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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2018/05/04

Timezone: UTC


01:21
rton
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01:30
Bertl_oO
off for another quick nap ...
01:30
Bertl_oO
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
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seaman
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supragya
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supragya
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05:21
Bertl_zZ
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05:21
Bertl_oO
morning folks!
07:18
se6astian|away
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rton
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se6astian
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se6astian|away
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indraneel
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ArunM
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seaman
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se6astian
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aombk3
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14:43
comradekingu
So i told this environmental agency about the apertus merits in terms of ethical production and sourcing. However, the current landing page says nothing about that, so it can't be featured. Is this information displayed anywhere?
15:04
BAndiT1983|away
changed nick to: BAndiT1983
15:07
BAndiT1983
comradekingu -> https://www.apertus.org/opensource -> "Professional Manufacturing"
15:14
comradekingu
BAndiT1983: That doesnt actually pin down anything
15:15
BAndiT1983
"what we care about" does it for me
15:16
comradekingu
It is just intent
15:16
comradekingu
It doesnt say anything about conflict materials, regulations, contracts, programs, nothing
15:17
comradekingu
Apple "cares" about this stuff too
15:17
comradekingu
It just strikes me as unprofessional
15:19
BAndiT1983
?
15:21
comradekingu
https://www.apertus.org/opensource to say it as honestly as possible, is just not cutting mustard
15:39
supragya
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15:39
supragya
hi BAndiT1983
15:44
BAndiT1983
hi supragya
15:44
BAndiT1983
how is it going?
15:45
supragya
quite good!
15:45
supragya
have you read the long email?
15:45
BAndiT1983
of course
15:46
BAndiT1983
monitoring IRC, lab and my mails through the day
15:48
supragya
okay.. you had a few question?
15:49
supragya
regarding MXF
15:49
BAndiT1983
it was mostly about MXF-like structure, still not totally sure that we can accomplish whole processing in the camera
15:49
supragya
camera doesn't really need to make those inside... given the document
15:49
BAndiT1983
wrote already yesterday about separate data files (video and meta data) or a stream with embedded meta data
15:50
BAndiT1983
just want to ensure some things, as the discussions turn always to advanced formats, but the focus should be on the required data
15:50
BAndiT1983
no problem here with converting in post, to reduce the strain on the camera
15:51
supragya
I PM'ed you a link
15:51
supragya
can you have a document open aside...
15:51
BAndiT1983
i know the specs, at least to some level
15:51
BAndiT1983
opened it
15:53
supragya
MXF should not be hard.. given it is jst a KLV format storage
15:54
supragya
if we can get the raw12 out
15:54
BAndiT1983
it doesn't answer my point, what we should get from the camera and in which format
15:54
supragya
as stream maybe... then a constant Length can be appended with appropriate key before flushing to disk
15:55
BAndiT1983
there are many formats out there, but first we need the data as some package which comes from the camera
15:55
supragya
A good way of doing is more of MLV way, have to say this
15:56
supragya
(initial metadata)-(data)-(data)-(mode change meta)-(data)-(data) etc
15:56
BAndiT1983
MLV was developed for such cases, as some parts of canon EOS are unknown and others are processed by their camera MCU
15:56
supragya
in anycase... I would recomment this data not to be kept as is... and should be converted to anything like XDNG before it hits post
15:57
supragya
*CDNG
15:57
BAndiT1983
there are a lot of things which can be calculated from meta data and image data, so we should grab as more as possible for later processing
15:57
BAndiT1983
of course it will be converted, but first we need the data in some format which allows hi-speed output
15:57
supragya
[as more as possible for later processing] -> this was one of the issues
15:57
supragya
since a GPS module would make sense for example
15:57
supragya
but MLV does not have that
15:57
BAndiT1983
that's why my example was focussed on ARRIRAW, we need something similar, they also use frame server for preview, if i remember correctly
15:58
BAndiT1983
why do you care about GPS currently?
