Current Server Time: 22:31 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/09/10

Timezone: UTC


01:15
aombk
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ApertusWeb3
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Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
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06:36
tobias-deml
good morning Europe!
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wescotte
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07:17
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
07:18
se6astian
good morning
07:18
se6astian
hi tobias-deml, great to have you with us at such a late US time :)
07:24
Morethink
Good morning for tobias-deml at Chinese afternoon.
07:29
ApertusWeb0
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07:30
alexML
hi se6astian, congrats for the news
07:30
tobias-deml
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07:31
ApertusWeb0
Are you guys doing your crowdfunding via Kickstarter (or other service) or on your own?
07:38
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07:39
se6astian
ApertusWeb0: Indiegogo
07:39
se6astian
as kickstarter is not available to creators for most of europe
07:44
ApertusWeb0
Did you guys film your campaign/promo videos with the alpha?
07:45
ApertusWeb5
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ApertusWeb0
changed nick to: Wescotte
07:47
Bertl
morning folks!
07:50
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07:51
se6astian
Wescotte: no, as we show the prototype in the video all the time :)
07:53
sutrepa
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07:53
Bertl
but there is a lot of footage from the alpha in it as well
07:55
tobias-deml
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07:55
tobias-deml
hell yeah!
07:55
OSCAR
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07:55
tobias-deml
I am editing a quick teaser for the doc btw ;)
07:57
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07:59
OSCAR
Hi all!
08:00
philippej
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08:01
tobias-deml
hey Oscar!
08:01
danieel
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derWalter
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08:08
se6astian
good morning
08:08
derWalter
moin ... i missed all the good stuff by now :/
08:09
derWalter
AH, no... i thought the irc party starts at 8 and the cf at 9 but i am mistaken, juhuuu, i made a mistake :)!!!
08:10
Bertl
so everything fine then :)
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macbookprocmc
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08:20
se6astian
40 minutes to go
08:20
se6astian
I know its very early for Europe to start a party
08:20
se6astian
and very late for the US :)
08:22
derWalter
do you sometimes talk german as well, or do you communicate strictly in english?
08:23
mars_
PARDEY!
08:26
Bertl
the channel language is english, as we have folks from all over the world here
08:27
Bertl
german in private messages is fine, at least for sebastian an myself (and probably some other folks here)
08:28
derWalter
nice :)
08:30
se6astian
30 minutes to
08:30
se6astian
go
08:31
OSCAR
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08:32
derWalter
i want to see the first renders back from elphel times :)!!
08:36
se6astian
ah yes thanks for the reminder walter
08:36
se6astian
thats was one of the treasures I wanted to dig out from the museum :)
08:36
ApertusWeb7
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08:37
mgielda
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08:37
philippej
Hi everyone !
08:37
mgielda
hi everyone
08:38
Bertl
hey! how's going?
08:38
ApertusWeb5
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08:38
mgielda
I have my finger on the 'tweet' button ;)
08:38
Bertl
you have a 'tweet' button? :)
08:38
mgielda
will try to push the news to the electronics industry
08:39
mgielda
on the mouse positioned at the tweet button then
08:39
ApertusWeb4
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08:39
mgielda
though yea, a tweet button would come in handy
08:39
mgielda
need to reorg my keyboard
08:39
derWalter
need to log in on your twitter account :) , how is it called?
08:39
Bertl
http://a.tgcdn.net/images/products/additional/large/15a5_big_red_button_inuse.jpg
08:40
se6astian
ok first treasure: http://files.apertus.org/archive/axiom-elphel-render03.jpg
08:40
derWalter
(auto refresh script loaded...)
08:40
se6astian
how can we fit a huge image sensor to the tiny elphel :)
08:40
derWalter
looks quite familiar :) (the render ^^)
08:41
se6astian
let to this concept: http://files.apertus.org/archive/render11comp.jpg
08:42
se6astian
*led
08:42
derWalter
is there a name for the symbol on the camera case, which indicates the position of the sensor?
08:42
OSCAR
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08:43
se6astian
"sensor plane"?
08:43
se6astian
the next step already looked quite useable: http://files.apertus.org/archive/render16.jpg
08:43
derWalter
:D (thumps up!)
08:44
se6astian
here with a small history of models
08:44
se6astian
http://files.apertus.org/archive/render17.jpg
08:44
se6astian
these renders are from 2011 btw
08:45
derWalter
looks nice already!
08:45
tobias-deml
crazy stuff :D
08:47
se6astian
http://files.apertus.org/archive/render29_comp.jpg
08:48
se6astian
ok its almost 9:40
08:48
se6astian
I guess its time to get ready
08:49
se6astian
I am hugely afraid of indiegogo saying something like "thank you for submiting your campaign, our staff will review and publish it in the next 3 days" once I hit the big red button :)
08:49
Bertl
yes, that would be what I expect too
08:49
Bertl
after all, they didn't manage to make the verification work in the last three days
08:50
derWalter
oho, getting my hair waxxed, my taxedo and my champagne flute
08:52
Wescotte
Does Indiegogo ever vet campaigns? I know Kickstarter used to approve each one but they quit doing that.
08:52
Eddy_
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08:52
Wescotte
or at least it'a automated for Kickstarter now.
08:52
derWalter
http://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/202530233-How-to-Go-Live
08:53
philippej
they advertise it as being instant, but who knows ...
08:54
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08:55
se6astian
I did it!
08:55
se6astian
its instant :)
08:55
se6astian
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/5022798
08:55
Wescotte
Jumped the gun a bit :)
08:56
Bertl
I guess it was an accident :)
08:56
se6astian
well I have a few other things to publish before 10:00 and need the indiegogo URL :)
08:56
derWalter
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08:57
se6astian
and mentally I wouldnt have survived the tension of a countdown of the last seconds :)
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08:58
mgielda
wooohooo
08:58
tobias-deml
yeyeyeye
08:59
mgielda
can we push this forward already
08:59
ApertusWeb8_
congratulations apertus team !!
08:59
mgielda
?
08:59
tobias-deml
getting so close :D
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ApertusWeb8_
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Bertl
mgielda: I guess :)
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ApertusWeb8_
1
09:00
tobias-deml
BOOM PROSECCO!!
09:00
tobias-deml
I am gonna eat a cake now
09:00
sutrepa
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09:00
philippej
:-)
09:00
se6astian
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-crowdfunding-launch
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09:01
philippej
shall we push it on every channel known to man now ?
09:01
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09:02
Bertl
for all those using the web interface, you can use /nick something to change your nick to something :)
09:02
ApertusWeb5__
hi
09:03
Bertl
s/web interface/web irc interface/
09:03
ApertusWeb4
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09:03
Bertl
otherwise the many ApertusWebXXX names will become confusing
09:04
se6astian
ladies and gentlemen, we have received our first AXIOM Beta Super35 perk contribution
09:04
ApertusWeb6
changed nick to: antwerp
09:04
se6astian
interestingly this person did not go for the early bird perk :)
09:05
Bertl
the freedom of choice ....
09:05
alexML
bug report: clicking on the big image from www.apertus.org gives "Request unsuccessful: Not Found"
09:05
ApertusWeb5__
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09:06
Bertl
alexML: hehe, yeah, first bug :)
09:07
OSCAR
:)
09:07
Ata22
There is also a bug here: https://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-crowdfunding-launch when you click on: Go to Crowd Funding Website
09:07
se6astian
its because its still in Beta :)
09:08
se6astian
all links should be fixed now
09:08
Ata22
yes it is
09:09
philippej
fixed
09:09
Bertl
and that's how we handle bugs, they get fixed ASAP :)
09:09
tyrone_
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09:10
se6astian
first early bird perk has been claimed
09:10
tyrone_
congratulations to all nice funding page btw. :-)
09:11
OSCAR
Yes, it's wonderful!
09:11
OSCAR
The animation is also great, congratulations!
09:11
se6astian
ah I am getting spammed, 3rd beta sold
09:12
derWalter
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09:12
Bertl
we should now talk about stretch goals :)
09:12
derWalter
is it possible to change the early bird option later on for the other sensor?
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09:13
Bertl
derWalter: good question ... answer for now: maybe :)
09:14
derWalter
cause i dont know yet which one would be more satisfying for me :/
09:15
Bertl
get both then, as long as they are available :)
09:15
se6astian
lol
09:15
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09:15
se6astian
just choose the one you think is better and we can swap the sensor later on
09:15
derWalter
money money money it must be funny, in a rich mans wooooorld
09:17
derWalter
i took the cheaper option, it seems easier to ask for an upgrade than for a downgrade ^^
09:17
tobias-deml
small teaser for the documentary: https://vimeo.com/105737662
09:17
derWalter
btw, as my webirc crashed without noticing me... i was always wondering (and didnt find specific information about it) about this: 4K RAW output via experimental HDMI formats
09:17
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09:18
ApertusWeb5
When are you guys at IBC?
09:18
ApertusWeb5
sorry, where?
09:18
antwerp
are you at IBC ?!?!?
09:19
Bertl
derWalter: yeah, that is a little bit cryptical, but as we haven't had a chance to test it properly yet, it is the best we can do for now
09:19
se6astian
ApertusWeb5 we dont have a booth, we will just be roaming the showfloor on saturday
09:19
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09:19
antwerp
OK
09:19
ApertusWeb5
Well, that'll make it hard as hell to find you guys...
