Current Server Time: 03:13 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/11/04

Timezone: UTC


23:16
Bertl
comradekingu: sliders have a number of disadvantages too, like for example the limited range
23:16
aombk
skinkie_, neurofunk is a music subgenre
23:17
Bertl
comradekingu: or for the ones based on a sliding potentiometer (i.e. variable resistance over sliding range) they usually wear out rather quickly
23:37
comradekingu
there are optical ones, adding a stepper motor to the rails must have been done already
23:38
comradekingu
A rotary knob that isnt without its limits is flawed in terms of working out where its at.
23:38
comradekingu
Is there something for which one needs better resolution than can be found on a slider?
23:39
comradekingu
it could be once of each maybe?
23:40
comradekingu
I just see it as intuitive to see on display the different values, then move the slider there. Practically takes all the motorical learning out of getting good results quick
23:41
Bertl
well, a rotary knob can easily be used to dial arbitrary precision values
23:42
Bertl
and if you need/want the optical feedback of a slider, you can always draw one
23:42
Bertl
(on the display, e.g. as "analog" bar from left to right or top to bottom)
23:44
Rebelj12a
Crazy idea dont think its been made before. Not even sure if its possible. Optical based rotary knob. Dont ask ill have to draw it.
23:45
Bertl
well, we plan to use encoder knobs, i.e. rotary encoders (they often are optical, but not all of them)
23:46
Rebelj12a
A fingerwheel option would technically be the best. Then you dont get the screen thouhg.
23:47
Rebelj12a
or the screen would be quite small to accomodate use wtih one hand
23:48
Rebelj12a
unless...
23:52
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
23:52
Rebelj12a
night
23:52
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
23:57
FergusL
left the channel
23:58
FergusL
joined the channel
00:26
intracube
left the channel
00:36
intracube
joined the channel
00:43
comradekingu
Rebelj12a: rotary optical sensors are found in trackballs. You move the wheel thats connected to a shaft that has a "knob" on the end of it
00:45
comradekingu
i have a nice rotary knob thats used for CNC things, it has a freewheel pin on it so you can spin it like a fishing reel
00:48
comradekingu
One of these things http://www.protoplant.com/Stepperature it does make noise when turning though
00:49
comradekingu
crazy idea, why not just fit a trackball, then you can adjust both at the same time
00:49
comradekingu
or you could hold down a button to make it just shutter
00:57
pizthewiz
left the channel
01:02
pizthewiz
joined the channel
01:03
intracube
left the channel
01:18
comradekingu
trackballs can reliably track in either x or y axis alone, and sensitivity can be set in stops if you want something thats ultraquick to work on
01:20
troy_s
Rotaries with a form of click would exceed a trackball in feedback capacities.
01:21
comradekingu
why not a trackball that clicks, why is other buttons not as good for clicking?
01:21
troy_s
Tracks certainly have their place, but I would think 99.9% of the interactive elements are linear in nature, and a single axis makes a decent design entry point.
01:21
troy_s
Trackballs tend to be less forgiving to elements.
01:21
troy_s
In particular, dust and grit. Sealed rotaries can hold fast.
01:21
comradekingu
aperture and iso are two linear values that you have on the same knob with a trackball
01:22
troy_s
Except you _never_ want to adjust both nor have it so.
01:22
comradekingu
you can get trackballs with weather sealing
01:22
comradekingu
troy_s: why not?
01:22
troy_s
In a panic, I can think of _nothing_ worse for a design. Frantically trying to change a shutter angle and accidentally changing an ISO etc.
01:23
troy_s
God awful idea.
01:23
comradekingu
Adjust zoom and shutter without moving your hands
01:23
troy_s
Just ask any owner of a BMCC how they feel about a touchscreen and you can probably get an idea.
01:23
comradekingu
im not arguing the point that touchscreen makes for a intuitive interface
01:24
troy_s
When the hell are you adjusting zoom (a lens issue) and shutter (a gate issue) at the same time? That need has been encountered exactly -13% of the time, but feel free to suggest otherwise.
01:24
troy_s
Touchscreens _suck_ on cameras.
01:24
troy_s
God. Awful. Horrible.
01:25
comradekingu
no reason to get upset
01:25
troy_s
And if you don't have faith in this sentiment, remember that the existing in-field cameras wrap up about a hundred years of experience.
01:25
troy_s
I am not.
01:25
troy_s
Just making it clear that touchscreens might look like a terrific idea on paper, but nothing could be further from the reality of day to day shooting.
01:25
comradekingu
I never argued for touchscreens
01:26
troy_s
Even look at EOS lenses with automated aperture... Guess what... Zero uptake in shooting land.
01:26
comradekingu
track-ball, not touch-screen
01:26
troy_s
There is a trend there if you look; mechanical and lower tech has value.
01:26
comradekingu
i agree with you
01:26
troy_s
Yes I know, and to make a case for a track, you probably need to cite a need case.
01:27
comradekingu
cite?
01:27
troy_s
As in a specific dual axis need.
01:27
troy_s
I can think of _one_, but the ball size would be vastly too small for it.
01:27
troy_s
(Applying a CDL transform on the camera.)
01:27
comradekingu
you have a matrix on the screen, and a way to adjust either axis on one control, faster
01:28
troy_s
Again, work the other way.
01:28
troy_s
What is the need?
01:28
troy_s
Find the need, then work to the design.
01:28
troy_s
Not the other way.
