Current Server Time: 21:33 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/10/11

Timezone: UTC


00:02
danieel
so the efficiency change by having the extension hold by a second materia/air is 1% to 0.1% ?
00:03
__anton___
Bertl, on a slightly different note.. would agree that we need to find a way to move Zynq and CMV12000 further apart?
00:04
Bertl
they are on oposite sides and they will be separated by several PCBs
00:04
Bertl
I wouldn't worry too much, we just need to take care of the airflow
00:04
Bertl
i.e. it should first pass the sensor cooler and then the FPGA part before it gets exhausted
00:04
danieel
how hot the zynq gets?
00:04
Bertl
(if there is active cooling)
00:05
Bertl
really depends on what it is doing
00:05
Bertl
we didn't get hotter than 55/60° C on the Alpha without cooling
00:05
Bertl
but for example the parallella gets quite hot with the demo setup
00:05
danieel
you might want to try to insulate it somehow to see where it can raise :)
00:06
__anton___
danieel: I've got no clue how much power that Zynq can dissipate. 100Wt was mentioned once on this chat. Not sure if Zynq can really do this much.
00:06
danieel
we did some funny tests with our head vs the RED camera... ours get to 55deg, red was hot so we could not touch it... all what we did is to put it into a paper box :)
00:06
Bertl
you cannot touch 55deg either
00:07
Bertl
(assuming we are talking °C here)
00:07
danieel
it was the sensor, we got quite a big block of alu on it... so it was okay
00:07
danieel
yes
00:07
Bertl
so the sensor (KAC) got really hot?
00:07
danieel
but the red must gone much higher
00:07
danieel
once you prevent the heat to dissipate, yes
00:08
Bertl
did you do that?
00:08
danieel
see the paper box note above?
00:08
Bertl
yeah, that was enough?
00:08
danieel
was enough to make conditions not normal...
00:08
Bertl
interesting
00:08
danieel
probably natural airflow is enough, so we can be fine in arabia
00:09
__anton___
Bertl: btw even if there is a Peltier in Axiom Beta, the camera should still be able to function when it is off - suppose we're running out of our batteries
00:10
Bertl
yes, we don't have a peltier in the Alpha, so that should be fine
00:11
__anton___
Alpha is big :)
00:11
Bertl
we do not even have a heat spreader in the alpha
00:11
Bertl
it is all about air flow and convection
00:11
__anton___
well Alpha has got a fan, right?
00:11
__anton___
and a radiator on Zynq?
00:11
Bertl
you can't count that much on heat radiation under normal conditions
00:12
Bertl
and yes, there is a heat sink on the zynq
00:12
Gegsite
left the channel
00:12
__anton___
also, can it be that future PL for Zynq will make it hotter?
00:12
Bertl
there is none on the MicroZed, but we will have to find one
00:12
Bertl
PL?
00:13
__anton___
I mean what you program in VHDL
00:13
Bertl
ah, yes, of course, the fabric configuration is the main cause for heat
00:13
danieel
Bertl: can you do a stress vhdl code? to utilize most of the fabric?
00:14
Bertl
well, it is hard to tell what would produce most heat
00:14
Bertl
but one could play with the power esitmator and see what scores highest :)
00:14
danieel
wire in some lut maps 4/4 and feed with random data?
00:15
Bertl
random data is probably suboptimal, sync on/off is definitely better
00:15
danieel
probably the switching at cells + interconnect is the biggest source
00:15
Bertl
you want as many switching cycles as possible at the highest frequency
00:15
danieel
yes
00:16
Bertl
but a lot of heat is generated on I/O as well
00:16
danieel
on mgt that i can expect.. but on standard io?
00:16
Bertl
so terminating all LVDS lines and sending data out would increase temp as well
00:16
Bertl
do not underestimate LVDS switching
00:17
danieel
there is no thermal protection, right? just a temp measurement diode at high-end devices
00:17
Bertl
the zynq has a thermal shutdown
00:18
danieel
will it signal it first?
00:18
Bertl
yes
00:18
Bertl
the xadc can be used to monitor the die as well
00:18
__anton___
gagabit trancivers on 7015/7030? can they add heat?
00:19
Bertl
yes, of course
00:21
__anton___
well the question which I most want to ask you now is this: do you have any ambition to build a sealed camera?
00:21
__anton___
do you see the point in doing so?
00:21
danieel
sealed? like waterproof?
00:21
__anton___
let say water-proofable
00:22
danieel
with my "proprietary" concept: no
00:22
Bertl
sealed would only work with some kind of external cooling I guess
00:22
Bertl
large heat fins, liquid cooling for underwater, or something like that
00:23
Bertl
at least for higher frame rates and with current FPGAs/sensors that is
00:23
__anton___
my vision was this: a more or less sealed brick of aluminium, maybe even slighty bigger than it would have otherwise been, say with flat square back of 120mm * 120mm
00:23
__anton___
a lot of heat could probably just be dissipated by the case
00:23
__anton___
and if that is not enough a silent 120mm fan could be attached to the back externally
00:24
__anton___
won't fly?
