01:05 | g3gg0 | left the channel | |
01:34 | fsteinel | left the channel | |
01:34 | fsteinel_ | joined the channel | |
01:46 | jucar | joined the channel | |
01:48 | intracube | changed nick to: intracube|away
| |
01:53 | comradekingu | joined the channel | |
02:00 | g3gg0 | joined the channel | |
04:44 | Bertl_oO | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
| |
04:44 | Bertl_oO | changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
| |
10:06 | ItsMeLenny | joined the channel | |
10:32 | g3gg0 | left the channel | |
10:50 | g3gg0 | joined the channel | |
10:55 | g3gg0 | left the channel | |
11:26 | fsteinel_ | changed nick to: fsteinel
| |
12:08 | aombk2 | http://nofilmschool.com/2015/08/odyssey7Q-7Qplus-high-speed-apple-prores-4k-uhd-firmware-update
| |
12:09 | Bertl_zZ | changed nick to: Bertl
| |
12:09 | Bertl | morning folks!
| |
12:19 | aombk2 | left the channel | |
12:20 | aombk2 | joined the channel | |
13:52 | antiatom | left the channel | |
14:40 | antiatom | joined the channel | |
14:42 | intracube|away | changed nick to: intracube
| |
15:34 | Phrk_ | joined the channel | |
15:38 | ItsMeLenny | left the channel | |
16:26 | se6astian|away | changed nick to: se6astian
| |
16:26 | se6astian | good day
| |
17:01 | Phrk_ | Some guy use the pocket blackmagic ?
| |
17:02 | Phrk_ | Curious to know if everything is working on a opensource workflow
| |
17:04 | se6astian | hi Phrk_, yes I use it
| |
17:04 | se6astian | but I wish there was a proper "open source workflow"....
| |
17:06 | Phrk_ | what you mean by proper ?
| |
17:06 | Phrk_ | ffmpeg can read the data, convert etc ?
| |
17:07 | Phrk_ | I use blender-vse, it enough for my work
| |
17:07 | Phrk_ | and 100000000000000x more stable than my 500$ software on windows
| |
17:08 | se6astian | sounds good, but once you start shooting raw the choices become a bit limiting
| |
17:09 | Phrk_ | I never used raw don't know anything about it
| |
17:10 | Bertl | off for now ... bbl
| |
17:10 | Bertl | changed nick to: Bertl_oO
| |
17:16 | Phrk_ | the choices to export you mean ?
| |
17:24 | se6astian | raw development and conversation mainly
| |
17:25 | se6astian | *conversion
| |
17:48 | comradekingu | left the channel | |
19:21 | troy_s | Ugh.
| |
19:21 | troy_s | se6astian: Curious as to your particular take on "limiting"
| |
19:22 | troy_s | se6astian: The issue is that raw workflows are new to 99.5% of most imagers, so the idea of using an NLE to output a text file is alien to most.
| |
19:22 | troy_s | se6astian: And the tools lack accordingly out of ignorance.
| |
19:23 | troy_s | Phrk_: Are you familiar with post production pipes?
| |
19:25 | Phrk_ | troy_s what do you mean by post production pipes ?
| |
19:26 | troy_s | Phrk_: How you handle an image from the point it is shot, through edit, through post.
| |
19:26 | troy_s | Phrk_: The reasons things get complex is because of that process and the "why"
| |
19:27 | Phrk_ | well i adapt my image/video for blender with ffmpeg
| |
19:28 | troy_s | The problem with that is that codecs are inherently limited on a number of fronts.
| |
19:28 | Phrk_ | But i'm used to cli convert, cause when i was on windows i use avisynth for massive convertion
| |
19:28 | troy_s | From bit depth (especially true in Blender) to colour transforms etc.
| |
19:29 | troy_s | You don't want to actually edit / cut on the raw (highest quality) frames.
| |
19:29 | Phrk_ | no 10bit color transforms in blender ?