01:29
comradekingu
im not saying two dials isnt sufficient, im saying trackballs offer finer control and more input
01:29
comradekingu
what are all the different things to be adjusted?
01:29
troy_s
_that_ is a much better entry point ;)
01:30
troy_s
And on context, historical etc. also has a weight.
01:32
comradekingu
Meeting the curve at general acceptance rather than easy uptake for pros has the potential of being better for all
01:33
comradekingu
I never liked digital photography input, one of the reasons i got interested in apertus is i can build my own input
01:34
comradekingu
mathias quiet switches might be something to look at too
01:35
comradekingu
is there a design document for what the dictator does currently?
01:38
comradekingu
https://apertus.org/dictator
01:47
___anton___
joined the channel
01:48
___anton___
Bertl: finally I have dumped my mind on the net. Feels great to have this out :) This is child of lots of loving attention: the Tambov design for Axiom Beta body version 0.2
01:48
___anton___
http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov02.html
01:48
comradekingu
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Matias_switch
01:51
__anton__
left the channel
01:52
comradekingu
___anton___: could you include a link to the current proposed design, its hard to see what you tried to improve on
01:54
comradekingu
arent computer fans 80 92 or 120mm? Havent seen 100
01:54
___anton___
comradekingu: hi there, well it's not a current proposed design I would say rather the main design that is going full steam ahead :)
01:55
___anton___
comradekingu: you caught me a little of guard asking for a single document that would describe it. Basically the main design is Beta as we saw it on Indiegogo campaign page: very compact air flow cooled possibly with an optional fan at the top
01:55
troy_s
comradekingu: What you don't like about something may well be a byproduct of a design axis unknown.
01:55
comradekingu
it would be nice to have an exploded view with all the parts
01:56
troy_s
comradekingu: The flip side of your vantage is that if something can meet the industrial needs of imaging, the chances of it serving less industrial needs are high.
01:56
comradekingu
i dont know what the "problem" is to begin with, i only have a rudimentary idea
01:57
comradekingu
im dead tired, you have to make it simpler for me to follow conversation
01:57
___anton___
comradekingu: do you think I'm not? :)
01:58
comradekingu
oh, there were two different people talking
01:59
comradekingu
an A B comparison would be easier to follow
01:59
___anton___
my design goals were: make it sturdy, rig-friendly, more or less sealed, passively cooled
01:59
___anton___
with optional external fans
02:02
__anton__
joined the channel
02:03
comradekingu
"If we find that the bridge is transferring too much heat from the rear (hot) enclosure to the front (cool) " this sounds like a bonus to me
02:04
comradekingu
oh now i get it, the pcbs are inside that block
02:04
comradekingu
hehe, it made _no_ sense
02:05
comradekingu
i like it now
02:08
comradekingu
why not run the cables in a cable-gate through a round tube, less mechanical complexity, easier on the hand to hold
02:09
___anton___
yeah, the way I understood Bertl it's likely not going to work that well. We're running at least at 300Mhz or maybe more. I understand connection has to be very "good" to carry signals at these rates. Round cables in the tubes were my initial design :)
02:10
comradekingu
it can still be standard ribbon cables, it never moves
02:10
___anton___
there are at least 36 twisted pairs there. I understood that having them just mess around in a round cable w/o any shielding between pairs would limit the speed
02:11
___anton___
I understand twisted pairs are better than IDC cable
02:11
comradekingu
well if you are running long stretches
02:12
___anton___
these tubes are 15mm on the outside, some 11-13mm on the inside.. can't fit that much inside can we?
02:13
___anton___
probably flexible pcb-s could go inside... haven't come up with a sensible design with the though
02:14
comradekingu
i was thinking in the top tube, that is bigger. the problem is distance
02:15
___anton___
perhaps there could be a flexible PCB running in the top tube, that's even better than an IDC cable
02:16
___anton___
not sure how wide it has to be
02:16
comradekingu
signals aside
02:17
comradekingu
the top part, it doesnt need to be a triangle, go with square, and make it the top of each box
02:18
comradekingu
also the box on the back, why is it missing two boxen on the bottom? Could it be a skyscraper instead of a standing man?
02:20
comradekingu
make the end of the sylinders that stick out into screws to fasten it?
02:21
comradekingu
The way i see it the backplate comes off from the back, and the front comes off from the front, everything else is welded together
02:22
___anton___
comradekingu: re removing the triangle, do you mean this? http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-1-bis.png
02:22
comradekingu
its harder to run gaskets in 90 degree angles for the weather sealing, could make it slanted if you decide to keep the missing pieces
02:23
comradekingu
no, just the part that is on top there
02:23
comradekingu
it looks like a house, it could have been a rectangle which meets the handle going to the other side
02:26
comradekingu
making a mockup
02:27
___anton___
comradekingu: then you're suggesting this? http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-1-bis2.png
02:30
troy_s
comradekingu: We have crossed this before. You do not want more compact ;)
02:31
troy_s
___anton___: did that design run from baseplate to center of lens using the existing rod mount dimensions?
02:32
___anton___
troy_s: hi there :) in this design the only standard dimension is 85mm between the center of the _bottom_ pair of rods and lens center
02:32
___anton___
troy_s: and I do space both pairs of rods at 60mm between centers horizontally
02:32
troy_s
So it matches the cinema 19 rod dimension or one of the 15?
02:32
troy_s
Right, so yho
02:32
troy_s
So those rod holes are through holes ala R3D?