00:24
danieel
"the dimensions are correct, just the fan is smaller" ;)
00:25
__anton___
if that doesn't fly than ribs on the back.. i certainly hoped that it would work without the fan under normal condition
00:25
danieel
Bertl: how hard would be to devise a sensor interface which can be shared/reused for free/nonfree sensors? (you wont be needing sockets anymore, and the replacement will go with the piece of rigid-flex pcb or b2b plug)
00:25
__anton___
if that is not something you find appealing or doable I will stop wasting your time
00:26
intracube
__anton___: have you got any sketches of the cooling layout?
00:27
__anton___
intracube: yeah, http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/ scroll to the bottom
00:28
__anton___
intracube: Plan C
00:29
Bertl
danieel: we are actually considering this right now
00:30
Bertl
i.e. to have an intermediate FPGA/CPLD whatever which provides a standartized interface to the ZYNQ
00:30
intracube
__anton___: thanks, will have a proper read later
00:31
__anton___
intracube: there is an alternative layout suggested by Berl. I haven't made sketches yet. Basically you use the back panel as a radiator for Zynq, all of the back panel, and the front panel is connected via Peltier to the sensor
00:31
Bertl
__anton___: a solid block wouldn't be good
00:31
danieel
that seems to be rather an overkill if you wish to stick to xilinx... but with an igloo or xo2 i could imagine it
00:31
intracube
__anton___: back panel of what? the case?
00:32
__anton___
intracube: yes
00:32
Bertl
danieel: we are not limited/bound to xilinx in any way
00:32
intracube
is there a list + dimensions for all the components of the Beta?
00:32
Bertl
not yet
00:33
__anton___
intracube: Zedboard is 2.25" * 4"
00:33
Bertl
MicroZed/PicoZed and yes
00:33
__anton___
intracube and 25.5mm high (because of Ethernet/USB connector)
00:34
Bertl
plus the PCBs and the connectors
00:34
__anton___
intracube: CMV12000 is 47mm * 34mm
00:35
Bertl
PCBs will be within the MicroZed dimensions
00:35
__anton___
this is the lens mount: https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/beta-hardware/blob/master/Enclosure/Version%20002/NikonLensMount01.pdf?raw=true
00:36
Bertl
for the F-mount, yes
00:36
__anton___
57mm external diameter
00:36
__anton___
48mm long
00:37
__anton___
I didn't have any other sizes when I was doing my sketches, but this is more or less enough to estimate possible layouts
00:37
intracube
__anton___: thanks
00:38
__anton___
maybe I'm crazy but I'd rather see the baby sealed with an optional external fan :)
00:38
intracube
will the final Beta be the same design/size as the photos shown during the funding campaign?
00:38
__anton___
there must be a % of userbase which would feel the same, I'm just not sure how large this % is
00:38
Bertl
intracube: probably not, but close
00:39
Bertl
we already changed some design aspects during the campaign (thanks to the feedback and input provided)
00:39
Bertl
we will update the renderings in the next weeks accordingly
00:40
__anton___
...and in a sealed layout sensor and Zynq need to be placed further apart - which can be achieved either by making sensor board larger or by introducing 2 connector boards between sensor pcb and zedboard
00:40
intracube
Bertl: there's some clear benefits to making a camera as small as possible
00:40
intracube
but it definitely makes cooling a challenge
00:42
__anton___
a closed-body design does not only help with dust and light rain - it will also keep sand out in those areas where there is sand
00:43
intracube
just IMO, but my preference would be a camera similar in size to the Alexa
00:43
intracube
which has a height of 241mm as a rough scale
00:44
__anton___
intracube: however Beta is going to have controls and monitor/viewfinder as separate modules
00:44
__anton___
do even have enough hardware for 241mm?
00:44
__anton___
well the future ssd raid will take space
00:45
__anton___
and the battery too
00:45
intracube
__anton___: yep, but a larger internal volume would give more options for passive heat cooling
00:45
intracube
(just talking about the camera head end)
00:45
Bertl
intracube: no problem with that, you can always pack it into different cases
00:46
Bertl
actually the case is just an example, it isn't even necessary in our original design
00:46
dmjnova
left the channel
00:46
__anton___
yeah... closer to my vision then... I was dreaming of a 120mm * 120mm back of the camera with screw holes... and then to those 144 square centimeters of flat aluminium you screw whatever is necessary to cook it down
00:47
__anton___
to cool it down I mean :-D
00:47
intracube
probably the most important dimensions are the height/width - the depth will be determined by the different modules bolted on the back
00:47
Bertl
there is nothing to be bolted on the back on the Beta
00:47
Bertl
(module wise)
00:48
__anton___
Yeah, just a fan!
00:48
__anton___
or maybe a radiator and a fan!
00:48
intracube
Bertl: ah ok, I didn't realise
00:48
Bertl
but the important part is, we hope to see different cases for the Beta
00:48
__anton___
or actually if it is aluminium you can have mounting holes
00:48
Bertl
and of course, we will encourage this and having different designs
00:49
__anton___
and if you don't need a radiator to those mouting holes you can attach stuff - remote control, monitor, battery
00:49
intracube
Bertl: yes, it'll be interesting to see peoples own case designs :)
00:49
Bertl
we will make sure that they can be easily compared (software and hardware monitoring) so that we get good results
00:51
Bertl
and we will also make sure that everybody who works on development will get a chance to receive an early Beta
00:51
__anton___
well, once the layout of the internal modules has been fixed there isn't that much freedom in how you can modify the case
00:51
intracube
so what are the key components? sensor mounted on it's own board, zedboard, ...?
