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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/10/07

Timezone: UTC


00:13
ctag_
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ctag
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00:34
Even
Bertl_zZ: sorry got lost in time.. 3d modeling/cad actions =) sure i can send you the tablet but it should be the same price if you order it from austria (eu). the only thing that might differ is the shipment price to austria?! 5-10� correct me if i'm wrong =)
00:36
Even
gotta hit the sack as well. good night
00:37
Even
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00:42
ctag_
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ctag_
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00:54
ctag_
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01:23
dmjnova
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02:17
intracube
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05:08
Gegsite
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05:14
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
05:14
Bertl
morning folks!
05:49
Gegsite
mrnng
05:55
Gegsite
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06:25
macbookprocmc
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06:39
philippej
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06:43
Bertl
morning philippej!
06:57
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
06:57
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
07:13
macbookprocmc
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07:13
philippej
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07:24
pizthewiz
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07:31
danieel
Bertl_oO: why are these things apples and oranges? you can pretty nicely compare IIS with Apache, and xrite i1display with ColorHug ... one shall be not afraid of comparison of oss with proprietary systems
07:44
danieel
would like to see some specs for the beta module interface - when is that planned to be released?
07:48
danieel
regnirps: a color wheel coupled with bw sensor seems to be interesting also in terms of color science - if your subject is steady, you could make basically a 2D colorimeter with lighting the scene with narrow band lights (leds, or lasers) to get a lot better colors (using more than 3 primaries)
07:48
g3gg0
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07:54
pizthewiz
Has there been any discussion of what image processing operations will be performed on the FPGA? I am guessing exposure, temperature, white balance, but hoping we can jump in and implement our own, no?
08:00
mars_
pizthewiz: basically you can do whatever you like on the fpga frontend
08:01
pizthewiz
Very exciting indeed, I took a quick look at the wiki but didn't see much mention - is there some documentation I'm skipping over?
08:03
mars_
i guess, for the beta there will be much more information online. the alpha was more or less a proof of concept
08:03
mars_
but you can browse the vhdl code for the alpha online
08:04
mars_
and of course, all the source coe for the beta will be available online too
08:04
mars_
+d
08:05
mars_
so can extend/alter the code and create your own firmware
08:06
pizthewiz
Great, I'll have a bit more of a think about it in the morning and might jump on the campaign in its waning moments then.
08:07
mars_
you are welcome :)
08:07
pizthewiz
I haven't done any image processing on an FPGA but have a fair amount of CPU and shader experience, it'll be interesting to see what sorts of things are doable in a reasonable timeframe
08:07
pizthewiz
Thank you!
08:11
mars_
if you have more in-depth questions about the fpga, you should ask Bertl_oO, he is our fpga whiz
08:18
pizthewiz
From a high-level, I have a shader pipeline I'm running on captured content as a post-process, a mix of corrective and artistic look and I'm thinking through what if any of that could be moved to the FPGA.
08:26
pizthewiz
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08:35
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
08:35
se6astian
good morning
08:45
danieel
morning... se6astian do you thing there will be a specs for beta add on modules released soon?
08:50
aquaratbak
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08:53
PhilippeJ
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aquarat2
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09:10
se6astian
danieel: what addon module idea did you have in mind?
09:15
danieel
high speed output for native res raw
09:16
se6astian
what interface standard would that be?
09:25
danieel
mechanical constraints will define that
09:27
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
09:28
Bertl
the specs will be released as soon as we fix the interface
09:32
mikea
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09:32
Bertl
welcome mikea!
09:38
mikea
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09:47
intracube_afk
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09:48
Nikolay
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09:48
Nikolay
Hi
09:49
Nikolay
When will the sales of this camera?
09:51
se6astian
Hi Nikolay, the crowdfunding campaign runs for another 45 hours
09:52
se6astian
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/5022798
09:56
Bertl
the Beta will be completed in Q1 next year, and we will probably start selling it in Q2/Q3
10:03
Gegsite
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10:11
philippej2
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10:13
Gegsite
so I guess the end will be <15.000â¬
10:13
Nikolay
Se6astian, In Russia, it will be possible to order?
10:18
Gegsite
meant 115.000â¬
10:19
Bertl
Nikolay: yes, I do not see why not
10:20
Nikolay
Ok
10:20
Nikolay
Thank you
10:20
Bertl
Gegsite: how so?
10:20
Bertl
Nikolay: you're welcome!
10:23
Gegsite
I looking the campain
10:23
danieel
Bertl: because of customs office, you will have a lot of fun with them :)
10:23
Nikolay
Thought sanctions simply)))))
10:25
Nikolay
Sorry for the bad english)
10:25
Bertl
no problem, we'll manage to communicate
10:26
Bertl
well, I guess we will find a way ...
10:28
ch3f
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10:29
Nikolay
=))))
10:30
Nikolay
нÑÑ
10:30
Nikolay
ой yes
10:31
Bertl
welcome ch3f!
