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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/02/09

Timezone: UTC


02:28
rexbron_
Bertl: Re mini bnc, why would I want 5 in the space of 4? I'd rather have it integrate with the cables I've already got and are standard on all other pieces of pro video gear
02:29
rexbron_
the merits of one vs the other are moot in the face of the inertia
02:29
rexbron_
I'll take a photo tomorrow of why mini-bnc on set are stupid :)
03:31
Bertl
okay, looking forward to it :)
03:32
Bertl
note that I heard the same argument 15 years ago regarding BNC/RG58 vs RJ45/ethernet :)
06:18
troy_s
Bertl: Interestingly, BNC is used for long runs of both too.
06:18
troy_s
Bertl: Both ethernet and, more importantly, long signal video for playback.
06:36
gwelkind
left the channel
06:50
Bertl
nevertheless, BNC died with 10Base2 for ethernet :)
06:51
gwelkind
joined the channel
06:51
Bertl
anyway, I'm just curious why the (as guest stated it) only 20% smaller mini-BNC is sooo bad compared to BNC (which is sooo good :)
06:53
Bertl
-it
06:54
Bertl
I understand that most folks have 'old' BNC cables lying around somewhere, so it makes sense that they want to use those instead of getting new (smaller/better) ones ... but that's not really an argument for or against the connector itself
06:55
Bertl
nevertheless, it might be an argument for/against _using_ this or that connector
07:31
troy_s
Bertl: As far as I have learned, it is the same thought tas rexbron_
07:31
troy_s
Bertl: That slightly smaller connector suffers from the Scaling Fallacy
07:31
troy_s
Bertl: It really is that much weaker
08:13
Bertl
okay
08:13
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
13:34
se6astian
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13:34
se6astian
good day!
13:39
[1]se6astian
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13:41
se6astian
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13:41
[1]se6astian
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14:12
danhanes
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15:17
rexbron_
http://imgur.com/PEATAo0
15:19
rexbron_
There's my photo. Note that the recorder only comes with 2x adaptor cables. We've ordered more as backups but within 12" of the recorder, I need to connect regular, longer bnc cables to connect to the camera and to the other monitors on set.
15:53
philippej
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15:54
philippej
smaller connectors, reminds me of usb vs micro usb. The smaller it is the worst it gets. Also bnc is "industry standard"...
16:07
Bertl
morning everyone!
16:23
[1]se6astian
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16:25
[1]se6astian
hello!
16:26
se6astian
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16:26
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
16:38
philippej2
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16:54
rexbron_
Bertl, see above
18:05
philippej2
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18:06
philippej
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18:06
gwelkind
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18:12
philippej
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18:30
gwelkind
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18:52
philippej
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20:38
SashaC
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20:39
gwelkind
So, question: Why is OpenCine being built as a standalone program, couldn't it work well as a series of extensions to Blender?
20:40
troy_s
gwelkind: I think that is a separate project.
20:41
troy_s
gwelkind: And Blender doesn't fit entirely anyways.
20:42
gwelkind
You mean that OpenCine is separate than apertus, and that this IRC isn't the place for such a discussion, or that RAW-PP Blender extensions and OpenCine are separate projects?
20:42
troy_s
gwelkind: To fully explain however, it would require dissecting what OpenCine should do. ;)
20:42
troy_s
gwelkind: Everything except the IRC part.
20:42
troy_s
Let me get to a desktop.
20:42
gwelkind
Sure, I'd love to hear about it, take your time
20:44
troy_s
gwelkind: The following opinions are my own, not Apertus / Axiom (that's Bertl and se6astian's domain)
20:45
troy_s
gwelkind: However I know my way around post production well enough, and have been asked / dealt with very similar questions many times over the past decade.
20:45
troy_s
(Well more than a decade in Libre / Open Source)
20:45
troy_s
gwelkind: So the first question is the one that is hidden in your original question, and it has to do with implied positions: What do you believe the software should do?
20:46
gwelkind
right, sure
20:46
troy_s
Fair?
20:46
gwelkind
mhm :)
20:46
troy_s
(Because in my experience, often the great huge tirades / explosions that follow all are based off of very different starting points of assumptions, and some of those are more or less optimal given a post production pipeline and implicit design goals.)
20:47
troy_s
So?
20:48
gwelkind
oh, what do I (specifically) believe it should do
20:49
gwelkind
Just realized that wasn't a rhetorical question
20:49
troy_s
gwelkind: That's a good starting point.
