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#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/12/02

Timezone: UTC


23:09
dmjnova
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02:02
lab-bot
Bertl created T200: Remote Control Display Size. http://lab.apertus.org/T200
02:06
dmjnova
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02:25
troy_s
Bertl: Beep. What speeds do you need for 4k raw at the prescribed frame rates?
02:25
troy_s
(As in what would an ideal protocol / hardware combo offer?)
02:26
Bertl
with speeds you mean bandwidth?
02:27
Bertl
(or what is it you're looking for?)
02:29
troy_s
Yes.
02:29
troy_s
Bandwidth
02:30
Bertl
well, let's do the math then, we want 4k raw, i.e. 4096x3072 pixel
02:30
Bertl
we also want 12bit (maximum on the CMV12k)
02:30
troy_s
So a word of data per pixel.
02:30
troy_s
At 300fps?
02:30
Bertl
and we probably want 25 or 30 FPS, yes?
02:31
Bertl
it can do up to 150FPS at 12bit IIRC
02:31
Bertl
so we want to calculate for the highest framerate or for "normal" framerates?
02:32
Bertl
the highest sensor rate is at 10bit with 300FPS, IIRC
02:32
Bertl
that would be about 17.6 Gigabit/s
02:33
Bertl
without any framing, encoding or checksums
02:34
Bertl
the bandwidth itself is not that problematic, but transferring it over a reasonable number of "wires" is tricky
02:35
troy_s
In your estimation, all protocol checks in, your ceiling would be around where?
02:35
troy_s
<20 Gbit?
02:35
troy_s
18-19?
02:35
Bertl
add 25% encoding and 5-10% checksum/crc
02:35
troy_s
Yikers.
02:35
troy_s
So 35%+
02:36
Bertl
so around 24Gigabit on wire
02:36
troy_s
Which puts us in what domain? Quad SDI?
02:36
Bertl
yes, quad SDI should work, dual 12G SDI also
02:36
Bertl
but that is absolute maxium we are talking about
02:37
Bertl
I don't think it is realistic to make a movie with 150/300 FPS
02:37
troy_s
6g and 12g SDI are still in rec form I believe.
02:37
troy_s
(Not quite a standard ala AC wireless)
02:38
Bertl
yep, not finished yet
02:38
troy_s
I think they have settled more or less
02:38
troy_s
I wonder what the phantom uses.
02:39
troy_s
3G-SDI
02:40
troy_s
“The three main 3G HD-SDI video outputs support dual-link 4K video and advanced scaling when set to 1080p.”
02:40
troy_s
So really, at that data thruput, it is all onboard for the foreseeable future. Striped or otherwise.
03:22
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
03:22
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
03:39
dmjnova
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04:53
troy_s
Is there a time code library out there? (For actual time code audio, not the numbers.)
05:45
danieeel
troy_s: phantom does record to internal storage, and the output is a playout only at standard speed
05:47
danieeel
troy_s: do you know google? https://github.com/x42/libltc
05:50
troy_s
danieeel: Aware of the Phantom. I was wondering what they offered for outs.
05:51
danieeel
you have to decide if you are talking about raw out or video out
05:51
danieeel
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fsteinel_
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intracube
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10:20
se6astian|away
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10:30
se6astian
good morning
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12:28
Bertl_zZ
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12:28
Bertl
morning folks!
12:28
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designbybeck
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14:22
surami
hi!
14:23
surami
is it possible to make the Beta body that kind, that the side panel could be interchangeable?
14:23
surami
i mean like this: do 1 for example for 3 hdmi connection
14:24
surami
and another one for 1 hdmi + 2 sdi connection
14:24
Bertl
I think that is already planned
14:25
surami
i see, ok
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baldand
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even
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16:56
even
hi guys =)
16:56
even
how's it going?
16:59
Bertl
all fine it seems, and for you?
17:01
even
nice to hear! well i have a few days off from work so i thought i say hi to u guys and have a look what's trending in here =)
17:05
PRN
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17:05
PRN
Hi Bertl
17:08
PRN
"I don't think it is realistic to make a movie with 150/300 FPS" As a film maker, after Dynamic range my priority will be camera's ability to do high speed shots
17:08
PRN
I expect my goto camera todo atleast 120fps
17:09
PRN
And high speed believe is one of the prime reasons why Red cameras are a huge hit
17:09
PRN
your comments are appreciated :-)
17:10
even
if you guys need something to relax dem brains 4 a few minutes. watch dis! mindblowing it is http://vimeo.com/113094940
17:12
Bertl
PRN: what I meant is, for high speed photography 150/300 FPS is usually way too slow and for making "a normal movie" the data you get when you film everything at 150 FPS is probably not worth the efford, as you would have a lot of post processing to get to sane shutter times
17:13
Bertl
but, hat doesn't mean that you won't do 300FPS (or even more at lower resolutions) in a special setup
17:14
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PRN
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17:18
PRN
hehe, yeah even tarsem singh wont do the whole film at 300 lol....peace
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dmjnova
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19:01
philippej|away
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philippej
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philippej|away
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19:05
even_
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19:07
even_
prn: right =)
19:08
even
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19:09
even_
fps ahoi! beware of the flying shrimp! :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkaIoH6Um60
19:15
even_
by the way. is there someone who already startet a design for the heatplate to sensor to peltier thingyding?
19:19
Bertl
not sure
19:36
even_
so we want copper i guess? would it make sense to pipe/lead the heat to the bottom of the camera? the idea is to connect it directly to the bottom plate that holds the rods or mounting plate. basicly in the space betweteen the camera and the tripod
19:37
even_
would be nice to have the peltier below the camera but i'm not sure if it is possible according to space cables etc.