09:19
ApertusWeb5
We're doing much the same
09:20
antwerp
haha
09:20
philippej
derWalter, it means you'll be able to use an external hdmi recorder and providing the signal sent is correct and the recorder supports the format (like they do with the sony 7s) it will record in 4k
09:20
Bertl
derWalter: basically it means that you can convert 4k output into special/several HDMI compatible streams and record them, then use sofware to puzzle everything together
09:20
se6astian
ApertusWeb5 we can either contact each other there or set a meeting time/spot in advance :)
09:20
se6astian
please email team@apertus.org to discuss a place/time
09:22
dmj726
wow, these things are selling like hotcakes
09:23
mars_
this is really amazing
09:23
Bertl
2% already
09:23
se6astian
after 20 minutes :)
09:23
dmj726
not surprised
09:24
dmj726
we probably had a bunch of people waiting for this moment
09:24
Wescotte
congrats on the launch guys but I think it's time for bed
09:24
Bertl
if we would keep that momentum, we should be done tomorrow at the same time :)
09:24
Bertl
Wescotte: have a good night then!
09:25
se6astian
good night and thanks for stopping by :)
09:27
tobias-deml
yes, also good night time here in Berkeley, on to a great day and tons of sharing the link as soon as the Americans are awake again! :D
09:27
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09:32
philippej
advices here : http://go.indiegogo.com/playbook/life-cycle-phase/running-your-campaign
09:34
Buridan
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09:34
mars_
over 2k!
09:36
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Buridan
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09:41
mgielda
3% funded before the first hours is up :)
09:43
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mfoxdogg
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09:44
mfoxdogg
hey all congrats on the funding launch :D
09:44
mfoxdogg
hi slikdigit :)
09:44
se6astian
thanks :)
09:44
mars_
it's going really well
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Buridan
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09:47
mars_
3.5k!
09:49
mfoxdogg
in ~30mins
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10:12
Bertl
if there are any question, please do not hesitate to ask ...
10:15
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10:18
OSCAR
Again, lots of congratulations to all of your great work!
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10:20
tyrone_
bertl where is the champagne? :-)
10:22
FergusL
comes in the early-morning party
10:23
Bertl
tyrone_: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/8543226
10:23
ApertusWeb9_
just logged in well done
10:25
Bertl
otherwise the many ApertusWebXXX names will become confusing
10:26
Bertl
for all those using the web irc interface, you can use /nick something to change your nick to something :)
10:26
Bertl
(in reverse order :)
10:27
danieel
the prices are with or without VAT ?
10:29
tyrone_
bertl, how many i/o ports are planned for the High Speed IO Shield for using to transfer the camera data?
10:29
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10:30
FergusL
there is the weekly meeting at the hackerspace tonight, I want to get people to drink alcohol and then I can present the project and offer to pledge to the campaign on my computer
10:30
mgielda
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10:30
Bertl
the high speed shield has two connectors with 10 differential pairs each
10:31
Bertl
so a total of 40 IOs for high speed data, and some low speed lines as well
10:31
DanUK
Congratulations on this launch
10:31
Bertl
tyrone_: note that the connection should allow up to 1G/s per pair
10:31
Bertl
DanUK: thanks!
10:32
Bertl
FergusL: sounds like a plan :)
10:32
FergusL
hehe
10:33
tyrone_
Bertl: not bad.... i had expected maybe half of the bandwidth....
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10:36
DanUK
We will be making our pledge to the campaign today looking forward to the journey.
10:38
Bertl
wb Buridan!
10:38
Bertl
DanUK: great! thanks!
10:39
Bertl
tyrone_: well, I/O (or more precisely output) bandwidth was one of the limiting factors on the alpha, we learned from that for the beta :)
10:43
tyrone_
Bertl: i'm a bit suprised of the Zynq 7020 i was thinking it would be to slow for the cmosis sensor....
10:43
tyrone_
when you put all the logic's in memory speed limits... and so on....
10:44
Bertl
well, I guess it depends on what software you use/write
10:45
Bertl
for example, the TMDS encoders available from xilinx top out at 165MHz pixel clock, but our encoder could do 400MHz+
10:45
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10:46
Bertl
welcome Juicyfruit!
10:46
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10:46
Juicyfruit
hi everyone
10:46
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10:47
tyrone_
sounds nice.... :-)
10:47
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10:48
Juicyfruit
what does ?
10:48
Bertl
http://irc.apertus.org/ (channel logs)
10:49
Juicyfruit
Bertl, are you one of the people doing the project ?
10:49
Bertl
yes
10:49
Juicyfruit
Do you by any chance have an appointment in Amsterdam at IBC this saterday with me ?
10:50
Juicyfruit
well my college :)
10:50
Bertl
no, but se6astian is there, so maybe he has :)
10:50
Juicyfruit
ahh cool
10:52
philippej
We just crossed 4K (pun intended)
11:01
Bertl
\o/
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11:11
derWalter
sorry for being afk for two hours ^^ but on the 4k raw over hdmi, can you give me a protocoll name so i can read a little bit into it to get an idea of how this would/will work on the field and what i will need to record it? i am hoping for an ssd addon asap, to write (up to) 4k raw directly to disk. did someone do some actuall work on this, so one can estimate some rough numbers?
11:12
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myshko
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11:17
DanUK
Considering 4K RAW we must appreciate the compression used, if uncompressed 4K we require beefier recording systems, compression at determined rates will soften that blow. Are we to have various ways to capture from uncompressed downwards? For UHD, QFHD and the various 4K flavours up to fully uncompressed.
11:17
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11:17
Bertl
derWalter: I don't think that there are protocls for that yet, we are very much on undiscovered country for that one, but I can give you an idea how it is supposed to work if you like
11:19
Bertl
DanUK: initially uncompressed raw will be used, but there is nothing stopping us (or you) from adding lossless or even lossy compression to the output pipeline
11:19
Juicyfruit
DanUK, 4k-3k is 12MP is at 10bit/p is about 7.5 Gbit/s I would say for the raw bayer
11:20
aombk
ok i am about to fund one
11:20
Bertl
derWalter: regarding SSD, we are investigating our options there and I'm pretty sure the AXIOM Beta will allow many sofware and hardware developers/hackers to be innovative
11:21
aombk
so i now have to choose a path? like 4/3 or aps-c path and after this, in the future, no changing between sensor format families will be possible?
11:22
Bertl
you should pick the one which is most likely to suit your needs, but there will be some option to change that at a later time if absolutely necessary I'd say :)
11:22
DanUK
Thanks Bertl and Juicyfruit.
11:23
Bertl
aombk: if you can't decide, just get one of each :)
11:23
Juicyfruit
DanUK, obviously depends on frame rate and sensor.. I used 12MP at 60p for that rate
11:26
tyrone_
interesting to see is that the super35 is much more requested...
11:26
DanUK
Juicyfruit, agreed, 444 dual link was 2.2Gb/s data throughput uncompressed at 1920x1080 (F35, Viper etc) but we have gone into compressed 4K and above and as with the Phantom at mind boggling frame rates we can see that many factors impact on your capture data throughput and media amounts recorded
11:27
Juicyfruit
DanUK, the pressing problem is that with increase in spacial resolution you really also need to increase the temporal resolution in order to actually get the benefit
11:27
Bertl
tyrone_: it seems to match the preference given earlier on the web pages
11:28
aombk
ok got one
11:28
Juicyfruit
my company actually has a Cmosis CMV12000 / FPGA based solution for computer vision applications but the data rates are well indeed mind boggling
11:28
tyrone_
Bertl: jepp your right....
11:29
Bertl
aombk: congratulations! and thanks for backing!
11:30
aombk
i guess one will be able to use an aps-c sensor and only record the 4/3 area equivalent pixels right?
11:32
Bertl
yes, cropping isn't really a problem
11:33
Bertl
we did that on the alpha too with the full-hd output over hdmi
11:37
derWalter
thx guys for the answers! @bertl yes sure, i would love to!
11:38
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11:39
Bertl
derWalter: okay, so the simplest option is to split up the captured image into smaller parts and send each part over a separate HDMI channel
11:40
Bertl
e.g. even pixels go to channel 1, odd pixels to channel 2
11:40
Bertl
another option is to increase the pixel clock up to the limit of the recorder actually used
11:40
Buridan
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11:40
Bertl
this can give you almost twice the data with a good recording soluton
11:41
mars_
6.7keur
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11:52
Bertl
derWalter: and finally, both approaches can be combined
11:56
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11:59
aombk
will the beta have battery or an external power
11:59
aombk
?
12:02
Bertl
the beta board itself will have a simple power connector, the current state is 5V, but there will be a power supply module which can handle 6-40V input from a battery or wall plug
12:03
Bertl
so you can use an existing camera battery of your choice, or a simple lead-gel accumulator or just a power supply
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12:16
aombk
have you sent emails or press releases at dslr blogs?
12:17
Bertl
se6astian will know ...
12:18
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12:20
aombk
http://www.cinema5d.com/axiom-4k-camera-update-crowd-funding-starting-today/
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12:27
aombk
shall i tweet about the crouwnfunding campaign? how many orders you think you can satisfy?
12:27
se6astian
https://twitter.com/PhilipBloom/status/509664198561759232
12:27
se6astian
please tweet until your fingers are stiff :D
12:29
aombk
i have 14 followers
12:30
aombk
you could use that as a tagline
12:30
aombk
will you back us? philip bloom did!