20:49
gwelkind
OK:
20:49
troy_s
gwelkind: Because it will also reveal some of your thought process regarding a post production pipeline regarding this particular camera.
20:49
troy_s
It should be noted up front that the Axiom is primarily directed as a cinema camera. I state this because it is sometimes believed that some designed things can be used for 'everything'.
20:50
gwelkind
Blender's source is relatively well documented, and most people who do post production in linux right now are using Blender-- it just seems to me that, in order to maximize utility to as many people as possible, we would want to integrate with a familiar toolset and conform to a standardized UI
20:50
troy_s
(For example, there has been some discussion in this channel regarding audio interfaces etc, and the consensus was that this camera is most certainly not designed with newsgathering directly as a key point.
20:50
troy_s
gwelkind: Hold. You have started at the wrong place.
20:50
gwelkind
sorry, I'm still typing:
20:51
troy_s
gwelkind: Here is a clearer question: What software, if any, should be designed for Axiom?
20:51
troy_s
(Sorry to interrupt you; the merits of Blender are somewhat tangential.)
20:52
troy_s
(Although I would hope I could explain the answer to your specific question after this brief discussion)
20:53
gwelkind
I guess the aim of any open source project, in my understanding, is to fill a need that is not currently met. In this case, there are post production tools that exist for Linux, but they lack specific features and attributes that are necessary in order for them to be useful.
20:54
troy_s
Too broad.
20:54
gwelkind
OK:
20:54
troy_s
Or rather, I worry that your answer doesn't answer the key question here.
20:54
troy_s
Fair?
20:54
gwelkind
Yes:
20:54
troy_s
(And on a Foucault side, "useful" is privileged language; Always hidden assumptions in there.)
20:54
Bertl
note that this is the #apertus channel and not the #axiom channel, although it has been used for axiom most of the time, since it was 'revived'
20:55
Bertl
so it is perfectly fine to talk everything apertus here not just axiom :)
20:55
troy_s
Bertl: Ugh.
20:55
Bertl
(although if there is more interest in non apertus axiom stuff, we'll consider doing a separate channel)
20:55
troy_s
Bertl: So I take it there needs to be a specific channel for something like this? I worry because the lines are so blurry.
20:56
Bertl
no, I don't think we need a different/separate channel atm
20:56
troy_s
Bertl: I'd worry in that a typical touchpoint might be this channel, and perhaps explaining what can be dealt with here and what won't is a good starting point.
20:56
troy_s
(and it is an interesting question in this instance, because I do believe it touches on something I'm also working on right now. Well I will be after this discussion. :))
20:57
troy_s
(IE: Apertus and software for raw processing.)
20:57
troy_s
gwelkind: Sorry. Type...
20:57
gwelkind
So, I guess something that enables end users to perform color correction, assemble clip sequences and apply filters, it should abstract them from technical aspects while being modular enough to allow them to do nuke-like compositing, or script their own filters and extensions
20:58
troy_s
(Bertl / se6astian PS: I find the whole OpenCine page rather confused and convoluted at best. Like something written by folks that haven't even yet laid out the design needs.)
20:59
Bertl
to be honest, I haven't even looked at it yet :)
20:59
troy_s
(Not sure who was responsible for that page, but it sure feels confused and muddled - something that is completely counter what I have experienced watching you folks develop the actual camera)
20:59
troy_s
Bertl: Exactly. :)
20:59
troy_s
Bertl: Perhaps nuking it would be prudent.
20:59
troy_s
Bertl: Heck, there are things on there that are actually smashing in the face of much of what we have chatted on about in there regarding some of the camera needs / issues.
20:59
gwelkind
I'm know I'm being abstract here, but I guess I'm not technically literate when it comes to the differences between the RAW pipeline and non-RAW
21:00
troy_s
gwelkind: Let me help...
21:00
troy_s
gwelkind: You have a camera. Let's call it the Apertus Alpha.
21:00
gwelkind
Perhaps this is because I don't know what RAW enables, besides more control over color correction
21:00
troy_s
gwelkind: What are your expectations of using it say, on a short film.
21:00
gwelkind
OK, listening
21:00
troy_s
Ok. That's a good starting point.
21:00
troy_s
Let's talk briefly about that.
21:00
troy_s
Color correction can be distributed in many ways... let me throw out some nuances and complexities...
