Current Server Time: 01:09 (Central Europe)

#apertus IRC Channel Logs

2014/10/02

Timezone: UTC


02:04
Wescotte
joined the channel
03:13
Bertl
off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
03:13
Bertl
changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
03:34
comradekingu
joined the channel
03:34
comradekingu
Do I have to buy the sensor separately? No, you fund development now with the 300+€ perk
03:34
comradekingu
it should say 350€ perk
03:56
ItsMeLenny
joined the channel
04:00
dmjnova
left the channel
04:21
dmjnova
joined the channel
04:51
troy_s
77000 with seven days left. Could be a close one!
05:19
comradekingu
troy_s: it was 66 with 8 days yesterday
06:15
Wescotte
left the channel
06:34
Gegsite
joined the channel
07:24
Gegsite
left the channel
10:05
Legendin_
joined the channel
10:07
Legendin_
changed nick to: Legendin|work
10:23
daFred
joined the channel
10:26
daFred
Yust 6 super35 left!! Yeah...
10:30
daFred
Indiegogo page still not working properly here in Austria... what about the rest of the world, any problems there?
10:32
Legendin|work
Works fine here in Norway
10:33
Legendin|work
What issues are you having with the site?
10:36
daFred
It does not show details like Story Updates and so on, not just AXIOM Beta seems like all indigogo pages. Bertl had the same problems last night..
11:17
MariusRumpf
joined the channel
11:19
aombk
no problem here in greece. maybe contact indiegogo?
11:23
alexML
joined the channel
11:37
alexML
hi, just got a DNG for you to experiment with: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg130271#msg130271
11:42
Bertl_zZ
changed nick to: Bertl
11:42
Bertl
morning folks!
11:43
Bertl
alexML: thanks! great work!
11:46
Bertl
btw, what's your opinion on a Parallella AXIOM?
11:47
Bertl
daFred, aombk: problem still remains, no useable information at least in Austria it seems
11:47
alexML
Parallela AXIOM? will look it up later, gtg
11:50
daFred
Hi Bertl, the Parallela ithself looks nice to play with. Have you an idea regarding the I/O's?
11:54
Bertl
yes, I have a pretty good idea regarding I/O, what would you like to know?
11:55
Bertl
btw, daFred, as you can reproduce the indiegogo issue, could you please send them a message as well, so that they might consider it more urgent?
11:55
daFred
Bertl: done already...
11:56
Bertl
excellent! thanks!
11:57
Bertl
they are not very fast, so I do not expect a response before monday or tuesday
11:57
Bertl
took them a week (and more than 10 email exchanges) to get my email address verified :/
12:03
daFred
Parallela for me looks easyer to use, like raspberrypi. Regarding I/O do you think about multiplex the outputs? -> reduced framerate?
12:05
Bertl
well, I don't think it is really easier to use than e.g. the MicroZed
12:05
Bertl
(I'd love to hear why you think it would)
12:06
Bertl
but it has a great computing potential with the epiphany cores
12:07
Bertl
and yes, the Zynq I/Os are somewhat limited (on the connectors) so we probably will focus on a smaller sensor (like the cmv2k/4k) for a start
12:07
Bertl
till we figure out a smart way to get more data into the system
12:08
MariusRumpf
changed nick to: Blackpoint
12:08
Bertl
for output of the processed data we envision a dual Parallella setup, where both boards connect via the Epiphany eLinks and the Zynq I/Os work as input on one end, and as output on the other
12:17
daFred
for me Parallela looks more like a readytouse board and they might have a good SDK... maybe a not so steep learnig curve for developers to step in or am I completly wrong?
12:18
Legendin|work
left the channel
12:19
Bertl
from the Zynq side it doesn't seem to differ from the MicroZed (at least in regard of the SDK, development, etc)
12:19
Bertl
it requires a special adapter/board to programm it though (the parallella) as the jtag is not readily available
12:20
Bertl
the Epiphany is not available on the MicroZed, so no equivalent/comparison there, but I haven't seen a good Epiphany example yet
12:27
Blackpoint
is the uHDMI on the Parallella directly usable as I/O (is it fast enough) or is another board needed for that?
