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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/10/03

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00:02
comradekingu
Could PLR be implemented for only some and not all highlights, or is it a global thing?
00:02
troy_s
wescotte: Per well would be temporal nasty.
00:02
Bertl
reading happens in a pipeline, i.e. per LVDS channel you get an ADC which samples all the rows/columns one after the other
00:02
troy_s
comradekingu: Global voltage. Not sure how it would work otherwise.
00:03
troy_s
comradekingu: Why would you want that exactly?
00:03
Bertl
but as the shutter is a global shutter and a pipelined architecture, the voltages resulting from the exposure are 'copied' into a sample and hold buffer to make room for the next exposure
00:06
comradekingu
troy_s: instead of spending time highlighting everything evenly you could compress it down to a set target
00:07
comradekingu
and just bite the bullet on increased noise
00:07
intracube
comradekingu: did you look at the PDF that __anton__ linked to?
00:07
troy_s
comradekingu: what does that mean?
00:07
troy_s
comradekingu: Completely lost me
00:07
intracube
hi troy_s
00:08
troy_s
intracube: Greets.
00:08
comradekingu
A regular webcam has that effect, albeit not very controllable. At least thats what im thinking. And also i think you could do something more than adjust it on a per-scene basis
00:08
comradekingu
Will look at pdf
00:09
intracube
comradekingu: page 33-34
00:10
intracube
5.3.2 MULTIPLE SLOPE - This feature will partially reset those pixels which reach a programmable voltage, while leaving the other pixels untouched.
00:10
intracube
This can be done 2 times within one exposure time to achieve a maximum of 3 exposure slopes.
00:10
wescotte
troy_s: okay, I think I finally understand why you would apply a gain on the wells like you described.
00:11
wescotte
well maybe not :)
00:11
wescotte
I'm confused again :)
00:12
intracube
so each frame of video is split into 2 separate exposures. at the end of each exposure, individual wells that have a voltage above a certain level are partially discharged
00:13
intracube
meaning they can be filled further on the second exposure
00:13
intracube
(AIUI)
00:13
intracube
it sounds rather neat
00:14
wescotte
intracube: what benefit do you get by not discharging all the wells?
00:15
intracube
wells that are barely charged (the darkest parts of the image) don't loose the small amount of charge they have
00:16
intracube
it sounds like the result of that might be less noise/banding in the dark parts of the image
00:16
intracube
is guessing though
00:16
intracube
troy_s: Bertl: is that the gist of it?
00:16
wescotte
Ah, I keep forgetting about noise
00:17
__anton__
intracube: my reading of the PDF was - if well number x,y reaches VTFL3 earlier than a predefined moment in time then it does not accumulate any extra charge until that moment arrives.
00:17
troy_s
wescotte: Think of it as a trade
00:17
intracube
wescotte: and the eye is more sensitive in darker areas of the image (and more likely to see banding there) if the image is stored as true linear values -if- the bitdepth isn't high enough
00:17
troy_s
wescotte: Work through it just as this...
00:18
troy_s
If we have a sensor that is 1:1 linear (one photon, one recording of integer)
00:18
intracube
you couldn't (afaik) store true linear data in 8bits per channel as you'd see banding there
00:18
troy_s
We may only store a maximum of say, 100 levels.
00:18
Bertl
intracube: there are up to 12 bits, btw
00:18
intracube
which is why most 8bit image/video formats jpeg, bmp, tga, tiff etc store values already gamma encoded (not true linear)
00:19
troy_s
But if we implement a knee at 50 units, where we change to 2:1 we now can store 50 levels of light + 100
00:19
troy_s
(2:1)
00:19
troy_s
(2x remaining 50)
00:19
troy_s
If we put another knee in at 75
00:19
troy_s
And double again to 4:1
00:19
intracube
Bertl: yup, just saying what might happen if you mixed linear values + 8bit :)
00:19
troy_s
We can store 50+50+100
00:20
troy_s
But our granularity (the steps) are fewer... So in highlights, we have less gradation
00:20
troy_s
But, because human vision is also log
00:20
comradekingu
what if you had a ram-drive accessory?
00:20
intracube
is fast getting out of his depth :P
00:20
troy_s
We can't see into that ratio anyways.
00:21
troy_s
So it is closely akin to what our iris stops down and what we see in our brain
00:21
troy_s
(Our eyes are terribly insensitive at the higher iris stop range)
00:21
wescotte
troy_s: this is a single exposure right?
00:21
troy_s
So if we nail exposure, the reduced steps in the high end are not noticeable.
00:21
troy_s
Yes.
00:22
comradekingu
So is it only a benefit to set exposure at record time due to storage bottleneck for doing raw?
00:22
troy_s
If we boo boo and overexpose, we would need to crunch those values in post, and we would see posterization where we expect detail.
00:22
wescotte
troy_s: okay, I understand now.
00:22
troy_s
comradekingu: No. It is a sensor issue.
00:22
troy_s
comradekingu: The sensors are excitable surfaces, and they are display referred.
00:23
troy_s
That is, they have a max before the wells fill up.
00:23
comradekingu
what is a well?
00:23
troy_s
At that max, down to our noise floor,
00:23
troy_s
Micro site
00:23
troy_s
A photosite
00:23
troy_s
A sensel
00:23
troy_s
It is a light well (like water)
00:23
comradekingu
a dip in the histogram?
00:23
troy_s
When it fills up, there is no more it can hold (and indeed spills over at times)
00:24
troy_s
No... Per sensel / photo site on a sensor; it is akin to a light well.
00:24
Bertl
well, metaphorically speaking, yes
00:24
comradekingu
so range
00:24
Bertl
actually it is more complex than just a well structure :)
00:25
comradekingu
On the video it looked to me like someone was doing ISO adjustments over two sets of variances in light input
00:25
Bertl
let me know if you want to see how deep the rabbithole goes (regarding sensel), I have some very insightfull PDFs documenting the actual implementation
00:27
troy_s
Primer on Film and Digital Capture by Rob Hummel …: http://youtu.be/98FZ8C6HneE
00:28
troy_s
comradekingu: Watch that
00:28
troy_s
The well analogy works well to describe a few other phenomena
00:29
troy_s
wescotte: Anyways... If we call the excite of a photon x, we can set the voltage chart such that it records one value for 1x, or one value for 2x etc.
00:37
__anton__
comradekingu: a well is a single pixel I think
00:37
wescotte
troy_s: makes sense now.
00:37
troy_s
wescotte: Phew!
00:37
troy_s
__anton__: A single sensel. Not a pixel.
00:37
wescotte
troy_s: thanks for sticking with me :)
00:38
troy_s
A Bayer pattern is RGRGRG then GBGBGB etc... So you have to interpolate to get to a pixel. Hence R3D's bad math (see video)
00:38
troy_s
wescotte: Happy you found some sense in my dribbling.
00:38
comradekingu
makes sense what (nikon?) is doing about capturing two things with the same sensor by moving it half a pixel between shots or whatever they do
00:39
Bertl
I guess that is more to fight aliasing issues
00:40
troy_s
Supplemental data agree.
00:40
troy_s
And oscillating sensors have a long lineage... See film.
00:40
comradekingu
I think mounting the lens ring to the pcb is the only way the sensor can be pre-calibrated that allows for opening up the camera yourself. You would beed a little gap around the lensmount to make up for it
00:41
__anton__
left the channel
00:41
comradekingu
Is there any in-camera shake reduction going on?
00:42
troy_s
God no.
00:43
comradekingu
ok, in my head having the pcb sensor ring, (and if so needed supporting structure) seperate to the body of the camera is beneficial
00:43
comradekingu
also mounting the screws horizontally is
00:44
intracube
does this Multiple Slope technique give any artefacts? thought there was discussion here about possible temporal issues in the highlights
00:45
troy_s
intracube: No.
00:45
comradekingu
and the screws could be coupled to the actual inner camera with a little bit of flex, not enough that movement would incur, but enough to transfer some of the lens-weight
00:45
troy_s
intracube: It is all part of the same exposure frame.
00:45
intracube
troy_s: ah, nice!
00:45
comradekingu
and that would also be a minimal warranty against impact damage
00:46
troy_s
intracube: Hence why I have said the only real working HDR.
00:47
Bertl
comradekingu: do you have experience in camera design or other mechanical appliances?
00:48
theuberkevlar
left the channel
00:52
comradekingu
Bertl: how so, i visualise things in my head
00:52
Bertl
ah, I was just curious
00:54
comradekingu
I do make stuff, all things audio, some electronics and i try to help out where i can.