21:01
troy_s
Data format: We would need to deal with many different color spaces. Many different file formats (for going to, not just from)
21:01
troy_s
Agree?
21:01
troy_s
Once we have your data ingested, we will need to tweak color. Three sliders isn't sufficient obviously. It would require much more complexity. Scopes. Color space transforms.
21:02
troy_s
Tracking.
21:02
troy_s
Then we will want to separate control of one color region from another.
21:02
gwelkind
^Agree
21:02
troy_s
(aka a secondary grade)
21:02
troy_s
That will require nodes or some flow like system.
21:02
troy_s
Further
21:02
troy_s
if we even begin to open up Pandora's box a little further.
21:02
troy_s
We will need to decide if this is purely a 'fake it look' tool for dailies
21:02
troy_s
or is this to be for post production grading of the material?
21:03
troy_s
If the latter, we now have to figure out how to get from an offline edit to our online grading
21:03
gwelkind
Woah, woah
21:03
troy_s
Which also rolls in complexities about interchange formats like Avid Log format, EDL,
21:03
troy_s
etc.
21:03
gwelkind
you lost me on the last line
21:03
troy_s
Ok...
21:03
troy_s
Two differnet points where color are involved
21:03
troy_s
1) When you shoot with your camera and you want to do a 'quickie' starting point on your footage so you can get to editorial.
21:04
troy_s
(aka Dailies, Workprints, etc.)
21:04
gwelkind
sure
21:04
troy_s
2) When you have fully cut your picture and want to go from the workprint to your final ready-for-delivery data.
21:04
troy_s
Two different contexts that require very unique tools
21:05
gwelkind
OK, that's offline edit vs online grading?
21:05
troy_s
In the latter, you need to get from your text blueprint (Avid log, EDL, FCPXML, etc.)
21:05
troy_s
Yes.
21:05
troy_s
Exactly.
21:05
gwelkind
I didn't know that, makes sense though
21:05
troy_s
Offline here means - "Workprint. Not using the data."
21:05
troy_s
Online means - "Final data."
21:05
troy_s
And while newsies and such might find it great to load up FCPX and drag and drop and go
21:06
troy_s
The needs of cinema / motion picture work are quite different.
21:06
gwelkind
workprint is a pre-production term?
21:06
troy_s
(and of course, Foucault "quality" varies on context)
21:06
troy_s
Sure.
21:06
troy_s
It is an oldschool term from film
21:06
troy_s
You shot your negatives
21:06
troy_s
you printed a workprint using a qucikie grade (called a one light) and you edited using your workprint
21:07
troy_s
When you were done, you took your edit list from your workprint and created a blueprint for your negative cutter who sat in a white room and cut your original negatives.
21:07
troy_s
gwelkind: Sense?
21:07
gwelkind
like a low-quality render, just to get something fast so you can review, share, discuss, right?
21:07
troy_s
The term sort of makes sense here too because your editor doesn't really care about yoru image quality.
21:07
gwelkind
*low-resolution haha
21:07
troy_s
And they can't exactly edit in realtime on your high grade 112414k images etc.
21:07
troy_s
gwelkind: Exactly.
21:07
gwelkind
right, OK, I'm with you now
21:08
troy_s
If you use the negative example, it makes sense too because you wouldn't want to cut on your original negatives would you?
21:08
troy_s
Nor would you really want to be twiddling on your raw frames.
21:08
troy_s
(They are vastly huge for what you need to do - cut. They are in a deeper depth than you need for cutting. Etc.)
21:09
gwelkind
Right, of course, a functional stand-in
21:09
troy_s
(And you probably want to edit while you are on a train to meet some of your peers etc.)
21:09
troy_s
Yes.
21:09
troy_s
So ... back to our original question
21:09
troy_s
Does our starting question of color correction tool, need to be logging (the early part) or online grading.
21:09
troy_s
?
21:09
troy_s
Because even the former is a rather formidable task as you may see now.
21:09
troy_s
The latter is unattainable by even a team of folks possibly.
21:10
troy_s
And that is assuming you have a team with the knowledge and ability to even execute it.
21:10
troy_s
(which in my experience, is pretty darn hard to negotiate in the first place)
21:10
troy_s
Fair?
21:10
gwelkind
Yes
21:11
troy_s
gwelkind: So let's go a step back before that then and realize that we aren't quite "there yet" to discuss the design needs of either of those pieces of software. MAYBE a logging grading tool for 'one lights'... but even then.
