#apertus IRC Channel Logs

hey ItsMeLenny!

now that you said it's bert L, it reminds me of bertie beatle

thanks to the beatles nobody knows how to spell correctly, and by nobody i mean me

http://www.lootbags.com.au/media/pics/site/imagecache/2/D/2D7682A733B231B7E07CC0CCAE31162B.jpg

of course :)

but that's obvious, isn't it?

it might be a given

i just omged in here

oh 3 days left, might reach the next level goal

down under is hot and dry right now

are you nearby the sea?

nice, a lot of diving and swimming there, no?

i havent actually been swimming in years

i used to go a lot as a kid, i think its that thing of doing it for so long the novelty wears off

and too many tourists

they leave beer bottles, and light fires, and ride motorbikes on the sand and jetskies in the water, and leave dirty baby nappies (for the americans: diapers)

ugh

magiclantern is making some progress in bringing 12bit and 10bit raw video to the cameras, rather than the 14bit, so i may finally have a camera that records raw at a decent resolution

Bertl, in terms of that "the shoebox prototype" what is the board that is inside it that looks like a motherboard

it is a Zynq Z-7020 based FPGA development board with an LPC FMC connector

ive gone onto their website, i will have a look around

ah

i.e. there is no Z-7000, they start at 7010, 7015, 7020

oh

are they "like an arduino"

and very expensive arduino

but the funny thing is, for an FPGA dev kit they are rather cheap

i'll put them on the in the future list, which is where the apertus ended up, ill be one of those people buying it fullprice

yes, except that there is no reason why those dev-kits cost so much

the FPGAs are relatively cheap compared to most of the dev-kit prices

gotta pay them $$$ for that shiny label

good idea

and make a fluffy pink version for the ladies

thatd probably sell well actually

excellent name!

102% \o/

will it stop ?

I'd say you have a pretty good chance

good morning

i just seeh that apertus has made it.(i was over the weekend offline). congratulations to all.... :-)

it was renamed, it is now called Super35/16mm 3rd Batch

ah gotcha, much less clear

understood :) - vote for 35mm is pretty clear :) think the 300fps are freeking a lot of people ;)

103k! 69h left

http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/axiom-beta-open-digital-cinema-camera-funded-on-indiegogo

because of the artistic effects!

off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!

okee dokee! night

€103,981

ItsMeLenny, where do you live?

hellos! wuuuuhhaaaxiom!! 104k congratulations! =)

its strange that tourists behave that way

sydney usually

thx Even!

aombk, combination of just different cultures and big business people

:P

aombk, talked about taht idea before

lol

oh thats why you wait for axiom

:P

i like antitourist movies

what dslr have you bought?

i bought it about 3 years back now i think, back when i was first waiting for the axiom :P

ah

get a super telephoto lens and start shooting the tourists :P

lol

yes we probably have

se6astian, the dictator will be a must or will the mobile phone offer the same funtionality?

€104,331

comradekingu, put a cube of jelly infront of the lens

i am very interested in compressed footage out of the beta

there is a MJPEG feed on old models, always enabled

doesnt h264 compress better than mjpeg

h264 is cpu hungry

(I'm a total noob when it comes to FPGA programming)

ah

it would be even better to have compressed raw

afaiu, red uses jpeg2000 to encode each colour from the bayer data in a separate frame

I already saw that, but in that case, you have roughly 1:2 compression

lossy compression

i believe compressed raw is the way to go

(it's pretty extreme though)

indeed, especially at 4K

of course

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_codecs

In November 2010, Fiona Glaser, an x264 developer, published information in which she claims that one of Tandberg Telecom's (a Cisco Systems subsidiary) patent applications from December 2008 contains a step-by-step description of an algorithm she committed to the x264 codebase around two months earlier.[18][19] This was relayed by media, which remarked that the company who filed the patent was following the x264 project IRC development channel and was

yeah, just imagine whats going on with daala

not a lot of codecs would be suitable for storing raw. One option is to separate each color and compress independantly 4 grayscale frames (one for each color). There is also http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=JP4

but the workflow is not great

I mean as soon as you don't provide the whole suite of tools to convert a recorded file to some usable file for post, it makes it harder for people (for example magic lantern mlv converter/player is a great usability boosts for postproduction workflow)

or because of the two green pixels?

