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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/04/10

Timezone: UTC


00:34
gcolburn
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00:36
troy_s
danieel: I have to ask: What is with the hate on?
00:37
troy_s
danieel: You seem to suffer from poopy-pants-itus. I mean you seemed like a reasonable and intelligent person a after being rehabilitated from an abhorrent troll, but man I don't get it.
00:38
troy_s
danieel: There are two scenarios: A) You are interested in the journey, wherever it goes or B) you aren't.
00:39
troy_s
danieel: So as far as I am concerned, for two peeps (se6astian and Bertl) that have done a hell of a lot with fsck all resources, I am rather shocked at the need to be sandpaper.
00:41
troy_s
(And apologies if it is just your medication)
00:46
intracube
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01:10
intracube
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04:54
gcolburn
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05:53
danieel
troy_s: i thought they are making a camera and they know the stuff.. but they just seem to be unable to deliver the thing
05:55
danieel
even the nofilmschool reported did not get the beta release - "ranted it will be a beta camera, which means that there will likely be bugs" ... but when i tell that BETA is used in other context, no.. they have to go with that name
05:56
danieel
*reporter
06:17
niemand
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niemand
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06:23
niemand
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06:34
niemand
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08:17
sasha_c
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08:28
Bertl
morning folks!
08:29
sasha_c
Morning Bertl :)
08:29
Bertl
I presume it is evening for you :)
08:30
Bertl
I hope you didn't mind me rewriting the article once again before release ...
08:30
sasha_c
Yes it's evening here in Sydney, but good morning to you nonetheless
08:30
sasha_c
No, not al all.
08:31
Bertl
did you like the result? everything fine?
08:31
sasha_c
Yes, it all looks great
08:32
sasha_c
My mind is going a little crazy editing so many documents at once though (Horizon 2020, FAQ's, Beta news releases)
08:32
Bertl
I can imagine. it definitely isn't an easy job, we couldn't see the article anymore when we were finished :)
08:33
sasha_c
Yeah, but the deadline is approaching and so much still needs to be done
08:35
Bertl
yes, kudos to all the folks working on those dry stuff!
08:38
se6astian
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08:38
Bertl
good morning se6astian!
08:40
Bertl
folks already start asking where they can pay for beta development ...
08:44
se6astian
good morning
08:44
se6astian
great :)
08:44
se6astian
full day of university events to film ahead for me
08:47
Bertl
film away :)
09:00
se6astian
we can consider if we want to reevaluate the idea to account for donations directly to us already ahead of the crowd funding campaign from now on
09:02
Bertl
I think that will screw up whatever crowdfunding we run, no?
09:03
Bertl
i.e. it would be better to get the crowd funding set up properly asap and tell the folks who want to get one personally as soon as it is available
09:37
jucar
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10:25
jucar
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11:38
se6astian
it would screw with perks and the order in which people would get their number in line
11:38
se6astian
but it would also lower the crowd funding target if we already received more donations beforehand
11:38
se6astian
plus fees we pay would be lower
11:40
se6astian
interesting results on the sensor poll after 234 votes cast
11:40
se6astian
75% want the CMV12000 so far
11:45
se6astian
the nofilmschool article facebook post has already been shared 103 times!
12:05
danieel
probably because they know BMD is using it?
12:05
danieel
and the CION from AJA
12:16
Bertl
it will be interesting to compare them on otherwise identical setups
12:17
Bertl
se6astian: I'm fine with any alternative/beforehand donation/contribution/etc we can do, as long as somebody handles the logistics :)
12:18
Bertl
the main question is, what happens with those contributions when the crowdfunding fails?
