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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/01/07

Timezone: UTC


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troy_s_
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FergusL
I expect it will end up around 10k
00:10
FergusL
well
00:10
FergusL
who am I to say this ? just a random guy
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01:43
dmj_nova
hello all, back from vacation
01:45
Bertl_
wb dmj_nova!
01:45
Bertl_
changed nick to: Bertl
01:46
Bertl
do you still remember me? :)
01:51
dmj_nova
Bertl: oh of course!
01:51
Bertl
good good ... *G*
01:51
dmj_nova
Bertl: How is the project progressing. I'm a bit behind on the ml
01:52
Bertl
well, the web pages basically show the current status, we are working behind the scenes on noise, calibration and moving pictures
01:54
Bertl
probably the greatest change after the boxed alpha was the new FPGA code (train2/snap2/hist2)
01:54
Bertl
which finally got rid of the lvds issues
01:55
Bertl
sebastian is busy mostly doing test images and charts with the boxed alpha
01:55
Bertl
+grammar
01:55
dmj_nova
very nice
02:10
Rambutan2000
Good Morning from Singapore!
02:10
Bertl
morning Rambutan2000!
02:30
Bertl
Rambutan2000: what's new in singapore?
02:31
Rambutan2000
Well it's still hot :p
02:35
Bertl
yeah, like 30°C I guess, no?
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05:40
Topic
apertus° - open source cinema | www.apertus.org | Currently Hot: Axiom Alpha Development http://axiom.apertus.org/ | IRC Logs available at: http://irc.apertus.org
05:40
se6astian
has set the topic
06:51
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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se6astian
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se6astian
good morning
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PhilippeJ
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09:42
PhilippeJ
Black betty making of story http://blackbettycameras.com/building-betty-2/
09:58
Rambutan2000
Sorry haven't been on much, everyone has come back from holidays at work this week so a bit busy, I've been think of some design stuff, se6astian I'll PM you when I've got something to show
09:59
se6astian
Rambutan2000, sounds good, looking forward to it!
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Bertl
morning everyone!
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se6astian
hello!
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18:54
Bertl
dmj_nova: testing your IRC client?
18:58
dmj_nova
Bertl: not intentionally :P
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21:18
gcolburn
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21:18
gcolburn
hello
21:19
Bertl
hey gcolburn!
21:19
gcolburn
how's it going?
21:19
Bertl
slowly but steady :)
21:19
gcolburn
yeah :0
21:19
gcolburn
i've been a bit busy lately
21:19
gcolburn
but thought I'd see if I can get a calibration to work
21:20
Bertl
excellent, if you need help with the geometric corrections, just let me know
21:20
gcolburn
yes, please. I don't know if I have any programs installed right now that can do that
21:20
gcolburn
without possibly modifying the images in other ways
21:21
Bertl
okay, give me the md5sum of the raw you need corrected
21:22
gcolburn
MD5 (it8-tungsten-01-12ms.raw16) = 9ad01d2150b87293cdb4feea7b2b06c0
21:23
Bertl
okay, got it
21:23
gcolburn
what tool are you planning on using?
21:23
Bertl
imagemagick
21:23
gcolburn
ok
21:24
Bertl
I'll give you the commands once I'm done
21:24
gcolburn
okay. I don't have it on my mac at the moment
21:25
Bertl
np, will upload the corrected file as 16bit rgb png?