| |
19:29 | troy_s | You can't do that sort of thing effectively in an NLE.
| |
19:30 | troy_s | (for a number of reasons that are more obvious if you have ever done any compositing.)
| |
19:30 | Phrk_ | What !?
| |
19:31 | troy_s | Just as I typed.
| |
19:31 | troy_s | Typical sources up to about 14 bit per channel require a deeper compositing buffer.
| |
19:31 | troy_s | So you ideally have a 32 bit float compositing buffer.
| |
19:32 | troy_s | If you couple that with say, a few hundred nodes in a compositing node chain, it is unworkable in an NLE.
| |
19:32 | Phrk_ | it's say blender support OpenEXR
| |
19:32 | troy_s | It does.
| |
19:33 | troy_s | But the VSE is a compartmentalized section and doesn't integrate with the compositor (for good reason)
| |
19:34 | Phrk_ | and if i use proxies
| |
19:34 | Phrk_ | and when the edit is finished
| |
19:34 | Phrk_ | i go to full raw and do color correction ?
| |
19:35 | troy_s | Almost can work, but there's a few hiccups in there.
| |
19:35 | troy_s | 1) if the file is a codec, it won't be getting decoded to full bit depth last I looked at the code. I believe it is always 420 8 bit in Blender.
| |
19:36 | Phrk_ | http://blendervelvets.org/en/velvet-revolver/ do you know this ?
| |
19:36 | troy_s | 2) You would need a method to ship a shot to the compositor that isn't currently possible
| |
19:37 | Phrk_ | the compositor of blender ?
| |
19:37 | Phrk_ | well 420 8 bit it's very weak
| |
19:37 | Phrk_ | indeed
| |
19:37 | troy_s | The real issue is that it is a solution to the wrong problem.
| |
19:38 | troy_s | The problem is that an NLE shouldn't be doing the work of imaging. It's a pacing / blocking / editing tool.
| |
19:38 | troy_s | A compositor or such tool is a much more appropriate place to be doing imaging, including the granularity and tools that an artist requires for such operations.
| |
19:39 | troy_s | So the real question is "How to get an edit out of an NLE and into a compositor, then conformed back into the final project shape when complete for grading?"
| |
19:39 | troy_s | Which is a slightly more complex and nuanced question.
| |
19:39 | Phrk_ | no
| |
19:39 | Phrk_ | Your question is buisness centered
| |
19:40 | Phrk_ | if you have a big team there is tool for that
| |
19:41 | troy_s | Uh no.
| |
19:41 | Phrk_ | opensource world is different you can do what you want, blender is not a common application, look the interface
| |
19:41 | troy_s | There's not a single tool in Libre land that even begins to deal with that.
| |
19:41 | Phrk_ | not libre
| |
19:41 | troy_s | It's a show stopper.
| |
19:41 | Phrk_ | Well if you have a big team, you have a lot of money, so give this money to a libre project :) and you get what you want
| |
19:42 | troy_s | The issue is more "tools" in that their scope is often crafted from an unfortunate lack of the full needs of a smaller project.
| |
19:42 | troy_s | (let alone medium sized project)
| |
19:42 | troy_s | It isn't about a big team. A short independent to independent feature needs that pipeline control.
| |
19:42 | troy_s | (And no, money doesn't solve Libre's problems. At all. Education does.)
| |
19:43 | Phrk_ | Why ?
| |
19:43 | Phrk_ | Why you want that piepline ?
| |
19:44 | Phrk_ | It's like protools, why every audio application need to be like protools ?
| |
19:45 | Phrk_ | Also i don't think there is compositor application for linux
| |
19:45 | troy_s | You need that pipeline.
| |
19:45 | Phrk_ | the only one i know is resolve
| |
19:45 | troy_s | (if you are interested in crafting motion pictures.)