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12:34
se6astian
lol, great plan :)
12:34
se6astian
the 14 followers I mean :)
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12:35
derWalter
@bertl and in what format would you send the image over hdmi? uncompressed raw? so you have to use 120 hz when recording with 30fps?
12:37
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12:37
Bertl
for example, or two channels with 60Hz
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13:05
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13:05
Bertl
welcome ctag!
13:06
ctag
Hi! o/
13:07
se6astian
hello!
13:07
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13:09
aombk
maybe in the campaign, it should be more clearly stated that you need an external hdmi recorder?
13:09
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13:09
ctag
I'm reading over the page now, that would be nice.
13:10
Bertl
well, it depends on what you want to do, it is not required for many tasks
13:10
ctag
Holy cow, this sample footage
13:11
Bertl
that is done with the alpha, our Proof of Concept prototype
13:11
Bertl
s/is/was/
13:11
ctag
Awesome
13:12
Bertl
we are curious about the campaign video, did you like it? if possible, share your comments ...
13:13
ctag
Right
13:13
ctag
scrounges for headphones
13:13
ctag
don't want to wake the roommate
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13:16
ctag
Hehe, a dangerous approach
13:19
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13:19
ctag
I think that was an excellent campaign video.
13:21
ctag
You guys really put together the Alpha in under a year?
13:21
Bertl
six months take or leave a few days
13:21
ctag
Incredible
13:21
Bertl
we started in summer and finished at x-mas
13:22
Bertl
where finished means we got the first moving pictures :)
13:22
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13:22
ctag
Right
13:22
Bertl
after that a lot of tuning and testing and fixing was done
13:22
ctag
That's still crazy impressive
13:23
ctag
:P I can imagine
13:23
Bertl
and we didn't even use any of thos proprietary IP cores :)
13:24
Bertl
so everything is available as FOSS/OH (free and open source software/open hardware)
13:24
ctag
To me, that's the best part about this campaign/project
13:25
Bertl
we already had two folks who started building the alpha (not the beta), one seems to have completed his 'alpha' by now
13:25
ctag
Really? :D
13:26
Bertl
yes, fascinating if you consider that we made no detailed documentation how to build one (mostly because we didn't expect somebody to build the shoebox camera :)
13:26
ctag
Wow
13:27
ctag
I just passed the campaign page off to our film leader, this is going to melt his mind.
13:27
Bertl
but OTOH, you can get the frontend PCB from OSHpark, download the schematic and bill of materials and build one
13:27
Bertl
for the software part, an SD card suffices, if you know your way around with ssh :)
13:27
ctag
Excellent x)
13:28
ctag
So, the device itself is running an operating system?
13:28
ctag
Sorry, I should try reading about it first.
13:28
ctag
Right, ARM based.'
13:30
Bertl
yes, we have linux running on both arm cores atm
13:31
Bertl
but you can install something different there as well, as long as it supports the hardware
13:31
Bertl
helped a lot during development/testing to be able to control everything from a shell script
13:31
aombk
i sen some emails about the campaign and many of them got interested but i got back this question a lot "so, one needs an external recorder?"
13:32
Bertl
and the answer is: 'that depends on what you want to do' but rest assured, we will add this to the upcomin FAQ
13:32
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13:32
Bertl
*upcoming
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13:33
aombk
yes i know, if you want the beta as a decoration, you dont even need a lens
13:33
ctag
Cool, was just wondering what a 3x hdmi to hard disk would look like.
13:34
Bertl
aombk: or if you want to do image analysis or if you plan to do time lapse, or if you attach it to your TV ...
13:34
Bertl
ctag: we have some ideas how that could look like :)
13:35
aombk
or people can use it as a webcam
13:35
Bertl
yes, you do not even need a web server for that, everything can be done on the camera
13:35
ctag
Oh man, that'd take livestreaming to the next level
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13:38
Bertl
20 EUR missing for the 10% mark :)
13:38
Bertl
not bad for four and a half hour ...
13:38
mars_
i wonder if someone will take the 20keur claim
13:39
freeeeeeeeeee
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13:39
mars_
that would be super-awesome
13:39
Bertl
indeed
13:40
ctag
Have you brought this project to Jupiter Broadcasting's attention?
13:40
ctag
No reason that you would, just want to check before sending it to them.
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13:40
Bertl
ctag: not that I'd know of, but double check with se6astian if you want to make sure.
13:41
ctag
Cool, I'll wait a bit for him here.
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13:42
ctag
Yes, your project's been on their subreddit for a while, just found it :D
13:42
Bertl
I'm also quite curious what sites will pick up on the AXIOM Beta campaign ...
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mars_
10.3keur
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14:07
Bertl
hello freeeeeeeeeee! hello ApertusWeb9_! let us know if you have any AXIOM related questions ...
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14:17
ChanServ
14:18
se6astian
has set the topic
14:19
se6astian
has set the topic
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14:52
troy_s
Morning. Good luck peeps!
14:53
troy_s
Bertl se6astian Best of luck my peeps.
14:54
troy_s
That CMV12000 chip... Ugh.
15:09
freeeeeeeeeee
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15:18
aombk
have you people checked out this crowdfunding campaign? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/898868
15:18
aombk
haha, sory
15:19
aombk
wanted to post it in another channel
15:20
ctag
aombk: as a matter of fact... :P
15:22
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15:28
troy_s
se6astian: On the housing, I forgot to mention that it is worth having six to eight beefy 3/8ths of an inch, Standard Coarse Thread body set points, female.
15:28
troy_s
se6astian: I remember discussing it ages ago, but relevant now. For additional stability and support via spuds / thread.
15:46
se6astian
troy_s: good, will take care of that :)
15:56
dmj726
Red Epic has a 1/4 inch threaded hole 25mm in front of the first of two 3/8ths, which are spaced 50mm apart.
15:56
dmj726
(it's nicely labeled on the bottom)
15:57
dmj726
wow, such momentum on the campaign day one!
16:02
se6astian
nice momentum indeed, even the spammers already discovered us
16:02
se6astian
every second comment on the campaign offers paid click or promotion services....
16:03
se6astian
but I am faster at clicking to delete them :)
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philippej5
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16:34
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16:34
dmjweb
morning all
16:35
Bertl
morning!
16:37
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17:02
dmjweb
interesting the super35 vs 4/3 interest
17:02
dmjweb
troy_s: you commented on the S35 sensor earlier?
17:12
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17:18
Bertl
yeah, we saw similar on the opinion poll from the web site
17:19
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17:19
Bertl
that is why we decided to have two versions of the beta board, because originally we only planned to use the KAC
17:22
troy_s
dmj726: Yes?
17:22
troy_s
dmj726: I did.
17:23
troy_s
se6astian: 1/4 20 (quarter inch diameter bolt thread with 20 pitch) is common as hell in stills and accessories, but absolute crap for motion picture cameras due to more extreme applications.)
17:23
ApertusWeb2
changed nick to: Nuno
17:24
Nuno
changed nick to: NunoF
17:24
tyrone_
Bertl: i think the estimated Image Sensor unit price is for the cmosis is not much more then the KAC
17:24
NunoF
changed nick to: giantpt
17:25
Bertl
yes, indeed, it gets a lot cheaper at quantities
17:25
troy_s
se6astian: Ideally you should try to find spots that A) feed direct into the chassis in a rigid and non shearable position B) that won't bottom out into electronics (this has happened since the SRII!) C) are distributed well enough to handle three axes of torque.
17:26
troy_s
(EG some on top, sides, and rear. Assume that one may be occluded or hard to reach in each position)
17:27
troy_s
Bertl: When the Alpha lands, we should probably do a session to generate profiles again. This time a little more refined, and then I will generate a well behaved profile with a true achromatic axis.
17:28
Bertl
you mean the Beta I presume?
17:28
troy_s
Bertl: Oops. Yes.
17:28
dmjweb
troy_s: what were your thoughts on the s35 sensor?
17:29
troy_s
Worth revisiting. Doubly so with folks like PB etc. on board.
17:29
troy_s
Would like to nail a profile worthy of the beta label
17:29
troy_s
dmj726: I have emotional scar tissue still from the earlier data Bertl offloaded from it.
17:30
troy_s
dmj726: So my thoughts are biased and not trustworthy.
17:30
troy_s
Bertl: How did the KAC behave?
17:30
Bertl
hehe, yeah I remember :) the thing is, we have no data yet from the KAC, so hard to tell
17:30
troy_s
Erf.
17:31
troy_s
Well when we get there, be sure to ping.
17:31
dmjweb
troy_s: fair enough
17:31
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17:31
dmjweb
quite interesting the comments on filmic black levels though
17:31
troy_s
Did you get the shaper curves in place on the board eventually Bertl ?
17:31
troy_s
dmj726: What about them?
17:32
troy_s
dmj726: I will be blunt; most folks have no clue what the hell they are talking about regarding pixel values and color, and the discussions tend to skew accordingly into meaninglessness.
17:33
troy_s
The chats just steer into arbitrary qualia in non-controlled contexts.
17:33
dmjweb
My guess is that you can achieve such with most cine cameras, but defaults are coming into play
17:34
troy_s
dmj726: Still not clear on the topic. Where is the black level discussion and what context?
17:39
troy_s
dmj726: ?
