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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2015/08/08

Timezone: UTC


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intracube
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Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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Bertl_oO
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fsteinel_
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11:08
aombk2
http://nofilmschool.com/2015/08/odyssey7Q-7Qplus-high-speed-apple-prores-4k-uhd-firmware-update
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Bertl_zZ
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11:09
Bertl
morning folks!
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intracube|away
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15:26
se6astian|away
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15:26
se6astian
good day
16:01
Phrk_
Some guy use the pocket blackmagic ?
16:02
Phrk_
Curious to know if everything is working on a opensource workflow
16:04
se6astian
hi Phrk_, yes I use it
16:04
se6astian
but I wish there was a proper "open source workflow"....
16:06
Phrk_
what you mean by proper ?
16:06
Phrk_
ffmpeg can read the data, convert etc ?
16:07
Phrk_
I use blender-vse, it enough for my work
16:07
Phrk_
and 100000000000000x more stable than my 500$ software on windows
16:08
se6astian
sounds good, but once you start shooting raw the choices become a bit limiting
16:09
Phrk_
I never used raw don't know anything about it
16:10
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
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Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
16:16
Phrk_
the choices to export you mean ?
16:24
se6astian
raw development and conversation mainly
16:25
se6astian
*conversion
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comradekingu
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18:21
troy_s
Ugh.
18:21
troy_s
se6astian: Curious as to your particular take on "limiting"
18:22
troy_s
se6astian: The issue is that raw workflows are new to 99.5% of most imagers, so the idea of using an NLE to output a text file is alien to most.
18:22
troy_s
se6astian: And the tools lack accordingly out of ignorance.
18:23
troy_s
Phrk_: Are you familiar with post production pipes?
18:25
Phrk_
troy_s what do you mean by post production pipes ?
18:26
troy_s
Phrk_: How you handle an image from the point it is shot, through edit, through post.
18:26
troy_s
Phrk_: The reasons things get complex is because of that process and the "why"
18:27
Phrk_
well i adapt my image/video for blender with ffmpeg
18:28
troy_s
The problem with that is that codecs are inherently limited on a number of fronts.
18:28
Phrk_
But i'm used to cli convert, cause when i was on windows i use avisynth for massive convertion
18:28
troy_s
From bit depth (especially true in Blender) to colour transforms etc.
18:29
troy_s
You don't want to actually edit / cut on the raw (highest quality) frames.
18:29
Phrk_
no 10bit color transforms in blender ?
18:29
troy_s
You can't do that sort of thing effectively in an NLE.
18:30
troy_s
(for a number of reasons that are more obvious if you have ever done any compositing.)
18:30
Phrk_
What !?
18:31
troy_s
Just as I typed.
18:31
troy_s
Typical sources up to about 14 bit per channel require a deeper compositing buffer.
18:31
troy_s
So you ideally have a 32 bit float compositing buffer.
18:32
troy_s
If you couple that with say, a few hundred nodes in a compositing node chain, it is unworkable in an NLE.
18:32
Phrk_
it's say blender support OpenEXR
18:32
troy_s
It does.
18:33
troy_s
But the VSE is a compartmentalized section and doesn't integrate with the compositor (for good reason)
18:34
Phrk_
and if i use proxies
18:34
Phrk_
and when the edit is finished
18:34
Phrk_
i go to full raw and do color correction ?
18:35
troy_s
Almost can work, but there's a few hiccups in there.
18:35
troy_s
1) if the file is a codec, it won't be getting decoded to full bit depth last I looked at the code. I believe it is always 420 8 bit in Blender.
18:36
Phrk_
http://blendervelvets.org/en/velvet-revolver/ do you know this ?
18:36
troy_s
2) You would need a method to ship a shot to the compositor that isn't currently possible
18:37
Phrk_
the compositor of blender ?
18:37
Phrk_
well 420 8 bit it's very weak
18:37
Phrk_
indeed
18:37
troy_s
The real issue is that it is a solution to the wrong problem.
18:38
troy_s
The problem is that an NLE shouldn't be doing the work of imaging. It's a pacing / blocking / editing tool.