21:11
troy_s
gwelkind: So how about your camera and your short film.
21:11
troy_s
gwelkind: You want to shoot. Then you want to edit.
21:11
troy_s
gwelkind: So you shoot. Now what?
21:11
gwelkind
I would do an assembly cut, just get things in the right order
21:12
gwelkind
See what we're actually going to need to spend time refining
21:12
troy_s
(and I might seem a little harsh here, but I've watched at least a DOZEN airey fairy ideas of "LETS MAKE AN NLE" come and go in Libre / open source that I immediately worry about the design contexts.)
21:12
troy_s
Whoa
21:12
troy_s
You don't even have the footage off your camera yet.
21:12
troy_s
(And this is in fact going to be software.)
21:13
gwelkind
Oh, ok, well I guess I would want to extract the RAW files onto a backup medium, then convert RAW files to some stand-in format that's easier to work with, like we discussed
21:13
troy_s
So let's not even worry about actually cutting just yet. Let's worry about getting the data that Bertl has designed to get onto the disk off the disk and into an edit room.
21:13
troy_s
Ok great.
21:13
troy_s
So our first incarnation of the OpenCine tools
21:13
troy_s
probably need something to go from AxiomFoobar to ???
21:13
troy_s
We probably need to think about that ???
21:13
troy_s
Agree?
21:14
gwelkind
AxiomFoobar being a RAW format from the Apertus?
21:14
troy_s
And that question likely takes us to other contextuals: What are people going to edit on?
21:14
gwelkind
Right
21:14
troy_s
Yep.
21:14
troy_s
We could be donkeys and say "YOU MUST EDIT ON <Insert Crapware here>"
21:15
troy_s
Or we could be a little more liberal and think about some basic output format that are suitable for editorial in typical editors. Say... Avid, FCPX, LightWorks maybe...
21:15
troy_s
That probably would need some research into formats. I'll save you a bit and throw out DNxHD and ProRes and even h264 with timecode.
21:15
troy_s
Sound decent?
21:15
troy_s
(Or we go further and support "everything!" like Quake codecs etc.)
21:16
Bertl
h264 is not that bad :)
21:16
gwelkind
I've heard of 2/3 of those, and I assume utilities exist to handle all of them in the aforementioned programs
21:16
troy_s
gwelkind: Well the design constraints of DNxHD (of which ProRes is effectively a knock off of)
21:16
troy_s
gwelkind: Is a stream that is suitable for real-time playback and maintaining frame accuracy (key to cutting obviously)
21:17
gwelkind
Got it
21:17
troy_s
ProRes evolved into something that people would like to think is much more for doing 'everything' but...
21:17
troy_s
(long discourse there I'm sure)
21:17
troy_s
So we have ApertusRaw -> ???
21:18
gwelkind
DNxHD
21:18
troy_s
Or ... even DNG perhaps.
21:18
gwelkind
Ah, right
21:18
troy_s
But in the raw, we have some nuances. We have a color space transform. We have the need to scale chroma (Bayer patterns and all)
21:18
troy_s
and some of that, if we are focusing on cinema quality, are nuanced
21:18
Bertl
you can cut ApertusRaw with dd :)
21:19
gwelkind
Bertl: dd?
21:19
troy_s
(different scaling techniques yield different results for example)
21:19
troy_s
gwelkind: Copy.
21:19
troy_s
gwelkind: He's being clever and say that it's just a big stream of frames. :)
21:20
Bertl
a unix tool to basically copy data streams, with seek and skip features
21:20
troy_s
gwelkind: So the next question is: "This raw conversion software... what should it do?"
21:20
troy_s
(Further down the rabbit hole)
21:20
gwelkind
right, right
21:20
troy_s
We agree we will probably need to go from ApertusRaw to DNxHD
21:20
troy_s
and if we keep it simple as that
21:20
troy_s
we have to ask some follow up questions given our context of editing...
21:21
troy_s
We know that we are editing, and the 'look' of the footage can impact the editing a bit, so our director of photography likely wants to 'stamp' the footage with a rough approximation as to what she wanted when she shot it.
21:21
troy_s
(this is effectively like our oldschool lab scenario where the lab would bake a 'one light' into the workprint.)