02:33
troy_s
As in open area?
02:33
___anton___
the bottom pair of rods here is 15mm light weight system
02:33
troy_s
(Is 85 the same dim on all four of those rod positions??)
02:33
___anton___
the top pair of rods does not match anything, it's part of camera body so to say
02:34
___anton___
people may still find top pair of rods useful. they can extend backwards and carry a battery, an ssd stack etc
02:34
troy_s
Is that open hole near the bottom air intake?
02:34
___anton___
nope, just a weight saver
02:35
___anton___
so the idea is this: the top pair of rods are "part of camera body". then to these rods you can attach adapters
02:35
troy_s
Right.
02:35
___anton___
one adapter I've shown in the illustration. it allows us to attach 15mm LWS rods
02:35
troy_s
So first thing I can see that is going to be problematic is the rod through holding the camera rod on.
02:35
troy_s
That needs to be plate based, so the bottom of the camera is your lowest point.
02:35
comradekingu
http://bayimg.com/cacmhaaGk
02:38
___anton___
troy_s: I'm afraid I'm a little lost to your explanation
02:38
troy_s
Yes comradekingu this image ___anton___
02:38
troy_s
http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-1-bis2.png
02:38
troy_s
Those are camera rods that appear attached to a slug that is attached to some structural rod?
02:39
troy_s
So a few things wrong there:
02:39
troy_s
A) Camera rods are through rods; they are fully capable of sliding to any distance or entirely out. They are secured with existing equipment that is split clamp based.
02:40
troy_s
B) The camera rods can never be fixed to camera as that would not allow for adaptation or alternate rod sets.
02:40
troy_s
C) The rods must be attached to a release plate (that in turn is bolted to the bottom of the camera as per the guideline in that Alexa document)
02:40
troy_s
___anton___: Sense?
02:40
comradekingu
is someone talking to me?
02:41
troy_s
comradekingu: I pinged you back from PM to here.
02:42
___anton___
comradekingu: thx a lot for a nice illustration :) these designs are very rough suggestions for discussion, I fully agree with you on slanted adeges
02:42
___anton___
troy_s: aha I see what you mean
02:43
troy_s
___anton___: So the critical distance is from base of camera housing to lens, and of course in line with bottom bolt pattern.
02:43
___anton___
troy_s: I haven't drawn these in my diagrams but I assume that some type of clamps are part of camera body
02:43
___anton___
troy_s: hold on for one more illustration
02:43
troy_s
Most are part of the plate systems now.
02:45
troy_s
___anton___: In fact I struggle to think of a single camera with rod supports attached.
02:45
troy_s
One tickles my memory
02:45
comradekingu
the way i see the whole thing is 3 parts, the main middle part, and the faceplate with macro tube in the front, and the backplate
02:46
comradekingu
you can remove the faceplates to switch sensor or fpga
02:46
comradekingu
at either side
02:46
comradekingu
and they are both mounted with cooling paste onto the main part
02:47
troy_s
There won't be a tube either.
02:48
troy_s
The mount flange will sit flush to it, and the sensor at critical distance beyond that.
02:50
___anton___
troy_s: this is how you put this camera on a standard accessory: http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-tripod.png
02:50
___anton___
you attach a different spacer block to the front of the cam
02:50
___anton___
and it provides you correct distance from lens center to the plate (89mm if I remember correctly what Arri does)
02:50
troy_s
___anton___: Awful CoG
02:51
___anton___
CoG?
02:51
troy_s
Center of gravity
02:51
troy_s
Normally the bolt patterns are directly under the sensor region
02:51
___anton___
well I was assuming a heavy lens in front
02:51
troy_s
Yes, but that method places far too much torque along that fix point
02:51
___anton___
well but you can easily see how that block can have a slightly different shape, right?
02:52
troy_s
You have to remember that these things can get put under large G force.
02:52
___anton___
we can easily place the connection holes where we need them to be
02:52
troy_s
Look at the F65, then the Alexa, and even Aatons Penelope
02:52
troy_s
Or even, god forbid, the R3D.
02:52
troy_s
Or the F55
02:53
troy_s
You will see almost identical placements on all.
02:53
troy_s
For a good reason (with the exception being R3D's whacky experiment of failure design)
02:53
troy_s
(But the point stands)
02:55
troy_s
(Or a 535, 435, Panaflex, P Platinum, the list goes on.)
02:56
troy_s
If the example is compact housing, have a peek at the Arri M.
02:57
troy_s
(Which has a set of unique design issues where the plugs require 90° adapters for use in a head, which they do not supply by default, and the hose ends up bonking into the head's housing)
02:58
___anton___
troy_s: I've just changed my adapter design slightly: http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-tripod2.png
02:59
___anton___
troy_s: the adapter brick now goes a bit further backwards
02:59
troy_s
(The Alexa may actually have fixed rod supports, but it is worth looking at the tolerances built around the chassis portion to see how the rod clearance is built in)
02:59
troy_s
I think that brick is god awful.
02:59
troy_s
Just get the body right.
02:59
troy_s
That brick is a hack.
02:59
troy_s
And a nasty one at that.
02:59
___anton___
hmm.. as it is ugly?
03:00
___anton___
not beautiful? not aesthetically appealing?
03:00
___anton___
or not robust enough?
03:00
___anton___
not providing sturdy enough support?
03:00
troy_s
Just a hack.
03:01
troy_s
No reason to have a block there.
03:01
troy_s
At all.
