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05:02 | Bertl | morning folks!
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11:13 | RexO | Greets.
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11:14 | stjepan | back in da house
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11:14 | stjepan | hust
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11:14 | Bertl | wb
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11:30 | stjepan | wie viel kostet derzeit eine axiom beta?^^
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11:31 | Spirit532 | they don't speak german
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11:31 | Spirit532 | or do they?
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11:31 | stjepan | ups sry
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11:31 | Spirit532 | either way this is an english channel
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11:31 | stjepan | how much does a axiom cost at the moment?
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11:32 | stjepan | and what will the price be after release
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11:38 | Bertl | if you build it yourself, the components are about 2300 EUR
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11:38 | Bertl | where the sensor is the most expensive part
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11:38 | Bertl | if you contribute to development with 800 EUR, you get a voucher, which will give you one assembled Beta at cost
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11:39 | stjepan | o.ö
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11:39 | stjepan | so cheap? Ò.ó
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11:39 | Bertl | we will sell the assembled Beta later (end of the year) for about 5700 EUR
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11:39 | Spirit532 | 5700EUR?
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11:39 | Spirit532 | that is a lot
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11:39 | Spirit532 | wouldn't the price go DOWN with quantity?
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11:40 | Bertl | probably, but we don't expect large quantities at the moment
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11:40 | stjepan | 5700 is something else than 2300 unassembled....
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11:40 | Spirit532 | by unassembled they mean completely bare
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11:40 | Spirit532 | baggies of componentry and boards
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11:40 | Bertl | or about 3000 EUR assembled if you contribute to development
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11:41 | stjepan | unassembled means you have to build it? but you dont have to buy anything else?
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11:41 | Spirit532 | yeah, but you need to build it completely from scratch
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11:41 | Spirit532 | aside from the microzed
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11:41 | stjepan | is that hard for a non-technician?
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11:41 | Spirit532 | very
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11:42 | Spirit532 | you need at least a reflow oven, basic SMD soldering station
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11:42 | stjepan | i think a hack club should have that?
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11:42 | stjepan | like in germany
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11:42 | Spirit532 | if you don't have ANY experience, you won't be able to do it
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11:42 | Spirit532 | Bertl, what's the smallest footprint on the boards?
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11:43 | Bertl | reflow oven is advised but not strictly required
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11:43 | Bertl | the smallest parts are 0201, but they are currently not populated
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11:43 | Spirit532 | and the populated ones?
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11:43 | Bertl | so you can get away with 0402 as smallest feature
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11:44 | Spirit532 | yeah, someone with no experience doing SMD work will never accomplish that without either trashing a few boards or practicing a LOT
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11:44 | Spirit532 | 0805 is tedious to do on a larger scale, let alone 0402
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11:44 | Bertl | yes, if you have no experience soldering SMD, you should find somebody who does, or start practicing
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11:45 | stjepan | are ccc-members who are not technician nerds? :D
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11:45 | stjepan | are there*
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11:45 | Bertl | not necessarily, but nerds do not need to be technicians
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11:46 | stjepan | don't understand
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11:46 | Bertl | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd
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11:46 | stjepan | ah das meinst du
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11:46 | stjepan | intensive interessenbeschäfitigung ok
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11:49 | Spirit532 | apertus has a slightly higher-end audience in mind
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11:49 | Spirit532 | reclaim control of your craft & all
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11:49 | Spirit532 | filmmakers
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11:49 | Spirit532 | I'm leaning more towards really low-end, cheap stuff
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11:51 | Spirit532 | but my project is only at the very beginning so far, nothing is concrete and no parts are purchased
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11:52 | stjepan | i want high end products :D
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11:52 | stjepan | i want beautiful image
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11:52 | Spirit532 | my images will be beautiful
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11:52 | Spirit532 | but FHD, not 4K
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11:53 | stjepan | dont need 4k
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11:53 | Spirit532 | but with the added benefit of being able to shoot slightly lower quality, but still FHD, at 1000fps
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11:53 | stjepan | the biggest problem is still how to get actors without paying them
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11:53 | Spirit532 | lol
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11:53 | Spirit532 | not for me
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11:53 | Spirit532 | I only develop hardware
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11:53 | stjepan | o0
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11:53 | Spirit532 | don't care about actors
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11:53 | Bertl | stjepan: for sure you have some friends, no?
