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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/10/06

Timezone: UTC


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surami
congrats! :)
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intracube
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03:17
ItsMeLenny
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03:18
Bertl
hey ItsMeLenny!
03:19
ItsMeLenny
hello Bertl, or possibly Bert!
03:19
ItsMeLenny
now that you said it's bert L, it reminds me of bertie beatle
03:19
ItsMeLenny
bertie beetle
03:20
ItsMeLenny
thanks to the beatles nobody knows how to spell correctly, and by nobody i mean me
03:20
Bertl
no, it's actually a kind of local short form of Herbert
03:20
ItsMeLenny
http://www.lootbags.com.au/media/pics/site/imagecache/2/D/2D7682A733B231B7E07CC0CCAE31162B.jpg
03:20
ItsMeLenny
the female version of the name Herbert is Himbert
03:21
Bertl
of course :)
03:22
ItsMeLenny
:P
03:22
Bertl
but that's obvious, isn't it?
03:23
Bertl
we made the goal! how is down-under?
03:23
ItsMeLenny
it might be a given
03:23
ItsMeLenny
omg!
03:24
ItsMeLenny
i just omged in here
03:24
ItsMeLenny
i am embarresedd,
03:24
ItsMeLenny
oh 3 days left, might reach the next level goal
03:24
Bertl
well, I won't tell anyone :)
03:24
ItsMeLenny
down under is hot and dry right now
03:24
ItsMeLenny
waiting for the wind to change direction a bit to get some cooler air off the water
03:25
Bertl
are you nearby the sea?
03:25
ItsMeLenny
yeah, im in a bay area, about a 5 minute walk to the water, which isnt far at all
03:26
Bertl
nice, a lot of diving and swimming there, no?
03:26
ItsMeLenny
about 500 metres
03:26
ItsMeLenny
i havent actually been swimming in years
03:26
ItsMeLenny
shame on me
03:27
ItsMeLenny
i used to go a lot as a kid, i think its that thing of doing it for so long the novelty wears off
03:27
Bertl
yeah, probably
03:27
ItsMeLenny
and too many tourists
03:28
jucar
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03:28
ItsMeLenny
they leave beer bottles, and light fires, and ride motorbikes on the sand and jetskies in the water, and leave dirty baby nappies (for the americans: diapers)
03:29
ItsMeLenny
the bay will soon be a swamp
03:29
Bertl
ugh
03:29
ItsMeLenny
which, callala swamp has a nice ring to it
03:31
ItsMeLenny
magiclantern is making some progress in bringing 12bit and 10bit raw video to the cameras, rather than the 14bit, so i may finally have a camera that records raw at a decent resolution
03:32
ItsMeLenny
although it still doesnt fix the limitation of the terrible sensor inside of it
03:33
ItsMeLenny
Bertl, in terms of that "the shoebox prototype" what is the board that is inside it that looks like a motherboard
03:33
Bertl
the big green one is the ZedBoard
03:34
Bertl
it is a Zynq Z-7020 based FPGA development board with an LPC FMC connector
03:34
ItsMeLenny
oh
03:34
ItsMeLenny
ive gone onto their website, i will have a look around
03:35
Bertl
if you want to get something similar, better get a MicroZed or PicoZed, which can be (re)used for the Beta
03:35
ItsMeLenny
ah
03:35
ItsMeLenny
they dont seem to have that 7020 up anymore, only a 7000
03:35
jucar
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03:36
Bertl
7000 is the generic name for the Zynq platform
03:36
Bertl
i.e. there is no Z-7000, they start at 7010, 7015, 7020
03:36
Bertl
where 7015 is new and kind of special
03:36
ItsMeLenny
oh
03:37
ItsMeLenny
to be honest, whatever they are they look a little over my head :P
03:37
ItsMeLenny
are they "like an arduino"
03:37
Bertl
like a very advanced arduino, yes
03:38
ItsMeLenny
and very expensive arduino
03:38
Bertl
yes, indeed
03:38
Bertl
but the funny thing is, for an FPGA dev kit they are rather cheap
03:39
Bertl
usually FPGA dev-kits start at $1000
03:39
ItsMeLenny
i'll put them on the in the future list, which is where the apertus ended up, ill be one of those people buying it fullprice
03:39
ItsMeLenny
yeah, 400 bucks isnt much in relative terms, i mean i spent ~2000 on my DSLR
03:41
Bertl
yes, except that there is no reason why those dev-kits cost so much
03:42
ItsMeLenny
do they have a shiny label though
03:42
Bertl
the FPGAs are relatively cheap compared to most of the dev-kit prices
03:42
Bertl
sometimes, yes :)
03:43
ItsMeLenny
gotta pay them $$$ for that shiny label
03:43
Bertl
good argument, we will add a shiny label to the Gamma :)
03:43
ItsMeLenny
good idea
03:43
ItsMeLenny
also put a racing stripe down the side of it so it goes faster
03:43
ItsMeLenny
and make a fluffy pink version for the ladies
03:44
Bertl
we were more thinking of a big, heavy, golden-chain version
03:45
ItsMeLenny
thatd probably sell well actually
03:45
ItsMeLenny
the axiom bling
03:52
Bertl
excellent name!
03:58
ItsMeLenny
made from pure gold
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07:53
mars_
102% \o/
07:54
Bertl
yay!
08:00
PhilippeJ
will it stop ?
08:00
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jucar
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08:03
mars_
i would really like to see that 110k stretch goal
08:09
Bertl
I'd say you have a pretty good chance
08:30
se6astian|away
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08:31
se6astian
good morning
08:32
mars_
morning se6astian
08:45
Legendin
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tyrone_
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08:47
tyrone_
i just seeh that apertus has made it.(i was over the weekend offline). congratulations to all.... :-)
08:51
Bertl
thanks!
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09:15
beat_b
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09:15
beat_b
Morning team! - Best selling AXIOM Beta: Super35 3rd Batch is not visible as a perk on Indiegogo anymore!