03:01
troy_s
All of that crap can be nuked, and simply extend the housing down.
03:01
troy_s
Done.
03:02
troy_s
In addition to that
03:02
troy_s
You _cannot_ have any of that extra crapola in front of the plane
03:02
troy_s
Hell, you couldn't even fit a lens on there. :)
03:03
comradekingu
>crapola
03:03
comradekingu
my sides
03:03
troy_s
You have to remember you have remote motors and other accessories that need that precious front-of-plane room
03:03
troy_s
From your flange point forward should be totally clear.
03:04
troy_s
(The flange mount slip ring forward)
03:05
troy_s
Don't worry about balance either, your base mount points are consistent with the existing gear; balance is provided via a sliding dove or such that adjusts variably for lens, gak, etc.
03:05
troy_s
(So distance from bolt pattern holes forward is critical, as is distance from base of body housing to center of lens.)
03:06
pizthewiz
left the channel
03:06
troy_s
Everything back of that is somewhat arbitrary, through-rod cavity notwithstanding.
03:07
comradekingu
__anton__: change the top rectangle on both sides btw
03:08
comradekingu
could just glue a halfpipe onto the bottom of the carry handle if nothing else changes
03:11
troy_s
This is the nightmare you get when you ignore existing gear dimensions:
03:11
___anton___
troy_s: this design was a bit of a rough sketch, also my thinking is usually a little ahead of what I have already drawn
03:11
troy_s
http://provideocoalition.com/images/uploads/FSCIMG_6155.jpg
03:11
troy_s
Yep.
03:11
___anton___
troys_s: this is another variant that I had in mind all along
03:11
___anton___
http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-tripod3.png
03:11
troy_s
Just be aware of the most important design focus point of all: context.
03:11
troy_s
There is a crap ton of existing context that cannot and should not be trumped.
03:12
troy_s
Anyone that dismisses it, probably ought to work through _why_ those contexts exist in the first place. If they do, and the reasoning is solid as to a counterpoint, then by all means try it.
03:12
troy_s
( ___anton___ The block _must_ die. Kill it.)
03:12
troy_s
:)
03:13
___anton___
troy_s: well perhaps there's a reason behind having the block as well?
03:13
troy_s
LOL
03:13
troy_s
And it is?
03:14
___anton___
troy_s: I want to use this camera too, and I'd rather use it handheld or on a light shoulder rig
03:14
troy_s
So you can build a total U around where it should mount in the first place?
03:14
troy_s
So wait
03:14
troy_s
Is an Alexa or F55 or F65 not designed for that?
03:14
troy_s
Or is it specifically designed for that?
03:14
___anton___
well I'm coming from GH3
03:14
troy_s
Well that is your first horrific problem
03:15
___anton___
:)
03:15
troy_s
Ask anyone shooting with a DSLR what the worst case nightmare is for shooting (beyond almost everything including remote head work)
03:15
troy_s
Guaranteed handheld is up there.
03:15
troy_s
That length to the cameras isn't a fluke
03:15
troy_s
It is there to offset the weight for handheld, remote head, and lens weight.
03:16
troy_s
No one is shooting with an 18-55 plastic lens at a whopping 5/6
03:16
troy_s
5.6
03:16
___anton___
... but I might try with 50/1.8
03:17
troy_s
Great example. How about a 1.4 non cine?
03:17
troy_s
Like a 1.2-1.4 50mm or 85?
03:17
___anton___
okay it's getting much heavier
03:17
troy_s
Huge diameter too.
03:17
___anton___
yes
03:17
troy_s
Now think about suckholing to a rental house
03:18
Rebelj12a
Thatâ¦. was a bad time to check the messages, or a good one
03:18
troy_s
And they have a friend with a set of Master Primes. You manage to borrow them.
03:18
troy_s
Now your glass is even bigger.
03:18
troy_s
So again, context.
03:19
Rebelj12a
Remote head work isnt as hard on a canon
03:19
___anton___
..hmm but in that case I take out my top rods from my design and instead insert longer ones - that go backwards. There I have a shoulder pad and behind that a heavy battery to balance
03:19
troy_s
The Penelope (RIP) built up a strong following for its handheld feel. You can see why; squat and longer. That rear weight nicely offsets the front. The Alexa has a similar length.
03:19
troy_s
Rebelj12a: Probably disagree with you. They are too stumpy.
03:20
troy_s
I am sure seb had to have _massive_ tree weights on that Flight Head (?) they took out on the Alpha's demo.
03:20
troy_s
And no one wants to be adding tree weights.
03:20
troy_s
(To that extent)
03:20
___anton___
well it's somewhat hard to make Axiom Beta heavy :)
03:21
___anton___
it's like making Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera heavy
03:21
___anton___
how do you do it?
03:21
___anton___
tie it to a brick?
03:21
troy_s
But a modular housing extension is an option. I will say of course, that it is probably wiser to simply start longer. The Alexa M for example, rents how often?
03:21
troy_s
Well it is a crappy design.
03:21
troy_s
Looks great. Has a touchscreen!!!
03:22
troy_s
But ask Rebelj12a or rexbron
03:22
troy_s
I am sure either will wax lyrical about how the form factor completely screws you shooting.
03:22
troy_s
Have a lens pulling forward for an hour of handheld. Joy!