00:52
Bertl
most likely, sensor on a single or double PCB module
00:52
Bertl
(with smart interface)
00:52
Bertl
then the actual Beta board
00:52
Bertl
then in case of the PicoZed an adapter PCB
00:53
Bertl
(which breaks out the gigabit tranceivers)
00:53
Bertl
then the MicroZed/PicoZed
00:53
Bertl
and the last board is the optional dual microSD/fan controller board
00:53
__anton___
Bertl, where is the power regulator going to sit?
00:54
__anton___
another potentially hot component
00:54
Bertl
power regulator(s) _plural_ will be allover the place
00:54
Bertl
the 6-40V switching DC/DC will be a separate PCB
00:54
__anton___
inside?
00:54
Bertl
inside or outside, we haven't decided yet
00:55
__anton___
you already have one.. does it get hot?
00:55
Bertl
the one we built and tested didn't really get hot, a little luke warm, but that's it
00:55
Bertl
but note, that this version had only half the power
00:56
Bertl
we are also investigating DC/DC modules for this part
01:14
__anton___
Bertl: an idea on how to allow users to have more freedom in building their own cases
01:14
__anton___
Microzed has got two FCI 61082-101400LF sockets
01:14
__anton___
If the main Beta PCB also had FCI 61082-101400LF
01:14
__anton___
and two connector boards were provided with 61083-103400LF on each
01:14
__anton___
then the users could move around Beta PCB and Microzed almost however they want
01:14
__anton___
The only thing they would need for a new camera layout would be new connector boards
01:15
__anton___
the downside here obviously is the the default configuration becomes less compact and more expensive
01:15
Bertl
not sure how you want to connect them?
01:15
__anton___
10mins, let me draw
01:15
Bertl
btw, why move the beta board and the MicroZed apart?
01:16
Bertl
I would more expect somebody to move the beta board and the sensor board apart
01:16
__anton___
well if they are clipped together there is no so much variation you can have in camera case
01:16
__anton___
move sensor board apart from Beta board?
01:16
Bertl
yes
01:16
__anton___
maybe that's an alternative
01:16
Bertl
that would IMHO make a lot more sense
01:17
__anton___
is sensor board in Beta about same as in Alpha?
01:17
Bertl
assume the height of the MicroZed (2.25) as square
01:18
Bertl
we might make it 2.15" in square tough to match the parallella (not decided yet)
01:19
Bertl
*though
01:19
__anton___
what's on that board? just some routing of signals to/from?
01:19
__anton___
on main Beta board
01:19
__anton___
routing power etc?
01:19
Bertl
the sensor and the sensor power supply, and we are considering a low power FPGA/CPLD to create a standartized interface
01:20
Bertl
which would make the sensor board even more reuseable
01:20
__anton___
yes that's on sensor board
01:20
__anton___
and what's on Beta board then
01:20
__anton___
?
01:20
Bertl
everything else, i.e. the PIC, the IMU, the interfaces for the shields
01:21
Bertl
the JTAG interface
01:21
Bertl
general power management (not the sensor voltages though)
01:22
intracube
left the channel
01:23
__anton___
I see. Well I guess that whereever you break this triplet: SENSOR - BETABOARD - MICROZED it would allow new body designs
01:24
__anton___
if the 3 are firmly attached to each other than there is only so much variation in body that can happen
01:24
Bertl
yes, but I see no point in breaking Beta board and microzed apart
01:24
__anton___
agreed. I did not thing the sensor board could be broken apart
01:24
Bertl
let's assume, you can break them apart (Beta/MicroZed)
01:25
Bertl
you still need a PCB to mate to the MicroZed
01:25
__anton___
I can still draw what I had in mind, just in case
01:25
Bertl
which will be almost the size of the Beta board
01:25
__anton___
Let me draw :) that's not what I meant
01:25
Bertl
so, instead of gaining more flexibility there, you only add one/two boards
01:26
Bertl
okay, draw me something :)
01:47
intracube
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liwanma
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02:06
__anton___
Bertl: after I started drawing I realised that what I had in mind was not possible and what was possible was a lot less useful
02:07
__anton___
Still this is smth similar to what I meant initially http://s015.radikal.ru/i332/1410/82/7970c88e241c.png
02:07
__anton___
here Beta board and Microzed can be moved further apart
02:07
__anton___
however I did not realise that sensor is actually not on Beta board
02:07
__anton___
with that there is more isolation between it and Zynq
02:07
__anton___
so you got things a lot more under control that it seemed
02:08
Bertl
which is not that unexpected, because we originally planned the sensor on the Beta board at least for the KAC
02:08
__anton___
how could moving sensor board away from Beta be facilitated?
02:08
__anton___
what kind of a connection could they have?