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11:53 | stjepan | i am interested in real movies :P not boring slowmo
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11:54 | stjepan | no Bertl . i am a loner
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11:54 | stjepan | <-<
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11:54 | stjepan | suresly now
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11:54 | stjepan | seriously*
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11:54 | Bertl | then I suggest to start talking to people in the park
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11:54 | stjepan | and if i would have friends, i could only make movies where the characters look naive and not professional. like for a comedy.
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11:54 | Bertl | some of them might want to pursue a carrier in acting
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11:55 | stjepan | asking in a park... i am not the best social pro
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11:55 | stjepan | i live in the internet world only :D
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11:56 | Bertl | then you probably should forget about the camera part and focus on rendered movies
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11:56 | Bertl | for that, you do not need to be social and you definitely do not need actors :)
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11:58 | stjepan | still not possible. you can't make a cgi movie/webseries/whatever with a one men band... not fast enough to produce weekly medium
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11:58 | stjepan | and i still love real life films
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11:58 | stjepan | ill see :P
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11:59 | stjepan | if y our cam is better than bmcs then i ll buy it
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11:59 | Spirit532 | it is
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11:59 | Spirit532 | will be anyway
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11:59 | Spirit532 | it's not a user-friendly thing right now
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11:59 | stjepan | you axiom fan boy haha
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11:59 | stjepan | is there a very dark raw record i can see ?
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12:00 | Spirit532 | ask se6astian
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12:00 | stjepan | wanna see its low light skills
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12:00 | stjepan | he again..
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12:00 | Spirit532 | what? I don't have a camera of my own
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12:00 | stjepan | but Bertl has
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12:00 | Spirit532 | Bertl works with se6astian
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12:00 | stjepan | and he recorded so much, he said
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12:01 | stjepan | ah. oh
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12:01 | Bertl | yes, se6astian has recorded an awful lot, and most of it is available somewhere
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12:01 | Bertl | so simply contact him and he will find some footage for you
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12:02 | Bertl | please note that RAW on the AXIOM is really raw
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12:02 | Spirit532 | direct sensor output
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12:02 | Bertl | i.e. not what you usually get from proprietary cameras
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12:02 | Spirit532 | no processing
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12:02 | Spirit532 | do you remove FPN yet?
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12:02 | stjepan | like raw from arri or red or a gh4?
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12:02 | Bertl | Spirit532: it can be removed if configured, i.e. the camera does it on the fly if you load the appropriate tables
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12:03 | Bertl | stjepan: yep, those are not really raw
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12:03 | stjepan | o0
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12:03 | Spirit532 | raw from production cameras is very far from raw
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12:03 | stjepan | there is a reason why it is not fully raw :) perhaps a goodish reason? :>
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12:03 | Spirit532 | yes...?
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12:03 | Spirit532 | raw images from ANY sensor look absolutely terrible
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12:03 | stjepan | to make it easier?
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12:04 | stjepan | i love the flat look from raw files oo
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12:04 | stjepan | looks like a zombie movie
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12:04 | Spirit532 | those aren't really raw
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12:06 | stjepan | hm
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12:07 | stjepan | can i have a link to a page which shows me more?
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12:07 | Spirit532 | no such page
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12:07 | Bertl | about how non-raw raw is?
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12:07 | Spirit532 | but raw from the production cameras is just uncompressed, but processed video
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12:07 | Spirit532 | removing fixed-pattern noise, etc
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12:08 | Bertl | dead pixels, linearization, often even debayering
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12:09 | Bertl | the only difference to a 'processed' image is that it doesn't have the compression artefacts
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12:09 | stjepan | technical theorie is .... bbad ^^
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12:10 | stjepan | i have no idea what youre talking about
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12:10 | stjepan | ill wait till sebastians arrival
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12:11 | Bertl | think of it like selling a heavily photoshopped image as 'the original' :)
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12:11 | stjepan | dont understand, still
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12:11 | Spirit532 | production camera raw isn't raw
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12:12 | Spirit532 | real raw looks awful
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12:12 | Spirit532 | that's all you need to know
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12:13 | stjepan | i know that it doesntl ook awful
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12:13 | stjepan | and few million others too
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12:14 | stjepan | perhaps billins oO
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12:23 | Spirit532 | oh it does
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12:23 | Spirit532 | you haven't seen real raw
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12:23 | stjepan | show? :D
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12:25 | Spirit532 | ask se6astian
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12:25 | Bertl | https://www.apertus.org/axiom-alpha-first-images
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12:25 | Spirit532 | and there's that
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12:25 | Bertl | here you have the first raw image we acquired (a long time ago :)
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12:26 | stjepan | why isnt the site then updated with current footages? ;)
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12:26 | Bertl | it is, you just have to browse through
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12:27 | stjepan | sorry, but the site isn't user friendly or? i have problems to get through it
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12:27 | Bertl | you can get some raw data here, if you don't care what you find
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12:27 | Bertl | ftp://ftp.apertus.org/
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12:28 | Bertl | specifically here: ftp://ftp.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/snapshots/BetaRawTests/
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12:29 | stjepan | :/
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12:29 | stjepan | ok thanks..