10:32
rceed
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10:32
rceed
yo
10:32
rceed
people
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rceed
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10:54
Gegsite
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11:05
ch3f
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11:40
PhilippeJ
By the way, I had this crazy idea last night, that might be interesting to some. Reading this : http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2014/10/06/the-skeptics-guide-to-low-fidelity-prototyping/ I think we could ask people to build their own dream camera using low fidelity prototyping technique. Nintendo example here : http://www.smashingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/nintendo-low-fidelity-prototyping.jpg
12:03
Gegsite
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philippej2
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Gegsite
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12:27
se6astian
funny comment on the NFS article
12:27
se6astian
"It looks promising. but remember Red One took about 2 years after release to become stable and that's with the backing of a billion dollar company. This may be digital bolex but better, but again, I unfortuately long for the days where the camera comes out then you buy it - not crowdsourcing the money from random people. I think Ouya and other tech released this way has disappointed many and the ability to raise millions this way is more and
12:28
se6astian
a few minutes later: "I take back everything I said - this is an exciting project and a worthwhile investment if the camera can deliver. This is the future - the internet and crowdfunding and how new technology can be made not with the support of bigger hands but with young smart talent. I think this could be a hit product - but of course, meet all new ideas that aren't out yet with healthy skepticism.
12:31
mars_
nobody knows where the money for the ouya went. apparently not into the hardware
12:31
mars_
or anything technical
13:03
Nikolay
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13:14
se6astian
they showed a big office with lots of glass walls in their crowdfunding video :)
13:14
se6astian
bet that was expensive
13:15
mars_
:D
13:17
intracube
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13:22
Bertl
they probably ran out of money right after they bought the office :)
13:32
aombk
why? isnt ouya out yet?
13:33
comradekingu
random people... i think these, and myself included are very low entrophy people
13:36
mars_
aombk: it is, but it's a joke
13:36
aombk
wont you be buying big offices with lots of glass walls?
13:36
mars_
low quality, bad engineering
13:37
Bertl
yeah, I think we should get big offices with wall sized virtual windows
13:38
comradekingu
i only saw ouya outside E3 on the parking lot with a stand
13:38
comradekingu
not that i was there, but that seems low-budget enough
13:39
aombk
crowd funding is loosing peoples trust because of many bad projects
13:39
aombk
you can call some of them scams
13:41
mars_
that's sad but true
13:41
Bertl
well, I guess that is like everywhere else, you have a small group of individuals who abuse the system (or create mistrust and bad reputation)
13:43
aombk
its not sad for me i never really liked crowd funding
13:46
aombk
and i dont think its a small group of individuals that abuse the system
13:46
aombk
the system has abuse built in
13:47
aombk
inherits it to the users
13:51
Bertl
maybe ...
13:51
Bertl
anyway, have to take a short nap ... bbl
13:52
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
14:06
se6astian
some people expressed concern about our plans because of how the digital bolex development went after their crowdfunding
14:07
se6astian
funny that I had exactly this fear the day they launched their campaign and I saw their plans
14:08
se6astian
anyway
14:08
se6astian
gotta go too :)
14:08
se6astian
see you
14:14
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
15:11
PhilippeJ
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15:33
regnirps
danieel: Had not thought about it in a long time, but with monochrome sensor you could even illuminate with a continuous source (incandescent) throuh a monochromator and take as amny spectral slices as you want. Or a continuous dichroic color wheel and get th color data pretty quickly at high frame rate.
16:06
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
16:06
Bertl
back now ...
16:22
cfelton
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mithro
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pizthewiz
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16:48
dmjnova
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16:48
dmjnova
woot! stretch goal 2 funded!
16:48
mars_
yeah!
16:53
mithro
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16:54
aombk
nice!
16:55
aombk
what about stretch goal 4?
16:59
aombk
what shall it be?
17:01
cfelton
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17:06
comradekingu
aombk: hotshoe with viewfinder?
17:07
gocooldawg
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17:08
gocooldawg
hello everyone! awesome project and would love to help out!
17:09
gocooldawg
specifically hardware/FPGA design
17:09
mars_
hey gocooldawg!
17:10
gocooldawg
hey bert1! sebastien asked me to get in touch with you.
17:10
Bertl
hey gocooldawg! good to hear!
17:11
gocooldawg
a little about myself: am an engineer working in USA and have been working on film projects for the last coupla years...
17:13
gocooldawg
please let me know how i can help. thanks!
17:13
Bertl
sounds good! yeah, there is a lot of stuff which can be done, especially in the hardware/FPGA area
17:14
Bertl
did you take a look at the AXIOM alpha hardware/software yet?
17:16
gocooldawg
have taken a quick look. is there something specific that i should focus on?
17:16
Bertl
no, just that you get an idea what we have done so far and how it is designed
17:17
Bertl
okay, so where would you like to help out, hardware or FPGA?