12:18
danieel
you have to deliver them
12:19
danieel
anyway it is not wise to go that route... even if it is very attractive to get money first. in reality it just complicates things, as those people wait longer and by time they start asking questions and eventually turn to negative
12:19
Bertl
yes, but the problem is, that e.g. paypal will charge twice in this case, unless you can 'refund' it (which only works within a certain time frame)
12:20
Bertl
I agree that a proper crowd funding ASAP is preferable
12:20
danieel
if you do not meet the time frame, you can refund as gift.. with smaller fees
12:20
sasha_c
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12:22
Bertl
one option that IMHO would be perfectly fine is to allow folks to 'donate' 350+ EUR right now, with no refund if the crowd funding doesn't happen, but with the same perk/benefit as the folks joining the crowdfunding
12:22
danieel
350 for what?
12:22
Bertl
for development
12:23
danieel
how much is wasted on development?
12:24
Bertl
I guess we can spend arbitrary sums on development if we have them available ... just improves the results
12:24
Bertl
more equippment, more testing, better QA ... etc
12:25
danieel
what i can suggest is to finish the development, get quotes per 100+ or what is minimal to have it in nice price and then crowdfund
12:25
Bertl
that we considered and decided against
12:26
danieel
then you end up like me with RiftUP which we currently run on indiegogo
12:26
Bertl
basically it is the oposite of what we want to do, i.e. we want to build a camera with the community
12:26
danieel
the price is high, so there is small interest, but with quantities we got the stuff a lot cheaper.. so at the end we made some money but havent sold much
12:26
danieel
i think your point is to get to as many users as possible
12:29
danieel
users/developers
12:30
danieel
i think the nofilmschool made a lot of mistakes in undestanding what is going on... as you are releasing a development tool, not the camera
12:33
danieel
the responses are in same fashion under your annoucement.. so even the users did not get it correctly
12:33
Bertl
@RiftUP! nice, it is basically a HDMI monitor with a 5.9" screen, yes?
12:34
danieel
yes
12:34
Bertl
what frame rates does it support?
12:34
Bertl
ah, 60Hz it seems?
12:34
danieel
yes
12:35
Bertl
and each eye sees only half of the screen or?
12:36
danieel
there are "crazy" people who actually use 2 screens to overcome that factor, but normally you use it in split view
12:38
Bertl
so you are basically competing with the oculus rift folks and their DK2?
12:38
danieel
i am not competing... just offering an upgrade path for the outdated DK1
12:39
danieel
there are some possibilities to supply stuff to startups.. but I doubt it will catch on.. it is not my primary market
12:41
Bertl
so why not work together with the oculus folks?
12:44
danieel
they have already their solution
12:44
Bertl
but your pages claim to be better, cheaper, etc
12:44
Bertl
maybe I'm missing the obvious here
12:45
danieel
better resolution, the screen is cheaper yes.. but we have only the upgrade pieces, not the whole headset
12:46
danieel
and dk2 is implementing some positional tracking, which was not on dk1
12:46
danieel
it is improvement in the most visible spot (the screen) and there we end.
12:47
Bertl
well, congrats! it seems like a very successful campain.
12:47
danieel
thanks..
12:48
Bertl
may I ask where you get the panel?
12:48
danieel
but if you see the 70 from 60k potential market (that many DK1s) were sold, it is not so great :)
12:48
danieel
directly at Sharp
12:48
Bertl
still 17 days to go :)
12:49
Bertl
do you know (and not mind sharing) what they charge for the panel at small quantities (10-100)?
12:49
danieel
you can get it on ebay as replacement piece, but the price is insane there
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gcolburn_
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13:34
se6astian
hi gabe
13:35
se6astian
latest visitor stats for today: 806 unique visitors with 1684 pageviews
13:46
se6astian
time to go home
13:46
se6astian
see you
13:46
se6astian
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13:51
gcolburn_
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14:48
gcolburn
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14:53
se6astian
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15:03
Bertl
off for a nap .. bbl
15:19
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15:59
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16:24
niemand
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16:38
Bertl
back now ...
16:59
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17:00
troy_s
Bertl: New sensor assembly?
17:01
Bertl
hmm?
17:02
troy_s
Bertl / se6astian The reason a filmy group of folks want that sensor is strictly because it matches super35's aesthetic I wager.