03:23
troy_s
(Crappy design being the damn BMCC housing of course, not the A M, as it has a very particular usage window)
03:24
Rebelj12a
God
03:24
Rebelj12a
I hate the touchscreen
03:24
troy_s
LMAO
03:24
Rebelj12a
Theyve made improvements which, maykes the BMCC *barely* tolerable
03:24
Rebelj12a
In terms of ui touchscreen.
03:24
troy_s
How about form factor?
03:24
Rebelj12a
Its a box. Fun to throw around, confuse cats with. haha its heavy to be honest
03:24
troy_s
How would you rate the "nice and teeny" body for handheld usage?
03:24
Rebelj12a
Not very
03:25
Rebelj12a
Or at all
03:25
Rebelj12a
Unless your a big burly guy which im not
03:25
Rebelj12a
im gangly what do you want
03:25
Rebelj12a
lol
03:25
troy_s
If you had a pick, would you have made it longer or stumpier?
03:25
troy_s
(And how much handheld have you shot with it? More than 20 hours? 40?)
03:25
Rebelj12a
Longer definitely
03:26
troy_s
___anton___: See my point?
03:26
Rebelj12a
HAH 3 - 4 hours, took it off the tripod once for an event cause i was tired of sitting around.
03:26
troy_s
___anton___: Mocking up housings comes smack dab into the realities of shooting.
03:26
Rebelj12a
Otherwise its shoulder mount.
03:26
Rebelj12a
or Gimbal,
03:27
troy_s
I am willing to wager rexbron has identical views on the housing. I know he was a fan of the Penelope's form for handheld.
03:27
troy_s
The BMCC design is seductive as hell...
03:27
troy_s
For anyone that has never shot a frame.
03:27
troy_s
:)
03:28
Rebelj12a
Also the handlebars BMCC has for it are less than useless I have them dont know why, In case I need to attach it to a zipline or something I dont know.
03:28
troy_s
The side things?
03:28
Rebelj12a
Yeah
03:28
Rebelj12a
too far spaced apart
03:28
Rebelj12a
like a gimbal, without the stabilization
03:28
Rebelj12a
not helpful
03:28
troy_s
That design looked absolutely batshit to me.
03:29
troy_s
I immediately was like... Uh... WTF.
03:30
Rebelj12a
Fun fact I am converting an antique box for holding a very heavy surveyers telescope into a BMCC travel funbox.
03:30
Rebelj12a
Only way ill ever get to⦠you konw, take and shoot
03:31
Rebelj12a
For funsies
03:32
___anton___
troy_s: it's too early for me to give up :)
03:33
___anton___
troy_s: because the design I offered today can actually satisfy your requirements as well
03:33
___anton___
troy_s: http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-tripod4.png
03:33
___anton___
what have I done?
03:33
___anton___
I've taken out the rods completely
03:33
___anton___
instead I've inserted a huge brick of aluminium
03:33
___anton___
instead of rods I've run screws that go directly through front and rear enclosures and into that aluminium
03:33
___anton___
rock solid
03:33
troy_s
Sure. But why crimp the housing room?
03:33
___anton___
HEAVY
03:34
troy_s
Why not extend the front right down!
03:34
troy_s
?
03:34
troy_s
Not an !
03:34
___anton___
hmmm.. but is this last design any worse?
03:34
___anton___
we're running bolts through the front panel into a huge brick of metal
03:34
troy_s
Seriously, have a look at 50 years of camera design. Here is an easily Googleable list.
03:35
___anton___
well but didn't you suggest "modular housing extension"?
03:35
___anton___
this is modular
03:35
troy_s
Arri 435, 535, D20, D21, Alexa
03:35
___anton___
this camera can be small and GH3-ish for those who want it
03:35
troy_s
Panavision Panaflex, Platinum, Genesis
03:35
___anton___
and it can be heavy and strong for those who need that
03:35
troy_s
Sony Genesis (as above), F35, F65, F55
03:36
troy_s
Who the _fsck_ wants a small G3?
03:36
troy_s
Find me one cinema shooter (see subject of this channel)
03:36
___anton___
those same people who buy bmpcc?
03:36
troy_s
And find me one person that bought the BMCC that loves the form factor.
03:36
troy_s
I dare you.
03:37
troy_s
Ask Rebelj12a he has one. Ask rexbron he has two or three.
03:37
Rebelj12a
Hence they came out with the URSA which btw im totally not sold on.
03:37
troy_s
And ask anyone that has bought one and then learned to shoot on one.
03:37
troy_s
Does the Ursa do off speed?
03:37
___anton___
well suppose I'm travelling on foot and have to carry all my gear
03:37
___anton___
I'd rather have a lighter cam then
03:38
___anton___
I'd rather have a smaller bag too
03:38
___anton___
suppose I want some home video?
03:38
troy_s
Your camera is what... 10% of your gak.
03:39
troy_s
Then you aren't making cinema really.
03:39
___anton___
I am not
03:39
troy_s
Suppose someone wants to use it for veterinarian research in dog mouths.
03:39
___anton___
:)
03:40
troy_s
I mean it is a lovely and seductive bit of total crap to say "It can be for everyone!!11!!!"
03:40
troy_s
But man... I have watched soooo many projects die with that absolutely worthless ideal.
03:40
troy_s
Just make it work for your primary audience. Fsck the rest.
03:40
Rebelj12a
Hey i saw a dentist office article that they were using it.
03:41
___anton___
so that basically it comes down to: can my needs as a home video shooter be met without sacrificing yours
03:41
___anton___
this design is my best shot at trying to prove that yes it can
03:41
troy_s
I could care less about mine. Who is the audience?