09:18
Bertl
it was renamed, it is now called Super35/16mm 3rd Batch
09:19
Bertl
but no problem if you got the wrong one, just let us know
09:19
beat_b
ah gotcha, much less clear
09:20
Bertl
yeah, we didn't know that the perks are so limited on indiegogo, it was necessary at some point
09:21
beat_b
understood :) - vote for 35mm is pretty clear :) think the 300fps are freeking a lot of people ;)
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g3gg0_
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09:37
mars_
103k! 69h left
09:40
se6astian
http://nofilmschool.com/2014/10/apertus-axiom-crowdfunding-succeeds-magic-lantern-support
09:40
se6astian
http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/axiom-beta-open-digital-cinema-camera-funded-on-indiegogo
09:45
ItsMeLenny
i'm still unsure as to why somebody would want to shoot with a rolling shutter
09:46
Bertl
because of the artistic effects!
09:46
ItsMeLenny
lol
09:46
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
09:46
ItsMeLenny
why doesnt hipstimatic have skew image rolling shutter effect :P
09:46
ItsMeLenny
okee dokee! night
09:46
Bertl
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shinokubo
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shinokubo
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09:55
se6astian
â¬103,981
09:55
se6astian
we might hit the LCD remote stretch goal today already!
10:07
aombk
ItsMeLenny, where do you live?
10:07
Even
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10:08
Even
hellos! wuuuuhhaaaxiom!! 104k congratulations! =)
10:09
ItsMeLenny
aombk, NSW australia
10:11
aombk
its strange that tourists behave that way
10:12
aombk
what places are those tourists from?
10:12
ItsMeLenny
sydney usually
10:12
ItsMeLenny
theyre city people
10:19
mars_
thx Even!
10:20
aombk
ItsMeLenny, well, thats strange behavior
10:39
ItsMeLenny
aombk, combination of just different cultures and big business people
10:39
ItsMeLenny
rich families dont have time to clean up after themselves
10:39
ItsMeLenny
:P
10:39
aombk
ItsMeLenny, you should do a documentary about it.
10:40
ItsMeLenny
aombk, talked about taht idea before
10:40
aombk
or even better a horror movie to drive tourists away
10:40
ItsMeLenny
lol
10:40
ItsMeLenny
id like to drive the tourists away
10:40
aombk
oh thats why you wait for axiom
10:40
ItsMeLenny
but really, everything is going to end up trashed in the end, particularly when they start tearing down the bush to plunk another suburb in between
10:41
ItsMeLenny
:P
10:41
ItsMeLenny
i didnt preorder
10:41
aombk
i like antitourist movies
10:41
ItsMeLenny
if i hadnt bought this DSLR i wouldve bought one, but then again the euro is quite strong against the australian dollar which is at the moment dropping rapidly every day
10:42
aombk
what dslr have you bought?
10:43
ItsMeLenny
canon 550D, i bought it a couple years back already
10:44
ItsMeLenny
i bought it about 3 years back now i think, back when i was first waiting for the axiom :P
10:47
aombk
yes i bought the same camera about the same time while waiting for axiom
10:51
ItsMeLenny
ah
10:51
ItsMeLenny
i think we may have discussed once in #magiclantern
10:51
aombk
get a super telephoto lens and start shooting the tourists :P
10:51
ItsMeLenny
im hoping they make progress with this 12 and 10bit raw
10:51
ItsMeLenny
lol
10:51
ItsMeLenny
christmas time
10:51
aombk
yes we probably have
10:57
aombk
i can make some sad depressing music for your video if you want, you can name it "the city people" and upload it to vimeo you can be famous and get into the cinema/tv/docu industry and make money and buy the beach or buy a house in the city and be a city people yourself
11:02
aombk
se6astian, the dictator will be a must or will the mobile phone offer the same funtionality?
11:23
se6astian
mobile phone will have the same functionality
11:23
PhilippeJ
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11:23
se6astian
sometimes phyiscal buttons are just more convenient
11:24
se6astian
â¬104,331
11:46
se6astian
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PhilippeJ
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13:16
comradekingu
ItsMeLenny: how can you get that authentic wobble without it?
13:18
ItsMeLenny
comradekingu, put a cube of jelly infront of the lens
13:18
comradekingu
Not acceptable, i want good wobble
13:20
se6astian|away
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13:21
aombk
you want static wobble or dynamic wobble?
13:26
tyrone_
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13:31
alexML
hey guys, what do you think about a MJPEG encoder? seems to be doable on FPGA: http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~ece734/project/s13/Agarwal_rpt.pdf
13:32
tyrone_
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13:32
alexML
(the MJPEG file format is very simple, basically just cat a bunch of jpegs and add a header)
13:35
se6astian
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ctag
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13:36
aombk
i am very interested in compressed footage out of the beta
13:37
alexML
I have a proof of concept code that records MJPEG on Canons (though at low resolution)
13:37
alexML
there is a MJPEG feed on old models, always enabled
13:38
alexML
(new ones only enable it when you connect via eos utility)
13:39
ItsMeLenny
doesnt h264 compress better than mjpeg
13:39
aombk
yes i think i remeber some example mjpeg videos you did
13:41
aombk
h264 is cpu hungry
13:43
alexML
maybe, but H.264 was discussed and seems very hard to implement: http://irc.apertus.org/index.php?day=05&month=10&year=2014
13:47
alexML
(I'm a total noob when it comes to FPGA programming)
13:53
ItsMeLenny
oh
13:53
ItsMeLenny
ah
13:58
PhilippeJ
alexML, personnaly I really like mjpeg
13:58
PhilippeJ
it would be even better to have compressed raw
13:59
PhilippeJ
it requires a codec that supports 4 "planes" (instead of the usual rgb ones)
13:59
PhilippeJ
afaiu, red uses jpeg2000 to encode each colour from the bayer data in a separate frame
14:01
alexML
baldand is the one to talk with about this subject: http://thndl.com/how-dng-compresses-raw-data-with-lossless-jpeg92.html
14:02
PhilippeJ
I already saw that, but in that case, you have roughly 1:2 compression
14:02
PhilippeJ
we might better have something between 1:5 and 1:10 imho
14:03
alexML
lossy compression
14:04
alexML
Adobe DNG converter does that, but it debayers first
14:05
aombk
i believe compressed raw is the way to go
14:05
alexML
here's a tricky test case for Adobe DNG lossy compression: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8520.msg85220#msg85220
14:06
alexML
(it's pretty extreme though)
14:06
aombk
uncompressed will produce too much data that many people will be unable to manage
14:06
alexML
indeed, especially at 4K
14:16
PhilippeJ
I'd say that curently it's not the focus for development, but it could be as soon as the rest is working (and depending on users needs)
14:16
aombk
of course
14:17
aombk
maybe codec development teams are interested in helping in some way
14:17
aombk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_codecs
14:21
aombk
on a side note:
14:21
aombk
In November 2010, Fiona Glaser, an x264 developer, published information in which she claims that one of Tandberg Telecom's (a Cisco Systems subsidiary) patent applications from December 2008 contains a step-by-step description of an algorithm she committed to the x264 codebase around two months earlier.[18][19] This was relayed by media, which remarked that the company who filed the patent was following the x264 project IRC development channel and was
14:21
aombk
known to the project developers,[20][21] leading to Tandberg claiming that they discovered the algorithm independently.[22]
14:23
ItsMeLenny
yeah, just imagine whats going on with daala
14:23
ItsMeLenny
im off to bed
14:23
PhilippeJ
not a lot of codecs would be suitable for storing raw. One option is to separate each color and compress independantly 4 grayscale frames (one for each color). There is also http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=JP4
14:23
ItsMeLenny
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14:24
PhilippeJ
but the workflow is not great
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macbookprocmc
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14:38
aombk
what workflow? internal or external user workflow?