19:38
Bertl
copper or aluminum, depending on how important weight is
19:39
Bertl
bottom is always a bad idea, mostly because heat has the tendency to go up
19:39
Bertl
so you are working at least against convection
19:40
even_
yeah right, well it was only an idea
19:43
baldand
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19:43
even_
what about best of bothsides? basicly a heatplate that goes from the bottom all the way to the top?
19:44
even_
so we get the possibility to connect the peltier at the bottom and the top?
19:44
even_
would that be possible internal space wise?
19:45
Bertl
depends on the enclosure I guess
19:46
baldand
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20:07
even_
while looking at this.. https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/Pcbstack02-V3.jpg
20:07
lab-bot
V3: Rename the "Dictator" to "Governator" ? Come Vote http://lab.apertus.org/V3
20:08
even_
pcb wise our contact area for the heatplate would be below the image sensor holder board through a hole? or directly on top/infront of the sensor?
20:19
even_
or a cnced frame around it would lead to heat differences in the middle of the sensor i guess
20:25
even_
so maybe best of both worlds to both sides of the camera. i like the 2 sided idea cause it gives more freedom. if your not going to use a peltier you still have the option to put a heatsink on top, sides or bottom depending on which direction we go with the heat transfer.
20:39
philippej
watch diy powder coating : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNmRLIVEU10
20:45
dmjnova
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PRN
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21:07
philippej
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21:32
se6astian
good night
21:34
intracube
o/
21:34
surami
good night!
21:34
surami
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21:38
intracube
early test render of apertus control variant: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y_1xnz7EUUQ/VH4_Dt_pBhI/AAAAAAAAA8Q/j26oqv22KEI/w854-h480-no/apertus_control.jpg
21:39
Bertl
nice, what's the size/resolution of the LCD display?
21:39
intracube
Bertl: whatever you want it to be :)
21:39
intracube
in the 3d model it's an image plane with a 640x480 texture
21:41
intracube
Bertl: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-APzMz49IM_8/VH5AHhcRAyI/AAAAAAAAA8k/EJI2ARMShJI/w640-h480-no/apertus_control_display.png
21:46
intracube
hmf, and I've only -just- noticed that the menu items don't line up with the buttons
21:48
Bertl
maybe try without heavily smothed fonts, because that will eat up a lot processing power
21:48
Bertl
best would be pixel accurate fonts and symbols without any smoothing
21:48
davidak
it looks really nice
21:48
intracube
Bertl: couldn't all the text and icons be pre-rendered?
21:48
intracube
davidak: thanks
21:49
intracube
Bertl: if you've ever seen winamp skins
21:49
Bertl
icons, probably, text, unlikely
21:49
se6astian
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21:49
davidak
could font-awesome be used here?
21:49
intracube
Bertl: what program, software will generate the GUI?
21:50
intracube
I guess not fully fledged Xorg
21:50
intracube
googes font-awesome
21:50
Bertl
it will be a C library running on a PIC32 microcontroller
21:50
intracube
*googles even
21:50
Bertl
so far far away from xorg and typical font rendering
21:50
intracube
Bertl: yep
21:51
intracube
davidak: font-awesome looks like it's fairly processor intensive?
21:51
intracube
Bertl: custom C library or existing?
21:51
Bertl
depends on the hardware and what we actually find
21:51
davidak
http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/
21:53
intracube
it says it doesn't need JS, yet with noscript blocking it, it's not rendering
21:53
Bertl
I doubt we will have a web browser running on the remote control :)
21:55
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davidak
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21:56
intracube
Bertl: if at all possible, having all icons/text/buttons as pre-rendered images would be good
21:57
intracube
it wouldn't even have to do any alpha blending if done carefully
21:57
Bertl
intracube: assume 2 megabyte for code and read only data, 512 kilobyte memory and try to implement the interface in C, whatever you can make work with those limitations should work on the remote control as well
21:58
Bertl
note that a display buffer for 640x480 (assuming an RGB display) already consumes about 400kbyte memory :)
21:58
intracube
512k? that's not a lot
21:59
intracube
why so limited?
21:59
g3gg0
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designbybeck
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21:59
intracube
Bertl: so make it greyscale only - 256 colours
21:59
Bertl
well, of course we can add memory and flash, etc, but I don't see that this would make sense for such a limited interface
21:59
intracube
could even be much less than 256 actually
22:03
g3gg0__
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davidak
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davidak
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22:41
intracube
because I'm very bored;
22:41
intracube
the character set for the display: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DggV4DaimnY/VH5NxcM1fXI/AAAAAAAAA84/Ic0nuyO-n7k/w250-h299-no/apertus_control_characterset_4bit.png
22:43
intracube
250x299, 74,750 pixels, 4bit per pixel (16 levels) = ~37kB
22:45
intracube
hmm, I missed out a : from the characters
22:45
intracube
#nitpick
22:48
even_
the big one behind the 9 works too =)
22:50
intracube
even_: ?
22:51
even_
nevermind i tried to be funny ^^
22:51
intracube
:)
22:52
intracube
Bertl: IMO it's important to make the interface look as modern as possible
22:53
intracube
if 'pixel accurate fonts' means non-antialised, that only works at small sizes
22:53
intracube
the large timecode characters would look really bad
22:53
intracube
it's nearly 2015 and aliased text is very 1980s :)
22:57
intracube
Bertl: another question if you've got time; does the 512kB include the frame-buffer or is it separate?