12:28
daFred
and this adapter would be necessary for every developer and has the camera to be disassembled for updating? Maybe we should prefer the MicroZed...
12:29
Bertl
first, let me clearly state that we do not plan to replace the MicroZed with the Parallella
12:30
Bertl
secondly, to answer the µHDMI question: the parallella uses an Analog Devices ADV7513 for HDMI output
12:30
daFred
ok! have to go now, cu
12:31
Bertl
which is a decent HDMI controller, similar to the one we used on the ZedBoard, but only up to 165MHz Pixel Clock
12:31
Bertl
(so less than we had on the ZedBoard, but with better routing)
12:32
daFred
left the channel
12:34
aombk
you have indiegogo problems in austria only?
12:34
Bertl
maybe Austria, maybe other parts of Europe as well, we don't know yet
12:35
Bertl
but it might become an issue as we cannot access the control interface either
12:36
Legendin
left the channel
12:36
aombk
can you try using a proxy in another country or tor?
12:37
Bertl
let's wait till se6astian returns, maybe he has more luck and it is just a local issue
12:40
aombk
just give it a try with
12:40
Bertl
after all, we are engineers, we will find a solution :)
12:40
aombk
can you see the amount?
12:40
KurtAugust
joined the channel
12:40
Bertl
yes
12:40
Bertl
the amount and the perks are visible
12:40
KurtAugust
Hi, here in Belgium everything is running ok.
12:41
KurtAugust
On the indiegogo website.
12:41
Bertl
okay, thanks for verifying!
12:41
aombk
only 5 of 99 super35 left
12:51
ItsMeLenny
left the channel
12:56
aombk
indiegogo works through various tor servers
12:57
aombk
so if you want to change anything or reply to messages, you can do it through tor
12:58
aombk
maybe your government decided to censor crowd sourcing
12:58
Bertl
very unlikely ...
12:59
aombk
then these no other explanation, its jim jannard
12:59
Bertl
yes :)
13:02
sashacohen
joined the channel
13:04
sashacohen
left the channel
13:05
SashaC
joined the channel
13:06
SashaC
Good evening
13:06
aombk
haha Stu Maschwitz removed a comment because i didnt use my real name
13:06
aombk
hi SashaC
13:06
SashaC
Hey aombk, what's news?
13:09
SashaC
Really great to see the crowd-funding contributions picking up again :)
13:09
aombk
does indiegogo work for you?
13:09
aombk
because there may be some problems in some countries
13:10
SashaC
Yep, it's working fine here in Sydney (Australia)
13:10
SashaC
Is it not so in Greece?
13:11
aombk
no its ok here too, there are problems in austria
13:13
SashaC
I read through the irc logs just now. Saw that Bertl and others in Germany are having issues with it.
13:14
SashaC
aombk, what got you interested in apertus?
13:20
aombk
i dont know how to answer that. what exactly are you asking? everything about it is interesting
13:21
Bertl
SashaC: we agreed to make it useable as music synthesizer for aombk .. that sold it
13:21
Bertl
:)
13:22
Bertl
but he doesn't want to take the 20k perk, despite of the musical instruments :)
13:23
SashaC
Thanks Bertl :) aombk: Are you interested in it as a filmmaker or as an electrical engineer / developer?
13:23
KurtAugust
left the channel
13:25
aombk
actually, if you could make it usable as a guitar dsp, that would be great and i would sell my alexa to get that 20k perk and that 40k perk you so carefully plan for the end of the campaign
13:25
aombk
SashaC, i am interested in it as a filmmaker
13:26
Bertl
deal, but I can assume an optical pickup, yes?
