#apertus IRC Channel Logs

morning folks!

off for now ... bbs

good evening

Apertus might be interested in Alexima's latest sensor - LUX160

No NDA as far as I'm aware, but no public quotes.

(so we can check if it would work on the Beta)

it probably can work on the Beta, but not anywhere near the full speed

good evening everyone

meeting is imminent? :)

yes

lets go through the flyer text first

ok

while I think its good to have the term "filmmakers" in there somewhere

does a cinema camera buyer know what a "FOSS/OH ethos" is?

lets phrase that out as well

se6astian: "worldwide community of camera users and specialists"

well it sounds strange that "users" created something

I thought about 'enthusiasts', but that sounds too amateur

maybe?

what professions?

"different kinds of professions" - sounds a bit wordy/vague

users and makers?

users and designers?

intracube: designer sound like graphic

:D

davidak: hm, yeah I guess

and it seems like there should be at least one extra comma in the first sentence

feel free to add it :)

"Designed by a worldwide community of film-makers, camera experts and technical specialists" ?

a normal videographer who goes to a store and picks one camera wouldn't consider the axiom beta

do we have much people with a free software / open hardware / free culture background?

i would consider myself one :)

I think the majority of the people involved have a background in open src

"Designed by a worldwide community of film-makers, camera experts and open source entusiasts"?

sounds good

that would include Linux people and programmers

although that's now several mentions of open source

intracube: just throw in a poll later

"All device schematics have been made publicly available in conjunction with the Free Open Source Software/Open Hardware ethos. " is just to explain what open source means

we need to also tender this flyer to be for non OS aware people....

so it fits

se6astian: yep, that would be better imo

it is too long

or "software source code" ?

code

thanks

or are there any concerns about the word still?

i think it was resolved

upgrade instead of replace also means less waste, etc.

of course we cant claim we will save the planet with a few cameras but its the message that counts

in the right direction

how can we word that to also include videographers, vision people?

agreed

?

right

"provides the building blocks"

or one device?

well the modules are each blocks to put together

the beta as well

oh, I thought the Beta was a closed unit

is there going to be an image nearby that shows the modular aspect of the camera?

here are the modules that are currently in development at the bottom

is that a render or a photoshop/gimp job?

3D rendering i think

the lens and sockets might be a photograph

i hope it get's thinner

I always liked this concept render: https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/project/AXIOM_GAMMA-website-banner-01.jpg

agreed

next point: Super35/APS-C format

might be worth putting the latter in brackets?

fine for me

so photo and video people recognize it

at least the width dimension

actually, if APS-C is 3:2, it is a bit different

maybe better left as is

right, we are through the text!

yep :)

yep

now we have the logos

and the logos without text

yes ;)

yes

or the logos by themselves could be horizontal and centred?

and much less in the others

and the logos + text could be as they are now (stacked), but also centreed?

are there any better CMV12000, FPGA, ARM images? they're not that consistent in style right now

it was only to test how it looks

to have icons for that informations in general

but that would be way too much information

remove?

I'll need to enable JavaScript

yep. working here

its really realtime

I can't figure out how to delete

and press Entf.

i don't know how select multiple elements

ah, thanks

I couldn't select multiple elements when drawing primitive shapes

its a challenge

do you want it to be static or something like a flowpanel / carousel with slight rotation?

but i'm not a designer

i have to look up an example

maybe like this now?

we don't have hundesds of icons

it's not about amount, they can just oscillate slightly, if there is less space available

:D

:)

too much UI development at work ;)

hi Bertl, we are still discussing the Flyer

what's the 'current' text?

added layout draft

but I think the text is really good now

is my input appreciated? :)

I'm missing the 'never obsolete' part for the hardware

once posted here its public....

excellent!

i think "Dual Core ARM" would be more accurate

Present

se6astian, when you get a reply from Alexima/Luxima(same founder/employees), please PM me with the prices/whatever they give you for the LUX160

project or situation and the open interfaces allow to extend those as needed.

maybe extend and complement those

okay, length is an issue? or do we just want to keep it as short as possible?

otherwise it overloads people with infos

"and extendable plug-in interfaces (up to 12 Gbps bandwidth)"

good

great

what do you thing about the ARM sentence?

yep Dual Core Arm is better

the question is, if we should mention the arm separately

because it is part of the Xilinx ZYNQ

the beta is not special because it uses a CPU or ARM, so i think not

we have other interesting stuff on the Beta

maybe have:

then mention the Lattice routing fabric and the Microchip PICs

and finally add a sentence for IMU or so?

we are already short on space now...

and just write Dual Core ARM Linux inside

"Firmware based on GNU/Linux"

actually Arch/Linux :)

but yes, I agree, GNU/Linux is very Richard!

i have a picture of him on the wall

holding a sign: "With free software you have freedom"

yep

?

very nice

yes

otherwise we let ray take a go

we made good progress the last days :)

text above icon says "Icons are just drafts for now, should have simplified design that is the same style:"

se6astian: the paragraph for the sensor spec is a bit long compared to the other two

words like pixel could be removed?

you mean with pixel removed?

removing pixels is fine

but we can go back to fps

just not sure if people will understand

ok

bathtub!