15:58
supragya
my issue is that then we would have to make new blocks for this
15:58
BAndiT1983
we could embed custom tags or re-use existing ones
15:58
BAndiT1983
and what is the problem with that? if we convert it afterwards in right format for CDNG or MXF etc., then there is not much issue
15:59
supragya
[why do you care about GPS] -> more of other things... such as lens info (which is currently under discussion in MLV)
15:59
BAndiT1983
the question is, if we just write such things into some extra file or not
15:59
supragya
[and what is the problem with that? if we convert it afterwards in right format for CDNG or MXF etc., then there is not much issue] -> just wanted to know if this was on table, or we were to ship MLV directly to post
15:59
BAndiT1983
maybe it's too much to embed it everytime, so we can use json for example and then merge
16:00
BAndiT1983
i would go for conversion, because current hardware would struggle a bit with advanced stuff
16:00
supragya
[so we can use json for example and then merge] _. a custom header in MLV to hold JSON?
16:00
BAndiT1983
afterwards we can re-use the modules on the camera
16:01
BAndiT1983
and if we don't use MLV, but just a stream with frame markers?
16:01
supragya
a good direction to look into
16:01
BAndiT1983
hope that g3gg0 will come online today, as he is the primary mentor ;)
16:01
supragya
but doesn't that lead to whole plethora of new problem why we create specs like MLV in first place?
16:02
supragya
take for example stereoscopic data
16:02
BAndiT1983
stereoscopic data would include 2 streams or one with alternating sensor data
16:03
supragya
alternating sensor data _> s1,s2,s1,s2 (as this)?
16:04
BAndiT1983
yep
16:04
supragya
a simplistic model such as this... would have to always be extended for new requirements... let's say if we export darkframes for meta
16:05
BAndiT1983
i would go with XMP file, which would be merged with video stream later to MXF, CDNG etc.
16:05
supragya
that would mean we have two channels for output?
16:05
supragya
one for data, other for things other than data?
16:05
BAndiT1983
yep, fast one for video data and slower one for meta
16:06
BAndiT1983
just ideas, as direct output would be nice, but also requires a lot of testing in-camera
16:07
supragya
then data+marker is good thing
16:07
supragya
on fast lane
16:07
supragya
maybe we can throw in a serial number between the data (such as an int or long)
16:08
supragya
this would allow to sync packets between the two comm channels
16:08
BAndiT1983
some sort of id is necessary, also as some sort of hash in case of failure
16:09
supragya
the two channels as in :[https://trello.com/c/aX7KJihl/24-the-planned-usb3-recording-pathway] ?
16:09
BAndiT1983
yep
16:10
BAndiT1983
unordered frames maybe, so the output doesn't lag
16:10
supragya
[unordered frames maybe] -> serial numbers just for that too
16:11
supragya
these serial numbers can be quite cyclic, however should be distinguishable
16:11
BAndiT1983
that's the idea
16:11
BAndiT1983
or you can read the order out of the XMP meta data
16:12
BAndiT1983
i suppose, that this one should be ordered, but frame data sorted afterwards in post
16:12
BAndiT1983
preview with frame server would also be possible, don't see any issues there too
16:12
supragya
[read the order out of the XMP meta data] -> how are you imagining this?
16:13
BAndiT1983
data is written in the right order of frames, with id/hash, frames get same id, but related to them
16:13
BAndiT1983
XMP data would be ordered, so entry one would correspond to frame 1, which could be frame 3 in the stream
16:14
supragya
and mapping operation be done based on hash or ID?
16:14
BAndiT1983
yes
16:15
BAndiT1983
don't think, that they will be off by far in the stream, also it's not the final word, that any disorder would be there, just throwing some considerations from MLV format
16:15
supragya
in scene we are looking at... why is MLV there?
16:16
supragya
isn't (data/id stream) + (XMF) the idea now?
16:17
supragya
does MLV comes up in the fast lane in this model? or XMF?
16:19
BAndiT1983
XMP can be transferred over ethernet, as it can be written more slowly, and MLV was just an example for frame disorder
16:20
BAndiT1983
video data -> fast output, meta data/XMP -> slower output
16:22
supragya
ARRI foramt specification are available? I would like to look at it
16:22
supragya
ARRI metadata white paper?