17:39
troy_s
Fffff
17:39
troy_s
dmjweb: Sorry ^^
17:43
dmjweb
troy_s: quotes on the indiegogo page
17:46
troy_s
dmjweb: Not sure. Link to one?
17:47
troy_s
dmjweb: Most of the chat about color is synthetic. We can bend the captured sensor values to known XYZ values and generate a reliable transform, but black and white response as being "film like" is nothing more than an abstraction above that.
17:48
troy_s
dmjweb: The way that film emulsion blows out to white and responds to color (due to crosstalk between the layers in the emulsion) can be accurately modeled, and many exist as you know.
17:51
troy_s
Odd. Comments only show seb's.
17:53
troy_s
17%. That is a solid response.
17:53
troy_s
I think that tracks well for a successful funding.
17:53
skinkie
troy_s: its the third quote
17:54
skinkie
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/8609784
17:54
skinkie
below the youtube embed
17:54
danieel
i agree with troy_s - black is nothing in digital. if it jumps from 0 to 1 (the 1st bit) then you get from black to some point - depending on your gamma setting
17:55
danieel
and it looks really bad
17:55
danieel
so if you have noise in the bottom, you cant tell where it oscilates around
17:55
troy_s
skinkie: Ah. Thanks.
17:57
troy_s
dmjweb: Bear in mind that the colorist worked with a variety of starting points, from raw sensor way out of whack to having a profiled (30-4 dE (huge variation as it evolved)) entry point.
17:58
troy_s
se6astian: What entry point did A use for grading the footage? Did he just eyeball the whole thing or start with an entry from one of the profiles?
18:00
aombk
http://nofilmschool.com/2014/09/apertus-axiom-beta-crowdfunding
18:02
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18:03
aombk
the truth is, i dont really like the three quotes in the campaign
18:03
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18:04
troy_s
aombk: What about them bothers you?
18:05
skinkie
danieel: you know that the black level is not a 0/1 even in digital?
18:06
troy_s
skinkie: He's aware.
18:06
troy_s
skinkie: He was talking at a level of abstraction above that. Bit flipping due to noise.
18:07
skinkie
ok :)
18:07
troy_s
skinkie: Being the first bit.
18:07
troy_s
skinkie: (or more)
18:07
skinkie
yes there is always some 'tipping' point or noise floor at which the sensor operates itself
18:07
troy_s
The sensel wells will fire for any number of reasons. Temperature, IR, etc.
18:07
troy_s
Voltage well spill.
18:07
aombk
the first one doesnt talk about true or accurate or great image, it talks about a unique style etc... that translates to me like something very specific special strange style useful only to very few people
18:08
skinkie
this is actually minimum compression you may run a compressor 'lossless'
18:08
troy_s
skinkie: I learned quite a bit from Bertl early on... Sensors don't behave anything like the data you get out of a consumer / end transformed version.
18:08
skinkie
troy_s: exactly :)
18:09
skinkie
troy_s: this is also the reason for JP4 in the Elphel stuff
18:09
troy_s
aombk: Anyone that understands color knows that look is all transformational above the raw transform from primary data into known XYZ.
18:09
troy_s
aombk: That said, all sensors are unique, somewhat akin to film stocks; they all bend data.
18:09
skinkie
troy_s: but once you understand the raw components at work, you also understand how you could do focussing by different colour values etc :)
18:10
aombk
so this quote applies to all cameras
18:10
aombk
so it says nothing about beta
18:11
aombk
maybe that it is a bit more unique than the others
18:11
troy_s
aombk: Yes. You have to remember that unless you are a massive effort with dollars and momentum and such, you are simply going to limp along with the resources you have. Including pull quotes.
18:11
aombk
and thats a problem
18:11
troy_s
;)
18:11
aombk
nobody said black magic 4k is unique. just beautifull
18:12
troy_s
aombk: Uh.
18:12
aombk
dont get confused here. i am just explaining why i dont like the quotes. do you want me to stop?
18:12
troy_s
I will differ on that front. BM does _much_ well, but the sensor size is a portion of aesthetics so... Well.
18:13
troy_s
aombk: Not at all. I was just curious as to why.
18:13
aombk
the second one translates to me like all the awesomeness and the ease of use that we got from digital will be gone and we are back to the middle ages of photography
18:13
troy_s
aombk: But this is a constraints game.
18:13
skinkie
aombk: would you care to mail your opinions about them as well?
18:13
skinkie
maybe that is better than IRC
18:13
skinkie
and I doubt this will be our only commercial campain :)
18:13
aombk
yes maybe i will
18:14
skinkie
i doubt that any of us has real commercial experience regarding these types of text
18:14
troy_s
aombk: Disagree on the second point. Having a darkroom is a thing many miss in digital due to canned rubbish workflows. I completely understood that point.
18:14
skinkie
non-native speakers etc.
18:14
troy_s
aombk: So I completely disagree on that context. Still... Arbitrary.
18:15
troy_s
aombk: The bottom line is that seb wanted pull quotes and put some in. There are no absolute evaluations here. Different audiences read different things. The audience that is the primary target seems to have taken well enough to the message it seems.
18:16
troy_s
So I wouldn't stress too much about pull quotes.
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18:17
aombk
all i am saying is these quotes meaning is not absolutely clear. how do you say... ambiguous
18:17
troy_s
aombk: Consider pull quotes as much about the aesthetic of presentation as they are about less abstract factoids.
18:18
aombk
brb
18:18
ApertusWeb6
Hi, I don't really understand the little number of CMOSIS sensor available, is there no way to have one ?
18:20
troy_s
ApertusWeb6: Right column.
18:21
troy_s
ApertusWeb6: Only the early bird is gone from what I can see.
18:21
troy_s
ApertusWeb6: 50€ bonus early bird is the only version that is gone.
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18:23
Bertl
ApertusWeb6: you can change your nick with /nick somenick if you don't like the confusing ApertusWeb6 :)
18:23
Bertl
ApertusWeb6: there are plenty of cmosis devices left, you can grab one right now, as troy_s explained, only the early bird discount is already gone
18:25
troy_s
Poor Bertl ... Looks like you will be busy carefully building a _lot_ of cameras. Yikes.
18:25
alexML
you may want to set the perk as Featured, so it appears first
18:29
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18:29
ctag
For someone who purchases or builds an Axiom Beta, will there be upgrade paths when the Gamma is ready? Or will both lines be kept separate?
18:31
troy_s
ctag: That is listed there no? Upgrade I believe.
18:31
se6astian
yes
18:31
se6astian
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/5022798
18:31
se6astian
search "Upgrade Path:" :)
18:32
Bertl
ctag: we will keep the Beta for a reasonable time and you will very likely be able to reuse the sensor
18:32
troy_s
se6astian: PS: Is crop factor relevant here for a motion picture camera?
18:32
ctag
Ah, excellent!
18:32
Bertl
there are no plans to shut down the Beta as long as somebody is interested
18:32
ctag
Awesome
18:33
troy_s
ctag: You have two of the most dedicated peeps on the planet here in se6astian and Bertl. I wouldn't suggest success is inevitable, but if anyone can pull it off, it is them.
18:34
ctag
I believe you. Having a working proof of concept when going into a crowdfunding situation is a big deal.
18:34
ctag
And that's what the Alpha is, correct?
18:35
troy_s
ctag: Both have amazing technical prowess that is only eclipsed by their even more incredible presence as people.
18:35
Bertl
troy_s: thanks for the flowers, we appreciate your time and dedication as well!
18:35
troy_s
ctag: Alpha was the shoebox camera.
18:36
se6astian
troy_s: crofactor, why not?
18:37
se6astian
and thanks for the kind words as well :D
18:37
troy_s
se6astian: Because there is no real crop factor in cinema..
18:37
troy_s
se6astian: Sense? Super35 is the base really. 1.0 as it were.
18:40
troy_s
(AKA the cinema aesthetic was built on the back of vertical Super35, not horizontal VistaVision.)
18:41
aombk
people find the campaign not clear and mysterious in blogs comments
18:41
ctag
Oh man, Apertux and Vanitas, this website is full of cool stuff.
18:41
ctag
I'm gonna have to come back after class and read up.
18:41
se6astian
I guess if we listed a crop factor difference between CVM12000 and KAC12040 where CMV12000 is 1.0 that would have confused people a lot
18:42
Bertl
aombk: please check the FAQ section and let us know what you think. thanks in advance!
18:44
Bertl
I think we also got rid of the ApertusWeb nicks by adding a nick field to the web client ... if somebody can test this, it would be appreciated.
18:45
troy_s
se6astian: Sure. I worry that some folks might see the full frame sensor as cropped.
18:45
aombk
Bertl: i already backed the camera. i am just reporting peoples reaction. and i reply to them sometimes
18:45
troy_s
se6astian: Not a big deal. Always loathed the whole “crop factor” language as you know.
18:46
Bertl
aombk: that is very much appreciated and I was serious about 'checking' it for unclear or confusing information
18:46
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18:46
Bertl
it is very hard for somebody who is as deeply involved in the project as se6astian and myself to figure out what folks will understand and what needs to be explained in more detail
18:47
aombk
ok i misunderstood
18:48
ChanServ
18:55
Bertl
no problem
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alban_
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19:00
Bertl
it seems we moved to the second place on indiegogo (trend view)
19:02
dmjweb
are there many places reporting on this yet?
19:02
dmjweb
have press releases been sent?