^ something like that

yes

i.e. I would put the MicroZed, Xilinx, Lattice, Microchip and Cmosis logo there

and just have the text use the specifica, like Zynq, PIC, CMV12k

those technically interested will know what it means

and those not interested might recognise the company logos

also both

i would say realtime

okay, move on to the GSoC project brainstorming?

from the translation, i think "real time" means something else

Made comments for the ones that were hardcoded into images

You can give suggestion rights if you dont want errors fixed

se6astian: Try reading that sentence now, it makes no sense

The part i removed did nothing

I could make suggestions

we just concluded the meeting that deals with writing this text

we discussed that several time

hey _florent_!

"The world’s first, fully open source and open hardware motion picture camera system. Devised to be completely modular and repairable and designed by a worldwide community of film-makers, camera experts and open source enthusiasts. All device schematics and software source code have been made publicly available. Not just a camera, the AXIOM Beta is a constantly evolving, sustainable hardware and software ecosystem. With Interchangeable lens

Well, my argument is what it is, not how it came to be that way

thanks intracube

completely, fully, deviced and enthusiasts can be done away with

ok flyer meeting concluded

ok

so GSoC is on!

yay

:)

and I have to admit I have doubts if we can still finish everything in the next 22hours

this was my rough layout idea: http://i.imgur.com/kGVtBkk.png

yeah, well, autodesk will help to speed up the kicad transition

what the hell, i have missed the point in time when autodesk bought it

so the application text is pretty much finished

the biggest thing google reviews is the idea page

se6astian: i have read it, it's ok

it was "an okay" software to use before

i used target3001 before, was never big friend of eagle user experience

great!

google doc?

sure

shoot

I d say 3 max

as many as we get and we can handle

more = better

which students can apply, just from austria and surrounding or from evrywhere?

it doesn't mean that we have to put them all on GSoC :)

so I added the 4K HDMI fpga code as idea in the lab workboard already

for future interactive webinterfaces, etc.

isn't nodejs that thing which didn't work?

is there already something like a remote app for android?

hackmd yes

so I don't think java is a good idea _on_ the camera

:d

nodejs is javascript

it would need lot's of RAM :D

okay, so brainstorming!!!

what would you want somebody to develop for the Beta

ever

and still android is one of the best selling plattforms :D

the remote software

Qt, maybe

the software running on the remote

like the one with which i can control my canon DSLR from my smartphone

well, smartphone apps have to be made with their own SDKs

yes

but maybe the remote uses the API?

so we need that first

slower than realtime camera internal hdmi overlay text and primitive drawing framework

(minus live view)

"ESP32 bluetooth communication demo" added

ESP32 wouldn't be fast enough for live view though, would it?

collecting ideas from brainstorming here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7BxN4UFok-JP47zsJ2w6oAErJ1aFpHtssCNx4dB9P0/edit

davidak: no hardware yet

ok

it could be useful for static recording, when you don't need very fast preview

BAndiT1983: the Beta itself doesn't have either, but we have an ESP32 shield in the works which does both and we can use USB dongles for Wifi/BT

added

I've got some debayering code

it's not very good though

i've added simple linear debayering and was on to adding SHOODAK, but priorities changed half a year ago

I don't really contribute to hw projects I don't own

herbert can we control the fan speed on the microzed yet in software?

but we don't have an implementation yet

it is controlled by one of the routing fabrics

and focus

is there

there are some command-line tools in the repo, should the get some UI?

good idea

Made a comment with a suggestion for the text

REST API?

Bertl: would that be called REST-API?

then all kind of client side apps can use that

regardless of what underlying language or presentation

my preference would actually be C

C has some problems you see in current OSS like openssl

davidak: what problems do you expect for a REST api?

someone hacks your camera because of buffer overflows and stuff

well, they don't need a buffer overflow to hack it? :)

I like the idea of Rust, just that it doesn't seem the easiest thing to learn

enough brainstorming?

yeah, I don't have a problem with Rust either ... I'm just worried that we will not find a Rust hacker :)

we should use languages which have established over years

so now we need to break it down

okay, so I propose we create 'new' tasks for each of them in the Lab with a common structure

and incorporate old tasks with similar/related stuff

well, we don't want to lose any of those ideas, no?

we can still cherry pick those for GSoC

please make a note in the google doc if you can think of mentoring any of these projects

zebra or peaking or similar is best done in the FPGA in realtime

yes; I meant zebras and peaking are very similar in the backend, so they can be grouped in a single project

stuff like frames or grids too, they do not even need input data

Could add some shadows from the camera onto the backdrop?

