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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2016/05/04

Timezone: UTC


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Bertl_zZ
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04:02
Bertl
morning folks!
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10:13
RexO
Greets.
10:13
stjepan
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10:14
stjepan
back in da house
10:14
stjepan
hust
10:14
Bertl
wb
10:30
stjepan
wie viel kostet derzeit eine axiom beta?^^
10:31
Spirit532
they don't speak german
10:31
Spirit532
or do they?
10:31
stjepan
ups sry
10:31
Spirit532
either way this is an english channel
10:31
stjepan
how much does a axiom cost at the moment?
10:32
stjepan
and what will the price be after release
10:38
Bertl
if you build it yourself, the components are about 2300 EUR
10:38
Bertl
where the sensor is the most expensive part
10:38
Bertl
if you contribute to development with 800 EUR, you get a voucher, which will give you one assembled Beta at cost
10:39
stjepan
o.ö
10:39
stjepan
so cheap? Ã.ó
10:39
Bertl
we will sell the assembled Beta later (end of the year) for about 5700 EUR
10:39
Spirit532
5700EUR?
10:39
Spirit532
that is a lot
10:39
Spirit532
wouldn't the price go DOWN with quantity?
10:40
Bertl
probably, but we don't expect large quantities at the moment
10:40
stjepan
5700 is something else than 2300 unassembled....
10:40
Spirit532
by unassembled they mean completely bare
10:40
Spirit532
baggies of componentry and boards
10:40
Bertl
or about 3000 EUR assembled if you contribute to development
10:41
stjepan
unassembled means you have to build it? but you dont have to buy anything else?
10:41
Spirit532
yeah, but you need to build it completely from scratch
10:41
Spirit532
aside from the microzed
10:41
stjepan
is that hard for a non-technician?
10:41
Spirit532
very
10:42
Spirit532
you need at least a reflow oven, basic SMD soldering station
10:42
stjepan
i think a hack club should have that?
10:42
stjepan
like in germany
10:42
Spirit532
if you don't have ANY experience, you won't be able to do it
10:42
Spirit532
Bertl, what's the smallest footprint on the boards?
10:43
Bertl
reflow oven is advised but not strictly required
10:43
Bertl
the smallest parts are 0201, but they are currently not populated
10:43
Spirit532
and the populated ones?
10:43
Bertl
so you can get away with 0402 as smallest feature
10:44
Spirit532
yeah, someone with no experience doing SMD work will never accomplish that without either trashing a few boards or practicing a LOT
10:44
Spirit532
0805 is tedious to do on a larger scale, let alone 0402
10:44
Bertl
yes, if you have no experience soldering SMD, you should find somebody who does, or start practicing
10:45
stjepan
are ccc-members who are not technician nerds? :D
10:45
stjepan
are there*
10:45
Bertl
not necessarily, but nerds do not need to be technicians
10:46
stjepan
don't understand
10:46
Bertl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd
10:46
stjepan
ah das meinst du
10:46
stjepan
intensive interessenbeschäfitigung ok
10:49
Spirit532
apertus has a slightly higher-end audience in mind
10:49
Spirit532
reclaim control of your craft & all
10:49
Spirit532
filmmakers
10:49
Spirit532
I'm leaning more towards really low-end, cheap stuff
10:51
Spirit532
but my project is only at the very beginning so far, nothing is concrete and no parts are purchased
10:52
stjepan
i want high end products :D
10:52
stjepan
i want beautiful image
10:52
Spirit532
my images will be beautiful
10:52
Spirit532
but FHD, not 4K
10:53
stjepan
dont need 4k
10:53
Spirit532
but with the added benefit of being able to shoot slightly lower quality, but still FHD, at 1000fps
10:53
stjepan
the biggest problem is still how to get actors without paying them
10:53
Spirit532
lol
10:53
Spirit532
not for me
10:53
Spirit532
I only develop hardware
10:53
stjepan
o0
10:53
Spirit532
don't care about actors
10:53
Bertl
stjepan: for sure you have some friends, no?