14:41
PhilippeJ
I mean as soon as you don't provide the whole suite of tools to convert a recorded file to some usable file for post, it makes it harder for people (for example magic lantern mlv converter/player is a great usability boosts for postproduction workflow)
14:48
aombk
why 4 colours? is elphel rgbw?
14:49
aombk
or because of the two green pixels?
14:52
Juicyfruit
the JPEG XR codec also could be used to encode each colour from the bayer data in a separate frame similar to what some people use jpeg2000 for and jpeg XR is nicer todo in hardware at least in my opinion
15:04
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15:07
PhilippeJ
aombk : yes because there are 2 green pixels
15:08
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seku
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15:08
seku
hiyas, back from holidays, and again congrats!
15:11
PhilippeJ
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15:26
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
15:26
Bertl
back now ...
15:26
Bertl
wb seku!
15:28
seku
hi bertl, awesome week :) it seems i got my birthday present even before the 8th october :)
15:29
Bertl
yeah, looks like we made it ... big time :)
15:30
Bertl
funny detail from the indiegogo stats, we got about 1 EUR per visit :)
15:31
seku
that makes for a lot of visits :)
15:31
seku
i mean, for an opensource videocam thats a lot
15:32
aombk
bertl share some more statistics
15:36
intracube_afk
changed nick to: intracube
15:37
Bertl
about one quarter of the contributions come from the US, about one seventh from Germany, France and UK are on par with about 8%
15:37
macbookp_
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15:37
Bertl
followed by austria with about 6% \o/
15:38
Bertl
(that is contributions not amount of contribute money)
15:38
Bertl
(but the stats there look rather similar)
15:39
Bertl
we will certainly publish more stats and curves when the campaign is over
15:40
intracube
alexML: I'd really like a lossy encoding option for the camera - especially for recording @ high FPS
15:40
intracube
alexML: the other day I was wondering if it would be possible to distribute the frames across 5 independent lossy encoder chips (either MJPEG, h.264, etc)
15:41
intracube
then mux back to a single stream and flag as 25fps to be compatible with most software/hw media players
15:41
intracube
as I doubt many can play 300fps native :)
15:42
intracube
h.264 would have to be I-frame only of course. I'd think any kind of GOP structure would be impossible to manage
15:43
intracube
Bertl raised the issue of IP/NDA issues
15:43
intracube
maybe something will be made independent of the Apertus team - that's indeed the purpose of an open camera :)
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derWalter
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15:55
intracube
(I understand and agree completely why Apertus wouldn't want to produce hardware tangled with NDA + proprietary components)
15:58
intracube
â¬107,555 :)
15:59
derWalter
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16:07
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16:10
Bertl
I tried to contact the FFmpeg developer(s) regarding their custom codec and how complicated it would be to implement in FPGA
16:10
Bertl
but unfortunately I didn't get a reply
16:11
Bertl
I think we have to focus on getting the basic functionality working, so that developers around the world can experiment with codecs
16:11
nnailer
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16:11
Bertl
I don't think we will see useable codecs before everything else is working and optimized
16:14
intracube
Bertl: yup, of course
16:14
intracube
it's still nice to dream of the possibilities
16:16
intracube
Bertl: which custom Ffmpeg codec do you mean?
16:18
Bertl
FFV1
16:20
intracube
ah
16:22
danieel
regarding codecs - most of them are 8bit, so unusable for another reason
16:23
danieel
going lossless in realtime does not help you much, except some extra recoding time, as you still have to design for worst case
16:24
danieel
aombk: if you cant handle uncompressed 4k, then its not for you :)
16:26
aombk
uncompressed 4k is not for many people
16:27
danieel
the compressed one can be hardly called 4k...
16:28
aombk
4k can hardly be called 4k
16:29
danieel
well, my 4k live still looks better than fhd out of red :)
16:30
Bertl
great for you, how is it related to apertus/AXIOM?
16:30
aombk
if this campaign stated clearly that no attempt for compression will ever be made by anyone and this camera will only output uncompressed 4k, i dont think it would have succeeded. so i think it is better that people like you, that dont like compression and can handle 4k uncompressed, to let people that cant handle it and like compression, talk about compression :)
16:32
danieel
so the benefit of compression is?
16:32
Bertl
obviously there are some benefits for both, lossy and lossless compression
16:33
Bertl
lossless compression reduces the amount of stored data, which increases the time you can record
16:33
Bertl
lossy compression reduces the bandwidth, which allows you to get more frames/size through the same bottleneck
16:34
Bertl
danieel: I wonder if there is anything you are really willing to contribute or if you are just hanging around here to confuse people and/or brag about your proprietary/closed source achievements?
