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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2016/05/04

Timezone: UTC


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Bertl_zZ
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05:02
Bertl
morning folks!
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11:13
RexO
Greets.
11:13
stjepan
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11:14
stjepan
back in da house
11:14
stjepan
hust
11:14
Bertl
wb
11:30
stjepan
wie viel kostet derzeit eine axiom beta?^^
11:31
Spirit532
they don't speak german
11:31
Spirit532
or do they?
11:31
stjepan
ups sry
11:31
Spirit532
either way this is an english channel
11:31
stjepan
how much does a axiom cost at the moment?
11:32
stjepan
and what will the price be after release
11:38
Bertl
if you build it yourself, the components are about 2300 EUR
11:38
Bertl
where the sensor is the most expensive part
11:38
Bertl
if you contribute to development with 800 EUR, you get a voucher, which will give you one assembled Beta at cost
11:39
stjepan
o.ö
11:39
stjepan
so cheap? Ã.ó
11:39
Bertl
we will sell the assembled Beta later (end of the year) for about 5700 EUR
11:39
Spirit532
5700EUR?
11:39
Spirit532
that is a lot
11:39
Spirit532
wouldn't the price go DOWN with quantity?
11:40
Bertl
probably, but we don't expect large quantities at the moment
11:40
stjepan
5700 is something else than 2300 unassembled....
11:40
Spirit532
by unassembled they mean completely bare
11:40
Spirit532
baggies of componentry and boards
11:40
Bertl
or about 3000 EUR assembled if you contribute to development
11:41
stjepan
unassembled means you have to build it? but you dont have to buy anything else?
11:41
Spirit532
yeah, but you need to build it completely from scratch
11:41
Spirit532
aside from the microzed
11:41
stjepan
is that hard for a non-technician?
11:41
Spirit532
very
11:42
Spirit532
you need at least a reflow oven, basic SMD soldering station
11:42
stjepan
i think a hack club should have that?
11:42
stjepan
like in germany
11:42
Spirit532
if you don't have ANY experience, you won't be able to do it
11:42
Spirit532
Bertl, what's the smallest footprint on the boards?
11:43
Bertl
reflow oven is advised but not strictly required
11:43
Bertl
the smallest parts are 0201, but they are currently not populated
11:43
Spirit532
and the populated ones?
11:43
Bertl
so you can get away with 0402 as smallest feature
11:44
Spirit532
yeah, someone with no experience doing SMD work will never accomplish that without either trashing a few boards or practicing a LOT
11:44
Spirit532
0805 is tedious to do on a larger scale, let alone 0402
11:44
Bertl
yes, if you have no experience soldering SMD, you should find somebody who does, or start practicing
11:45
stjepan
are ccc-members who are not technician nerds? :D
11:45
stjepan
are there*
11:45
Bertl
not necessarily, but nerds do not need to be technicians
11:46
stjepan
don't understand
11:46
Bertl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd
11:46
stjepan
ah das meinst du
11:46
stjepan
intensive interessenbeschäfitigung ok
11:49
Spirit532
apertus has a slightly higher-end audience in mind
11:49
Spirit532
reclaim control of your craft & all
11:49
Spirit532
filmmakers
11:49
Spirit532
I'm leaning more towards really low-end, cheap stuff
11:51
Spirit532
but my project is only at the very beginning so far, nothing is concrete and no parts are purchased
11:52
stjepan
i want high end products :D
11:52
stjepan
i want beautiful image
11:52
Spirit532
my images will be beautiful
11:52
Spirit532
but FHD, not 4K
11:53
stjepan
dont need 4k
11:53
Spirit532
but with the added benefit of being able to shoot slightly lower quality, but still FHD, at 1000fps
11:53
stjepan
the biggest problem is still how to get actors without paying them
11:53
Spirit532
lol
11:53
Spirit532
not for me
11:53
Spirit532
I only develop hardware
11:53
stjepan
o0
11:53
Spirit532
don't care about actors
11:53
Bertl
stjepan: for sure you have some friends, no?
