#apertus IRC Channel Logs

off for a nap ... bbl

good morning Europe!

good morning

Good morning for tobias-deml at Chinese afternoon.

hi se6astian, congrats for the news

Are you guys doing your crowdfunding via Kickstarter (or other service) or on your own?

ApertusWeb0: Indiegogo

Did you guys film your campaign/promo videos with the alpha?

good morning

AH, no... i thought the irc party starts at 8 and the cf at 9 but i am mistaken, juhuuu, i made a mistake :)!!!

I know its very early for Europe to start a party

do you sometimes talk german as well, or do you communicate strictly in english?

the channel language is english, as we have folks from all over the world here

nice :)

go

i want to see the first renders back from elphel times :)!!

thats was one of the treasures I wanted to dig out from the museum :)

hi everyone

you have a 'tweet' button? :)

on the mouse positioned at the tweet button then

though yea, a tweet button would come in handy

need to log in on your twitter account :) , how is it called?

ok first treasure: http://files.apertus.org/archive/axiom-elphel-render03.jpg

how can we fit a huge image sensor to the tiny elphel :)

let to this concept: http://files.apertus.org/archive/render11comp.jpg

is there a name for the symbol on the camera case, which indicates the position of the sensor?

"sensor plane"?

:D (thumps up!)

http://files.apertus.org/archive/render17.jpg

looks nice already!

http://files.apertus.org/archive/render29_comp.jpg

I guess its time to get ready

yes, that would be what I expect too

oho, getting my hair waxxed, my taxedo and my champagne flute

http://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/202530233-How-to-Go-Live

I did it!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/5022798

I guess it was an accident :)

wooohooo

can we push this forward already

?

10

8

6

4

2

1

I am gonna eat a cake now

:-)

shall we push it on every channel known to man now ?

hi

ladies and gentlemen, we have received our first AXIOM Beta Super35 perk contribution

interestingly this person did not go for the early bird perk :)

bug report: clicking on the big image from www.apertus.org gives "Request unsuccessful: Not Found"

:)

its because its still in Beta :)

yes it is

and that's how we handle bugs, they get fixed ASAP :)

first early bird perk has been claimed

Yes, it's wonderful!

ah I am getting spammed, 3rd beta sold

we should now talk about stretch goals :)

derWalter: good question ... answer for now: maybe :)

get both then, as long as they are available :)

money money money it must be funny, in a rich mans wooooorld

small teaser for the documentary: https://vimeo.com/105737662

sorry, where?

derWalter: yeah, that is a little bit cryptical, but as we haven't had a chance to test it properly yet, it is the best we can do for now

Well, that'll make it hard as hell to find you guys...

haha

derWalter: basically it means that you can convert 4k output into special/several HDMI compatible streams and record them, then use sofware to puzzle everything together

please email *email address removed* to discuss a place/time

this is really amazing

after 20 minutes :)

we probably had a bunch of people waiting for this moment

if we would keep that momentum, we should be done tomorrow at the same time :)

good night and thanks for stopping by :)

3% funded before the first hours is up :)

hey all congrats on the funding launch :D

thanks :)

in ~30mins

just logged in well done

for all those using the web irc interface, you can use /nick something to change your nick to something :)

the prices are with or without VAT ?

the high speed shield has two connectors with 10 differential pairs each

Congratulations on this launch

DanUK: thanks!

hehe

wb Buridan!

tyrone_: well, I/O (or more precisely output) bandwidth was one of the limiting factors on the alpha, we learned from that for the beta :)

when you put all the logic's in memory speed limits... and so on....

for example, the TMDS encoders available from xilinx top out at 165MHz pixel clock, but our encoder could do 400MHz+

welcome Juicyfruit!

hi everyone

http://irc.apertus.org/ (channel logs)

yes

well my college :)

ahh cool

\o/

sorry for being afk for two hours ^^ but on the 4k raw over hdmi, can you give me a protocoll name so i can read a little bit into it to get an idea of how this would/will work on the field and what i will need to record it? i am hoping for an ssd addon asap, to write (up to) 4k raw directly to disk. did someone do some actuall work on this, so one can estimate some rough numbers?