00:54
comradekingu
i like designing things
00:55
comradekingu
But someone above already gave away that aligning the lensmount with the sensor was the hard bit, or the critical part anyhow
00:56
comradekingu
Bertl: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1807005251/frankencamera-ii/?ref=kicktraq has one way of solving it
00:56
intracube
troy_s: so Red's HDRx mode =/= PLR technique? and might have issues in the highlights
00:57
comradekingu
I think that is patented by either leica or someone else though
00:57
intracube
like if a spark from a grinding wheel clipped the main exposure but didn't on the second highlights exposure
00:57
intracube
half the spark trail's length would be overexposed, the other half wouldn't
00:57
comradekingu
From my understanding you get uneven chromatic abbreviation if there is a mismatch
00:58
comradekingu
and/or other undesired effects
00:59
comradekingu
i think abbveration in plane, and different focal length if tilted
01:00
troy_s
intracube: HDRX is timed frames
01:00
troy_s
intracube: Hence temporal nightmare
01:00
troy_s
intracube: And combinatorial procrdd
01:00
troy_s
Process
01:01
troy_s
intracube: PLR is nothing more than a low level log (or whatever shape) curve estimate
01:01
troy_s
(Log is most logical.)
01:01
troy_s
(But has to be balanced against the limited knee points)
01:02
troy_s
intracube: So a highlight in HDRX is what you would use from the stopped down (under gained) frame, which means it lives in an alternate time slice
01:02
intracube
yep
01:02
troy_s
intracube: Hence temporal effects; it isn't part of the same frame, subject to nasty other things such as blur, position, etc.
01:03
comradekingu
Bertl: i think with the horizontal screws and plain PCB its going to flex
01:03
intracube
troy_s: they've made a feature out of it: http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/hdrx-high-dynamic-range-video (controlling motion blur section)
01:03
intracube
so now you can adjust mblur in post... sort of
01:03
troy_s
LOL
01:03
comradekingu
can i just say you people really are inspiring
01:03
troy_s
Ugh
01:04
intracube
:P
01:04
troy_s
comradekingu: Who? Bertl and se6astian|away ? Yep.
01:04
Bertl
comradekingu: the sensor is screwed against the lens-mount, so no flexing there
01:06
comradekingu
but the lens and sensor with respect to the body
01:08
comradekingu
I guess you could fine-machine a solution that doesnt allow for flex externally, but it could still have enough room to wiggle its way into problems long term
01:09
comradekingu
If the lens-mount and body are mechanically fixed together along with the PCB also being screwed to the body its easy to get warping from either not good enough clearances or screwing it together wrong
01:09
Bertl
yeah, well, if the lens-mount starts bending, then we have a problem, but I guess that is the same for every camera
01:11
comradekingu
Beefing up the PCB and letting that carry out to the body via the screws and having some clearance/padding between lensmount and body is the silly-simple solution
01:11
comradekingu
i think padding that also works as weather sealing is the design-win
01:12
comradekingu
Think of it like what people do when they gestalt an elephant
01:13
Bertl
I think there will be a huge number of designs we will be able to try out if everybody who has a 'good idea' or 'novel concept' will also actually build one :)
01:13
dmjnova
left the channel
01:16
comradekingu
Bertl: im just suggesting ideas based on what i saw in the video where the exploded view screwed together like magic
01:16
Bertl
and we appreciate the input
01:18
comradekingu
strike that, i think the easiest idea is to have the lens mount screw onto the body. With the attachment of the sensor to the lens mount holding the PCB up
01:18
Bertl
that's what is currently planned
01:18
comradekingu
Then the PCB can be dampened against..
01:19
comradekingu
well why not say that instead of making me suggest silly things ;)
01:19
comradekingu
twas a trap
01:20
comradekingu
Ok, im onboard with that, just the fan that irks me now
01:20
comradekingu
So there is a fan, its atop the camera, it starts raining and then?
01:21
comradekingu
Are there ventilation holes to push air out?
01:22
dmjnova
joined the channel
01:30
Bertl
the fan is an exhaust
01:30
Bertl
i.e. it will aid normal convection
01:30
Bertl
there are holes at the front and bottom which will allow fresh air to enter the body
01:31
Bertl
we plan to have a simple shifted grate on the top to prevent anything from entering the camera directly, but of course, if you put it into heavy rain, that won't help
01:33
comradekingu
if the holes dont have dust-covers that seems like a disaster if it draws dust into the same compartment the sensor is in
01:33
Bertl
the front of the sensor is sealed tight
01:34
Bertl
we had the same setup in the Alpha prototype, and no dust on the sensor, except when you opened up the lens system/mount
01:34
Bertl
and dust on the back of the sensor doesn't affect the image :)
01:34
wescotte
troy_s: have any more videos like that "Primer on Film and Digital Capture" you just linked?
01:35
Bertl
wescotte, troy_s: maybe add some links to the wiki on a 'Beginner' page or so?
01:35
Bertl
(given that the copyrightholder allows it)
01:42
intracube
troy_s: interesting Kodak video, thanks - even if some of the details in it is questionable
01:50
wescotte
taught me what FPN actually is. I thought it was a result of something else
01:54
wescotte
Thought a sensor just had a specific amount of error in it that you had to account. Then to get rid of it you made images under very controlled conditions and compared them with expected values to get your FPN.
01:56
intracube
wescotte: which bit of the video covered FPN?
02:00
wescotte
intracube: At about 12:30
02:00
Bertl
FPN btw, consists of two components, DSNU and PRNU
02:01
Bertl
the DSNU part can be easily corrected, the PRNU is a little trickier
02:01
Bertl
DSNU is the offset, PRNU is the gain related pattern
02:03
intracube
wescotte: ah yes, I missed that. so at least part of FPN is uneven leakage between photosites
02:03
intracube
which for some reason happens mostly across line/column boundaries
02:17
troy_s
wescotte: There are quite a few. Would need to dig.
02:17
troy_s
wescotte: Someone should add it to the wiki.
02:18
troy_s
wescotte: The aberrations (such as branches against sky) are quite fascinating and well explained.
02:19
troy_s
wescotte: It segues well into highlight recovery... Understanding that a well might be full, the typical vendors discard the entire pixel result.
02:20
troy_s
(Because you can't know what the value of green is for example, you cannot interpolate the proper color triplet.)
02:21
troy_s
If you do not, you end up with a filled sensel well in a sky region for example, and then semi-full R and B. R + B will end up pink.
02:21
troy_s
So the wise and easy path is to discard the whole pixel if a single well is full. (All Canon / Nikon cameras do this)
02:22
troy_s
You can however, do highlight recovery that will “see” those sensels. The color will be pink or cyan or yellow, but still data.
02:22
troy_s
So understanding sensors helps to make sense of much of this.
02:23
troy_s
(For those interested, I believe Mr. Savedes has serious highlight issues on Zodiac and they had to hire a firm to perform highlight recovery on a good deal of footage.)
02:24
troy_s
(dcraw has some interesting highlight recovery algorithms as well.)
02:24
Bertl
s/Savedes/Savides/
02:25
wescotte
troy_s: branches in the sky problem occur because of bayer patterns basically? Part of the pattern is the sky and part is a very narrow branch?
02:25
Bertl
do you have an overview of those algorithms somewhere?
02:26
wescotte
Zodiac filmed with Epics?
02:26
wescotte
Or was that still Red One time?
02:27
Bertl
the spatial difference between the different sensel contributing to a pixel cause many problems, we would be better off with sensors recording color in one place
02:27
troy_s
Bertl: Jerk.
02:28
troy_s
Zodiac was Viper wescotte
02:28
troy_s
Bertl: Dcraw explains them rather well in the docs. Code available.
02:28
wescotte
That video talks about active area on sensors and how they're way below films 100%. Genesis being like 30%.. Are they still that bad or are they starting to make the buffer wells on a layer below the photosites?
02:28
troy_s
Bertl: It throws out the citing pixel
02:29
troy_s
So for example... If second row second sensel, that resulting debayered pixel is tossed.
02:29
troy_s
wescotte: No what happens on branches is darkness against pinned regions.
02:30
troy_s
wescotte: The sky fills up green filter sensel first (green lives at a higher luminance than R and B)
02:30
wescotte
Wow, forgot Red One came out in like 2007
02:30
troy_s
wescotte: Once the sky fills up green, the dark tree branch lives say, beside it in sensels... Near black
02:30
troy_s
wescotte: The green sensel fills and voltage spills to adjacent sensels...
02:30
troy_s
wescotte: Red and blue because it is a Bayer... And guess what...