16:35
aombk
he is willing to contribute his non-compression algorithms
16:36
aombk
and i bet they are lossy
16:38
danieel
my needs are different - i want native resolution - not a downscaled one and no quality compromise with a lossy compression... so far what you show is a rather averagely performing/designed equipment
16:40
aombk
are your needs met by your camera?
16:47
danieel
almost yes, form factor has to be still decided
16:49
comradekingu
aombk: its a cinema camera, uncompressed is where the intended use makes the most sense
16:49
comradekingu
and its up to anyone to implement anything
16:50
comradekingu
if you want something thats more for everyone, there is a fullhd camera also
16:51
aombk
sorry but your comments dont make any sense
16:52
comradekingu
why not
16:53
comradekingu
In the hypothetical world where it could have been a camera artificially restricted to never do compression, maybe it wouldnt be successfull, but thats beside the point, it wouldnt be a foss camera then
16:56
aombk
so why do you argue against compression since there are people that know they want compression and are willing to try it once the beta is in their hands?
16:56
comradekingu
i dont
16:56
aombk
ok
16:56
intracube
"<danieel> regarding codecs - most of them are 8bit, so unusable for another reason"
16:57
danieel
yes?
16:57
comradekingu
thats the point of something that says beta. I hope nobody is let down by how that works.
16:57
intracube
yes, 8bit is icky for grading, but if the initial camera profile is close to the final intended grade
16:57
intracube
and only mild grading needs to be done, then 8bit lossy codec might be viable for a lot of people
16:57
danieel
it may make sense if you output the final image, but that is almost never the case at raw cameras / cinema cameras
16:58
comradekingu
But the purpose is making cinema products, thats the alluring feature, so thats what needs to work first and foremost
16:58
danieel
comradekingu: PL mount :)
16:58
intracube
danieel: I know, but it's a feature some people may well use
16:58
comradekingu
It seems the FullHD version was dropped due to not being purchased
16:58
intracube
danieel: I'm thinking about recording high FPS
16:59
comradekingu
well compression is better for when you want to have it, i understand that now we dont and that it could be implemented
16:59
intracube
8bit lossy might be doable, whereas 4k uncompressed/lossless compressed might be a complete no-go
16:59
comradekingu
The campaign is that it is, and that makes sense. Adding compression makes more sense
16:59
danieel
hard to tell if there will be enough resources to do HFR even at 2k
16:59
danieel
i mean to do the compression of the image
17:00
intracube
as I commented earlier, maybe some custom encoding hardware (multiple encoder chips working together) could work
17:00
danieel
is there a space in beta for that?
17:01
danieel
seems rather restricted to few plugs on the sides
17:01
intracube
realistically it wouldn't be for the beta
17:01
intracube
more likely the gammma
17:01
comradekingu
How about having two sliders instead of nobs on this https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/893916/files/20140930133828-dictatorIIconcept04.jpg?1412109508
17:01
danieel
ok, then that is different story
17:01
comradekingu
Then you know where you are, and its easier to follow focus
17:01
comradekingu
without shaking
17:01
intracube
lots more important things to do over the next 18 months :)
17:03
intracube
anyone that wants lossy encoding for the Beta (at least early on) could get an Atomos or equiv
17:04
danieel
intracube: the sad thing is that anybody who wants to actually record anything, would need a recorder
17:04
intracube
why is that sad?
17:05
intracube
you're expecting the Beta camera to record on-board right from the start?
17:05
comradekingu
for me its because there are no similarly foss recorders
17:05
comradekingu
and because i imagine a s-ata interface would have been cheaper
17:05
danieel
because it forces users to get an unnecessary equipment
17:05
danieel
name one pro camera which does not record at all
17:06
comradekingu
thats beside the point
17:06
comradekingu
if you compare to pro cameras its the cost of the total package that matters
17:06
comradekingu
and only that
17:06
intracube
danieel: you're comparing a BETA camera to a PRO (production ready) ARRI?
17:06
comradekingu
before you get to comparing anything else the axiom beta is very promising
17:07
comradekingu
its a very unfair comparison, and if you are moreso inclined for an existing pro model, then get that one
17:08
comradekingu
you can record photograps, thats what i want to use mine for, and yes, i have a "professional camera" but the menus there arent good
17:17
comradekingu
Make whatever you want yourself, because then others like you will want the same. There is already a community around an idea, and thats because its a viable way to go
17:17
comradekingu
Hopefully it will be more to everyone down the road, hope i can help at least a little bit
17:18
danieel
comradekingu: cinema is motion picture, not stills
17:25
aombk
danieel, what do you plan to do with your camera?
17:27
g3gg0
hi.
17:27
aombk
hi
17:27
g3gg0
didnt read much of what you wrote regarding compression :) just a short hint: http://thndl.com/how-dng-compresses-raw-data-with-lossless-jpeg92.html
17:27
g3gg0
we are experimenting with it for 14 bit RGGB raw
17:28
g3gg0
but i am afk again :) cu l8er after dinner
17:38
Bertl
and most importantly, it's apples and oranges, because none of the "professional cameras" are FOSS/OH, so while danieel might compare his proprietary solution to other "professional" proprietary solutions, I do not see a point for comparing any of them with the AXIOM
17:40
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
17:55
seku
theres people who want uncompressed raw. all good. theres as many, if not more who wish to use the advantages of RAW (latitude, moving exposure, white balance, whatevs) even in a compressed format
17:55
seku
i had been using some cineform raw, and while i wasnt completely happy with the debayer... it felt nice
17:58
seku
lossless jpeg, mjpeg, jpeg2000, opensource wavelets ... so many options to be examined
17:59
seku
while i have no problems storing ML raw data at fullHD... i think it will get a bit hard with lossless 4k for the common mortal... and me too (this coming from a data hoarder with 90tbyte-ish space)
18:01
seku
just a hobbyists opinion
18:02
seku
:)
18:02
aombk
its not compression or not both needs can be met.
18:02
Bertl
only 90Tbyte?