13:28
aombk
optical guitar pickup and dsp would actually lift the project to a whole other dimension
13:29
aombk
SashaC, i have tried and owned many cameras in the past and they all had the same problem
13:30
aombk
s
13:30
KurtAugust
joined the channel
13:30
aombk
i got a canon dslr because of magic lantern
13:31
aombk
now these problems will be gone and the ml team will work on beta, what could be better
13:31
aombk
?
13:32
KurtAugust
So, which one will you be selling? The Red or the Arri? Though choice. And I'm confused.
13:34
aombk
i am going to sell the arri if they are going to release that 40k perk
13:34
aombk
for the 20k perk, only, the red
13:34
jucar
left the channel
13:34
aombk
i heard something about a 70k perk
13:34
aombk
then i will sell both
13:35
aombk
i think im going to keep my phantom
13:36
intracube
lol
13:42
jucar
joined the channel
13:45
KurtAugust
left the channel
13:46
aombk
actually beta would probably be great for rental houses
13:47
SashaC
how did you arrive at that conclusion?
13:48
aombk
because they already have equipment for monitoring recording and batteries etc and they will be able to finetune the camera for the needs of each of their customer
13:49
aombk
you havent been approached by a rental house?
13:53
SashaC
Not that I'm aware of. When we met up for the first time in Geneva a couple of years back, Sebastian and I visited a film & lighting rental house and they thought we were a little crazy for doing all this
13:55
Bertl
which was the same reaction we got on IBC last year :)
13:55
SashaC
They couldn't understand why were developing such a high performance camera and then giving away the 'blue prints' to anyone who was interested
14:01
SashaC
When people ask me why I got involved with apertus, I tell them it was out of love for egalitarianism and for being disruptive
14:02
Bertl
and because you wanted a reason to visit Austria :)
14:03
SashaC
yeah, that too of course ;)
14:04
aombk
shall i contact arri rental houses as well?:P
14:05
Bertl
they will have the greatest potential for change :)
14:06
SashaC
Speaking of Austria, has anyone seen this commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAXxnvLmtdc
14:07
Bertl
lol
14:07
SashaC
oh how the mighty have fallen...
14:08
Bertl
he was always an actor, not a specifically good one, but he's okay when he does funny stuff
14:14
aombk
ok i contacted hundreds of rental houses
14:14
Bertl
great! any feedback so far?
14:16
aombk
yes!
14:16
aombk
lots of automated replies!
14:16
aombk
isnt that great?
14:19
aombk
indiegogo may not work in czech republic too
14:25
SashaC
I'm surprised that not a single 16mm Axiom perk has been taken
14:27
SashaC
How much of a difference is there between a 16mm and 4/3 sensor?
14:27
Bertl
roughly 800 EUR or 1000 USD
14:32
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
14:34
Bertl
welcome back se6astian!
14:35
SashaC
Funny that. After our experience with the cmv12000, I'm not entirely won over by the cmv2000. The KAC12040 on the other hand has been used in the digital bolex, and I'm pretty amazed by the image quality that their team has pulled from it. I'd love to see just how much more we could unlock from it in Axiom
14:35
se6astian
good evening
14:35
se6astian
funny thing: indiegogo wont let me add new perks
14:35
SashaC
Hi Se6astian
14:36
se6astian
"you have reached the maximum number of perks" :)
14:36
Bertl
se6astian: yes, it is broken in parts of Europe
14:36
se6astian
ah at the university I didnt even see the page content neither the admin interface (of any campaign though)
14:36
se6astian
now it works again
14:36
se6astian
should we get rid of the 5000€ or 20.000€ perk ?:)
14:37
Bertl
the 5k
14:37
se6astian
ok
14:38
Bertl
we can always remove the 20k and re-add a 5k perk if we need to
14:38
se6astian
done
14:39
se6astian
SashaC: DB doesnt use the KAC12040
14:40
SashaC
Se6astian: Really? http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2013/09/new-cmos-sensor-from-ex-kodak-truesense-imaging-12mp-43-47um-kac-12040-with-global-and-rolling-shutt.html
14:41
aombk
they said they use a ccd sensor
14:41
SashaC
and http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1099-kodak-spin-off-launches-first-sensors
14:44
aombk
thats exactly the point!
