#apertus IRC Channel Logs

Well kudos I know how hard it is to organize a team over the internet. Its not easy, and that wasnt even an actual product just a service.

Well, I do have something that might help if you can get it set up.

"web dev" is somebody developing web based applications?

as in someone who knows the ins and outs of server management, ruby, php all that?

Kandan is the good one I thought, reminded me sort of Google Wave (which i loved) but desktop notifications, live team cheat and drag and drop file sharing which is convenient for larger documents.

*chat not cheat lol

from the first glance, discourse looks interesting

kadanapp doesn't convice me judging from the page

the 'rooms' part we have with IRC as well, file sharing is typically done via git, ftp or paste servers

yeah, I used google drive back in the day. Although Git is a bit more precise, ( dont get how it works somewhat but whatever I dont use it that often either )

(might want to send your email to team at apertus dot org

hah ok

stay tuned for the phabricator install :-)

now whats that :)

http://phabricator.org/

Hey if it looks cool and does something cool well, then its a success

it does look nice.

it's in use here for example : https://developer.blender.org/

how do I do it?

hahaha ( /msg NickServ

Gives a rundown

it says it's already in use

theres a reclaim command in theres somewhere i think

oh well

Yeah, phabricator looks interesting

Their site is super funny! " ...a dragon who guards your hosted repositories."

Crap in a hat I locked myself out D:

Bah of the days annoyances.

0 for 3 so far, great... So for the beta because of the modularity of the front mount and sensor, you could really attach any lens to it?

Although it might be too close for the flange distance, built in NR filters would be nice indeed.

not flange mount distance but whatever

yeah, I guess I'm off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!

night

Already checked the fridge now im just out of options.

I dont know if a mirrorless camera has a shutter life, no wait it has to… the A7s has to have one its a dslr.

Although i’d sit on that till gamma from a marketing perspective. Do a dual launch news type thing, with beta updates for photo software controls. Appeases both gamma investors and beta investors somewhat.

ill add it to the list of things to email

Blah

There

and happy friday! =)

moarnings

moinmoin

go an put some coffeine into your system. :)

doing so right now

hi seb

http://38.media.tumblr.com/30786e8c297a40dbb7267607c709096b/tumblr_nd4koj6t3z1swr8wlo1_1280.png =)

sorries, not native

i guess my english isn't better than yours but i can give it a look if you want me to

not many UK backers then :)

https://apertus.org/axiom-beta-after-campaign-end-article-2014

its published already

if you find an error I can fix it

wescotte: yes

hi se6astian, what's on the roadmap? any meetings planned for developers?

yes, regarding mechanics, I sent you the images of the 3d printed parts you know...

from anton, I've already bookmarked it...

philippej: Where was the cooling doc, if yo don't mind.

we'll soon have a propoer system to collect all this (we have the wiki by the way : wiki.apertus.org , but it's not used enough, people just like the convenience of irc in those rushed days :-))

yes :-)

in general, the wiki needs a lot of love

it's from __anton___ but i can set a link on the wiki...

irc.apertus.org is your friend :-)

http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/ ?

I put the link of __anton___'s document to the wiki https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Heat_management

regmac: the wiki could definitely need some restructuring, collecting of stuff together

I'm Manfred yes...

concerns related to plan B1: "if we put a little more of thermal compound we may end placing to the lens slightly closer to the lens than we wanted to" <--- lens slightly closer to the lens is a typo of some sort..

morning folks!

morning bertl, are there any alternatives to the andon sockets to get more space between sensor and board?

one option we already investigated but with little luck so far, which is missing in __antons__? cooling review is to put a heat plate (copper/aluminum) under the sensor, right around the pins

the "socket" consists only of socket pins, no fiberglass or similar holding them in place

the plate should be screwed against the lens mount, fixing the sensor between itself and the lens-mount

afk for a moment...

I have no board/sensor ATM, one is at MQ the other with sebastian

Hi guys I can move my article to wiki if you dont mind such a large mind dump. I may put each option on its own page if that sounds ok

please check the option I explained above and if possible add that as well (maybe with a nice/fancy graphic)

ah, okay, but that did't sound like what I had in mind

so maybe we need to refine that or break it down somehow

the idea is to have a solid plate, with drill holes where the socket pins are

In B1 that metal plate is part of camera front panel so heat is dissipated by that, and no chance for a peltier

the plate can extend over the PCB (top/bottom) or go to the side after having a small knee

it can also connect to the lens mount if desired

Where would the pins face? Inside of the cam?