17:18
g3gg0
â¬120,000 - Active Canon EF Mount
17:18
Bertl
\o/
17:18
g3gg0
congrats :)
17:18
g3gg0
a lot of work for you ;)
17:18
Bertl
indeed
17:19
gocooldawg
oh ok. let me look in more detail. i can work on the FPGA more easily being remote and all.
17:19
Bertl
no problem, take your time!
17:20
Bertl
@FPGA makes sense, what FPGA platforms do you have available?
17:23
gocooldawg
i can obtain the xilinx/altera ones. will need to understand what the project specs are, etc. Where is the documentation for the alpha? I have just browsed through this site so far but haven't been able to get a handle on the documentation.
17:24
Bertl
https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema
17:25
Bertl
the source is the documentation (mostly) we have some software aspects explained on the wiki though
17:25
Bertl
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=AXIOM_Alpha_Software
17:26
gocooldawg
ok cool. let me get started on understanding that and i will ping you guys back. is there somebody else who is working on the FPGA that I contact?...i have another colleague at my company who does image processing stuff whom i can bug if needed :)
17:27
g3gg0
which design tool do you use for circuitry?
17:28
g3gg0
dont know .ipt
17:28
g3gg0
ah thats mechanical only
17:29
Bertl
yeah, we currently use Eagle, but we plan to switch to KiCad
17:29
Bertl
(for schematic/layout)
17:29
Bertl
on the FPGA side, we use Vivado for the Zynq
17:30
Bertl
(WebPack in commandline mode)
17:30
Bertl
we have a number of folks who helped with the FPGA part, I'll make sure to get us all together in the near future
17:31
Bertl
gocooldawg: basic coordination and communication is via IRC (you already managed that)
17:31
Bertl
second best channel is via eMail (we will have a bug/feature tracker soon)
17:33
Bertl
gocooldawg: did you reserve an AXIOM Beta for you already? if so, you might want to get a MicroZed or PicoZed with a Zynq-7020 for FPGA coding/testing
17:33
gocooldawg
sounds good. i am new to irc :). I am looking at the RTL files on github and this is something i am super familiar with and can get started esily once i understand more.
17:33
gocooldawg
yes, will do that today.
17:33
Bertl
great! regarding IRC, you're probably using the web interface, yes?
17:34
gocooldawg
yes.
17:34
Bertl
there are a number of nice IRC clients out there, which make life a little easier
17:34
aombk
https://www.opticsinfobase.org/ao/abstract.cfm?uri=ao-53-13-C14#
17:34
Bertl
some with gui, like Pidgin, Xchat, etc and some without, like irssi
17:35
aombk
http://www.golem.de/news/bildsensor-chip-sieht-mehr-farben-als-das-menschliche-auge-1410-109655.html
17:35
Bertl
gocooldawg: do not hesitate to ask me if something is unclear
17:36
Bertl
aombk: looking forward to those sensors, but I guess it will take some time till we see one with proper open documentation
17:36
gocooldawg
Bert1: sounds good. let me explore a bit and i will get back to you in a day or two. thanks and am super excited!
17:39
Bertl
you're welcome! and we are super excited too!
17:40
gocooldawg
Bert1: please add me to the email list. sebastian has my id.
17:42
Bertl
simply subscribe to the development list, but I let se6astian know when he is back
17:43
Bertl
btw, the character at the end of my nick is a lower case 'L' not a '1'
17:43
Bertl
hard to tell apart on most clients, I know ...
17:44
gocooldawg
Bertl: oops, sorry :)....will subscribe to the development list
17:47
Bertl
no problem, I usually respond to Bert1, Berti and other similar variations as well :)
17:50
gocooldawg
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18:03
surami
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18:03
Bertl
wb surami!
18:04
surami
congrats for the campaign!
18:04
Bertl
thanks! and thanks to all who contributed and will contribute!
18:18
surami
i have an idea, but i'm not an engineer
18:19
Bertl
let's hear
18:19
Bertl
all ideas are welcome
18:20
surami
but first i have a question
18:20
surami
will that remote controll
18:21
surami
used for focusing with that potmeters
18:21
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
18:21
surami
i think about that wheels on the left side
18:21
Bertl
if there is focus support on the lens, that might be used for this purpose I guess
18:22
Bertl
but do not take the image literally, it is an old design
18:22
surami
yes i thought that
18:22
Bertl
se6astian uploaded an updated image recently (Updates section)
18:22
surami
i ask this because
18:23
surami
what whould be if some kind of potmeter or i don't know could be connected
18:23
surami
to smartphones, tablets etc.