19:02
Bertl
not bad for the first 10 hours I guess
19:02
Bertl
yes, there have been a numnber of press updates featuring the campaign, but as usual, any additional PR is welcome
19:07
aombk
the faq is ok
19:07
aombk
but there is a flow i think in the campaign
19:07
aombk
flaw
19:08
Bertl
I'm pretty sure we have and will make many mistakes, after all it is the first time and we're just human :)
19:42
aombk
is the campaign video as informative about beta as it should be?
19:42
Bertl
we hope so, check it out and tell us your opinion?
19:49
aombk
no technical info about beta is given on the video
19:49
aombk
it talks about the community
19:52
Bertl
ah, technical information, well, that is probably best communicated via tables and diagrams (as we have on the crowd funding web page)
19:53
dmjweb
Yeah, the video should be the "big idea" the basic concept, why it matters, and how you can trust the creators
19:54
dmjweb
enough detail to understand the "what" but not enough to distract from why it matters
19:59
se6astian
latest campaign stats: 8,435 unique visitors so far today
19:59
se6astian
11,282 pageviews
20:00
dmjweb
super35 sensor and global shutter are both mentioned
20:00
dmjweb
not sure if 4K and RAW are
20:00
dmjweb
but all that is in an infographic right below
20:09
aombk
so Bertl, what is considered low bandwidth data so as to not need an external recording device?
20:14
Bertl
the internal microSD can sustain 50MB/s bandwidth and we get the same for the external microSD
20:15
Bertl
that is megabyte/s, you also get at least half a gigabit over network
20:15
aombk
so you tested and got about these numbers? nice
20:15
danieel
left the channel
20:16
Bertl
correct, the gigabit ethernet can achieve higher rates with FPGA support (offloading)
20:16
Bertl
and there is also the USB-OTG, which we didn't really test yet
20:16
rdroro
joined the channel
20:17
Bertl
welcome rdroro!
20:17
rdroro
Hi Bertl!
20:22
rdroro
I've just found Apertus projects and its campagn on Indiegogo
20:22
Bertl
great! do you like it?
20:23
rdroro
It's looks interesting !
20:23
Bertl
any questions we can answer for you?
20:23
Bertl
(preferably ones not already covered by the FAQ or campaign page :)
20:24
danieel
joined the channel
20:26
rdroro
No it's good for now ! I'm checking the Apertus Github !
20:27
troy_s
Bertl: You uh... haven't filled out your IndieGoGo credentials. Might want to do that. ;)
20:28
Bertl
I'm trying since three days to get my email confirmed, but indigogo is not able to get that done and the links I get do not work
20:29
Bertl
but it is work in progress, I hope :)
20:37
aombk
seems that mft is not that popular
20:40
Bertl
yes, but we kind of expected that from the opinion poll anyways ... nevertheless, I'm curious how it will rank at the end
20:42
rdroro
What is "mft" ?
20:42
troy_s
Bertl: Wouldn't be surprised if it ends up with same factors
20:42
troy_s
rdroro: Micro Four Thirds
20:43
Bertl
rdroro: the format of the KAC sensor
20:44
rdroro
Ok, thanks for the explanation
20:44
Bertl
you're welcome!
20:53
skinkie
Bertl: will you be at the IBC again as well?
20:54
Bertl
nope, not this time, low budget, and somebody has to work on the beta :)
20:54
giantpt
left the channel
20:54
alexML
here's a question for you guys: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg128109#msg128109
20:56
Bertl
indeed, I presume the MLV codec is a magic lantern raw format?
20:57
alexML
yes
20:57
Bertl
I also presume that it is open and well documented, yes?
20:58
alexML
it's documented here: www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7122
20:58
Bertl
in which case, I do not see any problems supporting it on the Beta
20:58
alexML
how well... I can't be the judge :P
20:58
alexML
ffmpeg already has some early support for it
21:01
Seku
joined the channel
21:03
aombk_
joined the channel
21:04
skinkie
Could this be actually implemented in the FPGA itself?
21:05
skinkie
alexML: what was the rationale to build this format?
21:06
aombk
left the channel
21:06
aombk_
changed nick to: aombk
21:06
Bertl
I presume it is more a wrapper format like DNG (haven't looked into it yet)
21:06
skinkie
i some questions of mine are answered by the "why a custom format" :P
21:08
Seku
hello, newb here. love that you went crowdsourcing and thinking of getting an s35 (just a magic lantern hobbyist tho). cinema-dng would surely sound impressive :D
21:09
Bertl
welcome Seku! If you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask!
21:12
Seku
thanks Bertl :) not many questionsn as of yet, im just wondering why the cmv12000 is indicated at 10 stops dynamic range :D
21:13
Seku
the cion and bm4k seem to use the same chip but advertise 12-ish stops. is the axiom more conservative in shadow noise? other implications?
21:14
Bertl
well, we are probably more honest about the stats, but you can expand the dynamic range with HDR modes
21:17
alexML
do you guys have some test images (DNG) with this sensor?
21:17
Seku
im a bit conservative about HDR :D
21:17
alexML
I can do some noise analysis, plot SNR curves
21:18
Bertl
yes, there is the xmas image from last year :)
21:18
Bertl
but I wouldn't consider it representative, we had no real FPN correction back then
21:18
alexML
I need two test images of the same static scene, because I'll subtract them to keep only the random noise part
21:19
Seku
mh, so i guess its ISO is also similar to the other cameras using the same sensor? aka 400-800ish
21:19
alexML
any out-of-focus HDR scene should do the trick (so it covers both highlights, shadows and midtones)
21:19
alexML
more details about the procedure: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.msg117955#msg117955
21:20
Bertl
I'm sure se6astian can take a few snapshots after he returns from IBC if you tell him what to do
21:20
alexML
cool
21:20
Seku
oh youre THAT alex... sorry for not noticing. please accept random deals of great gratitude :)
21:20
Bertl
a snap can be taken via ssh, so that's rather simple :)
21:20
alexML
thanks
21:21
Seku
ssh to the cam? heh
21:23
Bertl
yep, on the Alpha, everything can be done via ssh, and it helped a lot during development/testing to be able to use shell scripts :)
21:23
Seku
i love that line of though
21:23
alexML
why not? Canon used a shell console too, it's just hidden :P
21:23
Seku
*thought
21:24
Bertl
yeah, but it won't be hidden on AXIOM, ever! :)
21:24
Seku
thats why im really interested in the axiom ... no hidden features ... and global shutter at that
21:25
aombk
so the camera will have vulnerabilities and it will be hackable
21:25
Bertl
you can enable SE-linux :)
21:25
Seku
se-linux? xD
21:26
aombk
i better already register the domain apertus-exploits.net
21:26
ludidonkihot
joined the channel
21:26
rdroro
left the channel
21:27
Bertl
welcome ludidonkihot!
21:27
aombk
wireless ddos attacks to cinematographers
21:27
philippej
joined the channel
21:28
Seku
btw, why go the strange route of multiple hdmi for 4k raw? and not just go to a pci-e or usb3 or thunderbolt ssd?
21:29
aombk
ok after alpha and beta, i suggest you rename gamma to axiom nightly and add great low light capabilities
21:29
Bertl
Seku: the basic interface is several (up to 20) differential pairs, the hdmi interface is just one I/O shield (we have to start somewhere) and HDMI is already known to us, as we implemented a free version for the alpha
21:29
Seku
aombk, dunno if the sensor can follow :D
21:30
Bertl
USB3 is a nightmare (at least to me) but it shouldn't be a technical problem
21:30
Bertl
PCIe is also an option but requires dedicated serdes hardware which is not available without addon
21:30
Seku
no need for usb3 really. s-ata3 should do nicely enough. but nice to hear there are other options :D
21:31
aombk
too bad without rolling shutter we wont be able to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKXOucXB4a8
21:32
Seku
i think one of the BM-s biggest perks is to SSD drives. keeps storage cheap. well, relatively. Samsung EVOs arent expensive . external HD recorders are :D
21:32
Bertl
aombk: maybe get the KAC then too, it can switch between rolling and global shutter
21:33
Seku
aombk, im just a silly hobbyist with too much time on his hands... i film a lot of handheld stuff ... and deshaking rolling shutter is a nightmare.
21:33
Bertl
Seku: yes, SATA will probably be our preference when we get to the 'recording' part
21:34
Seku
will the beat really look like the product renders btw? i mean slr format-ish
21:34
Seku
*beta
21:35
Bertl
there will be two options, a skeletal version for hackers (easy access to everything)
21:36
Bertl
and the version you basically see in the renderings
21:36
aombk
Bertl: nice idea!
21:36
Bertl
but we will try to improve it where necessary during development
21:36
ludidonkihot
Congrats guys, campaign is selling cameras at rate "1 camera per 5 minutes" :D
21:37
Bertl
thanks!
21:38
Seku
well, add me to that. just ordered an s35
21:39
Bertl
great! thanks!
21:40
Seku
i believe in opensource :) this is just the first version of the cam, and im looking forward to the 5k varieties later
21:40
Seku
but im a sucker for global shutter, cant help it
21:40
Bertl
yes, I do not understand why somebody would want a rolling shutter either, but from the technical PoV it has some advantages
21:41
Seku
dynamic range and iso sensitivity i presume
21:41
Bertl
for example you can get a way higher SNR with a rolling shutter
21:41
Bertl
because the data doesn't 'hang around' degrading in the sensor
21:42
Seku
yeah. but i still have that silly dream that one day i can take pictures and film at the same time\
21:42
Seku
(fast shutter, raw)
21:42
Seku
and then add motion blur as needed in post
21:43
Bertl
like 1000 FPS and then post processing the shutter angle
21:43
Seku
was thinking at 25/50 fps for starters with fast shutter :D
21:44
Seku
btw, where are you guys based? i read about europe, but where?
