money, mostly
20:30
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
21:17
niemand
left the channel
21:21
intrac
left the channel
21:21
intrac
joined the channel
21:46
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away