10:53
stjepan
i am interested in real movies :P not boring slowmo
10:54
stjepan
no Bertl . i am a loner
10:54
stjepan
<-<
10:54
stjepan
suresly now
10:54
stjepan
seriously*
10:54
Bertl
then I suggest to start talking to people in the park
10:54
stjepan
and if i would have friends, i could only make movies where the characters look naive and not professional. like for a comedy.
10:54
Bertl
some of them might want to pursue a carrier in acting
10:55
stjepan
asking in a park... i am not the best social pro
10:55
stjepan
i live in the internet world only :D
10:56
Bertl
then you probably should forget about the camera part and focus on rendered movies
10:56
Bertl
for that, you do not need to be social and you definitely do not need actors :)
10:58
stjepan
still not possible. you can't make a cgi movie/webseries/whatever with a one men band... not fast enough to produce weekly medium
10:58
stjepan
and i still love real life films
10:58
stjepan
ill see :P
10:59
stjepan
if y our cam is better than bmcs then i ll buy it
10:59
Spirit532
it is
10:59
Spirit532
will be anyway
10:59
Spirit532
it's not a user-friendly thing right now
10:59
stjepan
you axiom fan boy haha
10:59
stjepan
is there a very dark raw record i can see ?
11:00
Spirit532
ask se6astian
11:00
stjepan
wanna see its low light skills
11:00
stjepan
he again..
11:00
Spirit532
what? I don't have a camera of my own
11:00
stjepan
but Bertl has
11:00
Spirit532
Bertl works with se6astian
11:00
stjepan
and he recorded so much, he said
11:01
stjepan
ah. oh
11:01
Bertl
yes, se6astian has recorded an awful lot, and most of it is available somewhere
11:01
Bertl
so simply contact him and he will find some footage for you
11:02
Bertl
please note that RAW on the AXIOM is really raw
11:02
Spirit532
direct sensor output
11:02
Bertl
i.e. not what you usually get from proprietary cameras
11:02
Spirit532
no processing
11:02
Spirit532
do you remove FPN yet?
11:02
stjepan
like raw from arri or red or a gh4?
11:02
Bertl
Spirit532: it can be removed if configured, i.e. the camera does it on the fly if you load the appropriate tables
11:03
Bertl
stjepan: yep, those are not really raw
11:03
stjepan
o0
11:03
Spirit532
raw from production cameras is very far from raw
11:03
stjepan
there is a reason why it is not fully raw :) perhaps a goodish reason? :>
11:03
Spirit532
yes...?
11:03
Spirit532
raw images from ANY sensor look absolutely terrible
11:03
stjepan
to make it easier?
11:04
stjepan
i love the flat look from raw files oo
11:04
stjepan
looks like a zombie movie
11:04
Spirit532
those aren't really raw
11:06
stjepan
hm
11:07
stjepan
can i have a link to a page which shows me more?
11:07
Spirit532
no such page
11:07
Bertl
about how non-raw raw is?
11:07
Spirit532
but raw from the production cameras is just uncompressed, but processed video
11:07
Spirit532
removing fixed-pattern noise, etc
11:08
Bertl
dead pixels, linearization, often even debayering
11:09
Bertl
the only difference to a 'processed' image is that it doesn't have the compression artefacts
11:09
stjepan
technical theorie is .... bbad ^^
11:10
stjepan
i have no idea what youre talking about
11:10
stjepan
ill wait till sebastians arrival
11:11
Bertl
think of it like selling a heavily photoshopped image as 'the original' :)
11:11
stjepan
dont understand, still
11:11
Spirit532
production camera raw isn't raw
11:12
Spirit532
real raw looks awful
11:12
Spirit532
that's all you need to know
11:13
stjepan
i know that it doesntl ook awful
11:13
stjepan
and few million others too
11:14
stjepan
perhaps billins oO
11:23
Spirit532
oh it does
11:23
Spirit532
you haven't seen real raw
11:23
stjepan
show? :D
11:25
Spirit532
ask se6astian
11:25
Bertl
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-alpha-first-images
11:25
Spirit532
and there's that
11:25
Bertl
here you have the first raw image we acquired (a long time ago :)
11:26
stjepan
why isnt the site then updated with current footages? ;)
11:26
Bertl
it is, you just have to browse through
11:27
stjepan
sorry, but the site isn't user friendly or? i have problems to get through it
11:27
Bertl
you can get some raw data here, if you don't care what you find
11:27
Bertl
ftp://ftp.apertus.org/
11:28
Bertl
specifically here: ftp://ftp.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/snapshots/BetaRawTests/
11:29
stjepan
:/
11:29
stjepan
ok thanks..