02:08
Bertl
but you agree that separating the Beta Board from the MicroZed doesn't help much, yes?
02:09
__anton___
no it doesn't
02:09
__anton___
microheaders don't run vertically they run horizontally
02:09
Bertl
well, that's the interesting part, if we manage to make a proper standartized sensor interface
02:09
__anton___
then you would have a cable?
02:09
Bertl
we can connect the sensor board with the beta board in different ways
02:10
Bertl
and we can adjust the bandwidth to whatever is doable
02:10
Bertl
i.e. we can optimize the communication between sensor board and beta board to the connection
02:11
__anton___
hmmm... don't you always want max bandwidth?
02:11
__anton___
whatever sensor can do should be available?
02:11
Bertl
so, basically it will be a number of IO pairs which go from sensor board to beta board
02:12
Bertl
yes, but it doesn't always need to be available
02:13
Bertl
for example, if you are recording 25FPS in full HD
02:13
Bertl
no need to trasnfer 4k at 300FPS
02:13
Bertl
(bandwidth wise)
02:13
__anton___
does it mean that use these IO's on Zynq for smth else?
02:14
__anton___
or does it mean you can run a thinner cable from sensor board to beta board?
02:14
__anton___
where's the win?
02:14
Bertl
the win is in power consumption, heat dissipation, etc
02:14
Bertl
also you can use cables of lower quality if you use some coding tricks
02:14
Bertl
think ADSL
02:16
Bertl
and of course, the big advantage is that you can change the sensor easily
02:18
__anton___
that would make sensor migration from Beta to Gamma a lot less painful
02:19
__anton___
otherwise if we do not take Gamma into account you could probably as well mount the sensor on Beta board and swap Beta board together with sensor since the cost of everything else on Beta board would be a lot less than of the sensor
02:21
__anton___
I am a programmer. Having an abstract standardized interface is nice and makes it easier to work with staff. But the law is that the abstractions leak and the abstract interface also gets in the way often
02:22
Bertl
no worries, we won't make it _that_ abstract
02:22
Bertl
and after all, you can still replace everything
02:25
__anton___
wouldn't be without interest to see what % of people would prefer a compact camera over a sealed one and vice versa
02:26
__anton___
and indeed being able to move sensor away makes it easier to create an alternative sealed case (though we get a new source of heat as well - the new fpga)
02:27
Bertl
I wouldn't worry about a low power FPGA/CPLD, you probably produce 10 times the heat with a peltier
02:28
Bertl
but we'll see, we still have to do some tests before we go for the smart sensor variant
02:36
__anton___
well we're prepared to spend 20wt on the Peltier to remove 2wt generated by the sensor; now in the direct vicinity of the sensor there comes something which generates another 2wt... maybe I'm misguided as usual though :)
02:37
__anton___
off to bed
02:37
Bertl
I'm almost off to bed as well have a good one
02:52
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
02:52
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
03:09
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10:00
Bertl_zZ
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10:00
Bertl
morning folks!
10:26
g3gg0
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se6astian|away
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10:37
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
10:37
Bertl
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11:17
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se6astian
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13:11
aombk
too much negativity in eoshd forum
13:12
philippej__
aombk, where ?
13:16
aombk
http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/7245-last-chance-to-order-your-early-4k-raw-axiom-beta-a-linux-based-open-source-camera/
13:22
philippej__
site is slow as hell to load
13:22
aombk
its because of the negativity :P
13:26
philippej__
still loading :-)
13:31
Q_
I'm wondering why people say "only 10 stops"?
13:32
Q_
Isn't that like expected when you have a 12 bit ADC?
13:56
seku
yeah, i read about that negativity too. let them be. they are mostly clueless.
13:56
intracube
seems like a lot of comments in that thread haven't taken on board that it's the Axiom -Beta-
13:57
seku
like they havent understood that axiom beta really means beta, and that its a stepstone
14:20
aombk
have you heard about the robbery in blackmagic distribution center?
14:21
aombk
also do you remeber the robberies red has reported years back. where they stole some prototypes etc?
14:21
philippej__
could anyone try to reach this ip : http://81.240.158.194:5000/
14:22
danieel
works
14:22
aombk
yes works
14:22
philippej__
you get ubuntu blabla index page?
14:22
aombk
no
14:22
aombk
Index of /
14:22
philippej__
ok thanks :-)
14:23
aombk
it has an html dir in it that has the apache server page
14:24
aombk
are you insured and secured about robbery attempts there at apertus? :P
14:30
philippej__
could you try again on this one : http://81.240.158.194:5000/
14:34
philippej__
you should see the phabricator login screen
14:45
aombk
yes
14:45
philippej__
feel free to test it, while my computer is up :-)
14:46
philippej__
(and report :-) )
14:47
aombk
you are going to host it on your computer?
14:47
philippej__
no, it's just to not mess with the main server while we have not decided yet which tool to use
14:47
aombk
i registered and now i wait
14:47
aombk
patiently
14:48
philippej__
(my connection is crappy)
14:48
aombk
for the administrator
14:48
aombk
to approve the account
14:48
philippej__
hahaha
14:49
philippej__
sorry
14:49
philippej__
done
14:50
philippej__
http://81.240.158.194:5000/M1 for example a mockup anotation tool
14:54
philippej__
aombk, feel free to do anything on this test instance, it's just a sandbox
15:04
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intracube
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intracube
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16:04
troy_s
aombk: Most of the gripes I saw looked legitimate.