14:44
se6astian
"these sensors are in the Digital Bolex and Ikonoskop" just wants to tell us that its the same company Kodak/truesense
14:44
aombk
we cant be sure even what sensor they use
14:45
aombk
http://www.digitalbolex.com/faq/ they say they use a ccd sensor because of the global shutter
14:46
aombk
and a more film-like look
14:47
Bertl
I guess anybody who has one can remove the lens system and take a snapshot of the sensor
14:47
se6astian
they say they use the KAI-04050
14:51
se6astian
should we announce something about the indiegogo downtime on twitter/fb/g+?
14:51
se6astian
is there any official statement yet?
14:52
Bertl
well, we sent messages to indiegogo and got a nice automated reply from their 24 hour response team, nothing else :)
14:52
intracube
maybe because of the downtime, indiegogo should the campaign an extra week :P
14:53
Bertl
they clearly state in their disclaimer that you're not entitled to anything and you accept the service 'as is' no warranty or anything
14:54
intracube
Bertl: yeah, I assumed that would be the case :)
14:54
Bertl
I think we should create a site like indiegogo to make some good money without doing anything
14:54
Bertl
just respond within two days with sorry, we can't reproduce
14:56
se6astian
:)
14:57
se6astian
the business modell is rather simple after all
14:57
se6astian
do what you want but give us a piece of it :)
14:57
Bertl
yup
15:05
Legendin
joined the channel
15:06
__anton
joined the channel
15:07
__anton
Hi, campaign page seems to work fine in the UK
15:07
se6astian
good :)
15:08
aombk
what i find more amazing is that they keep the money and invest them while the campaigns are on
15:09
__anton
Well interest is nearly nil these days isn't it?
15:10
aombk
not for these amounts.
15:10
aombk
http://go.indiegogo.com/blog/2013/08/biggest-crowdfunding-campaign-of-all-time-the-ubuntu-edge.html
15:10
se6astian
I am not sure they actually get the money people pledged
15:11
se6astian
otherwise paypal would insist on its 3% if projects fail and get refunded
15:14
SashaC
What percentage does indiegogo take from the final amount raised in a successful campaign?
15:14
aombk
so paypal gets them?
15:15
se6astian
4%
15:16
se6astian
I think the donations are issued but kept "on hold some way" so they can be refunded even after 60 days
15:17
aombk
but the one that holds them makes a lot of money holding them.
15:17
se6astian
would be interesting to know from a shopkeeper if he receives the money from customers paying with credit card instantly or if the credit card company issues them in bulk at the end of the money or in certain periods
15:17
aombk
maybe they have an agreement with paypal to split 50-50 on holding them
15:18
aombk
as far as i know transactions are instant
15:19
aombk
from credit card->paypal->seller
15:22
Blackpoint
left the channel
15:23
aombk
actually thats the correct amount https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge/x/898868
15:25
se6astian
ok gotta go again for a bit
15:25
se6astian
see you later
15:25
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
15:26
aombk
maybe you could make the ml logo bigger
15:26
aombk
in the campaign page
15:49
dmjnova
left the channel
15:50
daFred
joined the channel
15:59
intracube
woah, over €6,000 in the last 12 hours
16:00
dmjnova
joined the channel
16:06
dmjnova
se6astian|away: do you maybe want to list 3rd batch as "later batch" and remove the limit?
16:08
dmjnova
just thinking that there may be a flood of people wanting the S35 and if we can't add more perks
16:21
aombk
i think many of the rental houses i contacted at least are checking the campaign link i sent them
16:25
daFred
We should give them a chance to pay the full price :-))
16:34
SashaC
night everyone
16:34
SashaC
left the channel
16:44
__anton
left the channel
17:43
KurtAugust
joined the channel
17:44
Blackpoint
joined the channel
17:44
Bertl
wb KurtAugust! welcome Blackpoint!