I had two concepts for the peltier, one which uses a single peltier on top of the camera

and the second one is with two smaller peltiers, attached on the sides, which connect to the front side of the case

should I make a drawing to illustrate?

bbl

Wanted to ask where the fins face not pins

What would the thermal isolation from the pcb look like?

regarding fins, they would face away from the camera

These peel aways do they actually come with isolation which would separate them from the metal plate with drilled holes?

not the ones we found so far, but I'm not too worried about this problem

or orient the plate very precisely on both sides, with holes in the sensor and the PCB

but I think for the first approach a cutout around the pin-group(s) would be more than sufficient

yes, that's inch

Not that hard to find 3 row 1.27 pitch sockets, but they are for pins 0.4mm in diameter while cmv12000 seems to have 0.30 mm

they won't align well enough to actually get the sensor in during reflow

so we definitely need something like those peel-away sockets

http://www.advanced.com/products/peel-a-way-removable-carriers

wb intracube!

I thin a few reqyests might already help, so feel free to send an email with a description of the sensor(s)

Cool will do, I am in UK so I will try one of those. What size of an order should I speak about?

...and firt there need to be samples (ideally)

__anton: precisely

btw congrats to the campaign :)

what about removing the sensor? isn't it a bit dangerous to break a pin from the board when using SMD/SMT sockets. as it's for development it should not be a single use solution. danieel: i'm with you!

smd socket is usable at one time assembly when the sensor is precise mounted to a mechanical piece

and to remove the sensor... you need the proper tool, the ceramics is fragile so a hard screwdriver is not the best (as we figured out the hard way)

danieel: ^

I thought peltier was too inefficent for portable applications

peltier efficiency seems to be very roughly in the 5% to 10% range

__anton: what about FPGA cooling?

that might be 10-20w range

Peltier doesnt have to be on sensor.. on wiki theres a story about a guy who had peltir outside cam and drove sensor sub zero

do existing cinema cameras (ARRI, Sony, Red) use peltier?

On sensor

I think high end cams may use peltier

You want to avoid thermal damage and avoid heating sensor

Sensor needs to be stable ideally

My thinking peltier could be an option

E.g. not everybody would need it but it is nice to be able to put one in optionally

from the Alexa manual: "ALEXA has a Peltier element that keeps the image sensor at a stable temperature. This is important to achieve constant image quality."

Guys if we use a peel away socket but we put a "metal socket" on top of it maybe removing the sensor would still be possible? This metal plate might work as an extraction tool? Hmmm our sensor legs are just 2.5mm.. we would need tall pins on a peel of socket

yes, metal socket with four threads to push it off the pcb. good idea...

off for a nap ... bbl

Hm I don't know if it's feasible what about a magnetic socket combined with removable fitting or is that still too big? And not feasible for a sensor?

http://www.google.com/patents/US8406007

Rebelj12a: what are you trying to solve?

Yes yes I did

solder it or socket it, thats not hard

you can solder it to a board which has a b2b connector..

Well yeah, I might have been misundeerstanding the conversation

Good afternoon XD

closer to?

Peel away sockets or something

I don't know I'm not an engineer I'm just throwing things in the pool. In just a filmmaker :b with a lot of tech experience. xD

Hi, after lots of googling I've seen lots of puctures of through hole mounted peel away sockets and strips. However that would require drilling 240 holes per sensor board. Too expensive? However I just saw one mentioning of surface mounted peel away female sockets and it was "contact the factory" - e.g. it was referred to as smth unusual. Now I am wondering if that would actually work.. Smth has to hold the terminals straight up during so

back now ...

Why would you want to have something like peeling away the sensor?

__anton: and drilling might be an option for the CMV12000 but not for the CMV2000/4000

shouldn't be a problem, IIRC, they had them as well

Q_: we want to peel-away the thing which _holds_ the socket pins together

Q: its about a replacement for that 90 eur socket for cmv12000

Oh hey it worked

The metal strip is to take away the heat

(And I already found that.)

okay, the point is, that we want to cool the sensor, from the back, yes?

Oh.

I didn't know that the sensor would require cooling.

so it's not essential, but it is something we would like to have, if possible

yes, we could use aluminum PCBs I already considered that

but they are expensive and not really easy to get if you want to build your own AXIOM Beta

there are some problems once you go below a certain temperature because of the water in the air, you have to switch to other cooling environments like liquid nitrogen or so :)

God I don't think I know how to pm whatever let me check my archives for tech related to this.

well, if you find something which can be used for the CMV12000, please let us know

Ah blast well price is an issue. Of course

Bertl: We buy special sockets too, but we ussually only buy 1, and they tend to be very expensive.

Q_: okay, yeah, that probably isn't an option folks would like very much :)

Bertl: But they're the type of sockets they don't keep much stock form and ussually have to make a batch when we order one.

