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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2013/09/05

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02:19
shvelo
left the channel
02:24
shvelo
joined the channel
03:34
shvelo
left the channel
09:13
S3bastian
joined the channel
12:03
sasha-w
joined the channel
12:34
S3bastian
hi sasha-w !
12:34
sasha-w
Hey man, how are you going?
12:34
S3bastian
fine fine
12:34
sasha-w
I've got some nice news for you
12:34
S3bastian
I finally started writing that cinema projection article
12:34
S3bastian
https://www.apertus.org/small-cinemas-vs-the-DCI-article
12:34
S3bastian
ohh, what is it?
12:35
sasha-w
Yeah, I've seen it
12:35
sasha-w
My girlfriend and I have just booked flights to Berlin for NYE.
12:36
sasha-w
We'll be arriving in Berlin on Dec 28th, heading to Hamburg to meet up with my brother and his wife & 2 kids for two days, then heading back to Berlin until 2nd Jan 2014.
12:36
sasha-w
Then we'll be heading down to Prague, Munich, Salzburg, Vienna, Krakow and Budapest.
12:37
S3bastian
Ohhh, fantastic!
12:37
sasha-w
Sooo... There's a chance we might be able to meet up with you briefly whilst in Vienna and say hi :)
12:38
sasha-w
Hey, going back to the Small cinema vs DCI article
12:38
sasha-w
Why have you divided the page into three columns of text?
12:40
S3bastian
thats great
12:40
S3bastian
you will get to see the Vienna winter supertour!
12:40
sasha-w
I'm looking forward to it!
12:41
S3bastian
Flavio has already got the summer tour two months ago :)
12:41
sasha-w
What type of winter coats would you recommend we wear?
12:41
S3bastian
but you will see the christmas market, snow, etc.
12:41
sasha-w
The heavy and thick variety?
12:41
S3bastian
-5 to 5°C
12:42
S3bastian
the text is divided into 3 colouns to increase reability
12:42
sasha-w
I figured that was the reason why
12:44
S3bastian
http://www.stefanjud.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Wiener_Christkindlmarkt_Rathaus.jpg
12:46
S3bastian
thats the +5°C weather
12:46
S3bastian
and that is the colder day: http://www.christkindlmarkt.at/fileadmin/gallery/rathauspark/02_WienerKugel_0909_0748.jpg
12:46
sasha-w
Ooh, wow. Rachel will love this!
12:47
sasha-w
She probably won't enjoy the cold, but she'll love the markets :D
12:49
sasha-w
Back to the article's readability...
12:50
sasha-w
I personally find a narrow single column of text easier to follow
12:50
sasha-w
Like on Red Shark for eaxmple: http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/1042-sony-s-new-4k-camcorders-the-4k-revolution-has-now-happened
12:55
S3bastian
its a science :)
12:55
S3bastian
http://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-2/text-typography/length-column-width
12:55
sasha-w
I agree
12:55
S3bastian
http://designshack.net/articles/layouts/practical-tips-for-utilizing-columns-of-text-in-your-layouts/
12:57
S3bastian
I switched the second text block to 2 coloums full justify
12:58
S3bastian
please take a look and compare which one is easier to read for you
12:58
S3bastian
maybe making the divider line between the coloumns darker to give the blocks more visual separation could also help increase readability
12:59
sasha-w
I like the two columns text block
13:00
sasha-w
The three columns at the top seems a little squashed or crowded
13:00
sasha-w
The marked dividing line in all of the sections looks good
13:00
S3bastian
I turned the top block to 2 coloumns as well now
13:01
S3bastian
should the diving line be a bit darker?
13:02
sasha-w
Yeah, that looks great. And maybe add a line break between the text and picture so there's a little more "white / empty" space on the page
13:02
S3bastian
good idea
13:03
S3bastian
done
13:10
sasha-w
looks really good man
13:13
S3bastian
great, I will continue like this then!