18:03
aombk
close to 1st stretch goal
18:05
seku
total space. primary raid60 is at around 43 tb
18:05
seku
2x20tb for backups
18:06
seku
i always liked to go overboard
18:11
tyrone_
joined the channel
18:32
seku
shrugs
18:32
Bertl
doesn't seem so much to me :)
18:33
seku
youre right. for 4k it is rather small
18:35
g3gg0
re
18:35
Bertl
wb g3gg0!
18:35
seku
re g3gg0
18:36
g3gg0
for ml we are testing this workflow: recording totally raw bayer and for archiving using the lossless JPEG92 algorithm that shrinks data down to ~60-70% of its original size
18:37
g3gg0
tried plain LZMA before, but it was very slow and didnt give better results
18:37
g3gg0
also tried differential encoding, but it also didnt give much better results
18:38
g3gg0
theres a lot of possibilies that one may chose :)
18:38
seku
the DNG compression you worked on earlier? this would bring 4k raw to around 200mbyte/ish? for 24fps
18:39
g3gg0
that link i posted? thats LJ92
18:40
g3gg0
i am adding this as archiving option to the mlv tools
18:40
seku
:D
18:40
g3gg0
so after shooting, you can process it over night to shrink data to 50-70% of its original size
18:41
Bertl
and 60-70% (i.e. 30-40% reduction) is worth the compression?
18:41
g3gg0
if you are confident that you can live with only 11 or 12 bit per pixel you can reduce data another 10-20%
18:41
g3gg0
ask the guys who have terabytes of video footage
18:42
seku
tell me about it :)
18:42
g3gg0
they'd kiss you for saving 50% of the disks :)
18:43
Bertl
yeah, maybe, but in a production this is probably not worth the time and effort, no?
18:43
seku
the thing i wonder about tho is that as alex is working on expanding dynamic range, will 10 or 12 bit be sufficient?
18:43
g3gg0
citing andrew baldwin: "MLVs using LJ92 would be 50-70% of the uncompressed originals, would still be playable in real time (actually, playing becomes easier when the files are smaller), would have no detail lost, and would be very easy to convert into compressed DNGs simply by copying the embedded raw LJ92 images as-is. Then I would be able to free up a bunch of my backup 3TB HDs... for more raw"
18:43
g3gg0
yes that depends on the user base.
18:43
g3gg0
ML is aimed towards hobbyists and just touching the profesisonal shooters
18:44
g3gg0
(videographers i mean)
18:44
Bertl
okay, fair enough
18:44
seku
well, ML hobbyist here :)
18:44
g3gg0
real professional videographers, who usually play in canon C300, alexa, red etc class of cameras, they might not benefit that much of ML
18:45
g3gg0
semiprofessionals definitely do. and they have limited budget but big plans :)
18:45
g3gg0
hehe hi seku :)
18:45
Bertl
actually the easier playback in realtime would make a good point
18:46
Bertl
but I guess that is just because most storage systems are too slow
18:47
g3gg0
t.b.h i didnt do any tests with the lj92 algorithm baldwin proposed yet. i just implemented it and checked if i can compress and decompress successfully :)
18:47
seku
how much is 4k raw actually? around a gigabyte/sec?
18:47
g3gg0
so no idea if it will slow down realtime playback
18:47
Bertl
seku: depends on the framerate and bitdepth
18:48
seku
i guess i could calculate it too xD
18:48
g3gg0
500MiB/s for 25fps and 14 bit
18:48
g3gg0
530 i think
18:48
g3gg0
(x * y * bpp / 8) * fps bytes
18:48
g3gg0
4096 * 3072 etc
18:48
seku
if you could halve that via JPEG92 most ssds should do fine?
18:49
g3gg0
saving?
18:49
g3gg0
or do you talk about reading?
18:49
seku
saving
18:49
g3gg0
uh
18:49
g3gg0
realtime compression with that huge amount of data.. uh uh :)
18:50
g3gg0
i bet your FPGA cluster will definitely get hot
18:50
g3gg0
(stomach feeling)
18:50
seku
fpga or the parallela boards i guess xD
18:50
Bertl
that might be a point where e.g. the parallella could shine
18:50
g3gg0
yeah, then its doable perhaps
18:51
g3gg0
thats a good GSoC project :)
18:51
g3gg0
i bet it will find support
18:51
seku
heh, if this were doable, that would mean only twice the datarate of ML RAW.
18:51
seku
this would feel manageable.
18:52
seku
still 700 gigs per hour. will make some people scream :D
18:52
seku
but im used to 350 with ML anyway
18:52
g3gg0
haha
18:53
g3gg0
you are hobby videographer you said?
18:53
seku
yesh
18:53
seku
holidays, conventions, few concerts... fun stuff only.
18:53
g3gg0
private videos or some public viewable content?
18:54
g3gg0
i.e. nothing i would remember from forums i guess?
18:54
seku
nothing i dare put on public yet ... but eventually i will :)
18:54
g3gg0
ok :)
18:54
seku
nah, didnt dare. so many good ML videos out there already
18:55
Legendin
joined the channel
18:56
seku
i am still fiddling around with an all-Resolve workflow, keeping the raws from beginning to the end
18:56
g3gg0
mlvfs?
18:56
seku
but again, im just a hobbyist, im in it for the fun, not necessarily what makes sense business wise
18:57
seku
been looking into mlvfs, but i run *shrugs* windows for my desktop. need my avisynth
18:57
g3gg0
windows version of mlvfs? ;)
18:58
seku
seems i havent been keeping up to date
18:58
Bertl
avxsynth :)
18:58
g3gg0
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13268.0
18:59
seku
for now i usually let my mac do the conversion via rawmagic. for FPN etc
18:59
g3gg0
you get a virtual directory for every MLV file that generates all .dng files on the fly. just like FITS, JPG and WAV.
18:59
g3gg0
but its too ML-specific. dont want to hijack apertus chat for that :)
18:59
seku
into CinemaDNG with sound synch
19:00
seku
well, i think it could be very interesting to apertus too? recording in ML, and directly mount the files transparently to resolve, etc
19:00
g3gg0
RawMagic is banned by ML
19:00
seku
oopsie, again i wasnt keeping up. been on holidays the last few weeks
19:00
seku
filming :)
19:01
g3gg0
GPL violation stuff etc.