11:53
stjepan
i am interested in real movies :P not boring slowmo
11:54
stjepan
no Bertl . i am a loner
11:54
stjepan
<-<
11:54
stjepan
suresly now
11:54
stjepan
seriously*
11:54
Bertl
then I suggest to start talking to people in the park
11:54
stjepan
and if i would have friends, i could only make movies where the characters look naive and not professional. like for a comedy.
11:54
Bertl
some of them might want to pursue a carrier in acting
11:55
stjepan
asking in a park... i am not the best social pro
11:55
stjepan
i live in the internet world only :D
11:56
Bertl
then you probably should forget about the camera part and focus on rendered movies
11:56
Bertl
for that, you do not need to be social and you definitely do not need actors :)
11:58
stjepan
still not possible. you can't make a cgi movie/webseries/whatever with a one men band... not fast enough to produce weekly medium
11:58
stjepan
and i still love real life films
11:58
stjepan
ill see :P
11:59
stjepan
if y our cam is better than bmcs then i ll buy it
11:59
Spirit532
it is
11:59
Spirit532
will be anyway
11:59
Spirit532
it's not a user-friendly thing right now
11:59
stjepan
you axiom fan boy haha
11:59
stjepan
is there a very dark raw record i can see ?
12:00
Spirit532
ask se6astian
12:00
stjepan
wanna see its low light skills
12:00
stjepan
he again..
12:00
Spirit532
what? I don't have a camera of my own
12:00
stjepan
but Bertl has
12:00
Spirit532
Bertl works with se6astian
12:00
stjepan
and he recorded so much, he said
12:01
stjepan
ah. oh
12:01
Bertl
yes, se6astian has recorded an awful lot, and most of it is available somewhere
12:01
Bertl
so simply contact him and he will find some footage for you
12:02
Bertl
please note that RAW on the AXIOM is really raw
12:02
Spirit532
direct sensor output
12:02
Bertl
i.e. not what you usually get from proprietary cameras
12:02
Spirit532
no processing
12:02
Spirit532
do you remove FPN yet?
12:02
stjepan
like raw from arri or red or a gh4?
12:02
Bertl
Spirit532: it can be removed if configured, i.e. the camera does it on the fly if you load the appropriate tables
12:03
Bertl
stjepan: yep, those are not really raw
12:03
stjepan
o0
12:03
Spirit532
raw from production cameras is very far from raw
12:03
stjepan
there is a reason why it is not fully raw :) perhaps a goodish reason? :>
12:03
Spirit532
yes...?
12:03
Spirit532
raw images from ANY sensor look absolutely terrible
12:03
stjepan
to make it easier?
12:04
stjepan
i love the flat look from raw files oo
12:04
stjepan
looks like a zombie movie
12:04
Spirit532
those aren't really raw
12:06
stjepan
hm
12:07
stjepan
can i have a link to a page which shows me more?
12:07
Spirit532
no such page
12:07
Bertl
about how non-raw raw is?
12:07
Spirit532
but raw from the production cameras is just uncompressed, but processed video
12:07
Spirit532
removing fixed-pattern noise, etc
12:08
Bertl
dead pixels, linearization, often even debayering
12:09
Bertl
the only difference to a 'processed' image is that it doesn't have the compression artefacts
12:09
stjepan
technical theorie is .... bbad ^^
12:10
stjepan
i have no idea what youre talking about
12:10
stjepan
ill wait till sebastians arrival
12:11
Bertl
think of it like selling a heavily photoshopped image as 'the original' :)
12:11
stjepan
dont understand, still
12:11
Spirit532
production camera raw isn't raw
12:12
Spirit532
real raw looks awful
12:12
Spirit532
that's all you need to know
12:13
stjepan
i know that it doesntl ook awful
12:13
stjepan
and few million others too
12:14
stjepan
perhaps billins oO
12:23
Spirit532
oh it does
12:23
Spirit532
you haven't seen real raw
12:23
stjepan
show? :D
12:25
Spirit532
ask se6astian
12:25
Bertl
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-alpha-first-images
12:25
Spirit532
and there's that
12:25
Bertl
here you have the first raw image we acquired (a long time ago :)
12:26
stjepan
why isnt the site then updated with current footages? ;)
12:26
Bertl
it is, you just have to browse through
12:27
stjepan
sorry, but the site isn't user friendly or? i have problems to get through it
12:27
Bertl
you can get some raw data here, if you don't care what you find
12:27
Bertl
ftp://ftp.apertus.org/
12:28
Bertl
specifically here: ftp://ftp.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/snapshots/BetaRawTests/
12:29
stjepan
:/
12:29
stjepan
ok thanks..