11:30
stjepan
i have no diea what im cluicking XD
11:30
stjepan
i saw the cat and printer photo
11:31
stjepan
i think you should contact freecodecamp. they can make you for free a better website
11:31
Spirit532
the apertus website looks good
11:32
stjepan
a designer should answer that questin
11:33
stjepan
not you and me :D
11:34
Spirit532
you don't have to be a designer to see that the website is easy and intuitive
11:35
stjepan
o.o sorry but other camera companys have much intuitive websites
11:35
stjepan
much more*
11:53
kaiserlich
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11:53
Bertl
we are not like other camera companies
11:53
Spirit532
for one, completely opensource
11:53
Spirit532
which is kinda cool
12:02
stjepan
could be right, that it is useful.
12:03
Spirit532
though I wish there was a $500 variant, even of the dev system
12:03
Spirit532
sadly, sensors and the microzed are expensive
12:03
stjepan
how long will the battery stand up?
12:03
Spirit532
there's no battery yet
12:03
stjepan
T__T
12:04
Spirit532
you make that sound like it's the end of the world
12:04
stjepan
if it is not bigger than blackmagics?
12:04
Spirit532
you can power it from anything you want as long as it outputs the needed voltage and can supply enough current
12:04
stjepan
battery is battery.
12:04
stjepan
oO
12:05
Spirit532
yeah, whatever battery you want
12:05
stjepan
huh
12:05
Spirit532
you sound really clueless for someone that's "interested in camera and film gear"
12:05
stjepan
imagine a very big battery :D 30 cm x 30 cm. a cable to the camera. and you can film the whole day
12:06
Spirit532
also known as a car battery
12:06
stjepan
nono. not this
12:06
Spirit532
that'd last you a few days of continuous filming
12:06
stjepan
you cant recharge it
12:06
Spirit532
you can
12:06
Spirit532
lol
12:06
stjepan
oO
12:06
stjepan
no idea
12:06
Spirit532
cars recharge the battery every time they run
12:06
stjepan
bcs they brake?
12:07
Spirit532
>_<
12:07
stjepan
i cant know that stuff
12:07
stjepan
i am interested in filming XD not in...
12:08
stjepan
not in whatever topic this is now
12:08
stjepan
:D
12:08
stjepan
better pic, xlr and a great battery solution. filmer don't need more
12:08
stjepan
better than bmcc
12:09
stjepan
and of course a solution for slow-motion
12:09
Spirit532
not possible with the current hardware
12:09
Spirit532
at least not for very long periods of time
12:09
stjepan
the slowmo?
12:10
Spirit532
yes
12:10
stjepan
you s aid 1000 fps is possible with 2k resolution
12:10
Spirit532
no
12:10
Spirit532
it's not
12:10
Spirit532
not with the CMV12000 sensor
12:11
stjepan
ok
12:11
stjepan
how much fps?
12:11
Spirit532
I think it'll do 840fps at 1080 lines
12:11
Spirit532
don't remember
12:12
stjepan
progressive lines?
12:12
Spirit532
global shutter
12:12
stjepan
.__.