That's music to my ears... :)

i also could supervise the REST API

just don't know at the moment where it should be put, as i haven't looked in the camera code yet

BAndiT1983: dont worry about that

agreed

some parts maybe, others hardly

Btw, the oshwa cert is no longer self-certification, and it costs money. Im pretty sure they own the blue gear logo and use it for that

or do you want to carry it over to himalayas ;)

oh ok

How about including some test shot imagery, there was a nice video of some trees yesterday, could use a still from that

It is a bit "concept art" CGI heavy atm

se6astian: which reminds me that the OSHWA cert logo should be on the flyer as well, probably also OSHpark

Bertl: we have the open source hardware logo, maybe replace that?

I would mark the typical FPGA parts separately (not as requires hardware)

because FPGA/HDL designs can and should be tested with simulations

of course, the final code will be integrated and tested on real hardware as well

yes, that's the idea

All the logos are for the initiated. It would be good to provide some starter info, cheif among which is the copyleft logo, which is instantly recognisable as not standard copyright

time for jenkins CI i think

Bertl: please mark the tasks that are FPGA related but do not require special hardware

with the symbol I do not see except for a binary code :)

(i don't like Jenkins because it's too complicated)

Bertl: yes that one :)

se6astian: Can it be RYF licensed?

we don't do any DRM and we do not actively support it in the hardware/software AFAIK

should we scrap node/Python API in favor of native language?

I think a python interface would still be a good idea

or already a REST client

I really like this folding orange thing on the logo https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/logo-history.jpg

what about performance?

what about Elmyra? could Simon mentor some tasks of it?

for example, the sensor simulation for me has three different levels

medium: simulate the data and timing behaviour of the sensor including data related registers

similar is true for most of the FPGA related parts

students could work as a team

I gave you edit access

okay, let's take a short break ... I could use something to eat as well

next step is adding one lab task per idea with brief description and a list of prerequisites, description of programming skills needed and estimation of difficulty level.

ok

alright

depends on what do you want to achieve through it

like tethered shooting

microcontroller unit

what microcontroller do you mean?

Zynq 7020

usually people use like node.js or python to get REST on their embedded hardware

javascript on embedded hardware = death

here is also node.js as example for some Zync present -> https://docs.resin.io/installing/gettingStarted-Zynq-ZC702/

you know that javascript and java are 2 different things? node.js is based in Google V8 and is driven by C++

we should forbid the letter -> J, V and A as they are evil :D

*letters

on camera-side we could implement in C++, client-side doesn't really matter then

Keep the number of software which needs to be updated and maintained low, to reduce the effort needed

also remember we need maintainers

if we get a student that likes Rust and provide amazing code, we still need someone to maintain it in the future

and someone who reviews the code in the first place :)

i can review the code if necessary, it's almost my daily task in my job

yes, for rust that's not so easy I think (tough I agree that would be great actually)

a systems programming language that runs blazingly fast, prevents segfaults, and guarantees thread safety.

well, it's not trivial to read/write :)

i think it's just a modern language and C is very old…

:D instead of milk?

don't underestimate C, it's still very good

do we have C++ support?

one point is also that you can code faster in Ruby, Python and i think Go than C or C++

or do it like the Linux Kernel and code object oriented without language support

faster execution depends on many things, especially first execution can take much longer

(I'm not really a programmer. just know python and perl ;))

what i know is that Go software is amazing since the programmers are very entusiastic about it :)

like Syncthing, Grafana, ...

it also depends on the usage case, imho

is it bleeding again?

but who knows what bugs there are

i see that openssl is progressing and there was new release a couple of days ago

that's a complicated topic, the language does not guarantee that thing

i've seen people writing in C#, like they were used to in C, and it was very awkward and slow

C is still number one, at least according to TIOBE rating

Java is also used very often

yes, but i meant it more in hardware development related way

when you have to write more code in C for the same task than you can have more bugs in it

but the trade-off is performacne for example

yes and also disadvantages too

okay, so let's continue with the task at hand (pun intented)

let's break the task list down and get some descriptions and classifications done

you can also select comparison to Go at the bottom

so a quick grep/wc (not so easy with a google doc) gives meL

(note that there are overlaps)

which tells me, that we probably have to drop a bunch of 'my' tasks to stay realistic

i.e. where there is more than one mentor

hm, not many overlaps

not good we need more

I think the kernel driver tasks are probably very appealing for GSoC folks

to do or to mentor?

so maybe we should simply vote for the tasks?

(is the time also payd for the mentor?)

google also has some recommendations about the projects/ideas

google pays 500$ to the org for every mentored student

really

we have to do some preparation, that was just an underestimation, a lot of preparation

:D

Fun/Peripheral: These projects might not be related to the current core development focus, but create new innovations and new perspective for your project.