12:30
stjepan
i have no diea what im cluicking XD
12:30
stjepan
i saw the cat and printer photo
12:31
stjepan
i think you should contact freecodecamp. they can make you for free a better website
12:31
Spirit532
the apertus website looks good
12:32
stjepan
a designer should answer that questin
12:33
stjepan
not you and me :D
12:34
Spirit532
you don't have to be a designer to see that the website is easy and intuitive
12:35
stjepan
o.o sorry but other camera companys have much intuitive websites
12:35
stjepan
much more*
12:53
kaiserlich
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12:53
Bertl
we are not like other camera companies
12:53
Spirit532
for one, completely opensource
12:53
Spirit532
which is kinda cool
13:02
stjepan
could be right, that it is useful.
13:03
Spirit532
though I wish there was a $500 variant, even of the dev system
13:03
Spirit532
sadly, sensors and the microzed are expensive
13:03
stjepan
how long will the battery stand up?
13:03
Spirit532
there's no battery yet
13:03
stjepan
T__T
13:04
Spirit532
you make that sound like it's the end of the world
13:04
stjepan
if it is not bigger than blackmagics?
13:04
Spirit532
you can power it from anything you want as long as it outputs the needed voltage and can supply enough current
13:04
stjepan
battery is battery.
13:04
stjepan
oO
13:05
Spirit532
yeah, whatever battery you want
13:05
stjepan
huh
13:05
Spirit532
you sound really clueless for someone that's "interested in camera and film gear"
13:05
stjepan
imagine a very big battery :D 30 cm x 30 cm. a cable to the camera. and you can film the whole day
13:06
Spirit532
also known as a car battery
13:06
stjepan
nono. not this
13:06
Spirit532
that'd last you a few days of continuous filming
13:06
stjepan
you cant recharge it
13:06
Spirit532
you can
13:06
Spirit532
lol
13:06
stjepan
oO
13:06
stjepan
no idea
13:06
Spirit532
cars recharge the battery every time they run
13:06
stjepan
bcs they brake?
13:07
Spirit532
>_<
13:07
stjepan
i cant know that stuff
13:07
stjepan
i am interested in filming XD not in...
13:08
stjepan
not in whatever topic this is now
13:08
stjepan
:D
13:08
stjepan
better pic, xlr and a great battery solution. filmer don't need more
13:08
stjepan
better than bmcc
13:09
stjepan
and of course a solution for slow-motion
13:09
Spirit532
not possible with the current hardware
13:09
Spirit532
at least not for very long periods of time
13:09
stjepan
the slowmo?
13:10
Spirit532
yes
13:10
stjepan
you s aid 1000 fps is possible with 2k resolution
13:10
Spirit532
no
13:10
Spirit532
it's not
13:10
Spirit532
not with the CMV12000 sensor
13:11
stjepan
ok
13:11
stjepan
how much fps?
13:11
Spirit532
I think it'll do 840fps at 1080 lines
13:11
Spirit532
don't remember
13:12
stjepan
progressive lines?
13:12
Spirit532
global shutter
13:12
stjepan
.__.