17:44
KurtAugust
Oh wow, that critical point at around 60k seems to be long gone right now. Things are starting to see quite bright. Congratulations!
17:47
Bertl
thanks, I think it is because of ML
17:48
KurtAugust
Well, yes and no. Lots of big contributions. I would expect a lot of small contributions (like mine...) Or would it be the know how they bring to the table and the trust that people have in it?
17:50
Bertl
I guess we see both, plus the typical momentum gain when the campaign is nearly finished
17:54
Bertl
ah, indiegogo is up/working again
18:00
dmjnova
been quiet the last few hours though
18:00
dmjnova
Bertl: looked at distro options for the zedboard, seems to be ubuntu and arch
18:01
dmjnova
at least as far as what people have bothered to try and post about
18:05
KurtAugust
left the channel
18:10
regnirps
joined the channel
18:10
aombk
the link to planed5d in the campaign page doesnt work
18:11
Bertl
welcome regnirps!
18:11
Bertl
dmjnova: yeah, and ubuntu is nice but rather bloated for a camera
18:13
regnirps
Hello cinevographers
18:13
aombk
Bertl, will we be able to install and run blender on the beta and edit our footage?
18:14
aombk
keyboard and mouse will be supported?
18:14
regnirps
What processor is beinbg used? I was a bit put off by the Pi references.
18:15
Bertl
the current design uses a Zynq 7010/15/20 as main unit, and a companion PIC32MZ as general I/O processor
18:16
Bertl
the Zynq features two hardened ARM cores, and at least one of them will be running Linux
18:17
Bertl
(Cortex A9 MP Cores)
18:18
regnirps
I have used a lot of Samsung quad A15 (S5PV210S, etc) with CSI/MIPI hardware and compression transcoding and loads of throughput. Would kind of like that and be able to drop into the commercial TV studio camera space.
18:18
regnirps
But if you have the speed to do the job, no big deal I guess.
18:19
aombk
shall i get this keyboard for beta control? https://www.l3sys.com/wristpc/wristpc.html
18:19
regnirps
Quad 1.5 GHz is nice. I run them for ages on a couple of 16850 lithiums.
18:20
Bertl
we do not really like MIPI for several reasons, but the integration between FPGA fabric and ARM cores helps a lot with bandwidth
18:20
regnirps
18650? Yes.
18:20
regnirps
I don't like it much either but eh TV industy seems to.
18:21
regnirps
I am very intriqued byt he potential frame rate to allow HDR. Is there any sample video of that?
18:22
Bertl
there is a sample of HDR somewhere, it should be linked on the web pages
18:23
Bertl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF68AJ14Uu4
18:23
Bertl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUaHXvX-BIc
18:27
comradekingu
left the channel
18:28
Blackpoint
left the channel
18:41
se6astian|away
changed nick to: se6astian
18:42
Legendin
aombk: that wrist keyboard sure is expensive. Would be weirdly fun to use though
18:43
regnirps
Very cool. How os sound handled "idealy"?
18:44
Bertl
externally
18:44
regnirps
BTW, anyone want to trade a tote full of good mics for a special deal on a camera :-) http://s1091.photobucket.com/user/Comedicles/media/AlCottler/Mics/DSC_1968_zps7364d661.jpg.html
18:45
regnirps
Though better if you are filming a band.
18:47
Bertl
are you usually filming bands?
18:48
regnirps
No. I managed The Dead Kennedy's for a while about 1990 - age of the mics.
18:49
regnirps
These were used to mic orchestra and theater.
18:49
Bertl
nice
18:50
regnirps
Still nice stuff though. Adds up to about $3500 on eBay I think.
18:51
regnirps
That's actual bids. Can't use the "buy it now" BS ppricing.
18:52
regnirps
Got a couple Ari tripod heads that would be about 4 times bigger than the Axiom.