21:22
troy_s
So we need (1) some extremely rudimentary color feature
21:22
troy_s
or we skip that and have only a tool that dumps to say, a more capable and known format for raw such as DNG, then have another wedge to deal with that DNG to DNxHD step for example
21:23
troy_s
The color feature could be skipped by providing say, a way for DPs to use their given LUTs (3D or even simple 1D LUTs)
21:23
troy_s
and 'bake' it into the DNxHD for editorial.
21:23
troy_s
gwelkind: With me?
21:23
gwelkind
right, wouldn't that be easier? You aren't losing fidelity converting between these formats, right? They're all lossless
21:23
troy_s
Editorial can be lossy as heck
21:23
troy_s
It could be 640 x 480 if you want.
21:23
troy_s
Doesn't matter.
21:23
gwelkind
Ok, Ok, we're just on (1) right now, I follow you
21:23
troy_s
We have our original ApertusRaw... we don't need anything else technically.
21:24
troy_s
(and if you are unfamiliar with typical pipelines, the files off the camera are archived and are only referred to long after the edit is finished and Vfx or conforming is required)
21:24
troy_s
So ... ApertusRaw to DNxHD maybe, with a LUT baker for baking a look generated in another application.
21:25
Bertl
short question here: is there a standard 'handle' for each original/raw frame?
21:25
troy_s
Or ApertusRaw to DNG option for using the 'raw bayer"
21:25
troy_s
Bertl: In what respect?
21:25
troy_s
File handle?
21:25
Bertl
i.e. something like a hash or frame number or so?
21:25
troy_s
Could be. Depends on the contextual need of the software really.
21:25
troy_s
If you are designing a grading app, then absolutely.
21:26
Bertl
something which precisely defines a certain frame
21:26
troy_s
As you would need to scrub the footage.
21:26
troy_s
and look at your grades.
21:26
troy_s
Even the chroma scaler will need something like that.
21:26
troy_s
I'm not sure how you are storing your data
21:26
troy_s
:)
21:26
troy_s
Are the frames singular or are they going to be a huge Datablob?
21:26
troy_s
gwelkind: Sense?
21:27
gwelkind
Let me look over it one more time
21:27
Bertl
or to be precise, which identifies a frame unambiguously (I'm asking how it is done today)
21:27
troy_s
Bertl: Oh. That's a byproduct of the raw source or, worst case, codec.
21:27
troy_s
Bertl: If you shot to say, ProRes... that's in the codec.
21:28
troy_s
Bertl: If you shot in ArriRaw or SonyRaw then the files they generate have the layout.
21:28
Bertl
okay, let me rephrase, you do the raw shoot, create the 'edit' version and put the raw into cold storage, yes?
21:28
troy_s
Bertl: For editorial, the ubiquitous standard is the frame, via timecode.
21:28
troy_s
Bingo.
21:28
troy_s
The file vault.
21:28
Bertl
then you do some editing, and once you're done, you 'apply' this to the original raw
21:29
troy_s
Bertl: Yes. "Conform" I suppose is the best term there.
21:29
troy_s
Bertl: Hiero and such are wedges that serve that sort of purpose.
21:29
Bertl
now what I'm wondering is, how do you match the 'edits' to the 'original' on a per frame basis
21:29
troy_s
In terms of organizing your footage and layers of processing.
21:29
troy_s
(in a big project)
21:29
troy_s
in a smaller, you can do it from say, Resolve
21:29
troy_s
or something like that.
21:29
troy_s
Bertl: EDL :)
21:30
troy_s
(Or Avid Log, or FCPXML, or whatever.)
21:30
gwelkind
*Googles EDL*
21:30
troy_s
You only need A) Media source B) In point. C) Out point.
21:30
troy_s
And if you screw that up, Resolve can even match frames on media it understands.
21:30
troy_s
(using a picture match from your edit)
21:31
troy_s
gwelkind: At this point... I certainly _hope_ that at least part of your question is answered.
21:31
troy_s
"couldn't it work well as a series of extensions to Blender?"
21:32
Bertl
okay, so there doesn't seem to be any (open) standard for identifying the frames ...
21:32
gwelkind
Yes, it sounds like what we're describing is more of a modular utility, capable of being integrated into a variety of existing programs
21:32
troy_s
Well... let's flip that over
21:32
troy_s
Does it work the other way around?
21:32
troy_s
What if it is not modular.
21:33
troy_s
Say a 'mega' tool of some sort.
21:33
troy_s
"Use X camera, Use Y software."
21:33
troy_s
(Lose a lot of shooters out of the gate likely.)