13:14
S3bastian
we have so much content, this article will be huge :)
13:17
sasha-w
Cool
13:18
sasha-w
I want to put a question out there regarding the plans for an open-film making news portal
13:20
sasha-w
Seeing that sites like NoFilmSchool, Red Shark and Philip Bloom's blog, etc already have so much coverage of all cinema news / tech / film-making, I was wondering if it might be wise to not limit the portal's coverage to ONLY film related news
13:22
sasha-w
I believe if we cover news relating to open graphics / media creation, including photography, audio, digital painting AND film, we can attract a larger audience
13:23
S3bastian
sounds good
13:23
S3bastian
please post this suggestion to the mailing list
13:23
sasha-w
A lot of people might be looking for alternatives to the Adobe ecosystem now that it's all gone into the "creative cloud"
13:23
sasha-w
Ok, will do
13:23
S3bastian
maybe that way we can get those lazy people off their asses to do something for the project :)
13:24
sasha-w
yesss!
13:24
S3bastian
the mailing list has 25+ members already
13:24
S3bastian
but nothing is happening
13:24
S3bastian
I dont know what they need
13:24
S3bastian
kick in the butt?
13:24
sasha-w
good question. I'm not sure. Perhaps they're waiting for something?
13:24
sasha-w
I don't know...
13:45
Bertl
morning everyone!
13:47
S3bastian
hello!
13:48
S3bastian
I did some research about 1.8" ssds and usb 3 cradles
13:48
S3bastian
the result
13:48
S3bastian
there are none
13:48
S3bastian
or almost none
13:49
S3bastian
so what I propose is that we just build something like this: http://geizhals.at/?cat=hdzub&asd=on&asuch=sata%20usb3%20adapter into the drive bays where the 1.8" SSDs are slided in to dock with
13:51
Bertl
the url gives me a number of different adapters
13:51
Bertl
(i.e. not sure what 'like this' is referring to)
13:53
Bertl
also, if you want to build an USB 3.0 to sata adapter with a custom USB 3.0 interface, we are probably better off if we design it ourself
13:53
Bertl
(than modify an existing adapter)
13:53
Bertl
*modifying
13:54
S3bastian
why would we need a custom one? or what advantage would it have over existing solutions?
13:56
Bertl
well, first, you want to minimize connectors
13:57
Bertl
second, AFAIK, there is no adapter with a defined interface USB 3.0 backplane style
13:58
Bertl
so we would need to build something around the adapter I guess?
13:59
Bertl
and finally, we want to minimize power and space, no?
14:00
Bertl
on a related note (interfaces) I did some research, and it seems almost impossible to get SDI/6G phy/drivers/serdes atm
14:01
Bertl
the best I could find is SDI/3G chips from texas instruments
14:01
Bertl
which cost about 40-50 USD per SDI/3G channel
14:02
S3bastian
ad USB3 backplane style -> we put the SATA to USB3 bridge ( the geizhals links) into the cameras drive bays, so they stay there
14:02
S3bastian
to the user the drive bays just have SATA connectors
14:02
S3bastian
and the position of the connectors on the physical drive seems to be standardized
14:02
Bertl
there are many different adapters on that link
14:03
Bertl
some with cables, others without
14:03
S3bastian
yes but the priciple is the same for all of them
14:04
Bertl
you mean, they convert USB 3.0 to sata? :)
14:04
Bertl
so let's pick this one:
14:04
S3bastian
http://geizhals.at/raidsonic-icy-box-ib-ac603a-u3-2-5-sata-auf-usb-3-0-adapter-a836454.html
14:04
Bertl
http://geizhals.at/digitus-sata-6gb-s-auf-usb-3-0-adapter-da-70326-a820021.html
14:04
S3bastian
both perfect :)
14:05
Bertl
how do we use that?
14:05
S3bastian
we connect the USB3 cable to our zynq PCB
14:05
Bertl
so no slots on the camera, just 2 USB 3 connectors, yes?
14:05
S3bastian
the SATA adapter is screwed to the camera internal drive bay
14:06
S3bastian
the usb3 ports can be internal
14:06
Bertl
and you want to do what exactly with the two adapter bricks and the cable?