03:42
troy_s
Work backwards. Every design decision exists on at least a 3D world axis system and pulls against other decisions.
03:42
___anton___
I'm trying to make it broad. I'm trying to include all those who used to be shooting on DSLR up till now plus the lower end of cinema shooters
03:42
troy_s
I want to carry six sheets of plywood, Rebelj12a wants a car seat, you want to race in the F1.
03:42
troy_s
Let's meet everyone's goals in the middle, shall we?
03:43
troy_s
Again, find your damn primary audience, figure out the needs, and work backwards. Fsck everything else.
03:43
Rebelj12a
Hey i like plywood
03:43
troy_s
OK... Plywood and a car seat.
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03:43
troy_s
Well now we need two car seats because we will both be driving with our wood.
03:43
Rebelj12a
Again⦠with the untimely entrances XD
03:44
troy_s
Twelve sheets of plywood, two car seats, F1 racing, oh and Bob just showed up... He wants it green so make it electric.
03:45
___anton___
troy_s: but then auto makers successfully produce both saloon and estate cars on the same platform
03:45
___anton___
troy_s: I used to drive Subary Legacy estate. I LOVED IT
03:45
___anton___
troy_s: LOTS of space for cargo
03:45
Rebelj12a
*cough* auto markets plan cars 5-15 years in advance.
03:45
Rebelj12a
And not all are successful⦠*cough* saturn
03:46
___anton___
mine is now 20 years old and I would still drive it if I was still in Moscow
03:46
Rebelj12a
However if you do notice the auto manufacturing industry is suffering as well
03:46
Rebelj12a
same as the Camera and electronics industry
03:46
Rebelj12a
more recalls, more issues. More technology crammed into them causing more problems
03:47
Rebelj12a
Trying to appeal to too many markets.
03:47
___anton___
so Rebelj12a, what's your take? would you take this to shoot? http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov0.2-tripod4.png
03:47
troy_s
___anton___: You can have your Aztec.
03:47
troy_s
"No but wait... It is also A TENT!!!!111!!!"
03:48
Rebelj12a
We added this ton of electronics on it so we gotta lighten the pricing and the load somewhere else. I.e. plastic, lightweight frames,
03:48
Rebelj12a
How does that fit into the larger item?
03:48
Rebelj12a
ER enclosure
03:56
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03:57
___anton___
troy_s: this was indeed my best shot at designing what I think would be a suitable enclosure for Beta. I can use it myself, but you can take off all my amateur cruft, remove the rods and screw it to a solid base. You have front and rear enclosure made of metal with holes in them. You can screw them to whatever you like. Of course the idea was that the project would figure out what you like and would offer that as an
03:57
___anton___
option. For an experimental camera I don't think this can be bad - being able to take off one base and put on another.
03:57
___anton___
But then this may indeed not work for people from cinema industry, I don't know
03:58
___anton___
off for short nap
03:58
___anton___
left the channel
04:04
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04:06
__anton__
Btw another usecase for a smaller lighter enclosure: small gibmal or a railcar
04:07
troy_s
__anton__: Worth a read https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-February/msg00174.html
04:08
troy_s
Havoc wrote Metacity and he has some wonderful insight there (in particular the part about alienating.)
04:12
Rebelj12a
In all honestly with the parts and how its made anyone should be able to 3d print their own enclosure or cnc etc
04:13
__anton__
troy_s: yes that is indeed very insightful. Btw how do you perceive apertus? Who are you helping make the cam fit for?
04:14
troy_s
I am doing very little except for offering what little I am aware of when I can find time.
04:14
troy_s
I can help more on the profiling color side.
04:15
troy_s
And a little on hardware.
04:15
troy_s
(From a camera vantage)
04:15
troy_s
But bugger all in the stuff some of the peeps around here are big brained at such as electronics and other deep dark alchemy.
04:16
__anton__
And i think i am privileged to benefit from you knowledge. I really appreciate the opportunity to learn.
04:17
troy_s
Blah.
04:17
__anton__
Howevere re the project who do you think is the audience?
04:17
troy_s
Just another donkey in a boat.
04:17
troy_s
I see "open source cinema" in the topic.
04:17
troy_s
It is what drew me (and a few others) here.
04:18
troy_s
I have no interest in non-cinema usage. Image making is where it begins and ends for me.
04:19
Rebelj12a
I want to see it succeed and make a big market presence and shake things up I want it to appeal to everyone without being a crapshoot and also being a testbed for introductory shooters to be able to learn how to do it properly and what makes a good camera
04:19
Rebelj12a
Plus a good camera with alot of customization
04:19
Rebelj12a
cause I like that
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04:20
troy_s
It won't make a big market presence without razor thin vision.
04:21
troy_s
I remember reading a quote from my school years which was something like "if you want to appeal to widen your appeal, narrow your focus."
04:21
troy_s
A goofy bit of sentiment, but a great bit of insight at the same time.
04:23
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04:25
troy_s
And... Night.
04:26
Rebelj12a
night
04:26
__anton__
troy_s: ditto
04:48
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left the channel
04:48
intracube
feels he just killed the convo
04:49
intracube
and looking at the logs, interesting discussion too :)
05:04
Rebelj12a
Yes well troy is rather outspoken but he knows his stuff when it comes down to it.
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05:16
intracube
Rebelj12a: he does indeed
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07:36
lab-bot
philippej closed T129: Maniphest default page as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T129
07:54
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
07:54
Bertl
morning folks!