02:31
troy_s
Red and blue on near black looks magenta.
02:31
intracube
troy_s: are you talking about purple fringing?
02:32
wescotte
Are there any methods to detect overflow or prevent it?
02:32
troy_s
intracube: Yep ;)
02:32
intracube
there's another theory here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_fringing second and third para
02:32
wescotte
overflow wouldn't be that bad if it didn't spill into other wells.
02:32
troy_s
The most common spill colors magenta and cyan
02:32
troy_s
intracube: Two causes- spill and microlens refraction
02:32
troy_s
Almost always spill.
02:33
troy_s
If it is RGB fringe, that is lens aberrations
02:33
troy_s
Easy to diagnose.
02:33
intracube
IMO it's more plausible that most of the effect is caaused by a combination of lens design (zooms with wide range and or budget)
02:33
wescotte
What if you use really high frame rates and then sum them together to make your final exposure?
02:33
troy_s
Cyan and Magenta are most common because green is highest luminance, fills first, blue is second (70% in 709 for green, and 20% for blue. Approx)
02:34
troy_s
wescotte: Temporal nightmare.
02:34
Bertl
wescotte: talk to alexML :)
02:34
troy_s
Hence the rule (as Savides likely discovered, always underexpose)
02:34
wescotte
troy_s: can you elaborate?
02:34
troy_s
Digital. Film was opposite.
02:34
troy_s
Film always wanted a well etched negative.
02:35
troy_s
Digital is nightmare on high end.
02:35
troy_s
Better to risk noise floors than pin your sensor.
02:35
intracube
troy_s: the only time I've seen purple fringing on my DSLRs to any noticable degree is with a zoom lens with a wide range
02:35
wescotte
"pin your sensor"?
02:35
troy_s
intracube: Try the tree test.
02:35
troy_s
Pin = full bin.
02:36
troy_s
intracube: I can assure you L series glass in the sweet spot will do it. As will master primes.
02:36
wescotte
troy_s: so what's the temporal nightmare then?
02:36
troy_s
intracube: Just look at the color; if it appears subtractive (CMY) it is either sensel well spill or microlenses.
02:36
troy_s
wescotte: Basically different images
02:36
troy_s
Slightly offset.
02:37
wescotte
could it be harder to see on DSLRs because compression artifacts on branches already look crappy?
02:37
troy_s
You can probably speculate how difficult it is to blend different temporal images. If not, try your hand at an HDR bracket in Luminance with your DSLR. With a tree with leaves for example.
02:37
wescotte
troy_s: if the camera is moving you mean? if it's static it shouldn't matter even if the subject is moving...?
02:37
troy_s
Try it. ;)
02:37
intracube
troy_s: I'll do some tests tomorrow.
02:38
troy_s
Try a tree with leaves.
02:38
troy_s
intracube: If you know what it is and what happens, you can induce it easily.
02:38
intracube
but afaik I've seen hardly any fringing on either a 24mm prime or a sigma 10-20
02:38
intracube
but see it all the time on HD tv channels...
02:38
troy_s
intracube: Let your sky blow out against a tree with no fill... Thin branches are best because it introduces aliasing.
02:39
intracube
usually outside broadcast where ENG type zoom lenses are used
02:39
troy_s
intracube: If you understand the sensor layout as you do, you can easily find ways to trigger it.
02:39
intracube
troy_s: yeah, I'll certainly try it
02:39
wescotte
troy_s: you talking for video or just stills?
02:39
intracube
wescotte: either
02:39
troy_s
wescotte: Same issues.
02:40
troy_s
intracube: Bear in mind ENG cameras have smaller sensors and as such, denser matrices sometimes.
02:40
wescotte
If you have a series of images and the exposure time doesn't sum up greater than 1 frame length then it should just appear as natural motion blur should it not?
02:40
troy_s
wescotte: It does. Plenty of ugly HDRX footage has been done.
02:41
troy_s
You have to remember that the blend is not unifo
02:41
wescotte
HDRx is different though
02:41
intracube
troy_s: also ENG zoom lenses have a HUGE range it seems
02:41
troy_s
Uniform. You are always borrowing the highlights
02:41
wescotte
isn't it taking non uniform length exposures and combining them?
02:41
troy_s
So the temporal artifacts are almost always higher in perceptual contrast and more noticeable.
02:42
wescotte
say field 1 at 1/48th a second and field 2 at 1/12th a second to capture highlights?
02:43
wescotte
for a total of 5/48ths of a second which is why you get "different" motion blur?
02:43
troy_s
Bingo
02:43
troy_s
and couple that with a bright object against a darker one.
02:43
troy_s
.and try the HDR with Luminance.
02:44
troy_s
You will see the temporal axis exists on a bunch of things you don't immediately think of, the shutter, the objects, lighting
02:44
troy_s
Etc.
02:45
troy_s
(Tree with leaves is a nightmare)
02:45
wescotte
But if you took 5 fields at 1/240 of a second and them just summed them. it would be the same as taking 1/48th exposure except if the highlights didn't clip in the underexposed ones now you can recover them during the sum
02:46
troy_s
As Bertl said, Alex has a method that is interesting, but it has tradeoffs too
02:46
troy_s
PLS is ultimately the highest quality approach
02:46
troy_s
I have seen plenty of HDR and they all suck
02:46
wescotte
PLS is lossy :)
02:46
troy_s
Not really
02:46
wescotte
just because my eyes can't see it doesn't mean I like it :)
02:46
troy_s
It is data lossy, but not perceptual
02:47
troy_s
Well the Alexa and Sony both do it with SLog and AlexaLog
02:47
troy_s
So it is in good company.
02:47
troy_s
;)
02:47
wescotte
PLS seems like it could be problematic when grading
02:47
troy_s
Because the Alexa is a solid camera. As is the F65.
02:47
troy_s
Not really. Why do you say that?
02:47
troy_s
Log footage is a typical entry point for display referred grading
02:48
troy_s
(I would say defacto, but there are some colorists that start with a pure scale)
02:49
wescotte
PLS sounds like you could get artifacts if you push too hard with your contrast
02:49
wescotte
Grading isn't my field so I'm just thinking out loud here
02:50
wescotte
It's interesting stuff but I almost never do it
02:53
troy_s
You _can_ on exposure
02:53
troy_s
Or on a heavy secondary on a sky etc.
02:54
troy_s
But by and large, if the curve isn't too harsh and lands at reasonable levels (ala log) all is well... A great trade for some highlight latitude.
02:54
troy_s
Just enough for a decent roll off.
02:56
wescotte
Do you work in the industry btw?
03:03
troy_s
Been around film for a while.
03:05
wescotte
do production stuff too or mostly just post?
03:06
troy_s
Depends. If it is one of my projects, everything.
03:06
troy_s
Mostly production as a general rule.
03:07
wescotte
pretty much the same here. Done pretty much everything except write/direct.
03:07
troy_s
The nerd side of me has been with me since I was nine, so the color side I naturally took an interest in. Mostly from the arty farty need.
03:07
wescotte
Which I guess I have done too but it was class projects I didn't care about :)
03:08
troy_s
(Largely stemming from “This is screwed. Why is it screwed?”)
03:08
wescotte
heh
03:09
troy_s
I will say I have learned more about imaging since I became interested in color (pixels essentially) than I had in twenty years prior.
03:09
troy_s
Everything begins to make sense once down that path.
03:10
wescotte
I got the same kinda feeling once I started learning VFX stuff.
03:10
troy_s
Learned even more dickering around Bertl - the raw sensor data was an education
03:11
troy_s
Raw on commercial cameras is far from it
03:11
wescotte
I have yet to really touch anything raw. Shot a film on a Red One/Epic once but I didn't grade it so I never really touched the r3d files except to make proxies
03:12
troy_s
And that camera is bogus black box crap
03:12
wescotte
otherwise it's been DV/HDV and AVCHD stuff
03:12
troy_s
Even AVCHD with 422/420 has much to educate.
03:13
wescotte
heh, what's your beef with Red? :)
03:13
troy_s
Obfuscation and bogus marketing.
03:13
troy_s
Someone that has worshipped at the shrine of Jobs too long.
03:15
troy_s
As someone that went to an avant garde art school, I have a problem as an arty fatty fluffbag with not owning my negative.
03:15
troy_s
That is fundamentally problematic to me.
03:15
wescotte
what do you mean by not owning your negative?
03:15
troy_s
They encrypt the raw format.
03:16
wescotte
oh.. yeah wonder why they did that cuz it wasn't originally that way
03:16
troy_s
And you must use their tool to decode it.