Considering 4K RAW we must appreciate the compression used, if uncompressed 4K we require beefier recording systems, compression at determined rates will soften that blow. Are we to have various ways to capture from uncompressed downwards? For UHD, QFHD and the various 4K flavours up to fully uncompressed.

derWalter: I don't think that there are protocls for that yet, we are very much on undiscovered country for that one, but I can give you an idea how it is supposed to work if you like

DanUK, 4k-3k is 12MP is at 10bit/p is about 7.5 Gbit/s I would say for the raw bayer

derWalter: regarding SSD, we are investigating our options there and I'm pretty sure the AXIOM Beta will allow many sofware and hardware developers/hackers to be innovative

you should pick the one which is most likely to suit your needs, but there will be some option to change that at a later time if absolutely necessary I'd say :)

aombk: if you can't decide, just get one of each :)

interesting to see is that the super35 is much more requested...

DanUK, the pressing problem is that with increase in spacial resolution you really also need to increase the temporal resolution in order to actually get the benefit

ok got one

Bertl: jepp your right....

i guess one will be able to use an aps-c sensor and only record the 4/3 area equivalent pixels right?

we did that on the alpha too with the full-hd output over hdmi

e.g. even pixels go to channel 1, odd pixels to channel 2

this can give you almost twice the data with a good recording soluton

derWalter: and finally, both approaches can be combined

will the beta have battery or an external power

the beta board itself will have a simple power connector, the current state is 5V, but there will be a power supply module which can handle 6-40V input from a battery or wall plug

have you sent emails or press releases at dslr blogs?

http://www.cinema5d.com/axiom-4k-camera-update-crowd-funding-starting-today/

https://twitter.com/PhilipBloom/status/509664198561759232

i have 14 followers

will you back us? philip bloom did!

the 14 followers I mean :)

@bertl and in what format would you send the image over hdmi? uncompressed raw? so you have to use 120 hz when recording with 30fps?

for example, or two channels with 60Hz

welcome ctag!

hello!

maybe in the campaign, it should be more clearly stated that you need an external hdmi recorder?

I'm reading over the page now, that would be nice.

Holy cow, this sample footage

s/is/was/

we are curious about the campaign video, did you like it? if possible, share your comments ...

You guys really put together the Alpha in under a year?

Incredible

where finished means we got the first moving pictures :)

Right

That's still crazy impressive

and we didn't even use any of thos proprietary IP cores :)

To me, that's the best part about this campaign/project

Really? :D

Wow

but OTOH, you can get the frontend PCB from OSHpark, download the schematic and bill of materials and build one

Excellent x)

Sorry, I should try reading about it first.

yes, we have linux running on both arm cores atm

helped a lot during development/testing to be able to control everything from a shell script

and the answer is: 'that depends on what you want to do' but rest assured, we will add this to the upcomin FAQ

*upcoming

yes i know, if you want the beta as a decoration, you dont even need a lens

aombk: or if you want to do image analysis or if you plan to do time lapse, or if you attach it to your TV ...

or people can use it as a webcam

Oh man, that'd take livestreaming to the next level

20 EUR missing for the 10% mark :)

i wonder if someone will take the 20keur claim

that would be super-awesome

Have you brought this project to Jupiter Broadcasting's attention?

ctag: not that I'd know of, but double check with se6astian if you want to make sure.

I'm also quite curious what sites will pick up on the AXIOM Beta campaign ...

10.3keur

hello freeeeeeeeeee! hello ApertusWeb9_! let us know if you have any AXIOM related questions ...

Morning. Good luck peeps!