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12:30 | stjepan | i have no diea what im cluicking XD
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12:30 | stjepan | i saw the cat and printer photo
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12:31 | stjepan | i think you should contact freecodecamp. they can make you for free a better website
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12:31 | Spirit532 | the apertus website looks good
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12:32 | stjepan | a designer should answer that questin
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12:33 | stjepan | not you and me :D
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12:34 | Spirit532 | you don't have to be a designer to see that the website is easy and intuitive
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12:35 | stjepan | o.o sorry but other camera companys have much intuitive websites
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12:35 | stjepan | much more*
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12:53 | Bertl | we are not like other camera companies
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12:53 | Spirit532 | for one, completely opensource
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12:53 | Spirit532 | which is kinda cool
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13:02 | stjepan | could be right, that it is useful.
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13:03 | Spirit532 | though I wish there was a $500 variant, even of the dev system
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13:03 | Spirit532 | sadly, sensors and the microzed are expensive
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13:03 | stjepan | how long will the battery stand up?
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13:03 | Spirit532 | there's no battery yet
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13:03 | stjepan | T__T
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13:04 | Spirit532 | you make that sound like it's the end of the world
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13:04 | stjepan | if it is not bigger than blackmagics?
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13:04 | Spirit532 | you can power it from anything you want as long as it outputs the needed voltage and can supply enough current
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13:04 | stjepan | battery is battery.
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13:04 | stjepan | oO
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13:05 | Spirit532 | yeah, whatever battery you want
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13:05 | stjepan | huh
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13:05 | Spirit532 | you sound really clueless for someone that's "interested in camera and film gear"
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13:05 | stjepan | imagine a very big battery :D 30 cm x 30 cm. a cable to the camera. and you can film the whole day
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13:06 | Spirit532 | also known as a car battery
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13:06 | stjepan | nono. not this
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13:06 | Spirit532 | that'd last you a few days of continuous filming
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13:06 | stjepan | you cant recharge it
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13:06 | Spirit532 | you can
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13:06 | Spirit532 | lol
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13:06 | stjepan | oO
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13:06 | stjepan | no idea
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13:06 | Spirit532 | cars recharge the battery every time they run
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13:06 | stjepan | bcs they brake?
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13:07 | Spirit532 | >_<
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13:07 | stjepan | i cant know that stuff
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13:07 | stjepan | i am interested in filming XD not in...
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13:08 | stjepan | not in whatever topic this is now
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13:08 | stjepan | :D
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13:08 | stjepan | better pic, xlr and a great battery solution. filmer don't need more
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13:08 | stjepan | better than bmcc
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13:09 | stjepan | and of course a solution for slow-motion
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13:09 | Spirit532 | not possible with the current hardware
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13:09 | Spirit532 | at least not for very long periods of time
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13:09 | stjepan | the slowmo?
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13:10 | Spirit532 | yes
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13:10 | stjepan | you s aid 1000 fps is possible with 2k resolution
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13:10 | Spirit532 | no
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13:10 | Spirit532 | it's not
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13:10 | Spirit532 | not with the CMV12000 sensor
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13:11 | stjepan | ok
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13:11 | stjepan | how much fps?
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13:11 | Spirit532 | I think it'll do 840fps at 1080 lines
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13:11 | Spirit532 | don't remember
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13:12 | stjepan | progressive lines?
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13:12 | Spirit532 | global shutter
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13:12 | stjepan | .__.