| |
19:45 | Phrk_ | well i am interested
| |
19:46 | Phrk_ | but for me color grading in blender is sufficient
| |
19:46 | troy_s | Not useful in the VSE as it currently stands.
| |
19:46 | Phrk_ | im alone in my project, it's very small thing
| |
19:46 | troy_s | Problematic on a number of issues.
| |
19:46 | troy_s | You should probably learn a little more about the grading issues in that regard then.
| |
19:46 | troy_s | Do you use any overs / dissolves?
| |
19:48 | Phrk_ | yes maybe, but if blender team use blender vse, im sure there more than 420 8bit
| |
19:49 | Phrk_ | I need to practice a little bit to see to big problem
| |
19:49 | Phrk_ | What's for you a good and solid pipeline in the non-libre world ?
| |
19:49 | troy_s | Don't worry about libre / non libre.
| |
19:50 | troy_s | Just look at needs.
| |
19:50 | troy_s | The Blender foundation uses the VSE, but they often start with still based media, which is why the bit depth is greater.
| |
19:50 | troy_s | Codecs are problematic on a number of fronts.
| |
19:50 | troy_s | Further, if you do a dissolve or over operation in the VSE you have an issue in that the mix is incorrect.
| |
19:50 | troy_s | (linear versus nonlinear reference space issue)
| |
19:51 | Phrk_ | dissolve or over operation ? What is this ?
| |
19:52 | troy_s | Phrk_: Dissolve - when you fade one shot into another or to a solid colour.
| |
19:52 | troy_s | Phrk_: Over - a blend of something over top of another.
| |
19:53 | Phrk_ | I only do fade into a solid color
| |
19:53 | Phrk_ | can we do this in blender ?
| |
19:54 | troy_s | Hard to explain what some of the issues are.
| |
19:54 | troy_s | But let me show you via a very simple example.
| |
19:55 | troy_s | Phrk_: https://sketch.io/sketchpad/
| |
19:55 | troy_s | Open up the "Paintbrush" tool.
| |
19:56 | troy_s | Phrk_: Slide the "Size" to be a large brush.
| |
19:56 | troy_s | Phrk_: Change the colour by clicking on the hex values and choose a pure cyan by typing "00FFFF"
| |
19:57 | troy_s | Paint a large swatch of the cyan color.
| |
19:57 | troy_s | Now change your colour to pure red by clicking and typing "FF0000"
| |
19:57 | troy_s | then paint a single stroke over top.
| |
19:58 | troy_s | Phrk_: You should see this: https://sketch.io/render/sketch55c65166aa9c4.png
| |
20:00 | Phrk_ | ?
| |
20:00 | troy_s | Phrk_: See the result?
| |
20:00 | Phrk_ | yes
| |
20:00 | troy_s | Phrk_: See that dark "What the hell is that smudge around the brush" area?
| |
20:00 | troy_s | That's a result of a nonlinear reference space (colour mumbo jumbo)
| |
20:01 | troy_s | So when you do a mix in a nonlinear space of two images, you get mangled up math just like that.
| |
20:01 | troy_s | But it has plenty of tricky issues when you are dealing with a motion picture that I won't go into. There's no super simple way to solve that issue without some rather nuanced and carefully designed software.
| |
20:02 | Phrk_ | And you can't contribute and bug report to ehance the software ?
| |
20:02 | troy_s | (You can try that mix in the VSE and you will see similar results because the default reference mixing space is also nonlinear in Blender's VSE. You can of course change it, but it brings other issues.)
| |
20:02 | troy_s | It's not about bug reports.
| |
20:03 | Phrk_ | well "new feature"
| |
20:03 | troy_s | It's about having a community of artists that understand the issues and understand that it isn't about a single piece of software or a particular function.
| |
20:03 | troy_s | That simple example (ridiculously simple) actually explodes into many issues that not many folks are aware of when doing motion picture work.
| |
20:04 | troy_s | That leads to more bad software. More bad functions. And more horrible design.