16:04
troy_s
Support is a real one.
16:04
troy_s
And one that Libre / OSS has never solved with the exception being Red Hat.
16:05
troy_s
So I am unsure calling it negativity is entirely fair.
16:10
wescotte_
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16:12
intracube
troy_s: what sort of support do you mean?
16:12
intracube
support for training/usage of camera, software/hardware bugfixes?
16:14
intracube
if the latter, for a similar price-point, are Sony or other big names better?
16:14
troy_s
intracube: Support. In field bug holding up a production. Support on the issues. Etc.
16:14
intracube
if I notice a bug in the field with my $5k Sony camera. Can I speak directly to a sony engineer to resolve the problem quickly?
16:14
troy_s
intracube: Speaking from experience, I have seen Sony make a firmaware change to the F65 from a field request in less than a week.
16:14
intracube
I doubt it somehow
16:14
troy_s
;)
16:15
intracube
of course I'd expect more support if I bought a $100,000 Arri
16:15
intracube
the difference between consumer and true professional, right?
16:16
danieel
sony has a premium service for support... (but it might be just longer/quicker warranty repair)
16:16
intracube
heck, for Panavision at least, don't they sometimes provide techs on-site to fix camera issues?
16:17
danieel
arri being more into rental would care much more thought, especially the rental only equipment comes with a support team :))
16:17
intracube
remembers Michael Bay saying they broke their Panas on one film
16:22
intracube
troy_s: but for what camera?
16:22
intracube
(for FW fix)
16:23
troy_s
intracube: F65.
16:24
troy_s
intracube: Point is, there is a massive structure there.
16:24
troy_s
And that is something that has always hurt OSS / Libre and always will until it is tackled (ala Red Hat)
16:25
troy_s
There is no accountability ultimately. This can also be positive, but is largely problematic.
16:27
intracube
troy_s: I agree 100% it'd be an issue for a production doing TV/film
16:28
intracube
but such a production wouldn't buy a Beta. by the time the Gamma appears (realistically 3-5 years away?) you might have commercial companies providing support
16:28
intracube
maybe that last part is wishful thinking, idk
16:29
intracube
troy_s: and it's not just Red Hat. What about SuSE/Novell?
16:29
danieel
intracube: compare rather to some hardware providing firms, than sw/service suppliers
16:29
troy_s
intracube: Look at the market caps. Novell basically went under.
16:30
intracube
troy_s: but was that down to their linux/support division?
16:30
troy_s
intracube: Your argument is problematic that such a production wouldn't buy because the reasons apply to both sizes
16:31
troy_s
intracube: Example is an offline workflow. Would a smaller project use it? The reasons are that the issues apply to a smaller project, so yes they could / should given context.
16:32
troy_s
intracube: Same for a camera potentially; reliability, accountability, historical consistency.
16:33
troy_s
intracube: While it is seductive to believe in OSS / Libre, you have to counter it with the rather dismal penetration in industrial imaging and other contexts.
16:35
g3gg0
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16:38
intracube_
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16:38
intracube_
troy_s: and my "I doubt it somehow" referred to Sony providing good support for prosumer/consumer cameras. not your comment about an F65
16:39
troy_s
intracube: Well they are a company and they have to hit a baseline metric of satisfaction
16:40
intracube
left the channel
16:40
troy_s
intracube: and of course they will listen to last years academy award winner more than Josey Average.
16:41
troy_s
But that too is market effects; halo effect from having last year's AA using their camera
16:42
intracube_
'money talks' is at the root of all this
16:42
intracube_
F65 is, what, $65,000? or >12 Axiom Gammas
16:43
troy_s
intracube_: Yes. For better or worse, the ideology of the model drives it.
16:43
intracube_
right
16:44
troy_s
intracube_: But even in the Axiom range
16:44
g3gg0
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16:44
troy_s
intracube_: The client list isn't exactly obsessed with quality... There is a fuzzy balance line with quality versus comvenience
16:45
troy_s
intracube_: Hence why so many commercials shoot prores and do a full online turnkey crap pipe
16:45
troy_s
(Most larger budgets do not, but _many_ average ones do)
16:46
troy_s
(And that can be on an Alexa.)
16:46
intracube_
of course. would be nuts to shoot raw, do a really high quality post
16:47
troy_s
intracube_: Well this is the delicate strangeness of design; always contextual.
16:47
intracube_
all for a commercial with a 2 month shelf life and being played on 'HD' channels that are 8Mbit/sec h.264
16:47
comradekingu
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16:47
troy_s
intracube_: Hence if Axiom focuses on cinema, then many design decisions take on greater weight. Just as it would have to focused on news, or commercials, etc.