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13:12 | stjepan | what
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13:12 | Spirit532 | you take the entire picture at once
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13:12 | Spirit532 | you don't scan
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13:12 | stjepan | what is global shutter
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13:13 | Spirit532 | take picture -> read out
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13:14 | stjepan | stop this XD
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13:15 | stjepan | i dont get it
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13:15 | stjepan | i thought progeressive is full pic
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13:15 | Spirit532 | no
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13:15 | stjepan | or 2 pics overlayed
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13:15 | stjepan | on each other
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13:15 | stjepan | too hard for me
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13:16 | Spirit532 | progressive is atking the entire picture continuously
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13:16 | Spirit532 | top to bottom or whatever you want
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13:17 | Spirit532 | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/InterlaceProgressive10hz.gif
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13:17 | Spirit532 | this is a good example, but it's not very relevant anymore
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13:17 | Spirit532 | because global shutter takes the entire picture, for the sake of simplicity, in one moment in time
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13:17 | stjepan | eh..............
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13:18 | stjepan | ok. global shutter = takes the entire picture.
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13:18 | stjepan | end
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13:18 | Spirit532 | yes
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13:20 | stjepan | :)
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13:20 | Spirit532 | the Blackmagic URSA has the same sensor as the Beta
| 13:20 | stjepan | is smarter than he looks like. ;D
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13:21 | stjepan | gamma will have a betteerP
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13:21 | stjepan | ?
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13:21 | Spirit532 | no idea
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13:21 | stjepan | i hope
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13:21 | Spirit532 | you can't say that either is better
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13:21 | Spirit532 | you haven't touched a sensor in your life
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13:21 | stjepan | i dont need to touch it so say which one is better for me
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13:21 | Spirit532 | no, you do
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13:22 | Spirit532 | because you just look at the final shots
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13:22 | Spirit532 | not the datasheets or specs
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13:22 | stjepan | yes.
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13:22 | stjepan | so why i am in love with footage made with arri, Spirit532 ?
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13:22 | Spirit532 | because you've been given footage made with arri
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13:22 | stjepan | red footage isn't so nice as arri
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13:22 | Spirit532 | post-processed
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13:22 | stjepan | no. its raw
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13:22 | Spirit532 | it isn't.
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13:22 | Spirit532 | you'd throw out any arri that showed you real raw images
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13:22 | stjepan | if i edit other cameras videos it just looks bad
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13:23 | stjepan | i never saw nice looking dslr grading
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13:23 | stjepan | except at that one series
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13:23 | Spirit532 | this isn't about grading
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13:23 | stjepan | the doctor
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13:23 | stjepan | i saw enough raw arri footages -.-
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13:23 | Spirit532 | they are not raw.
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13:23 | stjepan | oh come on
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13:24 | stjepan | they are raw enough
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13:24 | stjepan | to be titled "raw", so?
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13:24 | Spirit532 | in the cinema world yes
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13:24 | stjepan | and this is a cinema camera
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13:24 | Spirit532 | not in the development world, or however you'd like to call that
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13:25 | stjepan | why are we chatting now about this...
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13:25 | Spirit532 | again, raw pictures from any sensor, including the CMV12000 the beta uses, looks absolutely awful
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13:25 | Spirit532 | and you'd never buy a camera that output images that bad
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13:25 | stjepan | its like a 300 € camcorder or what?
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13:25 | Spirit532 | possibly less
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13:26 | Spirit532 | but again, the 300E camcorder's images are heavily processed and have much less info
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13:26 | Spirit532 | than the CMV12000 raw output
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13:26 | Spirit532 | which, because the camera is opensource, can be modified in any way you wish
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13:27 | Spirit532 | you can dump raw images and process them yourself from scratch
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13:27 | Spirit532 | or you can do the basic FPN removal and debayering on the FPGA
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13:27 | stjepan | :/ to much non-relevant stuff
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13:28 | Spirit532 | it's all very relevant
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13:28 | stjepan | for who
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13:28 | Spirit532 | not you, the clueless consumer.
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13:29 | stjepan | ahh. there we have it.
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13:29 | stjepan | o.o#
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13:34 | stjepan | i feel so bad now.
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13:34 | stjepan | i still don't get it why i like arris films
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14:27 | se6astian | those guys from apertus ...
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14:27 | se6astian | its a silly place
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14:27 | se6astian | https://twitter.com/ApertusOSCinema/status/727852090245132290
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14:27 | se6astian | run away!
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14:28 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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14:54 | kaiserlich | *folks!