03:16
troy_s
If that were to be revoked at some point... Well you understand.
03:16
wescotte
RedCine-X is a pretty decent tool though :)
03:17
wescotte
I've only used the camera on one project. Mostly because I generally never work on projects with any real budget
03:17
wescotte
However, I agree with you that openness is key. However, I wouldn't say any other companies are any better in that regard
03:18
troy_s
They did it because people were decoding it
03:18
troy_s
(All the magic was / is JPEG2000 frames)
03:18
troy_s
The issue there is that they worried someone was going (as a good imager would) peel back the curtain on Dr. Oz)
03:18
troy_s
Anyways... My personal feeling is that the backroom politicking in the name of selling a camera toy has done nothing for independent filmmakers and artists.
03:18
wescotte
My buddy thinks they did it because they were doing something illegal with software patents and didn't want to get caught
03:18
troy_s
Arri and Sony are both “better” actually
03:19
troy_s
Both in not playing the numbers game (Sony less so)
03:19
troy_s
And Arri in that they provide very good specifications and transforms on their raw data etc.
03:19
troy_s
Unlike R3D, which still refuses to provide IDTs for ACES for example
03:20
wescotte
I think Arri is in a completely different market than Red
03:20
wescotte
Sony kinda does both though
03:20
troy_s
(Tells you much about their desired audience)
03:20
troy_s
Sony is heavy. They have done some good things too, like embrace ACES etc.)
03:21
wescotte
dunno what ACES is
03:21
troy_s
And their cameras are solid.
03:21
troy_s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Color_Encoding_System
03:21
wescotte
or IDTs for that matter
03:22
troy_s
Odd... Just noticed they say 16 bit half floats for -65k to +65 k. Something wrong there. ;)
03:22
troy_s
Input Device Transform.
03:22
wescotte
they like DEEP blacks :)
03:23
troy_s
How you get from an input device to working space
03:23
troy_s
No such thing as black. ;)
03:23
wescotte
hah
03:23
troy_s
That is actually for upper end latitude largely.
03:23
troy_s
33 stops you could anchor middle grey at 0
03:23
troy_s
0.18
03:23
troy_s
And go sixteen stops up
03:24
wescotte
that kinda makes sense
03:25
troy_s
0.36, 0.72, 1.4, 2.8, 5.6, 11, 22, 44, 88, 176, 340, 680, 1360
03:25
troy_s
So your upper bound high value in scene referred is about 1360.0
03:26
troy_s
Lower if you anchor your base middle grey lower.
03:26
wescotte
floats aren't uniformly distributed either I think
03:26
troy_s
Huh?
03:27
troy_s
Float data is if scene linear.
03:28
wescotte
I dunno the exact figures but something like there are 10,000 unique values between 0 and 1 but only 10,000 between 1 and 2
03:28
wescotte
that sorta thing
03:28
troy_s
Oh you mean bits... IIRC the mantissa and exponents are uniform
03:29
wescotte
I dunno it's been a long time since I had to deal with them but I could have sworn I remember reading a few articles talking about that sorta thing
03:30
troy_s
Not certain, but quite sure the bit depth divides down to a consistent mantissa and exponent.
03:30
troy_s
Sure Wikipedia would have more.
03:30
troy_s
Of course, if you are speaking of a non-linear image such as log, absolutely.
03:35
wescotte
Maybe that's why they limit it to +- 65k cuz it looks like the distrubition takes off around there or maybe that's even the limit of a 16bit float
03:36
troy_s
6 days left at 2.5ish thousand euro per day
03:36
troy_s
16 bit float seems odd to be referenced in integer.
03:36
wescotte
yup +-65k is the limit of 16bit float
03:37
troy_s
What mantissa on 16 bit float...
03:37
wescotte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-precision_floating-point_format
03:37
wescotte
5bit and 10bit
03:39
troy_s
1 sign, 5 exponent, 11 significand
03:40
troy_s
5.96 x 10^-8
03:43
troy_s
Subnormal. Ergh.
03:46
troy_s
Anyways... Should head off.
03:46
troy_s
Great chat wescotte - hope to see you around here.
03:46
wescotte
I'll be hanging around :)
03:47
wescotte
nite
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05:09
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
05:09
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
06:08
danieel
i think the non-uniform distribution of values is not a problem- its sort of a lut/log type of mapping
06:08
danieel
(higher values get greater distance, while keeping low values more precise)
06:09
danieel
but the sign is unnecessary :)
06:28
regnirps
danieel: Hi. I wondered if the sign is just old FP habits. Plus the wiki page has a CIE diagram that should have a triangle in it - but doesn't.
06:29
wescotte
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06:29
danieel
if the fp16 is a standard one, then this is the datatype used on gfx cards
06:29
danieel
and there the sign makes sense
06:29
regnirps
The floating point is truly log. The distance between consecutive values is a first order difference equation with exponential solution. So, log.
06:30
danieel
the variation in highlights is much less visible... well, unless you shoot snow or weddings :)
06:30
danieel
and want to grade it to extreme
06:30
regnirps
I'm trying to picture exactly how it is mapped to each increase in exponent is a stop.
06:31
danieel
i think it is partially linear
06:31
regnirps
The 1024 values per f-stop makes sense wit the 10 bit mantissa.
06:31
danieel
mantisa changes the slope/gain
06:31
danieel
ehm, exponent
06:31
danieel
and the mantisa is then just linear within that piece
06:32
regnirps
Yeah. It is easier that I thought. I forgot f-stop derives from linearizing the ratio of the diameter of the hole to the area.
06:33
regnirps
So, f-stop light chnages double or halve but diameter goes as the f-number.
06:34
regnirps
I recall some old caeras had "T-Stops" to get rid of the 3.5, 4.8, and all that. Just 1, 2, 3 ...
06:35
regnirps
Maybe it was 1, 2, 4, 8, which would be mroe intuitive.
06:37
regnirps
So, do you know, is this camera going to produce scene-linear with some meta-data about the sensor's primary coords? Maybe many optons given open source.
07:02
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
07:04
se6astian
good morning
07:23
Even
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Even
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08:52
daFred
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08:53
daFred
good morning!
09:00
se6astian
hello!
09:02
daFred
Sebastian: for the active Canon EF Mount you are thinking of the IMS from P+S technik? Their mechanical adapter costs 600EUR without electronics, so I think it's not this one...
09:20
daFred
we should keep in mind the Sony E Mount http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_E-mount there are also active adapters for the EF Mount for not so much money!
09:22
daFred
but it's not an open standard ... :-((
09:28
se6astian
IMS is too expensive for the Beta
09:28
se6astian
we will create the mount ourself if we reach the stretch goal
09:29
se6astian
P+S technik actually sells an active canon ef mount already
09:29
se6astian
for 2200€ :)
09:29
se6astian
basically the price of the Super35 Beta
09:41
daFred
if you by two mounts you get one beta for free...
09:43
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09:57
daFred
Has anybody thougt about the licencing for the lens mount? Is there a open standard mount?
10:03
daFred
technically the Sony E-Mount looks good for a universal Mount but we have to check the licensing. The is a wide range of mounts out there ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_mount
10:51
se6astian
if you find information please add it to the wiki
10:58
aombk
what? arri amira upscales internally to output 4k?
11:09
se6astian
yes
11:24
aombk
maybe its their answer to the pixel greedy shooters
11:25
mars_
maybe the axiom should upscale to 8k :P
11:25
mars_
gotta win that pixel race
11:26
aombk
axiom will upscale at 8k externally
11:26
aombk
maybe you should add that to the campaign
11:27
aombk
8k resolution (upscaled externally)
11:28
aombk
eoshd is missiong all the fun
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11:34
se6astian
:)
11:34
se6astian
upscale to any resolution you like - thats the ultimate freedom
11:34
se6astian
with our new 320x240 image sensors!
11:41
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11:49
aombk
with the sophisticated nearest neighbor technology?
11:50
__anton__
Hi guys, could you pls remind me which tools you use for 3d modelling? I'd like to open the .idw and .ipt models on GitHub and possibly create a couple of rough sketches to see what you think of a couple of design ideas
11:54
daFred
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11:57
daFred
.iam .ipr .ipt are Inventor files
11:57
daFred
.idw not .ipr
12:01
se6astian
yes inventor
12:04
__anton__
Inventor - is it a commercial product cisting big $$$?
12:04
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12:06
daFred
everybody welcome to design it with openSCAD!