08:13
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09:02
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09:09
__anton__
Bertl: morning! Looks like I stirred a bit of a discussion at night with this http://octoray.co.uk/axiom/tambov/tambov02.html
09:09
__anton__
Sturdy composable sealable
09:10
__anton__
Intetestingly enough Troy remained unconvinced even though I listened to him very carefully before starting my work on this
09:11
__anton__
I still think that on basis of this designs are possible which would satisfy his requirements quite fully
09:16
Bertl
well, it's a large connector
09:16
Bertl
(usually designed for backplanes)
09:20
Bertl
but an interesting design
09:22
Bertl
how do you plan to prevent the heat from transferring through the rods?
09:23
Bertl
(or the connection between both parts, i.e. the backplane_
09:34
__anton__
Bertl: I planned to use fiberglass rods
09:36
__anton__
Re heat transfer through top panel - I dont have a definitive plan yet. Perhaps some plastic that would prevent metal of top pamel from coming in contact with metal of the rear enclosure
09:42
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10:00
__anton__
Bertl: I am not sure of my further actions. I could potentially try to get this implemented in metal - get some help producing proper drafts etc The lens mount would be the biggest prob. But I definitely wont be able to produce special versions of interface and beta boards. So if ever there is general interest to work in this direction pls let me know. I fully understand that design oardof the normal versions of these
10:00
__anton__
board occupies you 120%
10:04
Bertl
we will definitely have to prioritize the 'normal' design to get something working, but if there is enough interest, I don't see why we shouldn't help with the boards
10:04
Bertl
note that as everything is FOSS/OH, you can always adapt them yourself
10:05
__anton__
There are only so many hours in a day :(
10:05
Bertl
yes, we know!
10:07
__anton__
Btw what is your intuition - if I kept pushing in this direction, does a flex pcb look more promising or do the gigantic backplane connectors look like a safer bet?
10:08
Bertl
both should work, but they'll have different properties of course
10:08
Bertl
the planned connectors have two rows at a 0.5mm spacing
10:09
Bertl
you could for example, translate that to two shielded flex PCB layers with the same spacing
10:09
Bertl
giving you a total of 4 shielded layers to connect the interface board with the beta board
10:10
Bertl
having them on both sides would eliminate any length differences
10:21
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
10:22
__anton__
Bertl: that would be nice as "stock" pcb-s could potentially be used. However how narrow could we make this flexi pcb?
10:24
Bertl
really depends on the manufacturer
10:24
Bertl
tthey would have to be as wide as the connectors on the end
10:25
Bertl
but for the actual connection, they could be as small as the manufacturer can produce with a given impedance
10:53
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10:59
__anton__
It's probably a lot cheaper and simpler to clip fpcb in special fpcb connectors than to solder mezaninne connectors onto fpcb?
11:06
Bertl
not necessarily
11:08
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11:10
__anton__
Also more compact it seems
11:22
se6astian
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11:34
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11:50
Bertl
hey ItsYouLenny!
11:54
ItsMeLenny
hey ItsNotBert1ButActuallyBertl
11:54
ItsMeLenny
how are you
11:54
Bertl
fine, thanks! and you?
11:54
ItsMeLenny
im not bad, a little tired
11:54
ItsMeLenny
off to beddybyes soon
11:55
Bertl
I see, well, you need a good sleep to be your best :)
11:55
ItsMeLenny
and i need a good bed to be in sleep
11:56
Bertl
hope you have one
11:56
ItsMeLenny
i dont :P
11:56
ItsMeLenny
been on the same bed for ~20 years
11:58
ItsMeLenny
i still get a free axiom for being good looking right?
12:00
Bertl
you're still doing this great campaign where you promote the axiom with your good looks, right?
12:02
ItsMeLenny
i am, i am having my nose remodelled into the shape of an axiom
12:02
Bertl
ah, great! don't forget to upload a picture!
12:02
ItsMeLenny
i cant take one til i get my free axiom
12:03
Bertl
damn! a catch 22
12:11
ItsMeLenny
lol
12:11
ItsMeLenny
chicken egg
12:17
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se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
13:19
se6astian
good afternoon
13:30
davidak
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13:43
lab-bot
philippej created T132: Rename this project to "Content & Documentation" to actually use it as our main list of tasks related to content & documentation. http://lab.apertus.org/T132
13:53
lab-bot
philippej closed T111: Post "job offers" somewhere, for people willing to help (benevolent) as "Wontfix". http://lab.apertus.org/T111
14:02
lab-bot
sebastian closed T132: Rename this project to "Content & Documentation" to actually use it as our main list of tasks related to content & documentation as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T132
14:37
Bertl
off for now .. bbs
14:37
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
14:56
lab-bot
philippej created T133: Documenting the discussion about sliders. http://lab.apertus.org/T133
14:59
philippej
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15:01
lab-bot
sebastian closed T41: Send crowd funding backer FAQ article to backers as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T41
15:08
lab-bot
philippej created T134: Documenting the color blend modes discussion. http://lab.apertus.org/T134
15:08
davidak
is there a ticket or any ideas how to implement the "4K RAW PC recording option"?
15:10
se6astian
no ticket/task yet, bertl has the idea/implementation concept though
15:10
philippej
davidak, no ticket
15:10
philippej
The content & documentation workboard welcomes everyone : http://lab.apertus.org/tag/content_documentation/board/
15:13
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl
15:13
Bertl
back now ..