18:23
surami
through headphone jack port
18:23
surami
like this the lumu: http://www.lu.mu/
18:24
Bertl
headphone is probably a little tricky, because it is an output
18:25
Bertl
but let's assume there is a solution, maybe with external battery, to connect some kind of device to the smartphones
18:26
Bertl
if there is software support, the settings could be relayed to the camera of course
18:27
surami
ok, I understand
18:27
surami
i'm not a technican
18:27
surami
i just thought about it to keep things as simple as it can be
18:59
se6astian
I updated the image of the remote controller
18:59
se6astian
fresh new rendering :)
19:11
regnirps
Nice numbers! Is that total the amount pledged for imediate use, or the total when units ship and the rest of the payments come in? In other words, on a campaign like this how much of that total do you have to work with?
19:12
Bertl
we basically have the amount contributed, minus fees, minus buttons, t-shirts and shipping
19:13
regnirps
You can take the data to the bank and get a loan on the ballance perhaps? Like a startup showing the financial people that they already have a purchase order?
19:13
Bertl
there will be a little additional gain from the 20% off perks
19:14
Bertl
we do not plan to take any loans, we work on the money we have available
19:15
Bertl
or to be precise, on the resources we have available
19:15
Bertl
that's how it usually works in FOSS/OH, and it worked well so far
19:15
regnirps
Good deal. Crowdfunding is prety interesting.
19:17
regnirps
I likely will not be able to buy in before the period closes but the OS is really attaractive and gives me some ideas. Do you think it will be possible to buy housings and the base electronics to which I can add a specialized sensor?
19:18
Bertl
all the parts will be available for purchase in some or the other way
19:18
Bertl
and yes, you can design your own special sensor board and attach it to the rest
19:18
Bertl
even if it uses some very proprietary sensor :)
19:18
regnirps
Very nice. This migth be the solution I need.
19:20
philippej
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19:20
regnirps
I have been researchig some very specilized imaging and need to use quartz optics in some and saphire/NaCl optica in another with special sensors. The compact platform would seal the deal.
19:21
Bertl
i.e. outside the visible spectrum, yes?
19:21
Bertl
(NaCl hints towards IR)
19:22
Bertl
(Quartz more to UV)
19:22
philippej
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19:23
philippej
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19:25
regnirps
Yes. Very broad spectrum imaging of large areas.
19:27
niemand
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19:27
Bertl
welcome niemand!
19:28
niemand
hi Bertl
19:37
surami
Bertl, do you have any plans to continue the crowdfundig campaign? i think there are many people out there, who heard nothing about this...
19:38
niemand
and any plans to provide payment options without Paypal? :)
19:39
Bertl
surami: there will always be folks who haven't heard of the Beta
19:40
Bertl
we could probably do that forever ...
19:40
Bertl
niemand: I'm sure we can arrange something via wiretransfer, as the campaign goal has been reached
19:40
niemand
or cash :D
19:41
Bertl
yeah, if you meet with me or se6astian in the next 35 hours, why not
19:42
Bertl
(for getting a perk, for the camera itself, of course, cash will be an option too)
19:44
aombk
will there be a 4th stretch goal?
19:44
KurtAugust
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19:44
Bertl
interesting question :)
19:44
Bertl
wb KurtAugust!
19:45
niemand
well, where can I usually meet you, se6astian ?
19:45
niemand
or, private chat
19:46
Bertl
I'm currently nearby st.poelten, more precisely laaben
19:46
Bertl
se6astian is located in vienna
19:46
niemand
bäh
19:46
niemand
:)
19:46
Bertl
where are you?
19:47
Bertl
and yes, probably let's take this private
19:47
KurtAugust
Hi! Congrats on the funding! (trying out irc client so I don't need to scroll down the logs all day)
19:47
niemand
vienna, that's why I asked for payment per cash :)
19:47
Bertl
so se6astian shouldn't be a problem for you
19:47
Bertl
KurtAugust: great!
19:47
Bertl
and thanks!
19:48
Bertl
aombk: check the indiegogo site :)
19:49
niemand
btw, saw your exhibit at the MQ
19:50
Bertl
excellent! did you like it?
19:52
aombk
great stretch goal!
19:52
aombk
too bad it wont be reached
19:53
KurtAugust
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19:55
philippej
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19:58
KurtAugust
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19:58
niemand
Bertl: well, it looks nice. but to understand what's going on and what's showed some more background is needed
19:59
jucar
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19:59
Bertl
ask away, I'll try to answer
19:59
jucar
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20:00
Bertl
(doesn't help with the exhibit, but maybe it helps you :)
20:00
niemand
but way better than all the other exhibitions from der angewandten
20:01
Bertl
glad to hear!
20:04
comradekingu
put a questionmark at 150 just to have something in store
20:05
KurtAugust
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KurtAugust
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20:08
aombk
betrl, a usb3 device that uses for example 2 usb3 ports of a laptop has double bandwidth or are there controller bandwidth bottlenecks?