21:26
gcolburn
sure
21:34
gcolburn
hmm⦠guess perspective correction is an option that wasn't turned on in Argyll⦠I'm trying it now
21:34
gcolburn
hmm⦠it made it past that step now
21:36
gcolburn
average error is now 12.5%
21:36
Bertl
okay, no problem, I'm almost done, will upload the transformed version as well
21:36
gcolburn
sure
21:36
gcolburn
we can compare
21:44
gcolburn
I tried running the profiling on the chart with no rotation/cropping and the mean error was 40%
21:46
jucar
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21:48
Bertl
still no idea what those percentages actually mean
21:51
gcolburn
yeah
21:51
gcolburn
:)
21:51
Bertl
I'm 200% sure that only 50% of the 75% average is correct :)
21:51
gcolburn
i would guess that once it generates the matrix it applies each patch through the matrix and computes an error from the expected XYZ values
21:53
gcolburn
hmm⦠this time I tried applying a median filter in DCRAW (suggested by troy), and the relative error is 21%
21:54
gcolburn
did you see that Truesense imaging provides calibration matrices for each sensor? Obviously that doesn't account for differences between individual sensors or batches, but I would be their calibrations are more advanced then ours
21:57
Bertl
yup
21:57
Bertl
'ours' being 'cmosis' :)
21:58
gcolburn
well, I was referring to us shooting an IT8 chart ourselves and running through Argyll. I would hope the manufacturer has a better method :)
22:00
Bertl
yes? .. I'm not convinced they do/have/care :)
22:02
gcolburn
yeah
22:02
gcolburn
I think Truesense might care more than CMOSIS
22:02
gcolburn
they said they have a dedicated color scientist that we could consult with
22:03
Bertl
yes, sounds interesting
22:03
gcolburn
and I believe they have more sensors used in photography than CMOSIS
22:03
gcolburn
(the medium format CCDs)
22:03
gcolburn
by the way, I've been communicating with Illunis Cameras
22:04
gcolburn
they said instead of camera link and GigE they can provide a ribbon cable that has the output of their processing that they would feed to the Camera Link chip
22:05
gcolburn
its an LVTTL signal with frame/line/data/pixel valid clocks, a serial port for controlling the sensor, and a trigger port
22:06
gcolburn
they expressed interest in the zed board (they hadn't seen it before I guess), and were wondering if it could be used to record to an Sata SSD
22:07
Bertl
processing being what exactly? and what are the data rates?
22:07
gcolburn
well they have a lot of built in options like LUTS, FPN reduction, etc.
22:07
gcolburn
their cameras have 3 boards
22:08
gcolburn
sensor board, fpga/microprocessor board, power/communications board
22:08
gcolburn
these are mainly for CCD sensors
22:09
gcolburn
full frame or medium format
22:09
gcolburn
so the larger sensors have slow frame rates
22:09
gcolburn
2-8 frames/second
22:10
gcolburn
they have nikon f-mount as well as medium format mounts
22:10
se6astian
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22:10
gcolburn
while looking in their user guide I saw control for canon lenses as well (I presume they reverse engineered it)
22:11
gcolburn
http://www.illunis.com/support/assets/RMV%20Manual%20Rev%20EA.pdf
22:12
Bertl
uploading corrected images now, will take a little
22:12
gcolburn
okay
22:12
gcolburn
thanks
22:13
Bertl
I've made 4 different version, I'd be interested in the differences they produce
22:14
gcolburn
definitely
22:16
gcolburn
http://www.illunis.com/oem_custom/oem_custom.html
22:16
gcolburn
you can see how the 3 boards are laid out in a fairly small package
22:17
Bertl
yeah, I saw that page last time
22:18
gcolburn
ah ok
22:19
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/it8-tungsten-01-12ms-corr-des.png
22:19
Bertl
that's the first one
22:20
Bertl
let me know if that is sufficient for the tools to find the patches
22:20
gcolburn
ok
22:20
gcolburn
i'll try it now
22:20
Bertl
if not, I can also do a cubic correction
22:28
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/it8-tungsten-01-12ms-corr-enh.png
22:30
gcolburn
15 % error
22:31
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/it8-tungsten-01-12ms-corr-med.png
22:32
gcolburn
when I profiled the image from sebastians canon I got 3.67%
22:33
gcolburn
I'll try a few more images, but I don't think the perspective/crop/rotate will be able to get us that low
22:34
gcolburn
what's the difference in the last two images? (currently downloading)
22:35
Bertl
I did some post processing on them which should not affect the calibration but might improve on the noise
22:40
gcolburn
okay
22:40
Bertl
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/it8-tungsten-01-12ms-corr.png
22:40
Bertl
that's the last and unprocessed one
22:42
gcolburn
ok, thanks
22:43
Bertl
I would expect the lowest 'noise' in the -med version
22:56
gcolburn
I just tried using the matrix with the 12% error in photoshop raw
22:57
gcolburn
compared with the previous matrix that was 20%
22:57
gcolburn
there is a slight white balance difference
22:57
gcolburn
but when I white balance both using the same gray path. the images are indistinguishable
22:57
gcolburn
path->patch
22:58
gcolburn
and those matrices were created using different images captured at different times
23:02
gcolburn
I get 15% error with the "med"
23:02
Bertl
so the same as with the enh, yes?