12:07
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12:13
se6astian
yes if you can find me a good open alternative I am happy to use it :)
12:15
dmjnova
perhaps it would be good to have conversions of the inventor files at the least se6astian
12:21
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
12:21
Bertl
morning folks!
12:23
Bertl
se6astian: brl-cad is nice if you don't like descriptive cad like OpenSCAD
12:26
se6astian
checking it out
12:44
daFred
I think we have to use a professional 3d CAD, otherwise the interface to the manufacturer is not so easy. But in the mind of openness we should give it a try.
12:45
daFred
maybe FreeCAD?
12:58
se6astian
bbl
12:58
se6astian
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15:00
Bertl
welcome gnufan!
15:04
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15:25
troy_s
se6astian|away: Nice post on PLS.
15:26
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15:39
gnufan
hello Bertl, i've got here from the magic lantern ML, i hope the indiegogo campaign will meet the target, apertus deserves it.
15:41
Bertl
great! maybe you can give use some information what make AXIOM interesting for you?
15:41
Bertl
*makes
15:53
troy_s
Bertl: Where were the knees put in on the demo?
15:54
Bertl
no idea, se6astian will know
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17:09
Bertl
wb aquarat!
17:31
intracube
hi
17:33
intracube
Bertl: have you got any idea if the Gamma will be similar in size to the Beta or bigger?
17:39
Bertl
I'd say from the features planned so far it just needs to be bigger :)
17:51
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17:54
dmjnova
intracube: I might imagine the sensor head/main unit not necessarily being bigger
17:56
dmjnova
However, assuming the modular concept holds, the total size with recording unit, controls, display, etc. would need to be bigger than just the beta
17:56
dmjnova
a better comparison there would be the beta plus atomos recorder
17:57
intracube
dmjnova: with a typical setup IMO something the size of the Arri Alexa would be good
17:57
intracube
even if it's actually several different modules (head end/recording + io/battery)
17:58
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
17:58
intracube
one advantage of a bigger basic camera is the option of using larger fans, more internal volume for passive heatsinks and addon modules later down the road
17:58
dmjnova
Yeah, and if it ends up much smaller for similar capabilities, one can always put it in a bigger box and route the controls/battery/etc. for optimal ergonomics and weight
17:59
intracube
dmjnova: yeah, but cooling it might be difficult
17:59
dmjnova
Not if your basic head has good conductivity
18:00
intracube
you don't necessarily want to conduct the heat directly to the external case
18:00
intracube
if you're working in a hot country, the case might end up rather hotter than the components you're trying to cool
18:00
dmjnova
no I mean there will be a "head module" inside the larger camera body
18:00
intracube
oh ok
18:01
intracube
did this quick mockup: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=78031
18:02
dmjnova
the head module would be usable alone (research platform, tiny spaces), but could also be put inside say a shoulder mount case with recorder, battery, controls, viewfinder, etc.
18:02
intracube
larger alexa-style form with 4inch/10cm fan at the bottom pushing air up, helped by convection
18:03
dmjnova
I would hope to avoid needing a fan.
18:04
dmjnova
That said having one is probably a good idea
18:04
intracube
I think you'd need one, even if it's running at a low speed most of the time
18:04
intracube
and coupled with decent passive heatsinks like: http://www.pcper.com/images/reviews/286/4-Trio-of-Coolers.jpg
18:04
intracube
it could be very quiet.
18:04
dmjnova
especially if we can still make the electronics air/watertight
18:05
dmjnova
blow air over a heat sink with good conduction to the sensor
18:05
intracube
I went to some lengths to make my new computer quiet. the cpu fan is oversized and conneced to a jumbo heatsink
18:05
intracube
you really can't hear it, only the movement of air. even with your ear right next to it
18:06
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18:06
intracube
dmjnova: yep, exactly
18:06
eduardo
changed nick to: Guest4420
18:07
intracube
designing a good cooling setup isn't that difficult but can make a massive difference to noise output
18:08
dmjnova
for one of my purposes I'll just mount 6 large fans spinning really fast over it :P
18:09
intracube
dmjnova: what purpose would that be
18:09
intracube
?
18:10
dmjnova
...the fans are propellers
18:10
dmjnova
cooling would be a side effect of flying
18:10
intracube
quadcopter?
18:10
intracube
lol
18:13
Bertl
welcome eduardo/Guest4420!
18:14
Bertl
intracube: if you actually do some cooling tests, we'll promote you to chief of cooling :)
18:18
intracube
heh :)
18:19
Bertl
while it was a joke, it has a serious core, we will need to identify folks who are interested in helping with various tasks, and I think those will be the ones getting early access to Beta hardware as well
18:21
intracube
Bertl: absolutely. if I bite the bullet and get the camera, I'll certainly look into test like this
18:21
se6astian
troy_s: Unfortunately I did not save how I set the kneepoints for this particular shot
18:23
intracube
ruggedisation/protection from heat & dust is going to be important
18:24
Bertl
if you use a proper fan, you can just turn it up to 100% and it will blow out all the dust :)
18:25
intracube
Bertl: it usually needs a bit more force than that :)
18:25
intracube
compressed air can or bicycle pump do a good job
18:26
comradekingu
Are there any drawings of the cooling to look at
18:26
comradekingu
Graphene might have a use in this sort of application
18:28
Bertl
do you have good sources for Graphene sheets and materials?
18:28
comradekingu
i think its samsung that produces them
18:30
comradekingu
trying to find
18:32
comradekingu
http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/15/panasonic-make-a-10-micron-thick-carbon-phone-heatsink/
18:32
comradekingu
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/EYG-A091203V/P14467-ND/2499990
18:32
comradekingu
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/T68-1A-120-90-0.04/1168-1753-ND/3460910
18:33
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18:34
comradekingu
panasonic, sorry
18:34
tyrone_
@comradekingu it's PGS from Panasonic and in the wiki :-) https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Cooling
18:36
Guest4420
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18:37
tyrone_
irc archive has quiet a delay :-)
18:38
Bertl
has it? the logs should be instantaneous?
18:39
comradekingu
tyrone_: How about cutting a hole in the graphene, then placing it flush around the edges of the front side of the sensor. Maybe in between the lensring since that is fixed in place out of the box
18:39
Bertl
you usually do not need/want to cool the front of the sensor
18:40
comradekingu
I think graphene only transfer from edge to edge. perpendicularly (on the sheet itself, its something like 20-40 W/m-K
18:40
comradekingu
So more like an insulator there
18:41
comradekingu
How many W does the sensor and fpga produce?
18:41
tyrone_
i think the best way is the try and error concept. get a package and test it out :-)
18:41
comradekingu
im thinking the biggest issue is transporting it away so that it doesnt affect image quality
18:41
Bertl
they do not produce any power, they consume power :)
18:41
comradekingu
yes, but how much of it is dissapated as heat
18:42
Bertl
most of it as with all electronics
18:42
comradekingu
cyclone 3 from altera fpga uses 250mW, that isnt an issue
18:42
Bertl
the sensor can take up to 2W, the FPGA up to 20W IIRC
18:43
comradekingu
It cant be 20 W, that sounds absurd
18:43
comradekingu
http://www.altera.com/devices/fpga/cyclone3/overview/power/cy3-power.html
18:43
comradekingu
Is the parallella board being used as fpga, or?
18:44
Bertl
assume the MicroZed for now, the Parallella gets quite hot
18:45
Bertl
the 250mW is static power consumption, i.e. that is what the FPGA consumes if it does nothing
18:46
Bertl
in the Beta, the FPGA has to move and process huge amounts of data, so there will be significantly more power consumption
18:46
Bertl
(regardless of the choice of FPGA)
18:47
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gdims
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19:10
gdims
Hello, how could I contact Bertl?
19:10
gdims
Oh, got it.
19:13
Bertl
welcome gdims!
19:29
comradekingu
back again. Is the FPGA in its own module, or in the same housing as the sensor for the camera?
19:29
comradekingu
Im thinking the FPGA could possibly be mounted with the chip coupled to the back of the camera metal body
19:29
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19:30
g3gg0
hi there
19:30
Bertl
wb g3gg0!
19:31
Bertl
comradekingu: read up on the irc log, we had this discussion last night, even with some drawings
19:31
g3gg0
ah, hi bertl :) just digged through some of your photos on 13thfloor server
19:31
g3gg0
alpha/beta shots
19:31
comradekingu
Bertl: thanks
19:31
Bertl
g3gg0: good! comradekingu: np
19:32
comradekingu
Seeing the mockup. My initial reaction is that the fan should not be designed in
19:32
g3gg0
you are doing all the hw development?