20:08
KurtAugust
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20:10
Bertl
depends on the controller, but usb3 is very complicated (JFYI)
20:21
wescotte
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20:23
g3gg0
i worked with USB2 once. would not dare to touch USB3. debugging was hell and with small mistakes in isotransfers it was possible to trash host controller driver on windows.
20:23
g3gg0
but thats a personal decision :D
20:24
Bertl
yeah, USB3 in controlled environment (i.e. host and client) is already complicated enough
20:25
KurtAugust
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20:29
g3gg0
definitely
20:29
KurtAugust
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20:31
Gegsite
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20:32
Bertl
wb Gegsite!
20:33
Gegsite
Hello Bertl
20:35
theuberkevlar
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20:38
g3gg0
hi
20:39
Bertl
wb theuberkevlar!
20:39
niemand
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20:42
theuberkevlar
howdy!
20:42
theuberkevlar
Congrats on the second stretch goal!
20:43
Bertl
thanks!
20:43
theuberkevlar
Maybe we should do a 180,000 stretch goal for 4k Internal recording. ;)
20:43
Bertl
then nobody will want the Gamma :)
20:45
theuberkevlar
haha!
20:45
theuberkevlar
All the people that didn't get a beta in time will.
20:46
KurtAugust
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20:46
theuberkevlar
The PC recording solution seems pretty interesting though
20:46
Bertl
the 20k perk is still there *hint* :)
20:48
KurtAugust
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20:57
wescotte
hah
20:57
theuberkevlar
I'll just sell my car and all of my gear real quick.
20:57
theuberkevlar
haha
21:03
surami
PC recording solution?
21:05
surami
full sensor size in DNG (or maybe MLV) format?
21:06
surami
I mean continously video?
21:08
se6astian
that would be the plan yes
21:10
surami
thats sounds really interesting
21:13
surami
in eg. 25 fps it's a huge data, ca. 22 MB * 25 = 550 MB
21:13
theuberkevlar
how will the camera hook into the computer for recording? USB 3.0 ?
21:13
theuberkevlar
or something else?
21:13
surami
and people want 300 fps :D lol
21:14
Gegsite
left the channel
21:14
Bertl
most likely not USB 3.0 :)
21:18
pizthewiz
left the channel
21:22
pizthewiz
joined the channel
21:25
surami
sata?
21:25
theuberkevlar
PCIe?
21:25
surami
optical?
21:25
theuberkevlar
ethernet?
21:25
theuberkevlar
haha
21:25
surami
usb 1 x 300? :D
21:25
theuberkevlar
hahahahaha
21:26
theuberkevlar
5 inch floppies?
21:26
theuberkevlar
laserdisk?
21:27
Bertl
options en mass ... we'll see what we come up with :)
21:28
Bertl
(if the goal is reached, of course :)
21:28
surami
we have to pump up a bit then
21:29
surami
is there already some info about this direct PC recording solution on ML forum?
21:29
Bertl
the ML folks are here, so maybe, haven't checked yet
21:30
surami
if not I'll write, let's check
21:31
Bertl
thanks!
21:31
wescotte
Is the JP4 format lossless?
21:33
g3gg0
we are experimenting with LJ92 compression. its lossless. dont know much about other good raw compression algorithms
21:33
g3gg0
iirc LJ92 is also used in DNG
21:34
g3gg0
http://thndl.com/how-dng-compresses-raw-data-with-lossless-jpeg92.html
21:35
seku
joined the channel
21:35
seku
evenongs
21:35
Bertl
evenong seku!
21:36
seku
nice new stretch goal. appreciated :D
21:37
Bertl
g3gg0: ffv1 might be an option
21:37
seku
if we reach that one, we will nearly have a gamma on our hands o.O
21:38
seku
ffv1 video codec?
21:38
Bertl
we will make the 'Beta' label a sticker, so we can simply switch it to say 'Gamma'
21:39
Bertl
:)
21:39
Bertl
no, seriously, I think we will learn a lot from the Beta and accompanied development
21:39
g3gg0
Bertl: not sure how good it works with raw bayer data
21:39
Bertl
and it will be very beneficial to adjust the Gamma design accordingly
21:40
Bertl
g3gg0: no idea here either, but I was thinking doing 4 images per frame
21:40
Bertl
i.e. four individual streams
21:41
seku
i was just thinking that with stretch goal beta will be more full featured than anyone would have guessed
21:41
seku
heck, using my canon glass .... 24-105 and 70-200 IS 2
21:41
seku
what a joy
21:42
seku
add a 200k goal for a speeedbooster from 35mm cinema to fullframe xD
21:42
seku
j/k
21:43
Bertl
I think we are done with stretch goals now ... a lot of work ahead of us
21:43
seku
much more than planned i imagine :(
21:44
seku
*:)
21:44
seku
silly us international blind keyboard
21:45
seku
well, if the raw recording stretch goal is reached, you will be in for crazy busy time
21:47
Bertl
btw, just googled for speedbooster, to confirm my assumption what that would be, and I've seen Metabones offers that for some mounts
21:48
seku
well, that would be head-shakingly crazy... i would get one immediately
21:48
seku
if only for the 24-105
21:51
seku
i just love that lens. with speedbooster it would be able to stop down to below 3
21:51
seku
well, very many fun times ahead :D
21:52
seku
hrm... my english deteriorates as the night creeps along
21:53
Bertl
don't worry, we still can tell what you're trying to communicate :)
21:53
seku
youre very lenient ... sometimes i think it would be easier to just write in german
21:53
seku
2nd foreign language is easier than 4th xD
21:56
surami
raw bayer data contains 3 separeted channel or how?