14:06
S3bastian
if we have interfaces left we can also add an external one
14:07
S3bastian
put the brick into the camera body so the SATA connector is placed at the end of the 1.8" drivebay
14:07
S3bastian
and the cable can run inside the camera body to the zynq pcb
14:08
Bertl
well, first, I haven't seen such an adapter for 1.8" yet
14:09
Bertl
but that's probably not the issue
14:09
Bertl
but do you really want to put a lot of cable inside the camera?
14:11
S3bastian
I wouldnt mind the cables
14:11
Bertl
as I said, I'd understand if you say we put the SSD pack somewhere else and just have one/two USB3 cables running from the camera to the pack
14:11
Bertl
but I don't think it is a good idea to bloat the camera case with 'external' cables?
14:12
Bertl
especially as I do not see any advantage of this approach
14:12
Bertl
- it will consume more power
14:12
S3bastian
the sata<-> usb3 adapter itself is indendent of the physical dimensions of the disk isnt it?
14:12
Bertl
- it will be less flexible
14:12
Bertl
- it will be a lot larger than necessary
14:13
Bertl
- it will provide lower data rates and show/produce more noise
14:13
S3bastian
the advantage is that we save time/effort/money and get the same features by using things that are already available
14:14
Bertl
we can do that by reducing the camera to the essential parts
14:14
Bertl
(which doesn't include drive bays)
14:14
S3bastian
by just adding 2 usb3 connectors, right
14:14
Bertl
or sata if we find a sata solution
14:14
S3bastian
but with that the problem is that usb3 cables are not really meant for field usage
14:15
Bertl
or maybe even go for 3x SDI-3G and build ontop of that
14:15
Bertl
i.e. assume an SDI recorder for a start
14:15
S3bastian
the connectors can be pulled out easily, no water, dust protection, and we would also need to come up with a way to attach the drives to the camera in a convinient way
14:15
Bertl
the same problems you have to solve for the drives anyway
14:16
Bertl
or do you think that sata is water proof?
14:16
S3bastian
no but then the camera enclosure itself protects the drives
14:16
Bertl
so you need to design a ventilated but IP-44? catridge?
14:17
S3bastian
not to IP68 but maybe at least IP44
14:18
Bertl
I think we should focus on getting the camera working this century :)
14:18
S3bastian
not a cartridge I would just add a cap to cover the drivebays
14:18
Bertl
if we have so many resources available to do all those things, it will be trivial to adapt the camera and/or create a proper interface board later
14:18
S3bastian
I agree, all we discuss now is just for the concept
14:19
Bertl
so IMHO the focus should be on
14:19
Bertl
- sensor frontend
14:19
Bertl
- processing unit
14:19
Bertl
- serial (SDI/3G?) outputs
14:19
Bertl
- control/network in/out
14:20
Bertl
if we decide to go for the zynq platform, we have 2 GBit ethernet connections for example
14:20
Bertl
(basically for free)
14:20
Bertl
2x 1Gbit that is
14:21
Bertl
note that my recent test have shown that it doesn't achieve the full gbit speed (yet) but that might have many reasons
14:21
Bertl
we also might add SDI/3G serdes to the low end zynq without having the high speed GTX ports available
14:22
Bertl
which might even come cheaper than the GTX ports in the end
14:23
S3bastian
interesting
14:23
S3bastian
what limitations do we have with that?
14:25
Bertl
usually those serializers are 5:1 so we would clock it at 600MHz (i.e. 300MHz DDR)
14:25
Bertl
it would cost 5 LVDS channels and push the limits of the PL (at 3G)
14:25
Bertl
per channel, but it should be doable
14:26
S3bastian
btw without compression even 2 Gbit isnt even enough for UHD at 25 FPS
14:26
S3bastian
how many LVDS channels do we have left?
14:26
Bertl
depends on the chip/package
14:26
S3bastian
or how many 3G SDI ports could we get?
14:26
S3bastian
let me grab the zynq model list
14:27
S3bastian
"Multi-Standards and Multi-Voltage SelectIO Interfaces"?