12:12
stjepan
what
12:12
Spirit532
you take the entire picture at once
12:12
Spirit532
you don't scan
12:12
stjepan
what is global shutter
12:13
Spirit532
take picture -> read out
12:14
stjepan
stop this XD
12:15
stjepan
i dont get it
12:15
stjepan
i thought progeressive is full pic
12:15
Spirit532
no
12:15
stjepan
or 2 pics overlayed
12:15
stjepan
on each other
12:15
stjepan
too hard for me
12:16
Spirit532
progressive is atking the entire picture continuously
12:16
Spirit532
top to bottom or whatever you want
12:17
Spirit532
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/InterlaceProgressive10hz.gif
12:17
Spirit532
this is a good example, but it's not very relevant anymore
12:17
Spirit532
because global shutter takes the entire picture, for the sake of simplicity, in one moment in time
12:17
stjepan
eh..............
12:18
stjepan
ok. global shutter = takes the entire picture.
12:18
stjepan
end
12:18
Spirit532
yes
12:20
stjepan
:)
12:20
Spirit532
the Blackmagic URSA has the same sensor as the Beta
12:20
stjepan
is smarter than he looks like. ;D
12:21
stjepan
gamma will have a betteerP
12:21
stjepan
?
12:21
Spirit532
no idea
12:21
stjepan
i hope
12:21
Spirit532
you can't say that either is better
12:21
Spirit532
you haven't touched a sensor in your life
12:21
stjepan
i dont need to touch it so say which one is better for me
12:21
Spirit532
no, you do
12:22
Spirit532
because you just look at the final shots
12:22
Spirit532
not the datasheets or specs
12:22
stjepan
yes.
12:22
stjepan
so why i am in love with footage made with arri, Spirit532 ?
12:22
Spirit532
because you've been given footage made with arri
12:22
stjepan
red footage isn't so nice as arri
12:22
Spirit532
post-processed
12:22
stjepan
no. its raw
12:22
Spirit532
it isn't.
12:22
Spirit532
you'd throw out any arri that showed you real raw images
12:22
stjepan
if i edit other cameras videos it just looks bad
12:23
stjepan
i never saw nice looking dslr grading
12:23
stjepan
except at that one series
12:23
Spirit532
this isn't about grading
12:23
stjepan
the doctor
12:23
stjepan
i saw enough raw arri footages -.-
12:23
Spirit532
they are not raw.
12:23
stjepan
oh come on
12:24
stjepan
they are raw enough
12:24
stjepan
to be titled "raw", so?
12:24
Spirit532
in the cinema world yes
12:24
stjepan
and this is a cinema camera
12:24
Spirit532
not in the development world, or however you'd like to call that
12:25
stjepan
why are we chatting now about this...
12:25
Spirit532
again, raw pictures from any sensor, including the CMV12000 the beta uses, looks absolutely awful
12:25
Spirit532
and you'd never buy a camera that output images that bad
12:25
stjepan
its like a 300 ⬠camcorder or what?
12:25
Spirit532
possibly less
12:26
Spirit532
but again, the 300E camcorder's images are heavily processed and have much less info
12:26
Spirit532
than the CMV12000 raw output
12:26
Spirit532
which, because the camera is opensource, can be modified in any way you wish
12:27
Spirit532
you can dump raw images and process them yourself from scratch
12:27
Spirit532
or you can do the basic FPN removal and debayering on the FPGA
12:27
stjepan
:/ to much non-relevant stuff
12:28
Spirit532
it's all very relevant
12:28
stjepan
for who
12:28
Spirit532
not you, the clueless consumer.
12:29
stjepan
ahh. there we have it.
12:29
stjepan
o.o#
12:34
stjepan
i feel so bad now.
12:34
stjepan
i still don't get it why i like arris films
12:55
RexOrCine
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jucar
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13:27
se6astian
those guys from apertus ...
13:27
se6astian
its a silly place
13:27
se6astian
https://twitter.com/ApertusOSCinema/status/727852090245132290
13:27
se6astian
run away!