21:57
surami
RGB?
21:57
Q_
surami: There are ussually 2 Gs.
21:58
seku
wouldnt one combine the G into the same channel?
21:58
surami
that's why Bertl wrote 4?
21:59
Q_
Yes.
21:59
g3gg0
usually yes
21:59
g3gg0
there are also cameras that have two different greens
22:00
Q_
Right, but I think most actually have the same green.
22:00
g3gg0
so theoretically you can stretch your gamut a bit
22:00
g3gg0
yeah, only know two cameras that seem to have different G channels
22:01
seku
btw, on a grinningly different note ... any effort/interest in dolby vision yet
22:01
seku
somewhat feels like a big thing
22:02
seku
just asking :)
22:02
Bertl
the page suggests something highly proprietary :)
22:03
surami
did you saw this, what people are doing in japan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGD84vkD_mE
22:03
seku
arf. that is unfortunate
22:03
surami
there are very interesting analyzator machines
22:03
surami
converters etc.
22:03
seku
8k is around for a while in japan afaik
22:04
Bertl
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/licensing/apply-license-professional.aspx
22:04
seku
sighs
22:04
Bertl
so not an option for us anyway
22:04
seku
thats unfortunate
22:05
surami
I linked it because of they are working too with separeted channels...
22:05
seku
i hope someone will come up with an opensource similar colorspace
22:05
surami
not because 8k
22:05
seku
sorry surami
22:06
surami
np
22:07
Q_
Looking at that dolby vision thing, they just want to increase the brightness?
22:07
seku
yes
22:07
seku
if i understand correctly its all about increasing apparent contrast and black level via higher brightness
22:08
seku
frankly i feel thats needed.... our cameras can do it, so can our displays
22:08
seku
no need to be stuck in rec701
22:09
Bertl
surami: you are referring to the segmentation, yes?
22:09
surami
yes
22:09
Bertl
yeah, that's quite common with SDI
22:09
seku
ah, i thought you meant color recording segmentation
22:10
Bertl
we can do similar with HDMI/DP but there are no recording devices AFAIK
22:10
Q_
You mean Rec709?
22:10
seku
sorry yes... tired because of jetlag öD
22:10
seku
*:D
22:11
surami
what if 4 DNG is generated for the channels?
22:11
Q_
(There is also a 601 and 2020)
22:11
surami
and after that we can merge it somehow?
22:11
seku
there has been some exceedingly positive reaction to dolby vision by DPs lately... altho that might just be marketing buzz... i dont know
22:12
surami
or it's bullshit what i think?
22:12
seku
i am dying to see some dolby vision myself
22:12
Bertl
surami: yeah, we have a bunch of options there, we'll see what turns out most practicable
22:12
surami
okok
22:12
seku
but really i would love to see something like dolby vision in open source :)
22:13
Bertl
surami: but we will definitely keep it flexible, so that anybody can implement their preferred solution
22:13
aombk
will you be adding dolby atmos support?
22:13
seku
thats one of the primary reason to save and edit in raw ... you can convert to whatever colorspace later :D
22:13
seku
err, atmos is sound_
22:14
seku
isnt it?
22:14
Bertl
aombk: do you have a well documented chip for that?
22:14
Q_
seku: My screen can do something like 250 cd/m^2, but I find that way too bright and turn it down to something like 100.
22:14
surami
Bertl:ok, i understand
22:14
seku
Q_, the idea is that you dont show rec709 stuff on a high candela screen, but only the biggest highlights.
22:15
Q_
But it might make sense that for "normal" white you'd use 100 and can go to higher brightness for highlights.
22:15
seku
nods
22:15
seku
thus increasing apparent contrast
22:16
Q_
So it's just HDR.
22:16
theuberkevlar
left the channel
22:16
aombk
it would be great if beta inputs and outputs looked something like this: http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr7009-sr6009/marantzsr6009rueckseite663x267.jpg
22:16
seku
inverse of HDR i think
22:17
theuberkevlar
joined the channel
22:17
seku
to me HDR is just compressing high dynamic range into low dyanmic range. whereas the idea of that dolby thing is to really show higher dynamic range on the screen. and let the eyes do the magic
22:18
Q_
The idea would be to not compress it I guess.