21:33
troy_s
(Assuming you can even write that software (Hint: You can't.))
21:33
gwelkind
haha
21:33
troy_s
(Botch up a lot of things you and I haven't even imagined because we are human and can't see certain shooting contexts.)
21:34
gwelkind
yes, so 'OpenCine' isn't intended as a standalone 'mega tool'?
21:34
troy_s
gwelkind: And that is even assuming (your original question) that Blender is even acceptable at doing such a thing. (Hint: It isn't in many respects.)
21:34
troy_s
gwelkind: Well... OpenCine is probably a lot of things to a lot of people. I cringe when I read about it and see the examples.
21:35
troy_s
gwelkind: Only because I am about 1% informed on color and data and other things, and even _I_ can see how much of a monumental task it is to replace an entire ecosystem of tools.
21:35
troy_s
gwelkind: There's plenty of "It should do everything for everyone" thinkers in Libre / Open source.
21:36
troy_s
gwelkind: And frankly, that is likely because people have never actually tried designing something themselves. (And by design, I extend that into say, graphic design etc.)
21:36
troy_s
It's great to theorize how cinema _should_ be made, _might_ be made, _could_ be made, etc.
21:36
troy_s
It's another thing entirely to make it and encounter the obstacles.
21:36
troy_s
(and the inherent needs)
21:37
troy_s
gwelkind: Even after this brief little chit chat, go read https://www.apertus.org/opencine and look at it with new eyes.
21:37
gwelkind
Right, I think if you get down to Unix roots, OSS has historically worked best when it's specific, modular, and appropriately scaled.
21:37
troy_s
Bingo.
21:37
troy_s
And that isn't "optimal" for a lot of contexts I'm sure.
21:37
troy_s
But frankly, the job is too big if you try to do everything for everyone.
21:38
troy_s
(and we haven't even begun discussing the actual needs of say, a colorist trying to grade footage. :) )
21:38
troy_s
So small steps.
21:38
troy_s
I can point out some flaws immediately on that page.
21:38
troy_s
1) Set in / out points in footage.
21:38
troy_s
What?
21:39
troy_s
So this is also now a logger / trimmer for removing heads and tails of slates etc?
21:39
troy_s
So it also now likely needs to deal with sound.
21:39
SashaC
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21:39
troy_s
"Save/Load color transformation presets to/from File."
21:39
troy_s
So now what format are we talking? Float?
21:39
troy_s
If we are talking 32 bit float, on a 5k bayer (not quite native 2k image), we are talking a large amount of data.
21:40
troy_s
Realtime now hits a new design constraint
21:40
troy_s
and we haven't even begun talking about color interchanges (CDL for example, doesn't deal with secondary grades)
21:40
troy_s
And we haven't dealt with color transforms (OCIO would be needed, as well as a whole set of GUI elements)
21:41
troy_s
gwelkind: When would you expect even that simple software exactly?
21:41
troy_s
:)
21:41
troy_s
You could probably go talk to say, http://lumiera.org/ or http://www.novacut.com/ or other such vapourware
21:41
gwelkind
Hahaha, right, well the task at hand seems much more reasonable then
21:41
troy_s
Or maybe OpenShot, which while not vapourware, might as well be
21:42
troy_s
(as the contextual needs aren't dealt with. How do you do visual effects work in OpenShot? Oh yeah...)
21:42
gwelkind
Plus I'm sure if OpenCine was blackboxed up, and small, it could be integrated by Blender Devs pretty easily
21:42
troy_s
gwelkind: Well I've used Blender enough to say "Extensively" I suppose.
21:42
gwelkind
Hahaha, yeah, I looked at OpenShot a bit. Spaghetti code, impossible even to install for most users.
21:42
troy_s
gwelkind: And I can tell you it has some pretty ... uh large potholes.
21:43
troy_s
(I've taken two music videos to broadcast with it... not fun, but a rewarding challenge.)
21:43
troy_s
And believe it or not, some of the most glaring potholes no one even knew existed (Hell... color management wasn't even going to be where it is today until they tried to use the F65 :) )
21:45
gwelkind
I agree, at least from my marginal knowledge of it's inner workings, but wouldn't you say it's the best we've got on the libre front?
21:45
troy_s
Absolutely.
21:45
troy_s
But again, "good enough" and "useful" and all those privileged words come with secret ideas and ideology.
21:45
troy_s
For example, how the hell do you use timecode in Blender?