16:48
intracube_
I didn't know they were focussing on cinema particularly
16:48
intracube_
I mean, I know it's in the name and all
16:48
troy_s
intracube_: One of the other flaws in L / OSS is, as you have seen, the audience of âeveryoneâ or âallâ (which is an audience of none when it comes to design)
16:48
intracube_
that's why I've been here on IRC suggesting on-board lossy compression at some point in the future
16:49
troy_s
You can see it in the onboard audio discussion.;)
16:49
intracube_
troy_s: ^ I missed that
16:49
troy_s
But you only have so much raw material of time etc.
16:49
troy_s
And every design decision pulls away from another design element
16:49
troy_s
Or pulls toward one.
16:50
troy_s
Design is a 3D Cartesian coordinate system, and context transforms the clustering of needs.
16:50
intracube_
I'd expect the Axiom Gamma's main user base to be students, independent film/docu makers, 'one man bands', etc
16:51
troy_s
intracube_: Practical versus desired audiences
16:51
intracube_
it'd take quite some years before it's used in the industry as much as Red is now
16:51
intracube_
troy_s: clarify
16:51
troy_s
Some would insist that you research your current audience and optimize to them
16:51
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
16:51
Bertl
back now ...
16:51
troy_s
That is a feedback loop that can fine hone a design
16:51
intracube_
hey Bertl
16:52
Bertl
how's going?
16:52
troy_s
The flip side is to aim toward an audience and try to gain them
16:52
troy_s
Both can be viable approaches
16:53
troy_s
Greets Bertl
16:53
intracube_
troy_s: but the latter requires a lot more capital I suspect :)
16:53
troy_s
Not really.
16:53
intracube_
Red have huge finances relatively
16:54
troy_s
Case in point: R3D isn't winning that battle.
16:54
troy_s
;)
16:54
troy_s
Lack of research can cripple a project. See GIMP's new architecture for example.
16:54
intracube_
doesn't know about R3D history
16:55
troy_s
But AXIOM could forseeably keep their goal of high grade cinema imaging _and_ make small steps
16:55
troy_s
The only issue would be if there were a muddling of design visions; when the audience shifts from AudienceA to all.
16:55
intracube_
but (IMO) the camera also has to be accessible to much of the user base
16:56
troy_s
That is bullshit language.
16:56
troy_s
Accessible has a baked ideology
16:56
troy_s
Always.
16:56
intracube_
RAW only, no onboard sound, complex post workflow etc
16:56
troy_s
Complex is too
16:56
troy_s
To anyone doing any post work
16:56
troy_s
It isn't complex at all
16:56
troy_s
It is defacto standard
16:57
troy_s
No onboard sound is also defacto standard. Most can provide channels (as was the plan IIRC) but it is only a backup in their primary designed domains
16:58
troy_s
And my point on design precisely is highlighted by your statements
16:58
philippej__
Hello Bertl, how goes ?
16:58
troy_s
To _not_ follow certain contexts makes a device inaccessible to another audiencr
16:58
troy_s
There is no âgood designâ
16:59
troy_s
It is crap language and crap ideology. Good luck chasing that dragon.
16:59
intracube_
heh
17:00
troy_s
intracube_: A good arty farty designer friend once said something like
17:01
troy_s
âBuild me a vehicle that a formula racer can control well, that holds six sheets of plywood, has two child seats, goes from zero to sixty in 3.5 seconds, and rides on two wheels.â
17:02
troy_s
The problem with design isn't that there are constraints given contexts, it is that people actually believe that some sort of Utopian ideal exists.
17:03
troy_s
Whereas his example nicely illustrates how design contexts pull against / toward each other.
17:03
intracube_
yep, I don't disagree
17:03
intracube_
"<troy_s> The only issue would be if there were a muddling of design visions"
17:03
intracube_
^ probably the biggest threat to any project
17:04
troy_s
I think to rephrase the audio example it is probably a complex question of not what is gained (audio) but what is the trade? (Time, functionality, forms, etc. Holistic)
17:04
troy_s
And that is a much easier choice than some of course.
17:04
intracube_
anyway, as long as the base design can be expanded in different directions to suit different users
17:04
intracube_
and currently it looks like it will
17:05
troy_s
Where the gaps are much larger.
17:05
troy_s
But even that should be called into question
17:05
intracube_
people that want to record prores + sound can buy an Atomos
17:05
troy_s
Other companies have tried (and failed miserably) at the interchangeable sensor for example
17:05
troy_s
And the act of making a sensor interchangeable is a design decision that has an impact, maybe unforseen.
17:06
intracube_
^ agree totally
17:06
troy_s
There was a tremendous article by one of the authors of World Forge that I cannot find
17:06
troy_s
But it discussed how they built an architecture to accommodate every possible conceivable world
17:07
troy_s
And he was blunt in his assessment was that the architecture became never-ending; they were building architecture to support architecture
17:07
troy_s
And it failed miserably
17:07
philippej__
World Forge, I'd love to know what happened to the project, have spent countless hours trying to help for their media repository. Feature creep !
17:07
troy_s
Of course, anyone could have avoided that by reading Borges ;)
17:08
intracube_
troy_s: good chat
17:08
intracube_
slight change in topic
17:08
troy_s
Where the map maker's map ended up larger than the actual territory
17:08
troy_s
Same idea though
17:08
troy_s
It is design at the lowest level
17:08
intracube_
how limited are Atomos and equivalent recorders?