hiyas, back from holidays, and again congrats!

back now ...

hi bertl, awesome week :) it seems i got my birthday present even before the 8th october :)

funny detail from the indiegogo stats, we got about 1 EUR per visit :)

i mean, for an opensource videocam thats a lot

(that is contributions not amount of contribute money)

we will certainly publish more stats and curves when the campaign is over

alexML: the other day I was wondering if it would be possible to distribute the frames across 5 independent lossy encoder chips (either MJPEG, h.264, etc)

as I doubt many can play 300fps native :)

Bertl raised the issue of IP/NDA issues

(I understand and agree completely why Apertus wouldn't want to produce hardware tangled with NDA + proprietary components)

I tried to contact the FFmpeg developer(s) regarding their custom codec and how complicated it would be to implement in FPGA

I think we have to focus on getting the basic functionality working, so that developers around the world can experiment with codecs

I don't think we will see useable codecs before everything else is working and optimized

it's still nice to dream of the possibilities

FFV1

regarding codecs - most of them are 8bit, so unusable for another reason

aombk: if you cant handle uncompressed 4k, then its not for you :)

the compressed one can be hardly called 4k...

well, my 4k live still looks better than fhd out of red :)

if this campaign stated clearly that no attempt for compression will ever be made by anyone and this camera will only output uncompressed 4k, i dont think it would have succeeded. so i think it is better that people like you, that dont like compression and can handle 4k uncompressed, to let people that cant handle it and like compression, talk about compression :)

obviously there are some benefits for both, lossy and lossless compression

lossy compression reduces the bandwidth, which allows you to get more frames/size through the same bottleneck

he is willing to contribute his non-compression algorithms

my needs are different - i want native resolution - not a downscaled one and no quality compromise with a lossy compression... so far what you show is a rather averagely performing/designed equipment

almost yes, form factor has to be still decided

and its up to anyone to implement anything

sorry but your comments dont make any sense

In the hypothetical world where it could have been a camera artificially restricted to never do compression, maybe it wouldnt be successfull, but thats beside the point, it wouldnt be a foss camera then

i dont

"<danieel> regarding codecs - most of them are 8bit, so unusable for another reason"

thats the point of something that says beta. I hope nobody is let down by how that works.

and only mild grading needs to be done, then 8bit lossy codec might be viable for a lot of people

But the purpose is making cinema products, thats the alluring feature, so thats what needs to work first and foremost

danieel: I know, but it's a feature some people may well use

danieel: I'm thinking about recording high FPS

8bit lossy might be doable, whereas 4k uncompressed/lossless compressed might be a complete no-go

hard to tell if there will be enough resources to do HFR even at 2k

as I commented earlier, maybe some custom encoding hardware (multiple encoder chips working together) could work

seems rather restricted to few plugs on the sides

more likely the gammma

ok, then that is different story

without shaking

anyone that wants lossy encoding for the Beta (at least early on) could get an Atomos or equiv

why is that sad?

for me its because there are no similarly foss recorders

because it forces users to get an unnecessary equipment

thats beside the point

and only that

before you get to comparing anything else the axiom beta is very promising

you can record photograps, thats what i want to use mine for, and yes, i have a "professional camera" but the menus there arent good

Hopefully it will be more to everyone down the road, hope i can help at least a little bit

danieel, what do you plan to do with your camera?

hi

we are experimenting with it for 14 bit RGGB raw

and most importantly, it's apples and oranges, because none of the "professional cameras" are FOSS/OH, so while danieel might compare his proprietary solution to other "professional" proprietary solutions, I do not see a point for comparing any of them with the AXIOM

theres people who want uncompressed raw. all good. theres as many, if not more who wish to use the advantages of RAW (latitude, moving exposure, white balance, whatevs) even in a compressed format

lossless jpeg, mjpeg, jpeg2000, opensource wavelets ... so many options to be examined

just a hobbyists opinion

its not compression or not both needs can be met.

close to 1st stretch goal

2x20tb for backups

doesn't seem so much to me :)

re

re g3gg0

tried plain LZMA before, but it was very slow and didnt give better results

theres a lot of possibilies that one may chose :)

that link i posted? thats LJ92

:D

and 60-70% (i.e. 30-40% reduction) is worth the compression?

ask the guys who have terabytes of video footage

they'd kiss you for saving 50% of the disks :)

the thing i wonder about tho is that as alex is working on expanding dynamic range, will 10 or 12 bit be sufficient?

yes that depends on the user base.