That CMV12000 chip... Ugh.

have you people checked out this crowdfunding campaign? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/898868

wanted to post it in another channel

se6astian: On the housing, I forgot to mention that it is worth having six to eight beefy 3/8ths of an inch, Standard Coarse Thread body set points, female.

troy_s: good, will take care of that :)

(it's nicely labeled on the bottom)

nice momentum indeed, even the spammers already discovered us

but I am faster at clicking to delete them :)

morning!

troy_s: you commented on the S35 sensor earlier?

yeah, we saw similar on the opinion poll from the web site

that is why we decided to have two versions of the beta board, because originally we only planned to use the KAC

dmj726: I did.

Bertl: i think the estimated Image Sensor unit price is for the cmosis is not much more then the KAC

yes, indeed, it gets a lot cheaper at quantities

(EG some on top, sides, and rear. Assume that one may be occluded or hard to reach in each position)

you mean the Beta I presume?

troy_s: what were your thoughts on the s35 sensor?

Would like to nail a profile worthy of the beta label

dmj726: So my thoughts are biased and not trustworthy.

hehe, yeah I remember :) the thing is, we have no data yet from the KAC, so hard to tell

Well when we get there, be sure to ping.

Did you get the shaper curves in place on the board eventually Bertl ?

dmj726: I will be blunt; most folks have no clue what the hell they are talking about regarding pixel values and color, and the discussions tend to skew accordingly into meaninglessness.

My guess is that you can achieve such with most cine cameras, but defaults are coming into play

dmj726: ?

dmjweb: Sorry ^^

dmjweb: Not sure. Link to one?

dmjweb: The way that film emulsion blows out to white and responds to color (due to crosstalk between the layers in the emulsion) can be accurately modeled, and many exist as you know.

17%. That is a solid response.

troy_s: its the third quote

below the youtube embed

and it looks really bad

skinkie: Ah. Thanks.

se6astian: What entry point did A use for grading the footage? Did he just eyeball the whole thing or start with an entry from one of the profiles?

danieel: you know that the black level is not a 0/1 even in digital?

skinkie: He was talking at a level of abstraction above that. Bit flipping due to noise.

skinkie: Being the first bit.

yes there is always some 'tipping' point or noise floor at which the sensor operates itself

Voltage well spill.

this is actually minimum compression you may run a compressor 'lossless'

troy_s: exactly :)

aombk: Anyone that understands color knows that look is all transformational above the raw transform from primary data into known XYZ.

troy_s: but once you understand the raw components at work, you also understand how you could do focussing by different colour values etc :)

so it says nothing about beta

aombk: Yes. You have to remember that unless you are a massive effort with dollars and momentum and such, you are simply going to limp along with the resources you have. Including pull quotes.

;)

aombk: Uh.

I will differ on that front. BM does _much_ well, but the sensor size is a portion of aesthetics so... Well.

the second one translates to me like all the awesomeness and the ease of use that we got from digital will be gone and we are back to the middle ages of photography

aombk: would you care to mail your opinions about them as well?

and I doubt this will be our only commercial campain :)

i doubt that any of us has real commercial experience regarding these types of text

non-native speakers etc.

aombk: The bottom line is that seb wanted pull quotes and put some in. There are no absolute evaluations here. Different audiences read different things. The audience that is the primary target seems to have taken well enough to the message it seems.

aombk: Consider pull quotes as much about the aesthetic of presentation as they are about less abstract factoids.

Hi, I don't really understand the little number of CMOSIS sensor available, is there no way to have one ?

ApertusWeb6: Only the early bird is gone from what I can see.

ApertusWeb6: there are plenty of cmosis devices left, you can grab one right now, as troy_s explained, only the early bird discount is already gone

you may want to set the perk as Featured, so it appears first

For someone who purchases or builds an Axiom Beta, will there be upgrade paths when the Gamma is ready? Or will both lines be kept separate?

yes

search "Upgrade Path:" :)

se6astian: PS: Is crop factor relevant here for a motion picture camera?

there are no plans to shut down the Beta as long as somebody is interested

ctag: You have two of the most dedicated peeps on the planet here in se6astian and Bertl. I wouldn't suggest success is inevitable, but if anyone can pull it off, it is them.