17:08
troy_s
In what regard (limited is a privileged term)
17:08
intracube_
can you send them 4fps over HDMI and have it record successfully?
17:09
intracube_
or is it fairly locked into standard HD broadcast formats
17:09
troy_s
Bertl can probably give you an authoritative response
17:09
intracube_
1920x1080 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97, 30
17:09
troy_s
IIRC the earlier capture experiments found that the recorders were deadly fussy
17:10
troy_s
philippej_: Try to find that article. It wasn't feature creep.
17:10
troy_s
philippej_: It was a broken design ideology that plagues many projects.
17:10
intracube_
it'd be nice if you could dump, say, 4096x3072 @ even limited to a few FPS over HDMI
17:10
Bertl
you can do a lot of things via HDMI
17:11
intracube_
Bertl: is it the case that DVI/HDMI are similar
17:11
Bertl
most commercially available recorders are limited to specific resolutions
17:11
Bertl
yes, DVI/HDMI are the same for all practical purposes
17:11
intracube_
but HDMI recorders (and other TV hardware) generally has much more limited scope?
17:11
Bertl
HDMI adds audio and similar
17:12
Bertl
we saw that with the atomos, which only can do like 6 different modes
17:12
intracube_
yep :/
17:12
intracube_
that's my concern
17:12
Bertl
while any modern TFT screen can do hundreds
17:15
danieel
the "6" resolutions are standard. read the CEA table...
17:15
Bertl
and it seems some of them are sharing a common base implementation
17:15
danieel
limiting the combinations helps to define performance bands, same as with the gaming consoles vs. PC world of gaming
17:16
Bertl
for example, the atomos HDMI->DVI module gave the same edid information as the black magic converter :)
17:16
troy_s
danieel: Design decision :)
17:16
danieel
helps to optimize things though
17:17
intracube_
danieel: yep. and to limit possible HW bugs, etc
17:17
danieel
i think it is where reality meets the idea :) one has to agree on standards
17:17
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17:17
intracube_
although there's a fair change the actual encoder hardware in these devices support a significantly wider range of options
17:18
danieel
intracube_: yes, validation is much easier
17:20
philippej__
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philippej_
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philippej_
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17:21
intracube_
Bertl: has there been any communication between Atomos and Axiom?
17:22
intracube_
maybe they'd consider releasing modified firmware for axiom users
17:22
intracube_
(even if they don't release the src code)
17:22
intracube_
can dream :)
17:24
intracube_
changed nick to: intracube
17:24
Bertl
no communication yet, but feel free to contact them
17:24
Bertl
it would probably be enough if they gave a complete specification of what their hardware supports
17:25
Bertl
but I think, even that is not an option, simply because they do not know themselves
17:25
danieel
for reference: the DTV resolutions are listed in CEA-861-D (2006, before 4k/uhd)
17:26
intracube
danieel: thanks
17:26
Bertl
aombk: thanks for the nice eoshd explanation
17:34
aombk
bertl glad you liked it
17:38
se6astian|away
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17:39
Gegsite
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17:39
se6astian
good evening
17:39
Bertl
wb se6astian!
17:47
se6astian
thanks :)
18:05
aombk
maybe its easier to have a setting that works with atomos standards and formats than trying to persuade atomos to release a custom firmware
18:06
Bertl
definitively
18:06
intracube
aombk: that's rather limiting
18:07
intracube
like if you're doing timelapse and only need to record 1 fps
18:08
aombk
well in this example maybe you could use the onboard flashcard
18:08
aombk
but yes its limiting
18:09
aombk
do you suggest there should be communication after the beta is released or while it is being designed?
18:09
intracube
with Atomos?
18:10
aombk
yes
18:10
intracube
probably best to wait until we know what the Beta will output on its HDMIs first
18:11
intracube
then we're not going to atomos with a vague wish-list
18:11
aombk
did you guys notice?
18:11
aombk
my campaign failed miserably
18:11
intracube
heh
18:12
intracube
but did you seriously expect a different outcome?
18:13
intracube
'contribute 20k to my campaign so I can have dinner with the Axiom team' :)
18:14
troy_s
aombk: Let the work do the speaking. ;)
18:14
troy_s
LOL hilarious.
18:46
skoezzie
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18:46
Bertl
welcome skoezzie!
18:47
skoezzie
Thx Bertl :)
18:50
skoezzie
I started reading the cmv12000 data sheet, looks great
18:51
Bertl
excellent!
18:54
skoezzie
At first sight it looks very similar to the onsemi cama sensor shipped with the xilinx video dev kit from avnet
18:54
Bertl
yeahm the onsemi looked familiar to me as well
18:55
skoezzie
Do you know if there's a url with axiom beta hardware design progress or something?
18:56
skoezzie
I just found out teh microzed only has 48 lvds channels so I was wondering how many of the 64 sensor channels would get used and it which mode...