19:01
g3gg0
but yes, .mlv already provides some establishing toolchain
19:01
seku
sighs
19:01
seku
did he really have to do that.
19:01
g3gg0
thats why we offered our support and recommend to use a common toolchain
19:02
g3gg0
to save time by re-using already existing open standards
19:02
seku
reading up on said thread right now
19:03
seku
well, i could also just write a bash script and automate it through mlvdump... but i admit i was a bit lazy :(
19:10
seku
whoa, long discussion
19:11
seku
i will be looking closer at mlvfs :D
19:13
Bertl
g3gg0: what exactly is mlvfs doing? and how?
19:13
seku
heh, WebDAV... nice .
19:13
seku
Bertl, http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13268.0
19:13
comradekingu
danieel: an image sensor is an image sensor. Its old-fashioned to call a camera video or still, because any camera does both these days
19:14
seku
FUSE system with *nix, WebDAV with winblows
19:14
g3gg0
Bertl: this was initially the idea to use FUSE for mouting MLV videos as virtual disk that provide all single frames as .dng that are generated on the fly
19:15
g3gg0
i loved the idea, but FUSE doesnt work on windows. so i recycled an old WebDAV server i wrote once and added MLV extraction here too
19:15
seku
and it even does FPN correction and chroma smoothing *mumbles* i should have looked into this earlier
19:15
Bertl
so it's fuse on linux, webdav on windows as seku said?
19:16
g3gg0
yep
19:16
se6astian
first stretch goal reached!
19:16
Bertl
\o/
19:16
g3gg0
wow amazing
19:16
Bertl
more work for us!! :)
19:16
seku
already? WOW
19:16
g3gg0
haha
19:16
seku
thats great!
19:17
seku
that makes me hope for the second stretch goal ... would love to use my stabilized lenses with ti
19:17
seku
altho... with global shutter thats less of an issue :)
19:17
Bertl
se6astian: btw, we got a great idea yesternight for a new AXIOM flavor
19:18
Bertl
the AXIOM bling
19:19
Bertl
24kt gold, with a big golden chain
19:21
seku
maybe add a golden farraday cage around the camera
19:21
Bertl
nah, no serious rapper would wear that
19:21
se6astian
nice, would have probably sold better than our organs
19:21
seku
true :(
19:21
se6astian
nobody wants them....
19:22
seku
i liked that take on the 20k :)
19:22
seku
had to laugh
19:30
Gegsite
joined the channel
19:33
se6astian
What if Stanley Kubrick had built the AXIOM, now we know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JxAJkmcjo
19:35
seku
youre having fun i see :D
19:35
seku
what about that fair labour part? xD
19:36
Bertl
you mean, it's not fair to have fun while doing work? :)
19:36
seku
the more the better :)
19:39
theuberkevlar
joined the channel
19:39
intracube
heh @ recut video
19:40
Gegsite
cool what editor sw is used?
19:40
intracube
but seriously, are all apertus users high on caffeine! :P
19:42
theuberkevlar
This might be a stupid question, but will the Beta have controls built in to the body as well? Or will there be a way to easily mount the remote control, say if I wanted to go handheld with the whole rig?
19:45
Bertl
theuberkevlar: excellent question
19:46
Bertl
the Beta base system will not have any controls on the body, but we are planning for a shield which gives some buttons/dials to work with
19:46
Bertl
the remote control will provide similar functionality, but we don't know yet if and how it will be attachable to the camera
20:02
g3gg0
some features people will ask for are e.g. wireless control using their tablet
20:02
g3gg0
with live view
20:02
Even
http://geizhals.de/faktor-zwei-fx2-pad-7-1001273-a1030571.html
20:03
g3gg0
wow, cheap
20:03
Even
3 years warrenty lol
20:03
Bertl
nice
20:03
Even
a hardcase would be dope
20:04
Even
with some physical buttons
20:04
Bertl
please send us one, we would have to pay twice the price in Austria :/
20:04
Gegsite
10" is needed :(
20:05
se6astian
Gegsite: dunno, a friend of mine did it, probably FCP or premiere
20:06
se6astian
g3gg0: wireless tablet camera control: yes (already possible with the Alpha), live video on tablet: no
20:07
Bertl
live video require RTP via WiFi, doable but needs to be implemented
20:07
Bertl
(but I'm sure somebody will add that sooner or later)
20:07
Gegsite
I did donate but actually dont know a bit in camera things... like is it has a finder built in?
20:08
Bertl
no built in finder
20:08
Bertl
there are renderings on the website and 3D models you can look at
20:11
Gegsite
sorry :) you can attach a monitor :) thats better.
20:13
seku
wtf, thats incredibly cheap
20:14
seku
well, a few weeks ago we already had the remote tablet liveview discussion
20:14
seku
biggest annoyance might be latency i guess
20:16
Gegsite
BTW I see lot of donaters they havent added the shipping cost (I did haha) what will happend to them?
20:17
aombk
probably will add it when they pay for the camera
20:17
seku
does shipping cost matter that much with a 2k sensor? i bet VAT or other import taxes might more
20:17
se6astian
we didnt ask people to add shipping cost to the camera
20:17
se6astian
only to the perks to receive t-shirts, buttons, etc
20:18
Gegsite
most of the donaters (incl me) do not buy anything just picks and shirts
20:18
se6astian
as the rest for the camera is due at ship anyway
20:18
seku
i might drive to austria to get mine. there are some nice roads in the mountains
20:18
se6astian
great :)
20:18
seku
or are they delivered from your belgian office? thats really close to me, and i could stock up on abbey beers
20:19
Bertl
personal pickup with coffe with the developers is always an option I guess :)
20:19
Bertl
most likely they will start in Austria
20:19
seku
i will add that perk then :)
20:19
seku
only 500ish kilometers
20:20
comradekingu
Is it possible to reuse the battery boards from the novena laptop for the battery addition?