21:45
troy_s
:)
21:46
gwelkind
Man, I wish I could tell you.
21:46
troy_s
Well you can't.
21:46
troy_s
How could you take an offline edited elsewhere and load it into the VSE? You can't.
21:46
troy_s
So how do you get the shots to work on?
21:46
troy_s
(By hand)
21:46
troy_s
Etc. etc. etc.
21:46
troy_s
It's why so many "ZOMFG WE NEED NLESSSSSSSS" discussions fall to crap\
21:47
troy_s
Because there isn't a single soul in the discussions that has a remote clue as to what exactly the NLE needs to do.
21:47
troy_s
(that probably sounds like a ridiculous egotistical statement, but darnit... I've been watching this cruft for so many years)
21:48
gwelkind
I'm in no position to confirm or deny, but I certainly don't know what an NLE needs to do
21:48
troy_s
Cut.
21:48
troy_s
:)
21:48
gwelkind
XD
21:49
troy_s
Seems stupid, but the demon is in the details.
21:49
gwelkind
Beautiful. Thanks for that troy_s, learned a lot from this discussion and it's tangents
21:49
troy_s
1) Cut what? (Many just assume you want to cut on original sources. Given this camera as an example, you can probably already see where this falls apart... let alone say, next generation 16k or whatever Bayer)
21:49
troy_s
gwelkind: Glad it didn't seem like a mad lunatic's dribble.
21:50
troy_s
gwelkind: I will say that for every person who rejects "How it is done" out in small indie land for years (even back to film)
21:50
troy_s
gwelkind: The _reason_ it is done like that often is more than just pure anachronistic stubbornness.
21:50
troy_s
gwelkind: Maybe all of the folks that do it that way actually have learned from experience.
21:50
gwelkind
btw: timecode = XML of files and their in/out points?
21:51
troy_s
(Full disclosure, I cut on film back ages ago. I have a bit of respect for that path due to the 'why' process.)
21:51
troy_s
gwelkind: Not always XML
21:51
troy_s
EDL (in particular, CMX 3600) is actually a really crap 1980 plaintext file
21:51
troy_s
(With many variants that cause fits in softwares in very weird and unique ways.)
21:52
troy_s
(So why do many films still use EDL? Because so many "THIS WILL DO EVERYTHING" formats fail miserably in doing too much.)
21:52
troy_s
(FCPXML was a very well documented and useful format until FCPX as I understand it. FCPXML was very well specified.)
21:52
troy_s
(Then the consumer / prosumer FCPX came along and sort of frapped a lot of stuff that many folks needed.)
21:53
guest
i never though fcp was something professional... same level as ms-word in terms of printing... where pros use at least latex or so
21:53
troy_s
gwelkind: To give you an idea on some places where knowledge has gaps...
21:54
troy_s
gwelkind: Try this http://mango.blender.org/production/first-original-footage-frames-in-4k/
21:54
troy_s
(read the comments)
21:54
troy_s
guest: Many features have been edited on FCP and Avid.
21:54
troy_s
guest: But when someone reads "Edited on FCP | Avid" they often erroneously misread "Made with FCP | Avid"
21:55
troy_s
guest: The tragic part they are missing is that YES they are edited on there (and the editing tools are well known for their streamlined efficiency (or at least prior to FCPX))
21:55
troy_s
guest: The _only_ thing coming out of those apps is a text file.
21:55
troy_s
:)
21:55
troy_s
guest: And in fact, in your second example, I'd ask you to ask a published author.
21:55
guest
they could do it on paper, for god sake.. fcp is there for "no" reason :)
21:55
troy_s
guest: (Hint: Professional published authors almost always have to exclusively use Word. Yes. Strange.)
21:56
troy_s
guest: Well... handling a large project in terms of editing is no small feat (heck there are _editors_)
21:56
guest
because the focus is on the contents, probably
21:56
troy_s
guest: Editing is about cutting. And managing cuts. And organizing.
21:56
troy_s
guest: And FCP / Avid / Thelma's LightWorks, etc. all do a very good job.
21:57
guest
i was expecing lightworks to come with some nice features
21:57
troy_s
guest: But again, to conflate editing with 'making a movieeeeee' is a mistake the general population tends ot fubar.
21:57
guest
but they cant do DNG and 4K yet :/
21:57
troy_s
guest: "nice" is privileged language.
21:57
troy_s
guest: Why would you need 4k or DNG in an NLE exactly again?