19:33
Bertl
most of it at the moment (at least electronics)
19:33
comradekingu
Instead facilitate mounting a 80x80mm fan by putting some screwholes in. That way its optional, and you dont have to carry negative fanspace around if you opt out
19:34
Bertl
the fan is a 'clip on' in the current Beta Design
19:34
comradekingu
intracube: the ambient temperature inside a device is always higher than the outside, that holds true even in hotter countries. It would be less effective, but effective nontheless to couple to the case
19:35
intracube
"<comradekingu> intracube: the ambient temperature inside a device is always higher than the outside"
19:36
intracube
ambient air temperature, yep. but the temperature of the case might be significantly hotter than the air temperature if it's in direct sunlight
19:37
intracube
so if the intention is to use the case to dissipate heat, it might not work so well
19:37
comradekingu
still cooler than the chips though
19:37
g3gg0
@bertl: do you have some schematics or drawings that point me towards how the storage module will be designed? especially i am interested in how much bandwith there is for e.g. raw video recording.
19:37
comradekingu
You would be hard pressed getting a white metal body over 60 degrees
19:38
Bertl
g3gg0: there is no storage module design at the moment
19:38
intracube
comradekingu: maybe not. example; some light coloured concrete in my garden showed as (IIRC) 40°c this summer
19:39
comradekingu
intracube: if you run into extreme environments you could mount a peltier-element to the actual case
19:39
intracube
(with a laser temperature gun)
19:39
comradekingu
intracube: yes, but it wont be 80+ degrees. At which point i imagine the system would shut itself off
19:40
intracube
and I live in the UK. a black camera somewhere like the Mediterranean or Africa would likely get -really- hot
19:40
comradekingu
There are limits to how extreme environments it can work in
19:40
comradekingu
intracube: you wouldnt get the black model in africa. Meditarranian tops out at 50
19:40
intracube
comradekingu: doesn't peltier technology need a lot of power to work?
19:41
comradekingu
intracube: yes, and additional cooling on the hot side
19:41
comradekingu
intracube: im not saying filming in horg chezk and fezzan is easy
19:41
g3gg0
bertl: regarding the possible raw recording - if someone designed a storage module, with e.g. space for two CF cards, how much dedicated bandwidth from the zynq to this module will be possible?
19:42
comradekingu
If you can afford to bring a camera into those regions you can afford extra cooling
19:42
intracube
comradekingu: so wouldn't any peltier cooling be impractical running of the camera battery?
19:42
comradekingu
intracube: yes, but that is for super extreme conditions, like filming in a sauna
19:43
Bertl
g3gg0: on the Beta, you basically have 20 differential pairs (40 IOs) between the zynq and the high speed shield
19:44
g3gg0
bertl: high speed shield is the one with HDMI ports on it?
19:44
Bertl
the HDMI shield will be one of them, yes
19:44
comradekingu
intracube: i live in norway, it can get -30 in my city, that is also extreme
19:44
intracube
comradekingu: another option might be to accept the external surface of the camera -will- get hot and instead work at insulating the internals from the case somehow
19:45
intracube
comradekingu: true, it needs to be ruggedised at both ends of the temp scale
19:45
comradekingu
intracube: that sounds a lot like an oven
19:45
intracube
well, an inside-out-oven maybe :P
19:45
Bertl
let's build an AXIOM furnace :)
19:45
comradekingu
yes, but the original problem was heat produced from within
19:46
intracube
inside of camera stays cool, but heats up the whole world :)
19:46
intracube
comradekingu: yes, but that's one part of the bigger problem :)
19:47
comradekingu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity for reading
19:48
intracube
ISTR some director complaining about modern cinema equipment that failed on a shoot in extreme cold weather
19:48
intracube
(cine film cameras).
19:48
comradekingu
lets say i want a fan, how about i unscrew the hotshoe or top plate and mount one?
19:48
intracube
in the end he relied on his own (old) cine camera that was decades old
19:49
intracube
so it's an issue that isn't given as much consideration these days as it should
19:49
comradekingu
Fans arent really ideal for the application, since they produce noise.
19:50
comradekingu
intracube: winter is fast approaching, i can beta test real winter conditions
19:50
comradekingu
a lot of equipment cold-bugs, where it doesnt work reliably if introduced to sub zero temperatures
19:51
comradekingu
The difference between a CPU being usable for extreme overclockers or not
19:53
comradekingu
If we follow the principle of "the bigger the lens, the more pro the person behind it" it makes sense to couple the rectangular sensor area to the circular lens mount
19:54
comradekingu
heh
19:54
comradekingu
Also im thinking some knurling of the outer metal frame will double as increased surface area to dissapate heat
19:54
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20:02
g3gg0
for extreme thermal conditions: housing with internal chained long holes and a festo 6mm connector for water flowing through, linked with a peltier cooling module using the well known blue festo tubes :)
20:04
intracube
!
20:05
g3gg0
fans blow air. air contains dirt. extreme conditions often also mean moist, dust or sand are in the air. not one of that is that good for the sensor and circuitry :)
20:06
comradekingu
its not really a lot of heat that needs to move, and a waterblock coupled indirectly to the heat is less effective than getting it away with graphene
20:07
g3gg0
the best would be passive heat dissipation to the housing anyway
20:07
g3gg0
yeah
20:07
comradekingu
you could waterproof the seams and fill the whole thing up with silicone oil
20:07
g3gg0
uh :)
20:08
comradekingu
that isnt actually such a bad idea
20:09
g3gg0
as my main job is in the automotive domain, especially ECU development, i am used to stick to passive-cooling only :)
20:09
g3gg0
metal!
20:09
comradekingu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cooling#Liquid_submersion_cooling
20:10
comradekingu
g3gg0: its still passive
20:10
se6astian
Learn everything* you need to know about the AXIOM Beta in under 1 minute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyFRMgi6CUQ
20:10
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20:12
g3gg0
comradekingu: yep, its still passive. but in automotive domain passive means not even a liquid is moving :)
20:12
g3gg0
even heatpipes are avoided
20:13
g3gg0
but thats mainly due to the price
20:15
g3gg0
@se6astian: cool video
20:15
comradekingu
se6astian: isnt that video very bad for people with epilepsy
20:15
g3gg0
had the same thought :)
20:18
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20:20
g3gg0
se6astian: super35 3rd batch got removed?
20:22
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20:23
Bertl
g3gg0: LOL
20:23
Bertl
thanks for making my point regarding 'featured'
20:25
g3gg0
;)
20:26
Bertl
comradekingu: maybe, but I guess we can put a disclaimer somewhere in the description
20:28
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20:31
comradekingu
I think more information about what a osi open source camera is, and the people behind it, would be a minute better spent in terms of explaining the axiom beta
20:32
Bertl
I guess the folks who know open source do not need an explanation, and for those who do not know/value open source a minute wouldn't suffice ... but YMMV
20:37
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20:39
comradekingu
Bertl: even if i do, i dont know everything about how it applies to videocameras, since you are the expert that is on you to convey
20:40
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20:41
Bertl
comradekingu: we have a page which should explain this in detail, sec, looking for the url
20:41
Bertl
https://apertus.org/opensource
20:42
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20:42
comradekingu
im only adressing the video
20:42
Bertl
I agree that we might need to emphasize on the consequences this has for something like a movie camera
20:43
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20:44
comradekingu
on the site, i think changing "open source" to "freedom" means more to more people
20:45
comradekingu
i can help with a rewrite if you want?
20:45
comradekingu
To bring the verbosity down a notch
20:46
Bertl
feel free to work on that, but I think we should not change too much at once, so no guarantees that se6astian will adapt it right away
20:47
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20:47
comradekingu
Bertl: it says open source doesnt tie in with production and sustainability, which is true, but free software certainly does.
20:48
comradekingu
A camera i can build and work on is more sustainable than one which has planned obsolescence built in
20:49
comradekingu
And the ability to check and do something about it is the difference
20:51
comradekingu
i love the pictograms
20:51
Bertl
I totally agree there
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21:25
se6astian
time for bed
21:25
se6astian
good night!
21:26
Bertl
sleep well!
21:28
se6astian
thanks
21:28
se6astian
you too
21:28
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
21:37
gnufan
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21:47
Bertl
off for a nap ... bbl
21:47
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
22:06
troy_s
se6astian|away: Amazing work nevertheless. I would immediately suggest color and transfer curve / PLS work as soon as things are capable.
22:07
troy_s
intracube: digital cameras bring a whole new set of problems compared to film. Rain bags overheat the things quickly etc.