14:28
Bertl
for the xc7z20 the clg484 package is the largest
14:29
Bertl
for the xc7z30, we have the fbg/ffg676
14:31
Bertl
the 676 package has 75 differential pairs AFAICT
14:31
Bertl
hmm, no, that's wrong, sorry
14:32
Bertl
the 484 package has 96 HR differential pairs
14:33
Bertl
the 676 package has 75 HP and 48 HR differential pairs
14:33
Bertl
we need 67 pairs for the sensor
14:34
Bertl
and we probably need 4 pairs for the ethernet
14:35
Bertl
so that would leave 5 SDI-3G channels
14:36
S3bastian
not bad
14:36
Bertl
(on the 484 package) assumed that we do not need any other interfaces which connect via LVD
14:37
Bertl
but I'm not saying that we should do that, I'm just saying we should evaluate our options there
14:38
Bertl
and I definitely think we should focus on getting the beforementioned stuff working and not on things like attaching hard drives or displays or whatnot (but that's just my opinion :)
14:39
S3bastian
its all for the concept
14:39
Bertl
as far as I understood there are perfectly fine solutions for attaching your favorite whatever to your camera
14:39
S3bastian
not for "getting it working"
14:39
S3bastian
sounds weird but we need to sell the camera before we can make it
14:39
Bertl
doesn't help if it affect the hardware design in a way we cannot handle
14:40
S3bastian
the concept is what people will "buy" in the crowdfunding campaign
14:40
Bertl
doesn't help either if it is what they will not get :)
14:40
S3bastian
sure we should find something that is realistic, but we should also be aware that it doesnt need to be up and running tomorrow then
14:40
Bertl
I'm all fine with having plans on how to extend the project once we have money and resources to do whatever we like
14:41
Bertl
but as I said, the focus should be on the essential parts at least in my opinion
14:42
Bertl
do we have a list what the first camera is supposed to do hardware like?
14:43
Bertl
i.e. what we want to build in hardware and code in software?
14:44
S3bastian
I sent a concept image to the mailing list some time ago
14:44
Bertl
don't get me wrong, a good design is essential (look and feel) and having options and features is also good (you are doing a good job there, no question)
14:45
S3bastian
Subject: Rethinking the Axiom concept - please particiapte
14:45
S3bastian
from July 10th
14:45
Bertl
but all I see from the technical PoV is a very blurry image, with a lot of cables :)
14:45
S3bastian
thanks
14:45
S3bastian
thankfully we have you to clear the fog :)
14:46
Bertl
luckily I have no problem being the 'bad guy' who always says 'that doesn't work :)'
14:46
S3bastian
its good that you put such a focus on viability, that will make the final concept we will present very realistic
14:46
Bertl
so from the Axiom concept, what interfaces do we have to the outside?
14:47
Bertl
SDI/6G (no technical solution available yet)
14:47
Bertl
SDI/3G (probably works, GTX or 5x LVDS)
14:47
Bertl
HDMI (we know that works)
14:48
Bertl
Ethernet (we know that works, but at lower than expected speeds)
14:48
Bertl
SATA2 (we assume that works, as there are cores available)
14:48
S3bastian
for version one, called "Axiom HD" in the concept image all we need is one 3G-SDI output and a power in connector, plus a usb or ethernet port internally for remote control of camera
14:48
Bertl
SATA 6G (no idea about PHY and no software solution)
14:49
Bertl
USB 3.0 (we assume it works, there is also hardware available)
14:49
Bertl
USB 2.0 (we know it works)
14:54
S3bastian
for version two called "Axiom 4K" in the concept image: usb3 or sataIII or SFP+ or something else...?
14:55
Bertl
so basically undefined :)
14:55
S3bastian
yes
14:56
Bertl
btw, raw, 12bit, 25fps will have 5Gbit/s
14:56
Bertl
(without any crc or similar)
14:56
S3bastian
the requirement is simple though: lots of data from the sensor should be dumped to any kind of recording media
14:57
Bertl
which brings us to the question: do we need/want to build the recording device?