21:44
Bertl
well, you can do that with the Beta then :)
21:44
Seku
thats the plan :D
21:44
CoolSpecter
joined the channel
21:44
CoolSpecter
hi everyone. does anyone know how long the battery life is on this camera?
21:45
Bertl
Seku: there is a map of all involved folks ... sebastian an me are located in Austria
21:45
Seku
as its the beta, i presume it depends a lot on the battery pack you connect it to
21:45
Bertl
Welcome CoolSpecter!
21:45
CoolSpecter
thanks
21:45
Seku
ah, great, i can switch to german at leisure then
21:45
Bertl
CoolSpecter: the battery life will depend on the battery you use
21:45
CoolSpecter
oh ok so its not coming with a battery
21:45
Seku
luxembourg here, german 2nd language, english 4th :)
21:46
Bertl
CoolSpecter: and the power consumption will depend on the features you enable
21:46
CoolSpecter
i see
21:47
Bertl
we will see, if we find a suitable battery pack, we might integrate it
21:47
Bertl
(or at least make it an option)
21:47
Seku
its a beta after all :D
21:48
Seku
im looking forward especially how you will manage fixed pattern noise and color science... as those seem to be most difficult on that sensor
21:48
Bertl
we will definitely support a wide input range, so utilizing whatever is available shouldn't be a problem
21:48
Bertl
Seku: you don't say :) troy_s can sing a song about that :)
21:49
Seku
well ill be a difficult customer, coming from canon raw xD
21:49
CoolSpecter
this would be my first camera
21:49
Seku
i think for postproduction one of the most important things is to have flawless import into resolve (black level, color balance)
21:50
CoolSpecter
it would be nice to learn on a bare bones system first
21:50
Seku
most buyers of the cam will prolly process RAW that way (i will)
21:51
Bertl
CoolSpecter: I can assure you, you will learn a lot with the Beta (if you are serious about learning stuff that is)
21:51
Seku
sighs
21:51
Seku
its a long road. and i havent even started my journey (taking the easy way with canon-specific LUTs and Kodak Luts)
21:52
Seku
is layz
21:53
Seku
btw, please please implement something like a live RGB histogram based on RAW values
21:54
CoolSpecter
I sure am, I have an interview at USC for the Stark program next month. If I get in ill be sure to use this camera to impress classmates
21:54
Seku
and not some silly jpeg like canon does
21:54
Bertl
Seku: we have a wiki describing certain 'interesting' features, maybe add information there?
21:55
Seku
great, i sure will. but im a bit leery to do so... im just a hobbyist with no technical knowledge at all :)
21:55
philippej
left the channel
21:55
CoolSpecter
so when you compare this camera to the black magic 4k and the GH 4 what aspects does it hold over them?
21:56
Bertl
Seku: I don't think the technical knowledge matters much, it is more to figure out what makes sense and what not
21:57
Seku
mhhh... theres 2 reasons why i bought into this project
21:57
Bertl
CoolSpecter: first, it is the only camera where you can do whatever you like, run your programs on it, use all features without modifications and update the firmwar by simply swapping an SD card
21:57
Seku
open source, and global shutter
21:57
Seku
i hope that someday , in a way, it can replace my dslr :)
21:57
Seku
no more need to take pictures, just get stuff from the DNGs
21:57
Seku
thats still far fetched, but i like to believe that idea
21:57
CoolSpecter
im not a programmer, but what kinds of programs are you talking about?
21:58
Seku
CoolSpecter, all programs the community comes up with
21:59
CoolSpecter
oh ok
21:59
derWalter
left the channel
21:59
Bertl
whatever you can imagine and what fits hardware wise, just to give a (maybe silly) example, you can use it as web cam and have your own web page served on the camera, including some fancy calculations on the image
21:59
Seku
like flickerless timelapses for instance
21:59
CoolSpecter
aah
21:59
Bertl
you can program it to do realtime image warping or motion detection as well
21:59
Seku
one could do fancy stuff with long-time exposures too, expanding dynamic range... HDR
22:00
Seku
IR would sound fancy too :D
22:00
Seku
thats why i invested... people will come up with lots crazier ideas than i do
22:00
Bertl
yes, the CMV is very sensitive in the IR range as well
22:00
Seku
and ... global shutter?
22:00
Seku
*!
22:00
CoolSpecter
any chance there could be a modification to make it a 3d camera?
22:00
Bertl
you just need to remove the IR/UV cutoff
22:01
Bertl
there is a stereovision project which probably will use the AXIOM Beta
22:01
Seku
btw, is there any anti aliasing filter?
22:02
Seku
CoolSpecter, for 3D you need 2 cameras... to do stuff right
22:02
CoolSpecter
right. so if I got two of these cameras, and had them work in sync. and placed them at the correct angles... we could program them to do that right?
22:02
Seku
although (personally) i believe 3D to be a fad... i would rather invest into oculus rift-ish stuff
22:02
Bertl
Seku: we didn't use any anti aliasing filters yet, but it is definitely an option
22:03
Bertl
CoolSpecter: definitely
22:03
Seku
Bertl, @4k it doesnt really seem necessary, but im looking forward to 5k sensors downsampling to 4k. would make most AA filters useless :)
22:03
Bertl
the axiom Beta is quite small, so you could get the correct eye distance by simply putting them side by side
22:03
CoolSpecter
that just sold me
22:04
Bertl
great!
22:04
Seku
the advantage with an opensource cam, is that someone talented can write genlocking / syncing firmware to 2 cams for 3d
22:04
Seku
if someone writes it :)
22:05
Bertl
actually syncing two cams is rather trivial
22:05
CoolSpecter
are there any warranties? also, If I do the 350 kickstarter will I only get 50% off one camera, or multiple cameras?
22:05
Seku
(i would be interested in timecode for synching sound)m *cough cough*
22:05
Bertl
the CMV12k supports a 'frame request' so just triggering that at both cameras is enough
22:05
Seku
buy 2 . get 2. i presume
22:05
Bertl
and yes, we plan to support timecodes as well
22:08
Seku
thats great... good reason for em to upgrade to sounddevices
22:09
Seku
btw, i was in austria just a month ago, damn if i had known :)
22:10
Bertl
there will be another chance, I guess
22:10
Seku
its not far away. only 4 hours driving or so. autobahns are fast.
22:11
Seku
sighs
22:12
Seku
need to buy me some new lenses now. only got fullframes :)
22:12
Seku
some declicked samyangs prolly
22:13
Seku
btw, any screen on the axiom? focus-peaking, zoom? etc.
22:13
Bertl
I'm sure there will be sooner or later
22:14
Seku
no problem i guess, i can just use a cheap peaking monitor too.
22:14
Seku
itll be fun.
22:15
Seku
is there any forum/disussion board planned for funding members?
22:15
Bertl
we have talked about a forum, yes, but it hasen't taken shape yet ... I'm sure if there is some demand, it will
22:16
Bertl
for now there are a number of mailing lists and of course the IRC channel
22:16
Seku
ill join the lists to then, but i am partial to irc ... theres nothign mroe direct ... except direct talk :)
22:17
CoolSpecter
its just the camera, it doesnt come with internal audio doees it?
22:18
Bertl
no audio planned on the main board, but it would be easy to add on one of the shields, we'll see
22:18
CoolSpecter
ah
22:18
Bertl
or you can simply use some of those cheap USB audio devices :)
22:19
Seku
mh, as long as there-s timecode *hint hint* everyyhings fine
22:19
Seku
most on-cam audio is hideous anywaz :D
22:19
CoolSpecter
i know, just thought id ask
22:19
Seku
i think with the gamma camera therell be audio. but... its just a beta cam after all
22:20
Bertl
it is not just a beta cam, it is 'The Beta Cam' :)
22:20
Seku
just a beta cam... with global shutter *hazy eyes*
22:21
Seku
im really lookling forward to sata3 tho. got some 3 tera of SSDs lying around xD
22:21
Bertl
send us some for testing ...
22:21
Seku
you need some?
22:22
Seku
only samsung EVOS tho
22:22
Bertl
we can always make good use of hardware and SSDs (especially reasonably fast ones) are always expensive
22:22
intracube
hi :)
22:22
Bertl
hello intracube!
22:22
Seku
hi intracube :)
22:22
intracube
hello Bertl, Seku
22:24
CoolSpecter
oh yeah, i forgot to ask what your intention was as far as what it can save to? ssd's?
22:24
Bertl
Seku: so if you're serious, I can give you a shipping address, and we'll make sure that you get mentioned as contributor
22:25
Seku
sure why not... actually i bought the drive to have 2 tb total space for davinci RAW projects... but i guess you guys can use it better
22:25
Bertl
CoolSpecter: the base system has a single microSD slot plus an option for a two more microSD via PMOD
22:25
CoolSpecter
excellent
22:26
Bertl
they can sustain up to 50MByte/s for internal and extern cards
22:26
Bertl
the external cards share the bandwidth
22:26
Seku
btw, what are most users targeting? prores? dhxnd?