13:12
stjepan
what
13:12
Spirit532
you take the entire picture at once
13:12
Spirit532
you don't scan
13:12
stjepan
what is global shutter
13:13
Spirit532
take picture -> read out
13:14
stjepan
stop this XD
13:15
stjepan
i dont get it
13:15
stjepan
i thought progeressive is full pic
13:15
Spirit532
no
13:15
stjepan
or 2 pics overlayed
13:15
stjepan
on each other
13:15
stjepan
too hard for me
13:16
Spirit532
progressive is atking the entire picture continuously
13:16
Spirit532
top to bottom or whatever you want
13:17
Spirit532
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/InterlaceProgressive10hz.gif
13:17
Spirit532
this is a good example, but it's not very relevant anymore
13:17
Spirit532
because global shutter takes the entire picture, for the sake of simplicity, in one moment in time
13:17
stjepan
eh..............
13:18
stjepan
ok. global shutter = takes the entire picture.
13:18
stjepan
end
13:18
Spirit532
yes
13:20
stjepan
:)
13:20
Spirit532
the Blackmagic URSA has the same sensor as the Beta
13:20
stjepan
is smarter than he looks like. ;D
13:21
stjepan
gamma will have a betteerP
13:21
stjepan
?
13:21
Spirit532
no idea
13:21
stjepan
i hope
13:21
Spirit532
you can't say that either is better
13:21
Spirit532
you haven't touched a sensor in your life
13:21
stjepan
i dont need to touch it so say which one is better for me
13:21
Spirit532
no, you do
13:22
Spirit532
because you just look at the final shots
13:22
Spirit532
not the datasheets or specs
13:22
stjepan
yes.
13:22
stjepan
so why i am in love with footage made with arri, Spirit532 ?
13:22
Spirit532
because you've been given footage made with arri
13:22
stjepan
red footage isn't so nice as arri
13:22
Spirit532
post-processed
13:22
stjepan
no. its raw
13:22
Spirit532
it isn't.
13:22
Spirit532
you'd throw out any arri that showed you real raw images
13:22
stjepan
if i edit other cameras videos it just looks bad
13:23
stjepan
i never saw nice looking dslr grading
13:23
stjepan
except at that one series
13:23
Spirit532
this isn't about grading
13:23
stjepan
the doctor
13:23
stjepan
i saw enough raw arri footages -.-
13:23
Spirit532
they are not raw.
13:23
stjepan
oh come on
13:24
stjepan
they are raw enough
13:24
stjepan
to be titled "raw", so?
13:24
Spirit532
in the cinema world yes
13:24
stjepan
and this is a cinema camera
13:24
Spirit532
not in the development world, or however you'd like to call that
13:25
stjepan
why are we chatting now about this...
13:25
Spirit532
again, raw pictures from any sensor, including the CMV12000 the beta uses, looks absolutely awful
13:25
Spirit532
and you'd never buy a camera that output images that bad
13:25
stjepan
its like a 300 ⬠camcorder or what?
13:25
Spirit532
possibly less
13:26
Spirit532
but again, the 300E camcorder's images are heavily processed and have much less info
13:26
Spirit532
than the CMV12000 raw output
13:26
Spirit532
which, because the camera is opensource, can be modified in any way you wish
13:27
Spirit532
you can dump raw images and process them yourself from scratch
13:27
Spirit532
or you can do the basic FPN removal and debayering on the FPGA
13:27
stjepan
:/ to much non-relevant stuff
13:28
Spirit532
it's all very relevant
13:28
stjepan
for who
13:28
Spirit532
not you, the clueless consumer.
13:29
stjepan
ahh. there we have it.
13:29
stjepan
o.o#
13:34
stjepan
i feel so bad now.
13:34
stjepan
i still don't get it why i like arris films
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RexOrCine
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jucar
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14:27
se6astian
those guys from apertus ...
14:27
se6astian
its a silly place
14:27
se6astian
https://twitter.com/ApertusOSCinema/status/727852090245132290
14:27
se6astian
run away!
14:28
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
14:54
kaiserlich
*folks!