22:18
seku
the idea is to use the high native dynamic range of our displays and not limit ourselves with rec709
22:18
aombk
i think dolby hdr is a marketing thing
22:19
Bertl
125k btw
22:19
seku
my beamer can do 50000:1 contrast... and i beg for a colorspace/material to actually use it
22:19
g3gg0
Bertl: reminds me of avalanche effect :)
22:19
seku
aombk, agreed. i am not saying axiom should go dolby. i am just hoping for an open source color calibration that allows for similar effects
22:20
aombk
like dolby NR on old tape decks
22:20
seku
but i think the general idea behind dolby vision is sound
22:20
seku
no pun intended
22:21
seku
its time to move beyound rec709 or DCI.
22:21
Q_
seku: I think it's just a matter of not having a curve that doesn't compress the highlights, and having a reference level for the white.
22:21
seku
it is also a matter of what colorspace you feed the display device
22:22
se6astian
time for bed
22:22
seku
nächtle, seb
22:22
surami
cheers all
22:23
Q_
Rec709 is probably has a limiting colorspace yes, but Rec2020 should be much better.
22:23
seku
fully agreed.i shouldnt have been talking about rec709, but about rec2020...
22:24
seku
its just that dolby seems to be more known than rec2020 ... my fault :)
22:25
surami
left the channel
22:25
se6astian
time for bed
22:25
se6astian
good night
22:25
aombk
good night
22:25
seku
again, nächtle :D
22:25
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
22:26
seku
i think that should really pushed as a RAW advantage
22:26
aombk
are you going to add a technicolor picture style bertl?
22:26
seku
mastering to colorspaces we deem necessary
22:28
seku
maybe i rant too much to early :)
22:28
seku
*too . gah
22:30
aombk
i am sure there will be too much colorspace testing in the open source community with the beta
22:30
seku
i hope so too :)
22:30
Q_
seku: Just embed a color profile in it and let whatever displays it convert it? :)
22:31
seku
Q_, now thats wishful thinking :D
22:32
seku
i am using a 5k beamer. it has an accurate SRGB mode @ 6500k.
22:32
seku
then it has some funny cinema, animation, max colorspace, thx, and i dont know what modes
22:32
seku
nothing that really maxes out the potential of the beamer tho
22:33
Bertl
send it to us, we will make sure to max it out :)
22:33
seku
mumbmles ... there should be a max contrast/max colorspace format. where the player would then take into account the beamer/display max ANSI contrast / max colorspace. and downconvert that to the dipslays best capabilities
22:34
seku
Bertl, you are cordially invited to visit. but i wont yet part with my trusty JVC :D
22:35
seku
its only 1080p anyway :)
22:35
Q_
1080p should be more than enough for displaying?
22:36
seku
depends. i like sitting 3 meters away from my 3.5 meters screen
22:36
seku
i think i could notice 4k :D
22:36
Q_
For some reason I doubt it.
22:36
seku
really?
22:37
Q_
Maybe with a 3.5 m screen.
22:37
seku
it is closer than a 1:1 sitting distance
22:37
Q_
But why would you want to sit so close to that?
22:37
seku
i like sitting close to a big screen.
22:38
seku
my guests usually sit 5 meters away
22:38
Q_
Because then can't sit any further away? :)
22:38
seku
the only reason i dont have screen miasma is because the beamer is D-ILA (no screendoor effect. pixels are interwoven)
22:39
seku
looks crazily nice. but i could use some more resolution :D
22:39
seku
mh, i think 6 meters sitting distance is max. but no one wants to sit that far away. because i keep the booze close to my seat :D
22:41
seku
i wont get into a resolution debate now... but for myself ... it does matter. 1080p 3,5 meter screen at 3 meters away... or my 2560x1600 screen at 70 cm away. the resolution increase is very noticeable. your mileage may vary
22:42
seku
i could use more resolution on both, and will eventually upgrade, when prices seem sensible.
22:45
seku
but thats still quite a while off
22:49
seku
mh, far way to 150k xD
22:51
wescotte
left the channel
22:58
dmjnova
I can easily see screen door on 2k IMAX screens
23:01
seku
2k IMAX is DLP, not D-ILA afaik
23:01
seku
d-oéa blurs screendoor, while it is quite prominent in dlp
23:07
dmjnova
seku: true
23:08
dmjnova
just commenting on the whole seeing greater than 2k resolution thing
23:16
FergusL
se6astian|away must be thrilled to have reached the remote control interface stretch goal
23:17
seku
we are thrilled too
23:17
seku
i wonder what happens if we reach the 150k
23:17
seku
some kind of crazily deformed hdmi interface recorder via pcie i guess
23:18
seku
the 4k 30hz option in a 1080p60 convoluted video stream maybe :D
23:27
__anton__
joined the channel
23:28
Bertl
wb __anton__!