22:09
intracube
troy_s: that sort of says that a lot of designs use the external case to dissipate heat
22:10
troy_s
Just huge vents
22:10
troy_s
Hence plastic bag = badness
22:11
troy_s
Not an easy set of design constraints. I would bet on liquid cooling to arrive very soon. Quiet pumps, and very effective.
22:11
troy_s
(Allows to potentially move the radiator too I suppose)
22:12
intracube
would've thought that manufacturers would have designed cameras with this in mind
22:12
intracube
like, only have vents on the side or bottom
22:12
troy_s
They try
22:12
intracube
and have custom made jackets to match
22:12
intracube
troy_s: I sees :)
22:12
troy_s
Arri has a huge amount of experience. Their results are hard earned, but still challenging.
22:13
troy_s
Arguably Arri is the most experienced imager in the market currently, until Panavision gets back in (if)
22:14
troy_s
Those two eclipse all others combined with their in-field feedback experience.
22:16
intracube
was the last digital camera from Panavision the Genesis?
22:23
daFred
was the 3rd batch of the Super35 really removed or was this a mistake? Just the Four Thirds left?
22:25
daFred
I think we need the Super35 batch in the hot phase...
22:28
troy_s
intracube: Yes. Sony had a peace pact with Panavision. As soon as it expired, Sony released the F35, which for all intents and purposes was the Genesis Mark II.
22:28
troy_s
Panavision paid the price for the shortcut, while Arri was taking their knocks learning their tech.
22:28
troy_s
(D20, D21)
22:28
troy_s
Arri played the long game. Panavision played short.
22:29
troy_s
Sony had all the tech, and no in-field experience. That small partnership was a light-year leap for them.
22:29
intracube
and now ARRI have this: http://www.arrirentalgroup.com/alexa65/
22:30
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22:31
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22:31
intracube
same height as vistavision/still 35mm, but 50% wider
22:31
intracube
o.O
22:31
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daFred
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22:39
troy_s
intracube: They are killing it in cinema lights too. The M series is mind numbing.
22:40
troy_s
intracube: Isn't it basically vistavision gate?
22:41
intracube
as I say, same height but 50% wider
22:41
intracube
giving 2.11 AR
22:42
troy_s
42.2 x 23.8 before open gate
22:42
troy_s
(open gate is 52.5 x 23)
22:42
troy_s
Sorry
22:42
intracube
hmm?
22:42
troy_s
54.1 x 25.6 open gate
22:43
troy_s
but the 1.78 dimensions are 42.2x23.8
22:43
troy_s
basically 35mm film
22:43
troy_s
their 1.5:1 mode is VistaVision
22:43
troy_s
(35.6x23.8)
22:43
intracube
yep, as you have to crop the width to get 1.78 or 1.85
22:44
troy_s
I think they have a series of Hasselblad glass refits for the 65
22:44
intracube
but 2.39:1 can make use full width
22:44
troy_s
And they will most certainly be working on in secret a set of Master Primes for it.
22:44
troy_s
Guranteed.
22:44
troy_s
There is no 2.39 in 65 methinks. Your native format is that open gate version.
22:44
troy_s
2.11
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22:45
troy_s
VistaVision for the record is 37.7x25.0
22:45
intracube
there will still be a desire to shoot 2.39 format with the cam I guess
22:45
intracube
even if they capture full aperture
22:45
troy_s
Not really. You have to remember that 2.39 became an aesthetic due to anamorphic.
22:45
intracube
you think 2.39's days are numbered?!
22:46
comradekingu
Ok, i think im in the groove on rewriting the open source documentation, does anyone want to see what ive done so far?
22:46
intracube
but, but all the hipsters LOVE it!
22:46
troy_s
As an anamorphic format.
22:46
troy_s
I love it.
22:46
intracube
:P
22:46
troy_s
But I love it because of the depth of field, and 65 sort of outflanks that issue.
22:46
troy_s
The depth of field on a 65 mm Alexa with a master prime that say, goes down to 1.5?
22:46
intracube
troy_s: you like anamorphic lenses?
22:46
troy_s
Egads... first assistant nightmare but wow.
22:47
troy_s
Yes I love them. Aside from the physical side that sort of sucks (the image quality is rather crap on most breeds until you hit 5.6)
22:47
troy_s
(and the breathing and the blah blah)
22:47
intracube
they can be tricky to shoot with.....
22:47
troy_s
But again, the 65 (and I'll bet an organ on Arri working frantically on Master Primes for them) is a whole new breed potentially.
22:47
intracube
weight, minimum focus distance, barrel distortion on many lenses wider than 50mm :)
22:48
intracube
but I'm spouting just as a person watching movies shot in the format
22:48
intracube
never held an anamorphic lens
22:48
troy_s
"utilize state-of-the-art optics from Hasselblad, "
22:48
troy_s
:)
22:48
troy_s
Gurantee that was a short term need.
22:49
intracube
troy_s: I've never seen a definitive answer to why people have historically shot anamorphic 35mm
22:49
intracube
vs matted super35
22:49
troy_s
intracube: More resolution and aesthetic difference.
22:49
troy_s
(See how they flare, bokeh, etc.)
22:49
intracube
but is there more resolution when you factor in the lens issues?
22:50
troy_s
More film resolution.
22:50
troy_s
Rather like "Extended" DVDs.
22:50
troy_s
Use the full 1.33, then scale.
22:50
intracube
looking at bluray remasters of anamorphic films there seem to be rather a lot of soft lenses out there
22:50
troy_s
Of course. But that's aesthetic qualia.
22:50
troy_s
Hell, one of the greatest shooters of all time, Matt Mahurin, used broken lens elements.
22:50
aombk
see wikipedia for reasons that led to anamorphicanamorphic
22:51
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22:51
intracube
troy_s: but the benefit in utilising larger area of films tock seems to be unwound by anamorphic quality
22:51
dmjnova
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22:51
troy_s
Yes and no. You can't get that aesthetic otherwise.
22:51
troy_s
(on the Matt Mahurin front, here's a masterwork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwEsPizQVNc)
22:51
troy_s
(You can see the broken optics in there)
22:53
intracube
yeah. but a highly stylised music video is a special case.
22:54
troy_s
Bah. Everything is highly stylized. Until it isn't.
22:54
intracube
but the examples given; greater use of neg area, finer grain structure -seem- to conflict with other factors
22:54
troy_s
At that point it is vernacular. See: Jump Cut.
22:54
intracube
aombk: ^ my last comment
22:54
troy_s
Again, it's not base metrics.
22:54
troy_s
It's a combination of things.
22:55
troy_s
Dammit. I removed the Apertus raw file.
22:55
troy_s
I need it.
22:56
aombk
what other factors?
22:57
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22:57
intracube
aombk: again to restate, I haven't shot anamorphic, only read about the format (so anyone feel free to correct)
22:58
intracube
anamorphics don't seem to open up as much as spherical lenses, which means when shooting in low light you'd need to use a faster filmstock with anamorphic, which means in practice you don't benefit from a perceived reduction in grain through the larger negative area used
23:00
intracube
other comments say anamorphics give an increase in resolution, but the lens artefacts seem to fly against that much of the time
23:00
intracube
http://images2.static-bluray.com/reviews/10562_13_1080p.jpg
23:00
intracube
http://images4.static-bluray.com/reviews/10562_19_1080p.jpg
23:00
intracube
look at harold ramis' and bill murray's heads + the stack of books in the bg
23:04
intracube
there seems to be a greater variation in lens quality compared to standard lenses
23:04
intracube
not all anamorphic films show these effects - I guess a good DoP will know how to minimise them
23:06
dmjnova
also, the lighting used and the film stock will make a difference
23:06
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23:08
dmjnova
I could imagine the anamorphic optic eating a fair bit of light
23:09
troy_s
intracube: You have to remember sir, those anamorphic lenses are decades old.
23:09
troy_s
intracube: Not exactly fair to compare against say, a Master Prime or a Cooke 5.
23:09
aombk
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aombk
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23:09
intracube
true, but even compared to films shot with standards lenses from the same era
23:09
troy_s
The bottom line is that there are aesthetic qualia to anamorphic that can't be simply broken down to perceptual sharpness, or vignetting, or whatever. It all combines to an aesthetic really.
23:10
intracube
troy_s: yup
23:10
troy_s
It is neither 'good' nor 'bad', and any metric is anchored in such an ideological spin.
23:10
troy_s
Hell... rather interesting works have been crafted on the Fisher Price cassete video machine.