18:38
troy_s
A compositor or such tool is a much more appropriate place to be doing imaging, including the granularity and tools that an artist requires for such operations.
18:39
troy_s
So the real question is "How to get an edit out of an NLE and into a compositor, then conformed back into the final project shape when complete for grading?"
18:39
troy_s
Which is a slightly more complex and nuanced question.
18:39
Phrk_
no
18:39
Phrk_
Your question is buisness centered
18:40
Phrk_
if you have a big team there is tool for that
18:41
troy_s
Uh no.
18:41
Phrk_
opensource world is different you can do what you want, blender is not a common application, look the interface
18:41
troy_s
There's not a single tool in Libre land that even begins to deal with that.
18:41
Phrk_
not libre
18:41
troy_s
It's a show stopper.
18:41
Phrk_
Well if you have a big team, you have a lot of money, so give this money to a libre project :) and you get what you want
18:42
troy_s
The issue is more "tools" in that their scope is often crafted from an unfortunate lack of the full needs of a smaller project.
18:42
troy_s
(let alone medium sized project)
18:42
troy_s
It isn't about a big team. A short independent to independent feature needs that pipeline control.
18:42
troy_s
(And no, money doesn't solve Libre's problems. At all. Education does.)
18:43
Phrk_
Why ?
18:43
Phrk_
Why you want that piepline ?
18:44
Phrk_
It's like protools, why every audio application need to be like protools ?
18:45
Phrk_
Also i don't think there is compositor application for linux
18:45
troy_s
You need that pipeline.
18:45
Phrk_
the only one i know is resolve
18:45
troy_s
(if you are interested in crafting motion pictures.)
18:45
Phrk_
well i am interested
18:46
Phrk_
but for me color grading in blender is sufficient
18:46
troy_s
Not useful in the VSE as it currently stands.
18:46
Phrk_
im alone in my project, it's very small thing
18:46
troy_s
Problematic on a number of issues.
18:46
troy_s
You should probably learn a little more about the grading issues in that regard then.
18:46
troy_s
Do you use any overs / dissolves?
18:48
Phrk_
yes maybe, but if blender team use blender vse, im sure there more than 420 8bit
18:49
Phrk_
I need to practice a little bit to see to big problem
18:49
Phrk_
What's for you a good and solid pipeline in the non-libre world ?
18:49
troy_s
Don't worry about libre / non libre.
18:50
troy_s
Just look at needs.
18:50
troy_s
The Blender foundation uses the VSE, but they often start with still based media, which is why the bit depth is greater.
18:50
troy_s
Codecs are problematic on a number of fronts.
18:50
troy_s
Further, if you do a dissolve or over operation in the VSE you have an issue in that the mix is incorrect.
18:50
troy_s
(linear versus nonlinear reference space issue)
18:51
Phrk_
dissolve or over operation ? What is this ?
18:52
troy_s
Phrk_: Dissolve - when you fade one shot into another or to a solid colour.
18:52
troy_s
Phrk_: Over - a blend of something over top of another.
18:53
Phrk_
I only do fade into a solid color
18:53
Phrk_
can we do this in blender ?
18:54
troy_s
Hard to explain what some of the issues are.
18:54
troy_s
But let me show you via a very simple example.
18:55
troy_s
Phrk_: https://sketch.io/sketchpad/
18:55
troy_s
Open up the "Paintbrush" tool.
18:56
troy_s
Phrk_: Slide the "Size" to be a large brush.
18:56
troy_s
Phrk_: Change the colour by clicking on the hex values and choose a pure cyan by typing "00FFFF"
18:57
troy_s
Paint a large swatch of the cyan color.
18:57
troy_s
Now change your colour to pure red by clicking and typing "FF0000"
18:57
troy_s
then paint a single stroke over top.
18:58
troy_s
Phrk_: You should see this: https://sketch.io/render/sketch55c65166aa9c4.png
19:00
Phrk_
?
19:00
troy_s
Phrk_: See the result?
19:00
Phrk_
yes
19:00
troy_s
Phrk_: See that dark "What the hell is that smudge around the brush" area?
19:00
troy_s
That's a result of a nonlinear reference space (colour mumbo jumbo)
19:01
troy_s
So when you do a mix in a nonlinear space of two images, you get mangled up math just like that.