20:21
Bertl
I have no clue what to answer to that question %-)
20:21
comradekingu
http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena_Main_Page#Battery_board
20:22
comradekingu
There was something on the opensource page about proprietary battery communication, which isnt needed. I should think its less effort to adopt an already existing design if one has to make the boards anyhow
20:22
seku
whoa, looks quite... overengineered for the beta? i guess one would stick with external rechargers and just connect the battery via cable to the axiom
20:23
seku
unless of course, 130k perk :)
20:23
Bertl
comradekingu: okay, I understand the question now
20:23
Bertl
well, laptop battery packs and camera battery packs are somewhat different
20:24
comradekingu
I think its an easy fix for something that would make dolley operated cameras more mobile
20:24
seku
btw .... 110k reached!
20:24
seku
just noticed xxD
20:24
comradekingu
:))))))))))
20:24
Bertl
on a laptop, you want to charge/discharge transparently
20:24
seku
first stretch goal :D
20:24
comradekingu
Bertl: its not a laptop battery pack, its an RC-car battery pack
20:24
regnirps
joined the channel
20:24
Bertl
on a camera you normally just switch the battery
20:25
Bertl
and rc-car with eDP?
20:25
comradekingu
Well, with this you could switch less often
20:25
seku
so we will get a remote :))))
20:25
comradekingu
and/or you could operate on-line
20:25
seku
heh, with some luck 120k will be reached as well
20:26
Bertl
in theory, if the battery pack includes an online charging manager, you can simply connect it to the DC/DC module planned for the Beta and be done with it
20:26
comradekingu
Bertl: i imagine switching batteries sometimes within the timeframe of when a shoot could be happening is less cool than something that lasts all day anyhow
20:27
comradekingu
Bertl: thats what the novena battery board is
20:28
comradekingu
Does the axiom beta camera need lots of different voltages, or just one that gets split up?
20:29
comradekingu
seeing it says 5-40V so i imagine its the latter
20:30
Bertl
yup, basically one power supply which gets regulated and distributed internally
20:36
regnirps
Hi all. Does the monochrome option mean high pixel area CCD like used in astronomy?
20:37
Bertl
it simply means no bayer pattern color filter and if you want, better IR responsiveness
20:37
seku
just another crazy idea... for fun. seeing as there are already color and monochrome chip versions available ... how far are we off lightfield sensors? :)
20:38
regnirps
So, something like stop-motin with a color wheel will be essentially like Technicolor as far as data density.
20:38
Bertl
seku: if you find one with open datasheets and somewhat sane interface, why not
20:38
seku
that would be a tad difficult, but i will search
20:39
regnirps
It could easily interpolate to the next order of magnitude in display sizes in the future.
20:39
Bertl
well, there is no point in having a sensor which requires a license or NDA :)
20:40
seku
well, i think its a microlens array above a normal cmos sensor. which allows diffierent DOF per .. pixel or bayer group
20:41
seku
weas more of a ¨what if¨question . for fun
20:41
seku
im far more interested in troy_s and alexMLs work on DR
20:42
regnirps
OK. A plain array like used for astronomy (Kodak makes em for example) would give great data but maybe not much point.
20:42
Bertl
I think the CMV4000 would be quite suitable for astronomy
20:43
seku
that reminds me, alexML posted a damn interesting paper a week ago or so about some new way of recording video. instead of going for a per-frame exposure, it would be continuous with a timestamp on each photon... if i understood the paper correctly
20:43
seku
felt like it has tremendous potential
20:44
regnirps
People get great results with the DSLR's these days, so yes. But the color sensors miss a lot of photons that the mono get.
20:45
seku
astronomy was my first love... never got into photography tho. do you do several filtered RGB exposures that you stick together with a mono chip?
20:46
regnirps
Kodak has back thinned CCD, so thin they bend like a piece of paper or film, and they illuminate from the back side for much better blue sensitivity.
20:46
regnirps
seku: Yes. They stack up witha color wheel and make each exposure balance for the color sensitivity of the sensor.
20:46
Bertl
regnirps: the CMV4000 is available as monochrome as well
20:47
Bertl
and the good news is, it is pin compatible to the CMV2000 :)
20:47
seku
that reminds me too of some peltier cooling discussions in this channel
20:48
seku
didnt know astronomy interest into the axiom was that strong
20:48
regnirps
Bertl: I will have to look at the coverage of the sensors and how it is read out. There isn't much application for this that can't be handled by simpler dedicated sensors.
20:49
regnirps
Cooling would appeal I think. But I think they would want a good CCD instead of CMOS.
20:50
regnirps
But, the Axiom is no much different in price from a good astronomy CCD and a lot off people like to make video of Jupiter and the Moon. Perfect for them.
20:51
seku
excuse me for my ignorance, but why wouldnt they go timelapse instead of video?
20:51
regnirps
Someone is bound to wrote astronomy specific consfiguration.
20:51
seku
(sincere question, i dont know anything about it)
20:52
regnirps
I think moons of jupiter move too fast and some are looking for transient phenomena.
20:52
seku
ah, theyre into the moons, and not jupiter :D
20:52
Q_
regnirps: I would assume that noise reduction is important there? Is it long expores or lots of frames, or a combination?
20:52
seku
mh... i thought of renting a house in iceland in the next years, and rent a nice telescope there... stargazing is a nice hobby
20:53
regnirps
Plus there is software to extract best frames and exclude atmospheric averations then stack them.
20:54
regnirps
Q_: The lots of frames method is gaining or taking over from long exposure in a lot of areas.
20:55
seku
especially with black reference frames... iirc. read up some articles about that a few years ago
20:56
regnirps
Yes, dark frames and flat field and low flat field get a black point an dgain for each pixel in the sensor. The newer software is what has allowed the DSLRs to be doing so well. Piles of 20 to 60 second exposures and bad ones rejected.
20:56
Q_
I was also about to mention flat field.
20:57
regnirps
I wrote all those routines back in the late 80's. It was cutting edge :-)
20:57
Q_
Now you just need a setup where you can track an object.
20:58
regnirps
A class mate in physics became the CCD guru at Kodak and supplied teh first big CCDs for Lick Observatory wher another guy I know built the cameras. It was way cool.