15:24
davidak
will it work over Gigabit-Ethernet and will you provide capture software?
15:25
davidak
"4K RAW PC recording option"?
15:26
Bertl
no, gigabit ethernet is way to slow for transferring 4k raw in realtime
15:26
davidak
ok, what was the idea for this?
15:26
Bertl
there is no ticket yet, we are currently investigating options in this regard
15:27
Bertl
in the simplest solution, it will be a 3 channel hdmi recording solution based on PC hardware
15:27
Bertl
s/solution/case/
15:28
Bertl
if we manage to get a more sophisticated soltuion working, it will be a PC specific interface card which allows to stream directly from the camera
15:29
davidak
would you build that card or are there any on the market?
15:29
Bertl
we haven't found a suitable card for the one-card solution yet, so if we go this route we will develop one
15:29
davidak
there are SDI cards from multiple vendors
15:30
davidak
whould that be an option?
15:30
Bertl
there are also HDMI recording cards from multiple vendors
15:30
Bertl
so those are an option for the 3 HDMI solution
15:30
Bertl
but they won't work with non HDMI protocols
15:31
Bertl
SDI is an option as well, but requires additional soft- and hardware on the camera side
15:31
davidak
but will they support to add the frames together or is that a software thing?
15:31
Bertl
that is basically software
15:31
davidak
ok
15:32
davidak
could you put that information in a ticket?
15:32
davidak
i have no access right now
15:33
Bertl
I'm currently quite busy, but maybe somebody else here can do that right now
15:33
Bertl
otherwise, please keep a mental note and add it later
15:33
lab-bot
philippej closed T62: drupal roles/setup proposal for giving new users a way to help with website authoring as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T62
15:33
davidak
or i do it later when i am at home
15:34
Bertl
thanks
15:36
philippej
davidak, do yo uhave an account on drupal.org?
15:36
davidak
no
15:36
philippej
sorry, on apertus.org
15:36
davidak
yes
15:36
philippej
what is your username?
15:36
davidak
only on lab.
15:36
davidak
davidak ;)
15:37
philippej
if you create a user account on apertus.org, I can make you writer, so you can test the system and fix the two images link broken you reported
15:37
philippej
in T130
15:37
lab-bot
T130: Images not loaded - http://lab.apertus.org/T130
15:37
davidak
thanks, will register right now
15:38
lab-bot
philippej closed T107: drupal module to allow searching users as "Resolved". http://lab.apertus.org/T107
15:40
davidak
done
15:41
philippej
davidak, try now, you should be able to edit the page
15:43
philippej
more accurately : suggest modification of any page
15:43
davidak
ok
15:44
davidak
how to edit a page?
15:45
philippej
just go to it's url then there should be an edit tab
15:46
davidak
i see that on my profile page
15:46
davidak
but not on other pages
15:47
davidak
is there a backend?
15:47
philippej
if you go here : https://apertus.org/axiom-beta
15:47
philippej
you might need to hit reload
15:48
philippej
there is a cache sometimes it shows you the anonymous page
15:48
davidak
Home/Cameras
15:48
davidak
AXIOM Beta
15:48
davidak
Submitted by Sebastian on Mon, 04/28/2014 - 22:10
15:48
davidak
Image
15:48
philippej
if all goes well you should also have a top bar
15:48
davidak
no
15:48
philippej
hard refresh ? shift + f5 ?
15:48
davidak
maybe i have to logout and login again?
15:49
philippej
to see if you ar elogged, go to https://apertus.org/user
15:49
davidak
oh, im not logged in anymore...
15:49
philippej
might be a problem of www. vs non www.
15:50
davidak
https://apertus.org/axiom-beta
15:50
davidak
logged in again and no edit tab
15:50
davidak
hmm
15:50
philippej
I have to go, will look for it asap
15:51
davidak
thanks
15:51
davidak
i am at home in 1 hour
15:51
davidak
than i have some time
15:51
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comradekingu
axiom beta featured on the indiegogo email newsletter
18:08
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Rebelj12a
Anton you there?
18:44
Rebelj12a
ah hes gone
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18:47
Rebelj12a
baaazinga
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se6astian
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19:35
PhilCee
good eve all..
19:46
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se6astian
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19:56
lab-bot
davidak created T136: 4K RAW PC recording. http://lab.apertus.org/T136
19:56
davidak1
more ideas are welcome :)
20:03
__anton__
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__anton__
Rebelj12a: hi mate, whazzup?
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derWalter
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PhilCee
changed nick to: philcee_away
20:52
davidak1
is there a way to group tickets or relate to each other in phabricator?
21:02
davidak1
i also want a "marketing" project, maybe with a nicer name
21:02
davidak1
and create a bunch of SEO tickets that should relate to each other
21:04
lab-bot
davidak created T137: Website SEO: Image alt attributes. http://lab.apertus.org/T137
21:17
davidak1
promotion is a better word. i don't like marketing as it's often imply a much better product than it is
21:23
Bertl
what's the idea of the marketing/promotion project?
21:26
davidak1
to group tasks like making the project more visible (SEO, better text on website), campaigns, concept for blog posts, create advertising materials ...
21:26
Bertl
what about "Public Relations" then?
21:26
davidak1
this would fit into it http://lab.apertus.org/T40
21:26
davidak1
yes, that is good
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davidak1
good night
22:38
Bertl
night!
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comradekingu
davidak: propoganda effort?