18:57
skoezzie
Don't mind the type-o's, I suck at typing on an iPad :)
18:59
troy_s
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19:07
Gegsite
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19:11
Bertl
that's why we plan to use smart sensor boards for up to 64 LVDS channels
19:11
Bertl
but if that doesn't work out, we use the next lower configuration which is 32 LVDS channels
19:16
skoezzie
I'm guessing that two-side readout mode is best in the case of 32 channels otherwise you'd lose a lot of features according to the specs
19:17
skoezzie
I have no idea what a smart sensor board is, but it sounds great :)
19:19
skoezzie
Is it some sort of daughter card with a regular fpga just for interfacing with the sensor?
19:21
comradekingu
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19:22
Bertl
yes, we had the dula side, 16 LVDS readout on the Alpga
19:22
Bertl
*Alpha
19:22
Bertl
and yes, we plan to add a low power FPGA to the sensor board
19:23
philippej
Bertl, will this fpga allow to have less than perfect connections between sensor board and processing? (I mean lenght of wires, impedance, etc...)
19:23
Bertl
yes, that's the idea
19:24
philippej
cool
19:25
philippej
might have impact on cooling I guess. Didn't read the whole backlog so sorry if it has been discussed already
19:30
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
19:31
skoezzie
Superb! Can't wait to get my hands on one, it would be a nice upgrade from my 2k sensor . Great work guys!
19:32
skoezzie
I've got to go now. I'll be back in a couple of days, have a nice weekend :)
19:32
philippej
you too !
19:33
skoezzie
Thx. Cu
19:33
skoezzie
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philippej
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philippej_
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jucar
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jucar
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19:56
seku
evenimgs
19:57
Bertl
evening!
19:58
seku
hi Bertl :)
20:00
troy_s
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20:00
rexbron
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20:02
comradekingu
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20:03
Bertl
wb rexbron!
20:07
comradekingu
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wescotte_
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20:17
aombk
is anybody good this wordpress or css html?
20:18
aombk
*with
20:35
intracube
has there been much discussion about PL mount?
20:35
intracube
Bertl: ^
20:36
Bertl
not really
20:38
intracube
it'd be a natural choice for a digital cine camera
20:38
intracube
I guess thinking is that the camera is intended for amateurs who are more likely to have (D)SLR lenses around
20:43
intracube
?
20:43
Bertl
no idea
20:44
Bertl
I guess the lens-mount question is more a question of what can be done and what will be done by the community
20:45
Bertl
I don't think that the mechanical part is very complicated for most mounts, the electrical part (for active lens systems) is more complicated
20:49
danieel
being an electrical engineer, i experience the oppsite of that :)
20:58
Q_
Knowning not much about mechanics, but about electronics and software, I think the electronic part should be easy and it's just a matter of finding the protocol to talk to the lens, which also shouldn't be that hard.
21:00
Bertl
looking forward to the solution :)
21:00
intracube
can anyone confirm that; initially, the Beta won't have any onboard RAW recording (other than MicroSD for still images)?
21:00
Bertl
correct
21:00
intracube
Bertl: yup, thanks. just wanted to be 100% sure :)
21:01
Bertl
you can probably buffer a bunch of frames in memory though
21:01
intracube
I don't want to go spreading wrong info, etc
21:01
Bertl
there is up to 1GB (more realistically 800MB) available for this purpose
21:01
Q_
Bertl: Everything is easy, until you actually start doing it? :)
21:02
Bertl
most things are easy, but some of them are quite time consuming
21:03
Q_
Yes, it's not because it's easy that it doesn't take time.
21:12
seku
converting 100gigs of MLRAW to CDNG right now ... holidays were fun
21:12
seku
and that was just one day. 20 minutes of filming
21:13
seku
thatll be more with the axiom later :D
21:13
seku
gentlemen, get your multi-terabyte ssds ready
21:18
seku
funny thing tho... i can edit it live. 25fps/sec plays fine. for 1080p that is.
21:19
Bertl
isn't the purpose of MLVFS that you do not need to convert it?
21:20
seku
the purpose of MLVFS yes, but i straightly converted them to CinemaDNG now.
21:21
seku
i havent tried MLVFS yet, but ill surely try it. i think it wont be realtime on windows tho, as it will work through a webDAV server
21:22
seku
ive now used chmee's raw2cndg converter (gives me cinema DNG with audiofiles with added timecode, so Resolve can sync up the audio automatically. quite handy)
21:27
wescotte_
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21:30
seku
thats what i like tho... different workflows available already with MLV :)
21:40
seku
oopsie . davinci resolve likes RAM. 4gigs after startup.
21:40
seku
good that i bought soem more :D
22:06
danieel
i would expect that it will consume whatever you give access to :)
22:06
danieel
at least speedgrade has a cache, where it preloads the sequence while you are in pause mode
22:15
se6astian|away
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22:23
taschenguger
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22:23
aombk
wtf? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryangrepper/coolest-cooler-21st-century-cooler-thats-actually
22:24
se6astian
haha
22:24
se6astian
damn thats what we should have created
22:24
se6astian
an iphone toaster
22:27
se6astian
time for bed
22:27
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
22:36
regmac
I saw that cooler when it launched. I can't believe the response! If he can ship them they should be everythwere at Spring Break, and get a bunch more coverage.
22:44
aombk
wtf2 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-s