And that's what the Alpha is, correct?

troy_s: thanks for the flowers, we appreciate your time and dedication as well!

troy_s: crofactor, why not?

se6astian: Because there is no real crop factor in cinema..

(AKA the cinema aesthetic was built on the back of vertical Super35, not horizontal VistaVision.)

Oh man, Apertux and Vanitas, this website is full of cool stuff.

I guess if we listed a crop factor difference between CVM12000 and KAC12040 where CMV12000 is 1.0 that would have confused people a lot

I think we also got rid of the ApertusWeb nicks by adding a nick field to the web client ... if somebody can test this, it would be appreciated.

Bertl: i already backed the camera. i am just reporting peoples reaction. and i reply to them sometimes

aombk: that is very much appreciated and I was serious about 'checking' it for unclear or confusing information

it is very hard for somebody who is as deeply involved in the project as se6astian and myself to figure out what folks will understand and what needs to be explained in more detail

it seems we moved to the second place on indiegogo (trend view)

have press releases been sent?

yes, there have been a numnber of press updates featuring the campaign, but as usual, any additional PR is welcome

but there is a flow i think in the campaign

I'm pretty sure we have and will make many mistakes, after all it is the first time and we're just human :)

we hope so, check it out and tell us your opinion?

it talks about the community

Yeah, the video should be the "big idea" the basic concept, why it matters, and how you can trust the creators

latest campaign stats: 8,435 unique visitors so far today

super35 sensor and global shutter are both mentioned

but all that is in an infographic right below

the internal microSD can sustain 50MB/s bandwidth and we get the same for the external microSD

so you tested and got about these numbers? nice

correct, the gigabit ethernet can achieve higher rates with FPGA support (offloading)

Hi Bertl!

great! do you like it?

any questions we can answer for you?

Bertl: You uh... haven't filled out your IndieGoGo credentials. Might want to do that. ;)

but it is work in progress, I hope :)

yes, but we kind of expected that from the opinion poll anyways ... nevertheless, I'm curious how it will rank at the end

Bertl: Wouldn't be surprised if it ends up with same factors

rdroro: the format of the KAC sensor

you're welcome!

nope, not this time, low budget, and somebody has to work on the beta :)

here's a question for you guys: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg128109#msg128109

yes

it's documented here: www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7122

how well... I can't be the judge :P

Could this be actually implemented in the FPGA itself?

I presume it is more a wrapper format like DNG (haven't looked into it yet)

hello, newb here. love that you went crowdsourcing and thinking of getting an s35 (just a magic lantern hobbyist tho). cinema-dng would surely sound impressive :D

thanks Bertl :) not many questionsn as of yet, im just wondering why the cmv12000 is indicated at 10 stops dynamic range :D

well, we are probably more honest about the stats, but you can expand the dynamic range with HDR modes

im a bit conservative about HDR :D

yes, there is the xmas image from last year :)

I need two test images of the same static scene, because I'll subtract them to keep only the random noise part

any out-of-focus HDR scene should do the trick (so it covers both highlights, shadows and midtones)

I'm sure se6astian can take a few snapshots after he returns from IBC if you tell him what to do

oh youre THAT alex... sorry for not noticing. please accept random deals of great gratitude :)

thanks

yep, on the Alpha, everything can be done via ssh, and it helped a lot during development/testing to be able to use shell scripts :)

why not? Canon used a shell console too, it's just hidden :P

yeah, but it won't be hidden on AXIOM, ever! :)

so the camera will have vulnerabilities and it will be hackable

se-linux? xD

welcome ludidonkihot!

ok after alpha and beta, i suggest you rename gamma to axiom nightly and add great low light capabilities

aombk, dunno if the sensor can follow :D

PCIe is also an option but requires dedicated serdes hardware which is not available without addon

too bad without rolling shutter we wont be able to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKXOucXB4a8