13:28
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
13:54
kaiserlich
*folks!
14:16
stjepan
0,0
14:17
kaiserlich
what
14:21
stjepan
hi
14:22
stjepan
kaizzerr
14:23
kaiserlich
hi
14:23
kaiserlich
aaand bye â i'm off to the post office now :P
14:24
kaiserlich
left the channel
14:24
Bertl
~.
14:30
jucar
left the channel
14:34
Bertl
strange ... window manager locked up but obviously not completely
14:46
danieel
stjepan: the arri footage is quite a lot processed - lets say normalized, to the level which you see as raw. you can read the process on their page
14:47
stjepan
ok. that is not bad, if it is processed. :)
14:47
stjepan
who cares if it is really raw or not :) what matters is that the pic is how you want it
14:47
danieel
well, if the processing covers the 99% of use cases and users...
14:48
danieel
to bad that we here fall to the remaining 1% :)
14:48
danieel
*too
14:49
stjepan
i am just here bcs of the price
14:56
Bertl
because of the Beta price?
15:02
Spirit532
you're not getting a full camera with the beta
15:02
Spirit532
you can't just turn it on and start filming
15:03
Spirit532
it's a DEVELOPMENT kit
15:03
Spirit532
you develop things
15:04
Bertl
so because of what price are you here then?
15:04
Bertl
ah, sorry, I should read who 'answers' :)
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
joined the channel
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se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
15:40
stjepan
someone said 5700 ⬠will be the price in at the end of this year for the full camera
15:42
stjepan
Bertl, Spirit532 danieel
15:42
Spirit532
okay?
15:43
stjepan
Bertl, said that
15:43
stjepan
100%
15:43
stjepan
and why should it be more expensive? :D nobody would buy it
15:45
kaiserlich
left the channel
15:51
Bertl
stjepan: correct with the price
16:14
monomono_
left the channel
17:10
RexO
Has Alex made the temporary housing print files public do you know?
17:10
stjepan
oh i am stupid.. the beta is a dev. kit... ok..i got it
17:11
stjepan
but the gamma? will it be a full body?
17:13
Bertl
yup, but also more expensive
17:14
stjepan
hm...
17:14
Bertl
RexO: check with se6astian
17:14
stjepan
Bertl, . sebastian does not want to show me footages.
17:14
stjepan
:/
17:15
Bertl
I really doubt that, but if so, he probably has a good reason
17:16
stjepan
am i annoying? :D
17:16
Bertl
nah, we've seen worse
17:17
stjepan
kk
17:19
RexO
The Beta is only a dev kit for the time being stjepan. It will be fully fledged in the coming months.
17:20
stjepan
hm okey. so it is too early to ask questions?
17:20
Bertl
well, actually it will never stop being a dev kit, but it will also be a full fledged camera
17:21
Bertl
stjepan: no, absolutely not, it's always good to ask questions
17:21
stjepan
:/
17:22
Bertl
it helps if the questions are related to the current state of the Beta though
17:22
RexO
We're in the process of redesigning the website.
17:24
stjepan
mostly you're doing this camera for consumers and not for devs so the dev releated stuf fshould go into a corner at the right top or so and not in the middle of the page
17:24
stjepan
or it is not mostly for end consumers?
17:24
stjepan
o.O
17:24
Bertl
it is for both, currently more for developers
17:24
stjepan
so others can sell their developed camera or how?
17:25
Bertl
of course you can sell whatever you develop with the AXIOM
17:25
stjepan
you should better to develop, not the others
17:25
stjepan
-to
17:26
stjepan
then just sell the modulars.
17:26
Bertl
most developers getting the Early Betas will develop for 'us'
17:29
stjepan
and why do they develop for you? ... i dont get it
17:31
Bertl
because they like open source projects and want to contribute
17:35
stjepan
oh shit i am so wrong here :D
18:06
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
18:06
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
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se6astian
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RexO
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Rex0r
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davidak
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