22:27
Seku
is there some interest in raw? then its more like 300 mbyte/sec i presume
22:27
Bertl
I guess I have to delegate this question to the folks here on the channel (or the users in general)
22:27
Bertl
movie makers are mostly interested in uncompressed, unaltered raw
22:27
intracube
quick question about the campaign; for the €300/€350 options, does it mean first in line for the beta
22:27
Seku
no wonder :D
22:28
Bertl
and yes, at 4k, the bandwidth is huge
22:28
intracube
with no commitment to buy?
22:28
Bertl
correct
22:28
intracube
Bertl: thanks
22:28
Seku
im used to 100mbyte/sec ML raws, so i know what im getting into :D
22:28
Bertl
intracube: and if you decide to buy, you get it at half the price
22:28
intracube
yup, cool :)
22:29
Seku
if i dont hoave to remove FPN, reencode from MLV to cinema DNG, and nice timecode metadata... thatd be worh ti
22:29
alexML
I'm happy to help with FPN correction, since I'm also researching it for ML
22:29
Bertl
excellent!
22:30
intracube
just have to see how my bank balance is and how adventurous I feel nearer the time :P
22:30
Seku
alexML, i didnt mean to complain at all, im incredibly humbled by what you did on ML
22:30
Seku
its the raeson i upgraded from 5dmk2 to mk3
22:31
alexML
hehe, FPN is Canon's weakness, not ML's
22:31
Bertl
alexML: so there might be more overlaps between ML and AXIOM than we imagined when we made the promotional video :)
22:31
Seku
right now im going through an osx mlv - dng workflow, and do the rest on a windows workstation
22:32
Bertl
alexML: glad that we got in contact!
22:32
alexML
yeah, once the cameras get out in the wild, I'm sure there will be more overlaps
22:32
alexML
btw, g3gg0 is also ready to help you with implementing the MLV format
22:32
Seku
:O
22:32
Seku
im glad i bought in
22:34
ApertusWeb9
Hi guys, amazing campaign! Congrats. 2 quick questions: Does the 300/350EUR perk give us chance to change choice of sensor after campaign ? also if for any (e.g. budget) reason I don't take the beta, do i still have the same upgrade to gama advantages ?
22:35
Seku
mhh... exciting times :D
22:36
Seku
sorry, dont know the answers to that question .
22:39
se6astian
Hi ApertusWeb9, if you dont own a Beta there is nothing to upgrade to a Gamma - the Upgrade Path is actually meaning to reuse the parts from the Beta
22:39
CoolSpecter
so the campaign is for the axiom beta... what about the alpha and gamma models? whats the difference if you had to sum it up in a couple sentences?
22:40
se6astian
changing of sensor later on is OK if it will not become the norm as it will make it impossible for us to estimate production volume if everyone changes his components :)
22:40
se6astian
CoolSpecter: We even made a table and infographic just to explain that differences :)
22:40
se6astian
https://apertus.org/axiom
22:40
CoolSpecter
oh thx
22:41
se6astian
had no time to add the beta camera image to the table yet
22:41
se6astian
will take care of that tomorrow :)
22:42
CoolSpecter
i see, so the gamma is like an upgrade to the beta... will there be a campaign for the gamma too?
22:43
Bertl
maybe, we'll see how the Beta does and what we learn from that
22:44
se6astian
time for bed for me
22:44
se6astian
good night!
22:44
Bertl
the Beta is the result from feedback and experience with the Proof of Concept Alpha prototype, so it will be similar with the Gamma and Beta I guess
22:44
CoolSpecter
ah. so the gamma is up there as the completed vision of your camera. as a goal point perhaps.
22:44
Seku
look at it like this : axiom is an empty drawing board.
22:45
Seku
beta was great enough to get me hooked
22:45
Seku
but now that i know alex and greggo are getting on board... OH damn
22:45
Seku
this will be fun times
22:47
Seku
colorscience will be most interesting. canon has done great as usual, panasonic seems to be huge strides lately
22:47
Seku
too bad their varicam is out of reach
22:47
Bertl
I think the open source community can easily do better
22:48
Seku
i think so too. especially after speaking with soem crazy people doing argylcms or other color related stuff
22:51
Seku
this will be most beneficial
22:51
Seku
too bad stuff like davinci isnt available on linux... difficult to stay in a complete open srouce environment
22:53
Bertl
we'll get there sooner or later ...
22:53
Seku
mhh... the 35mm seems a lot more popular than the beta 3/4 :D
22:55
dmjweb
what's the plan for when the perks sell out?
22:56
Bertl
which ones?
22:57
dmjweb
the Camera perks
22:58
Bertl
I guess we'll add some more then, in batches
22:59
Bertl
they might not ship at the same time, but they will certainly help reducing the price further
23:00
Seku
i might drive to austria to get mine xD
23:01
Seku
hrmf... that cam might actually be a good reason to upgrade my home thaeater from 2k to 4k
23:01
Seku
my computer also only runs at 2.5k ... this will be fun
23:02
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
23:06
ApertusWeb9
left the channel
23:10
anton
joined the channel
23:10
tyrone_
Bertl: small question since when there is the picozed? i was just suprised there is a new product :-)
23:12
Seku
heh, lots of magic lantern vets in here. i like.
23:14
anton
hiya, go apertus go! small bit of publicity (310 views only, but still) http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/11242/axiom-beta-4k-raw-opensource-crowdfunding-started
23:18
anton
btw the promo video - it was short in HDR was it?
23:18
anton
I mean the promo video was not shot in HDR was it?
23:22
Bertl
tyrone_: no idea, I just read the specs myself a few minutes ago!
23:22
Bertl
they had a 10/20 version announced some time ago, but the new 15/30 options look very interesting
23:24
Bertl
anton: no, as far I know it wasn't
23:25
Bertl
but se6astian will be able to give you all the details when he wakes up
23:26
Bertl
anton: and thanks for the publicity! we appreciate it!
23:28
Bertl
regarding the question in the thread "How about using email and/or skype" ... email is fine, the team can be reached there as well and we make sure to answer all email we get ASAP
23:28
Bertl
Skype is too proprietary for my taste, but IIRC, se6astian is willing to use it if necessary :)
23:29
Seku
i think theres a need for a forumtho. im no forum guy, but i think lots of people are :)
23:29
Seku
ii mean a dedicated oen to the beta
23:30
tyrone_
Bertl: i just wanted to see what are the specs of the microzed and tada... picozed.... :-) ... press release 3.09.2014 so just out of the box...
23:30
Bertl
Seku: noted. we'll get there, just not right now
23:30
Bertl
tyrone_: did you find the measurements? I was looking but I couldn't find them
23:31
Bertl
tyrone_: it looks like it should be about the same size as the microzed though
23:31
Bertl
(judging from the connectors used there)
23:32
intracube
can anyone confirm what the fps should be for the test footage? the ungraded .mxf shows as 29.97 but motion seems a bit fast
23:32
intracube
looks like it was originally shot either 24 or 25?
23:32
CoolSpecter
left the channel
23:33
intracube
is doing some grading on it :)
23:33
Bertl
personally I'd say it was 30 FPS or 25 FPS, because the recorder we used doesn't support 24 FPS well, the default was certainly 30 FPS
23:33
Bertl
(i.e. that was the first resolution we got to work after we discovered that 60 FPS is not understood by the recorders available to us :)
23:33
Seku
heh
23:33
tyrone_
Bertl: the size i couldn't find but when you see the pics of the microsed 7020 and the picozed 7020 it looks the same just no ethernet and usb... so it should be the same.... the prices i find is fair the zynq 7030 is just 399$ but with only 4 GTX Trancievers
23:34
intracube
Bertl: ah ok. I'll try encoding the whole vid at 25 and see what the motion looks like
23:35
Bertl
intracube: but the shutter angle might be completely off, so don't let that fool you
23:36
Bertl
tyrone_: yeah, so maybe we do a picozed version of the beta as stretchgoal or something like that ...
23:37
Bertl
I guess the 7015 version would be preferable though
23:38
tyrone_
Bertl: or plan it right away with it and make a small suprise :-)
23:38
Seku
ah there are stretch goals?
23:38
Bertl
we'll see if we get there :)
23:39
tyrone_
Bertl: 7015 is 299$ that's sweet :-)
23:39
Seku
grins
23:39
Seku
it will be a house plenty of toys anyway
23:39
dmjweb
7030 looks sweet
23:40
Seku
a part not to be underestimated will prolly be to get raws nicely into resolve.
23:40
Seku
blacklevel / metadata
23:41
Bertl
would that work fine with the MLV format for example?
23:41
Seku
depends on the cinemaDNG converters i presume
23:41
Bertl
okay, so cinemaDNG would still be preferable?
23:42
Seku
for now theres imho only 2 solutions for MLV to cinemadng > magicRAW and raw2dng by chmee
23:44
Seku
im not knowledgeable at all..,. but cinemaDNG sounds the way to go, as it allows to be imported straight into resolve, and sync up with audio. BUT afaik FCPXs and premieres import of cinemaDNG leave a lot to be desired, mind you, i dint use premiere or FCPx... just some threads i read >&
23:44
tyrone_
dmjweb: i like ti too :-)
23:46
intracube
25% of goal already!