16:22
BAndiT1983
don't think so
16:23
BAndiT1983
ArriRaw is a raw codec similar to CinemaDNG that contains unaltered Bayer sensor information, the data stream from the camera can be recorded via T-link with certified recorders like those from Codex Digital or Cineflow.
16:24
supragya
the format is proprietary?
16:24
supragya
ah yes, you said it was
16:24
BAndiT1983
file:///C:/Users/Andi/Downloads/ARRI_Metadata_White_Paper_ALEXA_SXT_SUP1.0_ALEXA_Mini_AMIRA_SUP4.0_ALEXA65_SUP1.1.pdf
16:24
BAndiT1983
ah sorry, wrong link
16:25
supragya
:) XD
16:25
BAndiT1983
http://www.arri.com/?eID=registration&file_uid=17128
16:25
supragya
I would fly to get hold of your computer now BAndiT1983 ? :) [file:///C:/Users/Andi...]?
16:26
supragya
that is the white paper
16:26
BAndiT1983
don't know if there is open info or just an overview
16:29
supragya
more of an overview... list of tags as such..
16:29
supragya
not the way they record it...
16:34
BAndiT1983
but maybe some ideas for required meta data
16:34
BAndiT1983
but wiki mentions some tool which can read the tags from ARRIRAW
16:41
supragya
[ some ideas for required meta data] -> as in what has to be collected?
16:41
BAndiT1983
yes
16:42
supragya
tiff tags give quite extensive view on that...
16:45
supragya
CDNG what has to be collected: pg24, how MXF is (FWIW): pg14, still would look into ARRIRAW, but basic tags would be more or less the same
16:46
supragya
Changes occur in maybe color data representation etc... only (which is not the metadata in focus now)
16:46
BAndiT1983
ARRIRAW seems to be proprietary, other google links sugest that too
16:47
BAndiT1983
*suggest
16:48
supragya
Image Orientation _> maybe this: Bertl once told me that data could be mirrored
16:49
supragya
The sensor can mirror the image vertically. This may lead to rearrangement of rows (first row becoming the last row and so on). However, this does not change the column order inside the rows
16:51
BAndiT1983
any advantage or purpose?
16:51
supragya
no. It just does... maybe Bertl_oO may explain this more
16:51
supragya
Moreover, some way to encode if it was an electronic shutter or physical shutter (so we have both in camera)?
16:52
BAndiT1983
to be honest, haven'T dived that deep into that area
16:53
supragya
maybe also, ways to encode external systems: remote shutter / WiFi module / Flash system
16:55
BAndiT1983
that's the gsoc task ;)
16:56
supragya
:) in any case... an extensibel XMF should do fine in that case
16:56
supragya
*extensible
16:57
supragya
BAndiT1983: can we three have a meeting on Sunday... ?
16:58
BAndiT1983
think so, at which time, as on saturday here is the night of museums, so will be out till late at night
16:58
supragya
I am home... please decide a time that suits you
16:59
BAndiT1983
anything after 12
17:00
supragya
[anything after 12] -> timezone +1 UTC?
17:01
BAndiT1983
yep, berlin time
17:01
BAndiT1983
ah, it's utc +2
17:03
supragya
How about Sun, May 6, 2018 [18:00 UTC +2 Berlin] / [21:30 UTC +5:30 India] ?
17:04
BAndiT1983
if it's not too late for you, then ok
17:05
supragya
Good time for everyone, I can push back if you want to enjoy your evening
17:06
BAndiT1983
no need to, as it's usual time when i do some stuff for apertus on sunday
17:06
supragya
I feel it is okay for everyone then!
17:06
supragya
I will inform g3gg0
17:08
BAndiT1983
very good
17:13
supragya
i would be off for now.. have a great day
17:16
BAndiT1983
ok, see you, you too
17:18
supragya
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seaman
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18:39
illwieckz
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illwieckz
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seaman
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19:38
Bertl_oO
off to bed now ... have a good one!
19:38
Bertl_oO
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19:54
g3gg0
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19:54
BAndiT1983
changed nick to: BAndiT1983|away
19:54
g3gg0
hi
19:55
se6astian|away
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21:18
intrac
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BAndiT1983|away
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RexOrCine|away
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22:27
se6astian
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BAndiT1983
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