19:01
troy_s
But it has plenty of tricky issues when you are dealing with a motion picture that I won't go into. There's no super simple way to solve that issue without some rather nuanced and carefully designed software.
19:02
Phrk_
And you can't contribute and bug report to ehance the software ?
19:02
troy_s
(You can try that mix in the VSE and you will see similar results because the default reference mixing space is also nonlinear in Blender's VSE. You can of course change it, but it brings other issues.)
19:02
troy_s
It's not about bug reports.
19:03
Phrk_
well "new feature"
19:03
troy_s
It's about having a community of artists that understand the issues and understand that it isn't about a single piece of software or a particular function.
19:03
troy_s
That simple example (ridiculously simple) actually explodes into many issues that not many folks are aware of when doing motion picture work.
19:04
troy_s
That leads to more bad software. More bad functions. And more horrible design.
19:04
Phrk_
I understand
19:04
troy_s
Because it is largely an issue of data moving between software that is suitable for the needs.
19:04
Phrk_
but maybe you ask to much thing to blender
19:04
troy_s
Rather like being able to go from say, Blender to Ardour.
19:04
Phrk_
It's not a paint picture application
19:04
troy_s
You missed my point.
19:04
troy_s
That weird blending happens on images.
19:04
troy_s
As in motion picture images.
19:05
Phrk_
Yes i understood
19:05
troy_s
The solution is very much possible, but the larger issue is that a non-linear editor shouldn't be doing that sort of thing.
19:05
troy_s
It should only be providing the 'blueprint' on how it should be done, then another piece of software should be doing the actual work.
19:05
troy_s
Has particular implications for grading.
19:05
troy_s
Etc.
19:05
Phrk_
And if you use thing like after effect for doing this image thing ?
19:05
Phrk_
or Natron ?
19:06
Phrk_
Ah ok for grading
19:06
Phrk_
Deep grading like halo and light thing you mean ?
19:06
troy_s
That issue actually has a relevance on both compositing (whatever tool you choose) and grading.
19:07
Phrk_
Well I don't have the skill for that kind of grading
19:07
troy_s
You just learned about an issue didn't you? You have more skill.
19:07
troy_s
:)
19:14
Phrk_
I'm not sure to have understand eveyrthing
19:15
troy_s
?
19:15
Phrk_
This issue is for every software or only blender ?
19:16
Phrk_
(And except for the adobe suite, I don't know any software that share the project like you said)
19:17
Phrk_
Always some little hack
19:17
Phrk_
that breaks everything
19:17
Phrk_
and make me mad
19:18
Phrk_
Maybe it's me, i was dumb enough to use software like vegas...
19:18
troy_s
Phrk_: You pick a tool that can perform according to needs.
19:18
troy_s
Once you understand the needs, some tools become rather useless.
19:18
Phrk_
Yes
19:19
Phrk_
When i saw vegas
19:19
Phrk_
it suite my needs with perfection
19:19
Phrk_
But i didnt know they make software with their foot
19:20
troy_s
Phrk_: Taking it back to the start, the Libre "situation" for NLEs and compositors for example, suffers from a lack of understanding.
19:20
troy_s
You have to understand the problem with a degree of depth to be able to understand existing solutions.
19:21
troy_s
Without that, everything looks just great.
19:21
Phrk_
Of course
19:22
Phrk_
I'm not saying everything is great
19:23
Phrk_
fortunately my needs are not very big
19:23
troy_s
No, but the issues you face
19:23
troy_s
I assure you
19:23
troy_s
are precisely the same issues someone with a great deal of experience faces
19:23
troy_s
you simply may not see them yet.
19:23
troy_s
Hence it takes a little learning here and there.
19:24
Phrk_
yes
19:28
troy_s
Phrk_: You should dig into that if you do motion picture work. There's plenty of stuff that you can learn that will greatly elevate your work and pipeline.
19:34
Phrk_
Interesting : https://github.com/kinoraw/kinoraw_repo
19:35
Phrk_
i will
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g3gg0
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Phrk_
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22:55
se6astian
good night
22:55
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away