23:46
Seku
going raw is the correct but stony way :D
23:50
Seku
btw, for non-raw, wouldnt it be possible to use some ff-mbc? for prores and the like
23:52
Seku
dont know about licenses tho
23:53
Bertl
regardless of licensing issues, you could still add those yourself for private purposes, unless you live in a coutry which puts copyright claims above personal freedom :)
23:54
Seku
we all do, i guess. but youre right. it puts a smirky grin on my face, just imagining to compile prores support just for mylsef on the cam
23:55
Seku
not that i want to use prores, but still :D
23:55
anton
might be off topic today.. I've long been thinking of having a handheld rig for my GH3 - {camera, NP battery, monitor, quick release plate}; maybe rails and FF; I've got 0 experience with this so might be compeletely off with my wish.. the idea was fit it nicely into a shoulder bag meant for a big DSLR, didn't want a big heavy cage if possible; I'm posting it here in case you may find it at least a tiny bit inspirational when designin
23:55
anton
here are some sketches http://s02.radikal.ru/i175/1409/c9/1ca9c2ffe77e.jpg
23:56
TheOne
joined the channel
23:57
Seku
anton : for handheld, this seems most optimal to me : http://store.zacuto.com/marauder/
23:57
Seku
if you dont plan on going shoulder
23:58
Seku
no rails, FF on that tho
00:02
Bertl
welcome TheOne!
00:03
TheOne
left the channel
00:05
Samuel
joined the channel
00:05
Seku
heh, 2nd batch?
00:05
anton
Seku, Marauder is great - but I wanted my whole rig to go on top of Marauder or tripod if needed; I want a pico rig to fit completely into a photo bag - basically a way to attach monitor to the back of the camera and a battery somewhere bellow the camera - to make it very compact, foldable; and extra attachment points on the camera body might be a great help - if the body is metallic of course; and because attachment points can help I
00:05
anton
with the developers of Axiom - in case they find it sensible.. in a way the body might be its own small cage - if it is already strong enough anyway
00:07
Seku
i see where you are getting at. id love to have something similar, but its only a beta cam too :D
00:09
Seku
i hope that somehow theyll be able to keep the core light, and maybe outsource raw to SDI or SSD ... global shutter will allow for cropping or stabilisng :D
00:09
Bertl
welcome Samuel!
00:10
CoolSpecter
joined the channel
00:10
Seku
but frankly my opinions arent important... im not the core consumer (im just a silly hobbyist who likes stuff)
00:12
anton
"im just a silly hobbyist who likes stuff" he-he, me too - but then the project needs beta testers, that could as well be us :)
00:13
Seku
i ordered a cam, so ill be a tester :D
00:14
Seku
so much looking forward to it. and random silly stares
00:16
Samuel
Bertl: hi, and hi to all
00:17
Seku
hiyas
00:18
Bertl
Samuel: if you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask, especially if they are AXIOM Beta related :)
00:19
Samuel
Bertl: thank you, I'm more of an linux-audio guy, but I love open hardware
00:19
Seku
pokes puise-audio for fun
00:20
Bertl
Samuel: so what about running pulse-audio or jack on the AXIOM Beta?
00:20
Samuel
does it have any audio i/o ?
00:21
Seku
(to me it really depends on the ADCs implemented tho)
00:21
Bertl
not yet, but there is USB and two options for I/O shields
00:21
Bertl
so plenty of potential even for high end audio freaks
00:22
Samuel
he he
00:22
Seku
you dont know how crazy we high end audio freaks actually are willing to go :D
00:22
Samuel
Seku: really good question
00:22
CoolSpecter
left the channel
00:23
Seku
(home theater at home, with DIYed 4-way speakesr, active XO, and some fancy DACs xD)
00:24
Seku
mh, i lied actually.. theyre not fancy... sabre32 DACS
00:24
Seku
seems theyre used in normal hardware nowadays
00:24
anton
Bertl - the ventilation - it's not going to blow dust onto the sensor is it?
00:24
Samuel
Seku: (small home studio with RME cards and SSL converters, starting to DIY my own mic pres)
00:25
anton
somehow all the photo cams I've seen looked more or less sealed
00:25
Seku
your own mic pres? thats above my level. nice!
00:25
Samuel
Seku: no, not designed, i'm just a solder monkey
00:26
Bertl
anton: I don't think so, the sensor is in direct touch with the lens mount, which basically seals it from the surrounding arflow
00:26
Seku
same here... running Linkwitz Orions, and a Twisted Pear Sabre Dac
00:27
Samuel
Bertl: how hard would it be to plug an usb soundcard and have it working with, say, jackd?
00:27
Seku
being a copycat is good enough for me :)
00:27
Samuel
Seku: nice
00:27
Bertl
anton: we already did that on the alpha, and despite the fact that the alpha lens mount had two holes, we didn't get any dust onto the sensor
00:28
Bertl
Samuel: that's kind of the question I was hoping you could answer ... the plugging part is easy, just get an USB-OTG adapter (micro USB to USB receptacle) and plug in a soundcard of your choice
00:28
Bertl
then you probably have to get the sound driver loaded (for the linux kernel) and an arm version of jackd running
00:29
Samuel
OK, so pretty easy
00:29
Bertl
we plan to go for arch linux on the AXIOM Beta, but we also used rapsian in a chroot on the Alpha, so there are several options
00:30
Seku
oh , arch. tricky :)
00:31
Bertl
I guess at some point there will be a special AXIOM tailored linux, but for now, we will see what works best
00:31
Samuel
OK, good to know, we just need a way to record all this synced and we have nice audio capabilities
00:31
Seku
personally, i dont care. ill just run a gentoo or arch VM.
00:32
Seku
but for gamma that should be difficult for casual users :D\
00:33
Bertl
there is no need to ever get down to the OS level on the Gamma, it will have some kind of GUI for controlling the camera (precisely for those casual users or folks who just want to use it as plain old camera :)
00:34
Seku
how boring :D
00:36
Seku
after a good laugh, bedtime... worktime bekkons in 6 hours
00:37
Samuel
As I don't know enough about cameras, how do people sync their sound to the images ? manually? I know there are sync soft, but is it the only way?
00:37
Seku
google timecode :)
00:38
Seku
naturally you can do it manually too (clapperboard) ... but i am lazy
00:40
Bertl
Samuel: I guess it is a mix of science, tradition and art :)
00:41
ctag
Samuel: I just clap? :D
00:42
Seku
(even if you use timecode to sync.... use a clapperboard too. makes you look professional. and your talents feel important. clapperboard is cheap, even if you dont use it)
00:42
ctag
Seku, See google has started shooting themselves in the foot. I half read it as "Google Timecode" as though it were a product of theirs.
00:42
Seku
coughs
00:42
Seku
never mind me
00:42
ctag
:P
00:42
Samuel
:-D
00:43
ctag
.. What's the symbol for adding two numbers together again?
00:43
Seku
+
00:43
ctag
Zing!
00:43
Seku
xD
00:44
Samuel
so the video part of the axiom would generate a timecode that I just need to sync to the audio. I'm just trying to understand the axiom workflow
00:44
Seku
i see this channel will be funny in the next years . ill stay
00:45
ctag
Samuel, unless there's something I don't know, it's the same as the RED cameras, our basic setup is separate video and audio, and a clapperboard to sync them and keep the tracks organized.
00:45
Seku
actually, timecode is on the audio part. the axiom woud need to generate a timecode audio track.... recorded by an at least 3 channel mixer (plis sterep)
00:45
ctag
It's a minimal amount of editing compared to other items :)
00:45
Seku
tjem synced in post
00:46
Seku
timeccode os a complex beast tho, lets leave that for late r:D
00:46
Seku
(you can ... google the different implementations)
00:47
Samuel
ok
00:47
Seku
i would love something like pluraleyes tho. but thats a bit far fetched. and expsinve
00:48
Samuel
I recorded the sound of an orchestra and had friends record footage from 6 or 9 cameras. And I know it was a nightmare to sync everything
00:48
Seku
or stitching a high-emd ADC board wih phantom power on top of the cam *coughs*
00:49
Samuel
and in the end he had to use non-linux tools to edit
00:49
Seku
audition?
00:50
Seku
mh, frankly, for the axiom... i doubt linux tools are ready
00:50
Seku
i will probably go davinci resolve
00:50
Seku
which means winblows or hackintosh
00:50
Samuel
well as far as I know it runs on linux
00:51
Seku
you can
00:51
Seku
but is it manageable
00:51
Seku
the only nice software i know on linux for video editing wouold be lightworks
00:51
ctag
Hrm
00:51
Seku
and thats editing... not working on video raws
00:51
ctag
I do with Linux had better video and audio editing software :-\
00:52
Seku
me too... but for me davinci lite is without competition , for now
00:53
Samuel
ctag: I don't know about video, but linux-audio does a nice job, at least for non-linear daw
00:54
ctag
I'll have to take your word for it x) I've been sticking with Audacity lately
00:55
Samuel
ctag: because not happy with the other tools?
00:55
ctag
Because needs are low right now :)
00:56
ctag
School's been keeping me away from my film crew, so I haven't been exploring video and audio tools for archlinux like I should be.
00:57
Samuel
ctag: ok
00:58
Bertl
school is important too ...
00:59
ctag
Yup :P
00:59
ctag
Still, I'm all abuzz
00:59
ctag
I only heard about the Apertus project a few days ago
00:59
ctag
And the Axiom Beta is enticingly close to our price range.