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15:16 | stjepan | 0,0
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15:17 | kaiserlich | what
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15:21 | stjepan | hi
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15:22 | stjepan | kaizzerr
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15:23 | kaiserlich | hi
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15:23 | kaiserlich | aaand bye – i'm off to the post office now :P
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15:24 | Bertl | ~.
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15:30 | jucar | left the channel | |
15:34 | Bertl | strange ... window manager locked up but obviously not completely
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15:46 | danieel | stjepan: the arri footage is quite a lot processed - lets say normalized, to the level which you see as raw. you can read the process on their page
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15:47 | stjepan | ok. that is not bad, if it is processed. :)
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15:47 | stjepan | who cares if it is really raw or not :) what matters is that the pic is how you want it
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15:47 | danieel | well, if the processing covers the 99% of use cases and users...
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15:48 | danieel | to bad that we here fall to the remaining 1% :)
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15:48 | danieel | *too
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15:49 | stjepan | i am just here bcs of the price
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15:56 | Bertl | because of the Beta price?
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16:02 | Spirit532 | you're not getting a full camera with the beta
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16:02 | Spirit532 | you can't just turn it on and start filming
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16:03 | Spirit532 | it's a DEVELOPMENT kit
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16:03 | Spirit532 | you develop things
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16:04 | Bertl | so because of what price are you here then?
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16:04 | Bertl | ah, sorry, I should read who 'answers' :)
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16:24 | kaiserlich | joined the channel | |
16:33 | se6astian|away | changed nick to: se6astian
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16:40 | stjepan | someone said 5700 € will be the price in at the end of this year for the full camera
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16:42 | stjepan | Bertl, Spirit532 danieel
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16:42 | Spirit532 | okay?
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16:43 | stjepan | Bertl, said that
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16:43 | stjepan | 100%
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16:43 | stjepan | and why should it be more expensive? :D nobody would buy it
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16:45 | kaiserlich | left the channel | |
16:51 | Bertl | stjepan: correct with the price
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17:14 | monomono_ | left the channel | |
18:10 | RexO | Has Alex made the temporary housing print files public do you know?
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18:10 | stjepan | oh i am stupid.. the beta is a dev. kit... ok..i got it
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18:11 | stjepan | but the gamma? will it be a full body?
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18:13 | Bertl | yup, but also more expensive
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18:14 | stjepan | hm...
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18:14 | Bertl | RexO: check with se6astian
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18:14 | stjepan | Bertl, . sebastian does not want to show me footages.
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18:14 | stjepan | :/
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18:15 | Bertl | I really doubt that, but if so, he probably has a good reason
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18:16 | stjepan | am i annoying? :D
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18:16 | Bertl | nah, we've seen worse
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18:17 | stjepan | kk
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18:19 | RexO | The Beta is only a dev kit for the time being stjepan. It will be fully fledged in the coming months.
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18:20 | stjepan | hm okey. so it is too early to ask questions?
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18:20 | Bertl | well, actually it will never stop being a dev kit, but it will also be a full fledged camera
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18:21 | Bertl | stjepan: no, absolutely not, it's always good to ask questions
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18:21 | stjepan | :/
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18:22 | Bertl | it helps if the questions are related to the current state of the Beta though
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18:22 | RexO | We're in the process of redesigning the website.
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18:24 | stjepan | mostly you're doing this camera for consumers and not for devs so the dev releated stuf fshould go into a corner at the right top or so and not in the middle of the page
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18:24 | stjepan | or it is not mostly for end consumers?
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18:24 | stjepan | o.O
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18:24 | Bertl | it is for both, currently more for developers
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18:24 | stjepan | so others can sell their developed camera or how?
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18:25 | Bertl | of course you can sell whatever you develop with the AXIOM
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18:25 | stjepan | you should better to develop, not the others
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18:25 | stjepan | -to
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18:26 | stjepan | then just sell the modulars.
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18:26 | Bertl | most developers getting the Early Betas will develop for 'us'
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18:29 | stjepan | and why do they develop for you? ... i dont get it
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18:31 | Bertl | because they like open source projects and want to contribute
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18:35 | stjepan | oh shit i am so wrong here :D
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19:06 | Bertl | off for now ... bbl
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19:06 | Bertl | changed nick to: Bertl_oO
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19:13 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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20:24 | RexO | left the channel | |
20:24 | Rex0r | joined the channel | |
21:00 | davidak | joined the channel |