(videographers i mean)

well, ML hobbyist here :)

semiprofessionals definitely do. and they have limited budget but big plans :)

actually the easier playback in realtime would make a good point

t.b.h i didnt do any tests with the lj92 algorithm baldwin proposed yet. i just implemented it and checked if i can compress and decompress successfully :)

so no idea if it will slow down realtime playback

i guess i could calculate it too xD

530 i think

4096 * 3072 etc

saving?

saving

realtime compression with that huge amount of data.. uh uh :)

(stomach feeling)

that might be a point where e.g. the parallella could shine

thats a good GSoC project :)

heh, if this were doable, that would mean only twice the datarate of ML RAW.

still 700 gigs per hour. will make some people scream :D

haha

yesh

private videos or some public viewable content?

nothing i dare put on public yet ... but eventually i will :)

nah, didnt dare. so many good ML videos out there already

i am still fiddling around with an all-Resolve workflow, keeping the raws from beginning to the end

but again, im just a hobbyist, im in it for the fun, not necessarily what makes sense business wise

windows version of mlvfs? ;)

avxsynth :)

for now i usually let my mac do the conversion via rawmagic. for FPN etc

but its too ML-specific. dont want to hijack apertus chat for that :)

well, i think it could be very interesting to apertus too? recording in ML, and directly mount the files transparently to resolve, etc

oopsie, again i wasnt keeping up. been on holidays the last few weeks

GPL violation stuff etc.

thats why we offered our support and recommend to use a common toolchain

reading up on said thread right now

whoa, long discussion

g3gg0: what exactly is mlvfs doing? and how?

Bertl, http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13268.0

FUSE system with *nix, WebDAV with winblows

i loved the idea, but FUSE doesnt work on windows. so i recycled an old WebDAV server i wrote once and added MLV extraction here too

so it's fuse on linux, webdav on windows as seku said?

first stretch goal reached!

wow amazing

already? WOW

thats great!

altho... with global shutter thats less of an issue :)

the AXIOM bling

maybe add a golden farraday cage around the camera

nice, would have probably sold better than our organs

nobody wants them....

had to laugh

What if Stanley Kubrick had built the AXIOM, now we know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JxAJkmcjo

what about that fair labour part? xD

the more the better :)

heh @ recut video

but seriously, are all apertus users high on caffeine! :P

theuberkevlar: excellent question

the remote control will provide similar functionality, but we don't know yet if and how it will be attachable to the camera

with live view

wow, cheap

nice

with some physical buttons

10" is needed :(

g3gg0: wireless tablet camera control: yes (already possible with the Alpha), live video on tablet: no

(but I'm sure somebody will add that sooner or later)

no built in finder

sorry :) you can attach a monitor :) thats better.

well, a few weeks ago we already had the remote tablet liveview discussion

BTW I see lot of donaters they havent added the shipping cost (I did haha) what will happend to them?

does shipping cost matter that much with a 2k sensor? i bet VAT or other import taxes might more

only to the perks to receive t-shirts, buttons, etc

as the rest for the camera is due at ship anyway

great :)

personal pickup with coffe with the developers is always an option I guess :)

i will add that perk then :)

Is it possible to reuse the battery boards from the novena laptop for the battery addition?

http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena_Main_Page#Battery_board

whoa, looks quite... overengineered for the beta? i guess one would stick with external rechargers and just connect the battery via cable to the axiom

comradekingu: okay, I understand the question now

I think its an easy fix for something that would make dolley operated cameras more mobile

just noticed xxD

on a laptop, you want to charge/discharge transparently

Bertl: its not a laptop battery pack, its an RC-car battery pack

on a camera you normally just switch the battery

Well, with this you could switch less often

and/or you could operate on-line

in theory, if the battery pack includes an online charging manager, you can simply connect it to the DC/DC module planned for the Beta and be done with it