17:02
Bertl
yes, might be a good reason
17:02
troy_s
It is a no brainer that folks keen on such a camera are interested in the larger sensor due to aesthetics.
17:03
troy_s
I will bet you a few bottles of beer that if you put up âwhyâ and offered âaestheticâ etc.
17:03
troy_s
You will see.
17:03
troy_s
Aesthetic is everything to the bulk of the audience you seek. (75% of the eyes you have attracted is pretty damn close to Pareto)
17:04
Bertl
that is actually an excellent idea, we should add a 'why' with some options like:
17:04
Bertl
- technical reasons
17:04
Bertl
- existing experience with that sensor
17:04
Bertl
- sensor format
17:04
Bertl
- sensor size
17:06
danieel
you had a poll for sensor size before, what are the results?
17:06
Bertl
no idea, maybe se6astian knows?
17:07
se6astian
we had a poll for camera application not sensor size
17:08
danieel
and in the wiki
17:08
se6astian
you mean the "build your dream camera survey": https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Build_your_dream_camera
17:09
danieel
yes that one
17:09
se6astian
results should be public for that one
17:10
danieel
heavily in favor of large sensors
17:10
troy_s
Not surprising
17:11
troy_s
Again, when the primary goal is cinema, the aesthetic is what it is about
17:11
Bertl
danieel: btw, was there some disconnect or did you just silently ignore my request for a panel price? :)
17:12
danieel
even that sensor size is one variable, which can be compensated by adjusting others (shooting distance, focal length)
17:12
se6astian
interesting though in the current poll that the high price of the Super35mm version compared to the much cheaper 4/3" option is not a problem for most people
17:12
troy_s
danieel: Utter rubbish
17:12
troy_s
danieel: Perpetuated by small sensor idiocy
17:12
Bertl
se6astian: fine with me, if they folks want to spend real money on the sensor, so be it
17:13
troy_s
Here is a fact: optics are optics. A 75mm lens is a 75mm lens always.
17:13
troy_s
se6astian: That too is easily explained
17:13
danieel
75mm lens does not guarantee any aesthetics - unless you bind it to a projection plane of defined size.
17:13
troy_s
se6astian: The current audience is hobby / enthusiast.
17:14
troy_s
se6astian: Hit the wall on what they desire versus reality of price.
17:14
gcolburn
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17:14
troy_s
danieel: Not going to argue on this one. It is the absurdity of bullshit cropping.
17:17
troy_s
A lens has a fixed aesthetic (including color), and is something idiocy that has never studied photography would suggest.
17:18
troy_s
Hence why turn of the century plate photography had an extremely unique aesthetic. Same for Super35, IMAX, etc.etc.etc.
17:19
danieel
troy_s: it is hard to judge that, when there is so much CGI today... and grading where budget allows
17:20
troy_s
danieel: No, it isn't.
17:20
troy_s
danieel: And you have a mountain of evidence to the contrary to overcome to support that position.
17:21
danieel
is there any cine lens vs photo lens comparison test (ideally with same camera)
17:21
troy_s
danieel: Many out there.
17:22
troy_s
danieel: it is easier to think as I was taught long ago by a very wise mind; a lens has a fixed aesthetic, the gate is what you permit it to see.
17:23
troy_s
There is no comparison required to see why depth of field is moot on a dinky cell phone camera versus a longer lens wider gate cinema camera.
17:23
troy_s
And anamorphic lens full 4:3 versus cropped R3D 4:3 and on and on and on.
17:48
Bertl
danieel: I take the silence as no-share then.
17:48
danieel
the price depends where you take it and how many you take it, if you need few, it can be as high as $100
17:50
Bertl
how many did you get an how much did you pay then?
17:53
danieel
that i can not disclose - oficiall distributors in europe would tell you - EOL, we cant get it.
17:54
Bertl
well, thanks then, as usual, it was a pleasure :)
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intracube
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intracube
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20:36
niemand
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21:03
se6astian
time for bed
21:03
se6astian
good night
21:05
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23:26
jucar
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