Bertl, could we be wrong to avoid connection cables? Is there a cable already for the connectors on Microzed?

You no longer have to have io shields on the front, you can have them in the middle

cables are usually problematic because of shielding/impedance

Rebelj12a: the words "board" and "pcb" in your sentense are synonyms aren't they?

Like on twisted pair?

i.e. cat7 would work :)

forever funding. scary!

Mental experiment: I replace the cable with a straight aux pcb 10 cm long running from front to back of the cam, then cam body is made of tin to shield from external interference. Do i still have a problem?

Well and i have two of them running in parallel because microzed got two sockets

the sensor surface has a distance of 1.8mm +/- 0.2mm from de back of the sensor. So we need the back of the sensor as a reference area for the flange focal distance. This surface should be plain with the back of the lens tube. anyway we should be able to adjust the lens tube this +/- 0.2mm

daFred: we just need to make shure that it isn't too long, the rest can, if necessary, be done with shims

which makes it essential that we devise a good testing setup :)

we should have the feature/task/bug tracker up and running after the weekend (I hope)

but I think you have a flaw in the logic here

we do not really care about them, as the sensor will be screwed against the lens mount

but i may be wrong

Is there a cad drawing or schematic I could get so I can get an idea of how big it is and fits togwther.?

3d model

yes, se6astian should know where you can get it

Ok thanks

inventor drawings

If I use github improperly I apologize in advance. Still getting the hang of it.

you have to log in to do bad things on github, and then sebastian will know...

ohh i thought you deleted yourself

the distance of the mount/sensor is not critical, what is critical is the coplanarity of the 2 things... so you do not end up with unfocusable picture (at 1 time only one corner will focus properly)

That's what I thought. I mean if it interrupts form factor then yes, however on the beta with the interchangeable mount enclosure that should not be a problem

Pie in the sky idea, moving sensor for tilt shift with fixed lens. /end madness

Don't ask it probably doesn't make sense ignore my insanity.

Its not feasible for a commercial product anyways.

pee in the sky idea: we order 450 pcb's shaped as our custom socket and 106650 terminals and make our own sensor sockets.... Including thick copper for cooling...

I mean will Apertus sell parts as well individually?

I thought this pcb is socket and cooling area in one part but we have to build a machine to shoot the terminals in ...

_anton__: how do you prevent the pins from shorting each other? :)

Instead of a whole 240 terminal peel away socket you can use two 120 terminal peel.away stripes or even bigger number of peel away stripes... maybe smaller stripes will be easier to get... inserting all 240 terminals manually sounds too difficult

never seen vias on metal core pcbs

plating over elox? hard to tell how likely would be that you cause a short by mechanical force

I long for civilization D:

If advanced interconnections don't have smaller diameter terminals for peel-away sockets then they can not help us..

__anton__: check also the insertion and removal force. putting 300+ contacts in parallel quite increases the force

danieel: thank you for helpful comments. What is the max insertion force that would be okay for us? CMV12000 datasheet doesn't seem to mention this

i work with kac+andon sockets

its quite hard to push it in, would prefer next time a softer socket

danieel: I see. BTW I've seen your photo with a hole under the sensor. What do you do with it? What goes into that hole?

so a peltier is quite close to the sensor. and on the other side of peltier? a radiator?

a heat pipe?

in a narrow head, it would be just connected to outside metal casing

need to check the mating cycles... sec

rely on the peltier to be of a calibrated thickness. So it becomes unclear how the peltier can be pressed against the outside metal casing

forces which i personally thing are over the limit: insertion=1.1oz max, withdrawal 0.3oz min (@ 267 pins)

there was a discussion where to put the peltier

there is no sense in cooling something more than the chip...

I don't think it is a good idea to have the peltier directly attached to the sensor for several reasons

danieel: I have found this document quite interesting. These guys seem to know what they are talking about: http://www.customthermoelectric.com/TECmounting.html

read it again, the extender is optiona and shall be of minimal size (not larger than the TEC)

danieel: I mean this is how I read their doc.

(in the picture)

but placing the extender might help to average the "pwm" operation on the TEC...

i.e. one second on, one second off?

not that slow.. but making a fine regulated supply at those voltages is quite a challenge

you should really look a little into physics

the part about heat transfer and propagation in metals and air

any extra volume will act as a capacitor, for heat.. so i do not see why that is a problem

that is not true.

second, if you use PWM, which might not be the best idea near a sensor, it will be way faster than the heat transfer

no need to 'even it out' or so

did you read what I wrote?

it doesn't matter if you use an extension or not for the cooling part

so be it ... end of discussion

you might achieve the goal, yes, but with different efficiency, as you will cool the extra stuff you would not need to cool

what is the y axis for?