| |
20:04 | Phrk_ | I understand
| |
20:04 | troy_s | Because it is largely an issue of data moving between software that is suitable for the needs.
| |
20:04 | Phrk_ | but maybe you ask to much thing to blender
| |
20:04 | troy_s | Rather like being able to go from say, Blender to Ardour.
| |
20:04 | Phrk_ | It's not a paint picture application
| |
20:04 | troy_s | You missed my point.
| |
20:04 | troy_s | That weird blending happens on images.
| |
20:04 | troy_s | As in motion picture images.
| |
20:05 | Phrk_ | Yes i understood
| |
20:05 | troy_s | The solution is very much possible, but the larger issue is that a non-linear editor shouldn't be doing that sort of thing.
| |
20:05 | troy_s | It should only be providing the 'blueprint' on how it should be done, then another piece of software should be doing the actual work.
| |
20:05 | troy_s | Has particular implications for grading.
| |
20:05 | troy_s | Etc.
| |
20:05 | Phrk_ | And if you use thing like after effect for doing this image thing ?
| |
20:05 | Phrk_ | or Natron ?
| |
20:06 | Phrk_ | Ah ok for grading
| |
20:06 | Phrk_ | Deep grading like halo and light thing you mean ?
| |
20:06 | troy_s | That issue actually has a relevance on both compositing (whatever tool you choose) and grading.
| |
20:07 | Phrk_ | Well I don't have the skill for that kind of grading
| |
20:07 | troy_s | You just learned about an issue didn't you? You have more skill.
| |
20:07 | troy_s | :)
| |
20:14 | Phrk_ | I'm not sure to have understand eveyrthing
| |
20:15 | troy_s | ?
| |
20:15 | Phrk_ | This issue is for every software or only blender ?
| |
20:16 | Phrk_ | (And except for the adobe suite, I don't know any software that share the project like you said)
| |
20:17 | Phrk_ | Always some little hack
| |
20:17 | Phrk_ | that breaks everything
| |
20:17 | Phrk_ | and make me mad
| |
20:18 | Phrk_ | Maybe it's me, i was dumb enough to use software like vegas...
| |
20:18 | troy_s | Phrk_: You pick a tool that can perform according to needs.
| |
20:18 | troy_s | Once you understand the needs, some tools become rather useless.
| |
20:18 | Phrk_ | Yes
| |
20:19 | Phrk_ | When i saw vegas
| |
20:19 | Phrk_ | it suite my needs with perfection
| |
20:19 | Phrk_ | But i didnt know they make software with their foot
| |
20:20 | troy_s | Phrk_: Taking it back to the start, the Libre "situation" for NLEs and compositors for example, suffers from a lack of understanding.
| |
20:20 | troy_s | You have to understand the problem with a degree of depth to be able to understand existing solutions.
| |
20:21 | troy_s | Without that, everything looks just great.
| |
20:21 | Phrk_ | Of course
| |
20:22 | Phrk_ | I'm not saying everything is great
| |
20:23 | Phrk_ | fortunately my needs are not very big
| |
20:23 | troy_s | No, but the issues you face
| |
20:23 | troy_s | I assure you
| |
20:23 | troy_s | are precisely the same issues someone with a great deal of experience faces
| |
20:23 | troy_s | you simply may not see them yet.
| |
20:23 | troy_s | Hence it takes a little learning here and there.
| |
20:24 | Phrk_ | yes
| |
20:28 | troy_s | Phrk_: You should dig into that if you do motion picture work. There's plenty of stuff that you can learn that will greatly elevate your work and pipeline.
| |
20:34 | Phrk_ | Interesting : https://github.com/kinoraw/kinoraw_repo
| |
20:35 | Phrk_ | i will
| |
20:37 | g3gg0 | joined the channel | |
21:32 | Phrk_ | left the channel | |
23:55 | se6astian | good night
| |
23:55 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
|