23:02
Bertl
can you also run the unprocessed for reference?
23:03
gcolburn
i've only done the des and med so far
23:03
gcolburn
the unprocessed that I made using DCRAW was 21%
23:04
gcolburn
enh is 15% as well
23:05
Bertl
okay, if the unprocessed gives 15% too, it's just based on geometry
23:06
gcolburn
could be
23:06
gcolburn
i'm still curious why the canon was so much better :)
23:06
gcolburn
if it was just that he could get a better framing of the chart, or if its that combined with noise
23:07
gcolburn
even though our noise reduction techniques haven't improved anything thus far
23:07
gcolburn
I can still see FPN in the images
23:07
Bertl
yes, nothing was removed
23:08
gcolburn
so, I guess the question is where to go from here
23:08
Bertl
all post processing is generic stuff
23:08
gcolburn
I think for now the calibration is probably decent, since differences in mean error isn't visually changing anything
23:08
Bertl
well, I think we should create a perfect chart and see if that gives a perfect score :)
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danhanes
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23:34
Bertl
wb danhanes!
23:34
danhanes
Hi Bertl - Thanks. Just looking at the log & your discussion of sensors
23:35
danhanes
lots to do
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jucar
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23:37
Bertl
yeah, we are counting on you taking over the FPGA development soon :)
23:38
gcolburn
sorry I had to step out
23:39
danhanes
Ha - I just hope I can help in some way
23:39
gcolburn
danhanes: Hello. I don't believe we've met. My name is Gabe
23:40
danhanes
hi gabe - I'n new in these parts. Hoping to come up to speed on the FPGA development
23:42
gcolburn
great. I imagine Herbert would appreciate help with that :)
23:43
gcolburn
I'd like to learn more of the FPGA side but I've been working primarily on the sensor characterization
23:43
danhanes
I am astonished at what he has accomplished. I did some VHDL a few years ago, and it the skill is slow in returning
23:44
gcolburn
yeah, I've only done a little bit of VHDL.
23:44
danhanes
I was looking at your discussion just now - is the choice of the CMOSIS part being reconsidered ?
23:44
gcolburn
no
23:45
gcolburn
not that i'm aware of
23:45
gcolburn
I'm working on a separate project that Herbert is helping me with
23:45
gcolburn
I'm looking into the Truesense Imaging sensors (formerly Kodak)
23:45
danhanes
OK. I see. I was looking at the CMOSIS part for a project about a year ago - thats actually how I came upon Apertus.
23:46
danhanes
Much better to collaborate
23:46
gcolburn
same here
23:46
gcolburn
haha
23:46
gcolburn
so we're trying to find mutual areas of interest
23:48
danhanes
Kodak had (has) some good CCD tech, but I haven't followed their CMOS parts. Don't know much about the Truesense spinoff
23:50
danhanes
Bertl: I hate to keep asking background questions, but I will anyway....:)
23:51
Bertl
no problem, go ahead ...
23:51
danhanes
is the goal for the alpha prototype to output only HDMI at 1080 (4:4:4) ?
23:52
danhanes
then a hw redesign ?
23:52
Bertl
for the live output, yes, full HD @ 60FPS will be the max
23:56
danhanes
I understand that the immediate need is for a functional prototype prior to crowdfunding. Is there a target spec, or a time-derived requirement ?
23:59
Bertl
well, no need, but we want to make sure that we can pull it off as planned