15:16
stjepan
0,0
15:17
kaiserlich
what
15:21
stjepan
hi
15:22
stjepan
kaizzerr
15:23
kaiserlich
hi
15:23
kaiserlich
aaand bye â i'm off to the post office now :P
15:24
kaiserlich
left the channel
15:24
Bertl
~.
15:30
jucar
left the channel
15:34
Bertl
strange ... window manager locked up but obviously not completely
15:46
danieel
stjepan: the arri footage is quite a lot processed - lets say normalized, to the level which you see as raw. you can read the process on their page
15:47
stjepan
ok. that is not bad, if it is processed. :)
15:47
stjepan
who cares if it is really raw or not :) what matters is that the pic is how you want it
15:47
danieel
well, if the processing covers the 99% of use cases and users...
15:48
danieel
to bad that we here fall to the remaining 1% :)
15:48
danieel
*too
15:49
stjepan
i am just here bcs of the price
15:56
Bertl
because of the Beta price?
16:02
Spirit532
you're not getting a full camera with the beta
16:02
Spirit532
you can't just turn it on and start filming
16:03
Spirit532
it's a DEVELOPMENT kit
16:03
Spirit532
you develop things
16:04
Bertl
so because of what price are you here then?
16:04
Bertl
ah, sorry, I should read who 'answers' :)
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kaiserlich
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kaiserlich
left the channel
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kaiserlich
joined the channel
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se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
16:40
stjepan
someone said 5700 ⬠will be the price in at the end of this year for the full camera
16:42
stjepan
Bertl, Spirit532 danieel
16:42
Spirit532
okay?
16:43
stjepan
Bertl, said that
16:43
stjepan
100%
16:43
stjepan
and why should it be more expensive? :D nobody would buy it
16:45
kaiserlich
left the channel
16:51
Bertl
stjepan: correct with the price
17:14
monomono_
left the channel
18:10
RexO
Has Alex made the temporary housing print files public do you know?
18:10
stjepan
oh i am stupid.. the beta is a dev. kit... ok..i got it
18:11
stjepan
but the gamma? will it be a full body?
18:13
Bertl
yup, but also more expensive
18:14
stjepan
hm...
18:14
Bertl
RexO: check with se6astian
18:14
stjepan
Bertl, . sebastian does not want to show me footages.
18:14
stjepan
:/
18:15
Bertl
I really doubt that, but if so, he probably has a good reason
18:16
stjepan
am i annoying? :D
18:16
Bertl
nah, we've seen worse
18:17
stjepan
kk
18:19
RexO
The Beta is only a dev kit for the time being stjepan. It will be fully fledged in the coming months.
18:20
stjepan
hm okey. so it is too early to ask questions?
18:20
Bertl
well, actually it will never stop being a dev kit, but it will also be a full fledged camera
18:21
Bertl
stjepan: no, absolutely not, it's always good to ask questions
18:21
stjepan
:/
18:22
Bertl
it helps if the questions are related to the current state of the Beta though
18:22
RexO
We're in the process of redesigning the website.
18:24
stjepan
mostly you're doing this camera for consumers and not for devs so the dev releated stuf fshould go into a corner at the right top or so and not in the middle of the page
18:24
stjepan
or it is not mostly for end consumers?
18:24
stjepan
o.O
18:24
Bertl
it is for both, currently more for developers
18:24
stjepan
so others can sell their developed camera or how?
18:25
Bertl
of course you can sell whatever you develop with the AXIOM
18:25
stjepan
you should better to develop, not the others
18:25
stjepan
-to
18:26
stjepan
then just sell the modulars.
18:26
Bertl
most developers getting the Early Betas will develop for 'us'
18:29
stjepan
and why do they develop for you? ... i dont get it
18:31
Bertl
because they like open source projects and want to contribute
18:35
stjepan
oh shit i am so wrong here :D
19:06
Bertl
off for now ... bbl
19:06
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_oO
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se6astian
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RexO
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Rex0r
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davidak
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