14:57
Bertl
and if so, do we need to make it part of the camera
14:58
S3bastian
before we started rethinking sata we saw no other option
14:58
S3bastian
it should be dockable/combineable/usable as part of the camera
14:58
S3bastian
*no other option than an external recorder device
14:59
Bertl
so why not go for e.g. 4 SDI-3G outputs and no other interface at all?
15:00
Bertl
(besides ethernet for controlling the device)
15:01
S3bastian
yes that would be an option
15:01
S3bastian
but what about the recorder side then?
15:01
Bertl
well, any SDI recorder will do, no?
15:03
Bertl
if we design a concept for a connector/IO board (like for the sensor frontend)
15:03
Bertl
we can make it exchangeable as well
15:04
Bertl
and at a later time, we can provide SATA/USB/whatever there
15:04
S3bastian
I remember we talked about 4K SDI recorders already
15:04
Bertl
or simply plug in our own recorder
15:04
S3bastian
there are only 2-3 on the market (very expensive) and they only work with proprietary standards from other camera manufacturers
15:04
Bertl
we can provide a PC based solution with the 4x SDI 3G
15:05
S3bastian
like the Ki Pro Quad: http://www.aja.com/en/products/ki-pro-quad/
15:06
S3bastian
connector IO board for a pc ?
15:06
Bertl
see, the web page says 'affordable' :)
15:07
Bertl
yes, there are lots of SDI PCIe cards
15:08
Bertl
advantech makes 8Ch 3G-SDI PCIe cards for example
15:09
S3bastian
1000$ from blackmagic: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/decklink/models
15:09
S3bastian
DeckLink 4K Extreme
15:11
Bertl
that is 6G-SDI
15:11
Bertl
but yes, an existing solution
15:12
S3bastian
indeed
15:12
S3bastian
DeckLink Quad 995$
15:12
S3bastian
8 SDI ports
15:13
S3bastian
would be an option, close to what we had in mind a year ago
15:13
S3bastian
one sfp+ link to a PC
15:16
Bertl
as I said, I'm fine if we plan for some kind of I/O board which plugs into the 'main board' similar to the SFE
15:17
Bertl
and we start with having only SDI ports on that, or maybe only USB 3.0 ports if that is preferred for whatever reason
15:17
Bertl
with a similar LVDS interface to the main board like the SFE
15:18
Bertl
we can always extend that with a SATA I/O board which directly conencts to the disks for example
15:18
Bertl
all you need to do is to rip out the existing board and plug in the new one
15:18
S3bastian
but how do we decide what to show in the concept for the future?
15:19
Bertl
we can even consider stacking two or more I/O boards for shared use/combinations
15:19
Bertl
a modular concept and a basic design?
15:20
Bertl
probably folks around the world will join the I/O board development if we specify it properly and simplify building hard- and software
15:20
Bertl
like for example with existing designs for connectors and PCB dimensions/outlines, etc
15:22
S3bastian
good idea
15:23
S3bastian
for a modular approach we would need to decide on the interfaces between the modules though
15:27
S3bastian
ok I will do some thinking and adapt my concept to visualize the modularity somehow
15:28
S3bastian
showing different modular options is also a great way to clearly show that these things define "what we could do" not "what we will do"
15:31
Bertl
maybe we can do some kind of pluggable slices?
15:32
Bertl
i.e. have some mechanism to attach a number of slices (including case) onto eachother
15:32
Bertl
ending with the battery pack for example
15:33
Bertl
which in the basic configuration consists of the SFE, the MAIN slice and one IO slice finishing off with the battery pack
15:33
S3bastian
from an electric/electronic POV, what kind of bus system would be suitable for connecting all these?