21:57
troy_s
:)
21:57
troy_s
(Hint: You don't.)
21:57
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21:58
guest
so where you mix your edl and original fullres content?
21:59
troy_s
guest: Better question. Depends on what you are using.
21:59
troy_s
guest: A Resolve suite, a Baselight station, Lustre, you name it.
21:59
se6astian
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21:59
[1]se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian
22:00
troy_s
(or before that, for visual effects - something like Hiero can pull frames)
22:00
guest
lets say just editing and color grading, no vfx and we can leave out audio too
22:00
guest
i would expect that the nle is the last piece of sw to put it together
22:01
troy_s
Editing is different from grading.
22:01
troy_s
And no.
22:01
troy_s
The NLE comes before grading.
22:01
troy_s
The GENERAL order of events is:
22:01
troy_s
1) Shoot
22:01
troy_s
2) Assembly
22:01
troy_s
3) Rough/Fine/Final Cut.
22:01
troy_s
4) PIcture lock
22:01
troy_s
5) Post production (music / sound / vfx)
22:01
troy_s
6) Final Grade
22:01
troy_s
7) Delivery
22:02
gwelkind
(I'm taking notes right now)
22:02
guest
what is between 6 and 7 then?
22:02
gwelkind
What's picture lock?
22:02
troy_s
Where 2, 3, 4 are the domain of the NLE.
22:02
troy_s
gwelkind: When you aren't going to change a shot. :)
22:02
troy_s
The picture is locked.
22:02
gwelkind
coo'
22:02
troy_s
A bigger deal on projects with more visual effects.
22:02
troy_s
(for obvious reasons I'd hope. :) )
22:02
gwelkind
hahah, yeah, understood
22:02
troy_s
Even then, breaking picture lock can have not great ends... often hemorraging cash.)
22:03
troy_s
And often people like to say "But we are a small project". Even on a small project, chances are you aren't scoring the film. Nor doing the sound effects.
22:03
troy_s
Even a small team has roles. Maybe a fellow is doing grading and visual effects. Maybe even edting.
22:03
troy_s
Maybe someone else is doing the music and sound.
22:04
troy_s
But even then, you wouldn't expect a music suite or sound suite to be crammed into an NLE.
22:04
troy_s
Nor would you expect an NLE to say, track markers for visual effects or a grade.
22:04
troy_s
(And if it can, it probably can't do it as optimally as suites dedicated to the task.)
22:04
troy_s
(Or it is operating on crappier data.)
22:06
troy_s
gwelkind: If you are wondering when OpenColorIO made it into Blender... it is about here http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-vfx/2012-May/000316.html
22:07
guest
have to go.. will read it tomorrow
22:08
guest
my first experience with the 4k dngs i made are... doing it in wysiwyg way is almost impossible, even with the latest PC's :) so I am basically with you troy_s
22:08
troy_s
guest: It can be done, but the tech always exceeds the software.
22:09
troy_s
guest: Hence the offline approach.
22:09
troy_s
You just get your software up to 2k realtime and boom, 4k Sony shows up (which is 8k Bayer)
22:09
troy_s
Like that in video games too.
22:09
troy_s
But until you actually _try_ to accomplish things, you can't quite appreciate why things often are done the way they are.
22:10
guest
but lot of people cant get it (i can count myself there) - until they actually try to solve/use it
22:10
troy_s
Bingo.
22:10
troy_s
guest: Which is why I always appreciate folks that try things. Do a project.
22:10
troy_s
It teaches so much.
22:10
guest
so i have one advice for axiom - make 4k files, its not that easy :)
22:11
guest
really must go, see you later
22:12
troy_s
guest: (I think they are 5k :) )
22:14
troy_s
gwelkind: Anyways... did your original Blender question get answered?
22:23
gwelkind
Yes, and about 30 others!
22:26
gwelkind
I saw the GUI mockup on the website and got the impression somehow that OpenCine was trying to be a standalone post processing suite
22:26
gwelkind
but I understand much better now.
22:26
gwelkind
I still have to read your OCIO link, but I'm off to dinner with some mates. Talk to you later, I hope, tysm!
22:27
gwelkind
(Loved the Fucault references btw, I'm just getting into him this month!)
22:39
troy_s
gwelkind: PM
22:39
troy_s
gwelkind: Or email me.
23:01
danhanes
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23:05
se6astian
time for bed, good night!
23:05
se6astian
left the channel