23:10
intracube
aombk: got your PM, I'll be around this weekend
23:11
troy_s
It's just a unique 'thing', and will remain as such. That said, the Alexa 65 brings much more to the table in ways that haven't previously been accessible.
23:11
dmjnova
Yeah, I do find the anamorphic bokeh effect interesting to look at
23:11
intracube
troy_s: from an artistic view - true, no good or bad. but from a technical, most certainly yes
23:12
troy_s
Rubbish.
23:12
troy_s
It's Yin / Yang
23:12
troy_s
Show me how to get the same depth of field on the same film gate?
23:12
troy_s
Oh you can't.
23:12
troy_s
So you trade off.
23:12
dmjnova
Actually Blender just added anamorphic bokeh to their rendering engine
23:12
troy_s
Show me how to get the same focus blur shapes. Oh you can't.
23:12
troy_s
It's _always_ an issue of qualia.
23:13
intracube
^ well, actually
23:13
dmjnova
oval shaped aperture?
23:13
intracube
try filming through an oval disk in front of the camera lens
23:13
aombk
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23:13
intracube
when I tried on my DSLR it seemed to give bokeh pretty close to real anamorphics
23:14
dmjnova
interestingly that works in blender's cycles renderer too
23:14
troy_s
Perceptual sharpness even is a questionable thing. Heck, why on earth do companies exist making soft filter glass?
23:14
troy_s
intracube: You aren't paying attention then. The circle of confusion is oblong.
23:14
troy_s
Totally and radically different.
23:14
intracube
dmjnova: yeap, the anamorphic blur option is a new cycles feature :)
23:15
dmjnova
well, it will be a new cycles feature officially any day now
23:15
troy_s
No way in hell to get that on a DSLR.
23:15
troy_s
dmjnova: What the hell has happened to Novacut? Abort and start anew hopefully?
23:15
dmjnova
troy_s: Yeah, you're right about the circle of confusion being a bit different with shaped bokeh
23:16
dmjnova
it's still proceeding, mostly on the dmedia end atm
23:16
intracube
troy_s: can you link an example showing the effect?
23:18
troy_s
Ugh.
23:18
troy_s
Screw dmedia
23:18
troy_s
Egads. I wish I had twelve of the hours of coding that has been sunk into that project.
23:19
troy_s
There's such an _easy_ entry point path that avoids all of the depths of complexity very few see when engaging in an NLE project.
23:19
troy_s
intracube: Hold.
23:19
troy_s
http://www.davidmullenasc.com/anamorphicbokeh1.jpg
23:19
troy_s
intracube: Those are spherical blurs.
23:20
troy_s
The circles of confusion elongate counter to the flare axis.
23:20
troy_s
dmjnova: Of all the issues image makers have to solve, backing up media is _not_ one of them.
23:20
troy_s
I find it utterly saddening.
23:21
intracube
dmedia?
23:21
intracube
troy_s: ^
23:21
dmjnova
asset management system behind Novacut
23:21
troy_s
intracube: You can see it here too http://www.filmbrute.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bladerunner.png
23:21
dmjnova
for the real-time collaboration
23:22
troy_s
Collaboration. Yikes.
23:25
g3gg0
left the channel
23:28
dmjnova
Don't worry, there'll be some user visible Novacut stuff soon
23:29
dmjnova
And I suspect one of the backend components will end up useful to the Axiom
23:30
comradekingu
The appologetic approach to communicating free software projects really puzzles me, i see so much of it
23:31
comradekingu
There is nothing questionable about doing things the right way
23:32
comradekingu
I think the curse of knowledge plays a part, someone who has no empathy with the user is trying to communicate things they take for granted, so they get caught up in small details
23:35
troy_s
comradekingu: "Right" is rubbish ideology.
23:35
intracube
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QaoVVuZWlhk/VC8yiVJMGnI/AAAAAAAAA6I/aGmZmSTNYMg/w821-h295-no/bokeh.jpg
23:35
troy_s
In design, there is only context; the audience (expectations, needs, workflows, etc.)
23:36
intracube
troy_s: ^
23:36
troy_s
intracube: What about it?
23:36
intracube
oval bokeh
23:36
troy_s
Not on the left, And the right is... odd?
23:36
troy_s
A wide angle lens that is not spherical?
23:37
troy_s
Somethign amiss there.
23:37
comradekingu
troy_s: no it isnt, its subjective, thats the point. Why appologize for having an opinion
23:37
intracube
left is lens without anything in front. right is with (badly) cut out oval(ish) in front of the lens
23:37
troy_s
comradekingu: Oh. Then I concur. It's not so much opinion for design though... it's more anchored in the context (not the least of which can be historical / cultural / and other seemingly non-design things)
23:37
comradekingu
Chrome is mentioned as open source...
23:38
intracube
couldn't get closer than about 10mm as there's a UV filter there
23:38
troy_s
comradekingu: Sure. And it doesn't have color management. :)
23:38
troy_s
intracube: Cheating the bokeh via a slit hole. :)
23:38
intracube
troy_s: a properly proportioned oval mask right against the front lens element would look better
23:38
troy_s
intracube: You can stuff one of those behind the rear element you know.
23:39
troy_s
intracube: Or a net.
23:39
intracube
troy_s: and have it drop off and rattle around against the sensor?
23:39
intracube
nope!
23:39
dmjnova
comradekingu: troy_s has some valuable opinions as far as video editors are concerned
23:39
intracube
troy_s: either way, oval bokeh
23:39
troy_s
intracube: Uh... no. 3M transfer tape.
23:39
troy_s
Been doing it for years.
23:39
troy_s
Needless to say, it is not the same.
23:39
intracube
meh, close enough :P
23:39
troy_s
Optics are optics.
23:39
dmjnova
that said, we do think our backend approach is worthwhile
23:40
troy_s
dmjnova: The design is a problem that isn't needing solving.
23:40
troy_s
dmjnova: The dumpers for all the commercial cameras do a simple dump direct with MD5, SHA, or other such hashing. Done. No dicking.
23:41
troy_s
dmjnova: And I mean this sincerely as a question. Let's say you are doing a _low_ budget independent. You have ten SSDs worth of data. Your project is costing you personally 40000$
23:41
troy_s
dmjnova: I ask you with a straight face... do _you_ use dmedia or rsync / cp with a hash?
23:42
troy_s
Further, I'm absolutely confused as to why on earth _anyone_ sees media transfer as a design problem for an independent image maker.
23:42
dmjnova
I use dmedia for my own projects
23:42
troy_s
40000$ worth
23:42
troy_s
Where one bug costs you a whole two days of shooting
23:42
troy_s
And that's _low_ budget.
23:43
troy_s
If I sat here and rattled off a collection of say, 20 design problems facing imagers in 2014, guess how many would cite media backup?
23:43
troy_s
Where's rexbron when you need him.
23:44
troy_s
Further, of _all_ the possible issues facing an image maker using Libre / Open Source software, is archive even remotely on the map when arguably the most robust tool available is rsync?
23:44
dmjnova
I'd use dmedia, given it works, it's saved me and my team from losing things already, and then it lets my team have copies without me worrying
23:44
comradekingu
"Windows users too, did you know that Microsoft gets more and more interested in OpenSource every year?"
23:45
troy_s
Here's a quickie never thought through list of things that I could rattle off: Logging / Trimmer tool, Cutter, Conformer.
23:45
dmjnova
the importer though makes those other tools easier
23:45
troy_s
Those three things, of which they never get even remotely close to titling or any of that other crap that the fool's errands shout about, that could be potentially solved in a week.
23:45
troy_s
Except it doesn't.
23:45
troy_s
At all.
23:45
troy_s
It's a filestore.
23:45
dmjnova
especially to integrate for a team
23:46
troy_s
Team?
23:46
troy_s
What is more basic than a file vault?
23:46
troy_s
It's like space exploration... fancy kills.
23:46
dmjnova
I could argue for an hour here
23:47
dmjnova
but have to run an errand
23:47
troy_s
Of course you could.
23:47
troy_s
I'm not picking. At all. Not my intention. But the design thinking behind the past year+ is opaque to me.
23:48
troy_s
And I'd love to see folks succeed here.
23:48
comradekingu
Ok, im done.
23:48
comradekingu
I just dropped the last few chapters
23:49
troy_s
?
23:49
troy_s
(Side note: Registered 2010-07-02)
23:49
comradekingu
https://apertus.org/opensource there is minimal value in the last ones
23:50
comradekingu
or?
23:51
dmjnova
left the channel
23:51
comradekingu
90% now :)
23:55
intracube
wooo :)