15:34
Bertl
we definitely need to make it high speed to low speed
15:34
Bertl
i.e. high speed slices need to go closer to the MAIN unit
15:34
Bertl
but something like the FMC (just with a more flexible concept) would do
15:35
Bertl
it should be distributed, for stability reasons, i.e. at least two connectors on oposing sides
15:36
Bertl
and we would need to route power through it as well, so we probably need a high power connector as well
15:36
Bertl
(unless we do that with cables)
15:40
Bertl
we probably want to reserve one side for the connectors
15:41
S3bastian
we are not the first with that idea though :)
15:41
S3bastian
http://www.tvtechnology.com/uploadedImages/TV_Technology/The_Reference_Room/f-FRANK%283%29.jpg
15:41
S3bastian
http://nofilmschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/RED-Modules-616x414.jpg
15:41
Bertl
so that would leave two sides for the high speed connections and the oposing side for power connections
15:41
S3bastian
http://provideocoalition.com/images/uploads/RS2109IMG_5367.jpg
15:42
Bertl
well, I didn't expect us to be the first there
15:43
Bertl
but we shouldn't be the last to have no modular concept :)
15:43
S3bastian
definitely
15:46
S3bastian
one module is one PCB in most cases right?
15:47
S3bastian
so modules would rather be flat than a cube each
15:47
S3bastian
which would go in the direction of the T-cam a bit
15:47
S3bastian
http://www.negativespaces.com/storage/quick-photo/IMG_0270.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1303685704712
15:48
S3bastian
if we have several slices attached to the SFE
15:48
Bertl
no, 90° compared to that
15:49
Bertl
i.e. the PCBs would be parallel to the SFE and MAIN PCB
15:49
Bertl
the connectors would go to the left or right
15:49
Bertl
(the output/input connectors)
15:49
Bertl
the stack interconnect would be top/bottom (and the other side)
15:51
Bertl
just think of adding more (light) green boards at the rear end in http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/stacked.png
15:52
S3bastian
ok, exactly the red concept then :)
15:52
Bertl
maybe, no idea about that actually :)
15:53
Bertl
anyway, with SMT, we can have connectors on both sides, given that we have enough layers to handle them properly
15:53
Bertl
so it wouldn't be a problem to have several I/O cards
15:54
Bertl
alternatively, we could do a backplane concept
15:54
Bertl
(with the backplane sitting on the oposite side of the connectors)
15:55
Bertl
but that would limit/fix the thickness of the slices and the number of modules
15:55
Bertl
OTOH, it would allow some kind of 'hot' plugging those modules (not that I think this is a good idea)
16:03
S3bastian
I will adapt the concept and come up with something in 3d soon
16:04
S3bastian
I just need to very carefully find a way that doesnt look just like a rip of from what red did
16:05
S3bastian
ok time to go home now
16:05
S3bastian
typical nine to five job :)
16:05
Bertl
can you link me to the red concept?
16:07
S3bastian
http://cdn.theblackandblue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/epic5copy.png
16:07
S3bastian
http://camerarentalz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/red-scarlet.jpg
16:07
Bertl
okay, what if we design the modules as open blocks?
16:08
Bertl
i.e. for obvious reasons we want to keep it simple, so
16:08
S3bastian
physically "open"?
16:08
Bertl
we do not need a closed module
16:08
Bertl
all we need is a number of modules and a closing stub at the end
16:09
Bertl
i.e. the modules can consist of the PCB and just a frame around it
16:09
S3bastian
but then you cant easily swap modules
16:09
S3bastian
if you have to take the camera appart to access them
16:09
S3bastian
also how to make the holes for the connectors?
16:10
Bertl
take the red module and remove the sides where they connect to eachother
16:11
Bertl
so basically each module consists of one or more PCB and a frame around it, which holds the connectors to the outside
16:12
Bertl
and has connectors on each 'open' side to plug into another module
16:12
Bertl
(or the main unit)
16:12
Bertl
the last element will be the battery or if no battery is used/required, a stub just closing the stack
16:13
Bertl
the frames could be sturdy, if you want them to be light, maybe titanium?
16:13
Bertl
and they would plug into eachother similar to the PCBs
16:14
Bertl
in the first step, they could simply be placed on long threads/screws
16:15
Bertl
going through the entire camera body
16:15
S3bastian
I see
16:15
S3bastian
good idea
16:16
S3bastian
gotta go
16:16
S3bastian
see you
16:16
S3bastian
left the channel
16:22
sasha-w
left the channel