23:29
__anton__
Bert: Hi :)
23:29
g3gg0
hi
23:29
__anton__
suku: Hi, actually I read there are specifications for external PCIe - specs for cables etc. I haven't seen anything like that in the shops yet, but could it be a nice way to get video into the PC? By having Zynq 7015 talk directly to PCIe controller in your Intel CPU on the PC?
23:30
seku
that would be fun. wouldnt that need them crazy reworked drivers tho?
23:31
__anton__
seku: well a new card for the PC would require drivers as well
23:31
seku
true :)
23:31
g3gg0
cant it emulate eSATA? ;)
23:32
seku
i thought along something similar to the blackmagic intensity range. capable of doing 1080p60
23:32
seku
(thus getting is 4k raw 30fps)
23:33
seku
just silly ideas tho
23:35
g3gg0
when using 4k*3k res with 25fps and 10bpp pixel depth, it would just hit the 3gbit/s SATA spec. of course you will never reach 3gbit.
23:36
seku
for starters id be happy with 4kx2k :)
23:36
g3gg0
there is still room due to the latest sata standards, going up to 6 or even 8gbits
23:36
seku
mh, nearly 2am. work shall be harsh tomorrow. and i am still jetlagged
23:36
seku
s-ata express? xD
23:37
g3gg0
yes, then we are pcie again
23:37
g3gg0
people will have fun with designing and fine tuning the pcb ;)
23:38
seku
very much fun indeed... i have no clue about pcie design issues but i can guess the high frequency parts wont be easy
23:38
g3gg0
i bet this gets quite esoteric
23:39
seku
but i guess if the camera wants to go 4k raw... even at 25fps uncompressed its a major challenge
23:39
seku
not even mentionning 300fps xD
23:39
g3gg0
300fps is not meant at 4k streaming
23:39
seku
i wonder if it wouldnt be cheaper to just put 64gigs ram on the cam as buffer for 300fps and let it that way öD
23:40
g3gg0
sure, how many seconds? :)
23:40
g3gg0
10 sec or so
23:40
g3gg0
ok maybe a bit more
23:41
seku
6.3 gigs per second
23:41
seku
quite accurate
23:41
seku
but still... 10 seconds at 300fps is a LOT
23:41
g3gg0
heh, nice. "a bit" is 0.2 seconds more :)
23:41
g3gg0
true indeed
23:41
seku
especially for the low low price of 64 gigs of ram
23:42
g3gg0
but accessing that huge amount of ram...
23:42
Bertl
depends on the ram
23:42
Bertl
64Gbyte of static memory is not cheap :)
23:42
seku
dumping the ram wouldnt need to be realtime i guess
23:42
g3gg0
sdram controller implementation on fpga for 64GiB RAM...
23:43
seku
mh, i put 32 gigs of ecc ddr3 into my fileserver for fun
23:43
seku
its not that expensive :D
23:43
g3gg0
SRAM != SDRAM
23:43
g3gg0
SDRAM == DRAM == requires refreshing every 15µsec (iirc?)
23:43
Bertl
ddr3 actually needs a quite complicated controller for all the refresh stuff and banking
23:43
seku
mh, no way to buffer stuff from the FPGA into sdram_
23:43
seku
*?
23:44
seku
ah i see... i lack way too much knowledge
23:45
seku
a SDRAM ram drive might still be fun tho. at gamma level :)
23:45
__anton__
The only place I found this on the net. A contraption to get PCIe out of your PC. Made by Blackmagic. Costs whopping EUR 43. http://www.marcotec-shop.de/en/products/cat_538/detail_5834.htm
23:46
g3gg0
Bertl: SATA-Slave mode, emulating a block device that just streams data with 6GBit/s - might that work? but then we had still to fight with cable lengths
23:46
Bertl
__anton__: 43 EUR?
23:46
g3gg0
expensive for just an adapter :)
23:47
Bertl
especially as I'm not sure what you would do with that
23:48
Bertl
the trace length is somewhere around 10-12 inch, IIRC
23:48
seku
just a random thought... infiniband?
23:49
seku
proprietary too i suppose :(
23:49
g3gg0
okay, its getting late. gn8 everyone
23:50
Bertl
have a good one!
23:50
seku
gnight :)
23:50
seku
126k ... rather nice
23:53
seku
gnight here too... work awaits :)
23:53
seku
left the channel
23:55
__anton__
well people seem to making them a few meters long external PCIe calbes, say here http://www.scsi4me.com/tmc-c5458-xm-pcie-x4-x8-external-pcie-x4-to-external-pcie-x8-cable.html not sure if that works well.. I've also come across this: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&No=704 an adaptor for $150 which has got some chip on it
23:55
g3gg0
left the channel
23:56
Bertl
you can extend it with proper signal equalization and retiming
23:56
Bertl
but a few meters won't work that well I guess
23:58
__anton__
another prob is these cables are probably rather stiff and inflexible.. same applies to Infiniband cables..