20:58
regnirps
Now, if I can juct make Sony pay for taking my ImageWorks product name!
20:59
Q_
Because you can actually see things move within that 60 second exposure.
20:59
seku
whoa nice
21:00
seku
Q_, there are a lot of telescope tracking solutions
21:01
seku
as 12 year old i missed the money tho ... and i like in mid europe. a whole damn lot of light pollution. very meh.
21:01
seku
*live
21:01
regnirps
I have magazine adds and articles going back to '88 I think. Mayeb more. Product of the year, etc. Their lawyers would just blow me off I suspect.
21:01
regnirps
seku: iTelescope.net
21:02
seku
thanks :)
21:02
regnirps
Use the best from great locations. Do the free trial with a small scope.
21:03
seku
you can use them just like that?
21:03
regnirps
You can sign up for a free trial with a couple of the 100 to 150mm scopes. Really nice ones wth great cameras.
21:04
seku
just watching the introductory video... very fitting with Bach music. what else would fit that grandeur :)
21:04
regnirps
Get your school to sing up for an account and use $60K telescopes by the hour.
21:04
regnirps
sign
21:05
seku
unfortunately im out into business life for nearly 10 years now :)
21:07
regnirps
Still pretty cheap if you have a specific target plus big discounts for nights with a moon. The deep sky photographers can't work with moonlight.
21:08
seku
yesh, i know
21:08
regnirps
Bertl: I have a perspective question not really related to Axiom.
21:09
Bertl
let's hear, while I'm still awake :)
21:09
regnirps
seku: Plus with the nice Australian site you can do southern hemisphere.
21:09
regnirps
Say I have a line sensor and mount verticaly in a camera.
21:09
seku
very interesting site, thanks for linking
21:10
regnirps
Then move an object on a platform with a stepp to get something like a product photo.
21:10
regnirps
What would you all the resulting perspective?
21:10
regnirps
call
21:11
regnirps
I think is is flat projection like a mechnical drawing for left-right adn whatever perspective the lens normally has for top-bottom. Don't know if there is a name.
21:12
regnirps
I have seen a guy who does this for a passing train and thought about trying in a photo booth.
21:12
regnirps
Product tent/lighting booth.
21:12
Bertl
well, it is the same as a scanner
21:13
Bertl
i.e. one axis is parallel projection and the other is distorted
21:13
Bertl
unless your line sensor doesn't use any lens systems
21:13
regnirps
Scanner for the horiizontal component I agree. But I think there is some lens perspective for the vertical where you are basically getting one column for a virtual camera.
21:14
Bertl
that's what I mean, the line scanner has perspective properties
21:14
Bertl
but the scan itself, if you move left/right has parallell projection
21:15
Bertl
you could also rotate the line, in which case you would get perspective again
21:16
regnirps
Yes, I guess it does. I don't put 3D object on a scanner very often, but yes. I wonder how it would look for products.
21:16
regnirps
I have a couple of broken 220 backs for RB-67 and I could fit a sensor.
21:18
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21:29
regnirps
seku: Check the all-sky cameras. I see the Moon is blinding the one in Spain. On clear nights they are pretty cool.
21:32
regnirps
Will one be able to buy the $350 EUR deals, after the funding period ends?
21:34
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21:36
Bertl
regnirps: nope
21:39
seku
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22:12
g3gg0
Bertl: why not use simple RC car battery packs? :)
22:12
g3gg0
or 18650's
22:14
g3gg0
latter have the advantage of being cheap and chargers cost about 3â¬
22:14
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22:22
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22:23
Bertl
g3gg0: all are options for the Beta I guess
22:25
intracube
Bertl: any idea how many amps the beta will likely take?
22:26
Bertl
depends on the configuration
22:26
Bertl
somewhere between 1 and 20 A at 5V :)
22:27
intracube
that's.... quite a range
22:28
Bertl
it's a ballpark number, we know the maximum power consumption for the parts, but we do not have any real world usage patterns yet
22:29
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22:31
intracube
Bertl: 20A would limit the portability somewhat :P
22:32
Bertl
probably, yes
22:34
dmjnova
Bertl: what would be using that much amperage?
22:35
dmjnova
don't think the sensor and fpga alone require that much
22:35
dmjnova
or is that including a full PC recorder?
22:35
Bertl
no, but shields, USB, recording, etc
22:36
Bertl
but as I said, ballpark, do not take it as expected value, more as an absolutely worst case which is unlikely to happen
22:36
dmjnova
I could see that if your recorder was also power hungry or you had a lot of things on
22:36
dmjnova
yeah
22:37
dmjnova
probably more 5-10A unless you have a beefy recording system
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22:40
intracube
FPGA looks like it might have quite high amperage requirement. at least compared to the sensor
22:41
intracube
so choices in how to downscale; 2x2 binning on sensor vs interpolating in FPGA will probably matter
22:43
intracube
anyways, thanks for the input Bertl
22:44
intracube
dmjnova: are you part of the apertus team?
22:44
Bertl
you're welcome!
22:45
Bertl
just to get a real world idea, the AXIOM Alpha runs from a 3A/12V power plug
22:47
dmjnova
intracube: I like to think so :)
22:47
intracube
so if the Beta was comparable, you could get a couple of hours record time with an 8Ah battery
22:47
intracube
maybe something like: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tracer-12v-Lithium-Polymer-Li-Po-Batteries-8Ah-to-22Ah-With-Mains-12v-Chargers-/281130664515
22:47
intracube
dmjnova: cool. I didn't realise :)
22:48
dmjnova
but not as significant as Bertl or se6astian
22:48
intracube
hehe
22:48
intracube
and the looks like there's a chance â¬120,000 funding could be reached
22:49
intracube
it doesn't seem to be dipping that much
23:02
se6astian
time for bed
23:03
Bertl
yeah, I guess I'm off to bed now as well ...
23:03
Bertl
have to get up early tomorrow ...
23:03
Bertl
have a good one everyone! cya!
23:03
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
23:04
se6astian
good night!
23:04
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
23:14
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