Bertl: thats what the novena battery board is

seeing it says 5-40V so i imagine its the latter

Hi all. Does the monochrome option mean high pixel area CCD like used in astronomy?

just another crazy idea... for fun. seeing as there are already color and monochrome chip versions available ... how far are we off lightfield sensors? :)

seku: if you find one with open datasheets and somewhat sane interface, why not

It could easily interpolate to the next order of magnitude in display sizes in the future.

well, i think its a microlens array above a normal cmos sensor. which allows diffierent DOF per .. pixel or bayer group

im far more interested in troy_s and alexMLs work on DR

I think the CMV4000 would be quite suitable for astronomy

felt like it has tremendous potential

astronomy was my first love... never got into photography tho. do you do several filtered RGB exposures that you stick together with a mono chip?

seku: Yes. They stack up witha color wheel and make each exposure balance for the color sensitivity of the sensor.

and the good news is, it is pin compatible to the CMV2000 :)

didnt know astronomy interest into the axiom was that strong

Cooling would appeal I think. But I think they would want a good CCD instead of CMOS.

excuse me for my ignorance, but why wouldnt they go timelapse instead of video?

(sincere question, i dont know anything about it)

ah, theyre into the moons, and not jupiter :D

mh... i thought of renting a house in iceland in the next years, and rent a nice telescope there... stargazing is a nice hobby

Q_: The lots of frames method is gaining or taking over from long exposure in a lot of areas.

Yes, dark frames and flat field and low flat field get a black point an dgain for each pixel in the sensor. The newer software is what has allowed the DSLRs to be doing so well. Piles of 20 to 60 second exposures and bad ones rejected.

I wrote all those routines back in the late 80's. It was cutting edge :-)

A class mate in physics became the CCD guru at Kodak and supplied teh first big CCDs for Lick Observatory wher another guy I know built the cameras. It was way cool.

Because you can actually see things move within that 60 second exposure.

Q_, there are a lot of telescope tracking solutions

*live

seku: iTelescope.net

Use the best from great locations. Do the free trial with a small scope.

You can sign up for a free trial with a couple of the 100 to 150mm scopes. Really nice ones wth great cameras.

Get your school to sing up for an account and use $60K telescopes by the hour.

unfortunately im out into business life for nearly 10 years now :)

yesh, i know

let's hear, while I'm still awake :)

Say I have a line sensor and mount verticaly in a camera.

Then move an object on a platform with a stepp to get something like a product photo.

call

I have seen a guy who does this for a passing train and thought about trying in a photo booth.

well, it is the same as a scanner

unless your line sensor doesn't use any lens systems

that's what I mean, the line scanner has perspective properties

you could also rotate the line, in which case you would get perspective again

I have a couple of broken 220 backs for RB-67 and I could fit a sensor.

seku: Check the all-sky cameras. I see the Moon is blinding the one in Spain. On clear nights they are pretty cool.

Bertl: why not use simple RC car battery packs? :)

latter have the advantage of being cheap and chargers cost about 3€

Bertl: any idea how many amps the beta will likely take?

somewhere between 1 and 20 A at 5V :)

it's a ballpark number, we know the maximum power consumption for the parts, but we do not have any real world usage patterns yet

Bertl: 20A would limit the portability somewhat :P

Bertl: what would be using that much amperage?

or is that including a full PC recorder?

but as I said, ballpark, do not take it as expected value, more as an absolutely worst case which is unlikely to happen

yeah

so choices in how to downscale; 2x2 binning on sensor vs interpolating in FPGA will probably matter

dmjnova: are you part of the apertus team?

just to get a real world idea, the AXIOM Alpha runs from a 3A/12V power plug

so if the Beta was comparable, you could get a couple of hours record time with an 8Ah battery

dmjnova: cool. I didn't realise :)

hehe

it doesn't seem to be dipping that much

yeah, I guess I'm off to bed now as well ...

have a good one everyone! cya!

good night!