18:53
regnirps
Buy I do have some 10mm Maco Switar for 16mm cameras. Great lens. I suppose not useable for the larger sensor.
18:54
Bertl
well, apertus is not really in the position to trade anything, because we give away the Beta at cost, so we still have to pay for the parts
18:54
Bertl
regarding the 16mm, we recently added the 16mm version with the CMV2000
18:54
regnirps
I saw that. Makes a lot of nice lenses useable.
18:55
Bertl
but nevertheless, you might be able to find someone interested in those mics here on the channel
18:58
regnirps
I picked up the Tamron SP 60 and 90mm macro lenses for Nikon D1 to do product photography - mostly small PCBs similar to Sparkfun stuff. They are impressive flat field lenses, especially for the cost. I use them for everything now.
18:58
regnirps
Did I see you are aiming to have AF on Nikon lenses?
18:59
Bertl
we will work on active lens mounts, but for the initial Beta only passive mounts are planned (except for the stretch goal of course)
19:00
regnirps
I wish I had the funds right now to join the project and I hope it works out. The open source is really attractive.
19:01
Bertl
well, there are a number of options right now, from 150 EUR (for 20% discount) to 350 EUR for a Beta at cost, no need to have the rest of the money available right now
19:01
regnirps
I made the first frame grabber for Apple (The ImageWorks II which I'm sure no one remembers) and have kept up with image processing of all sorts over the years.
19:02
regnirps
You tempt me stranger!
19:03
Bertl
I think it is a good deal in any case, but YMMV
19:03
regnirps
If I had kept my Apple stock I would just top out your indigogo :-(
19:04
Blackpoint
joined the channel
19:04
Legendin
left the channel
19:05
regnirps
Looks like a great deal. I'll have to do it.
19:08
se6astian
great :)
19:22
Blackpoint
left the channel
19:25
Juicyfruit
left the channel
19:26
Juicyfruit
joined the channel
19:28
wescotte
joined the channel
19:29
wescotte
Wow, you guys had a pretty big last 24 hours!
19:30
se6astian
yes, thanks to the magic lantern community mainly :)
19:30
Bertl
yes, it seems that folks who were not sure yet, finally decided to go for it ... or maybe just the ML news kicked in
19:34
theuberkevlar
joined the channel
19:37
theuberkevlar
So, is there a plan for coordinating firmware updates for the Beta? Since it is open source to will there be an effort to gather all of the individual contributions (modifications and upgrades) and release the best of them as an official update from Apertus?
19:38
theuberkevlar
Or will we just have to search all over the web for additions and upgrades that people have done and hope we find what we need to get the camera doing what we want?
19:41
Bertl
I think both will happen, there will be a rather conservative official release, where we integrate all the stuff we consider valuable and stable
19:41
Bertl
it is very likely that we will have some flavors there
19:42
Bertl
(e.g. high FPS, movie maker, industrial, etc)
19:42
Bertl
and hopefully there will be folks like the ML developers, who will bring out their custom versions
19:48
comradekingu
joined the channel
19:49
Bertl
wb comradekingu!
19:49
comradekingu
How about a "i cant decide"-perk for 350, and then you can pick later at your choosing what option you want
19:50
Bertl
number of perks is limited on indiegogo, as we recently found out, so just pick one and let us know what version you prefer later
19:51
theuberkevlar
Bertl: Cool! I like the sound of having lots of different fuctions and features available.
19:52
apv
joined the channel
19:52
Bertl
welcome apv!
19:52
apv
yo!
19:52
theuberkevlar
Will the firmware run off of one of the SD cards? Or will it be installed to the camera's hardware?
19:52
apv
joining you from London
19:52
intracube
eventually the best bits from different firmware releases will get merged together
19:52
intracube
(I would guess) :)
19:53
Bertl
theuberkevlar: both is possible in most configurations
19:53
apv
quick hands up who has backed already?
19:53
theuberkevlar
hand up
19:53
intracube
raises hand
19:53
apv
XD
19:54
apv
very nice, I am on the brink of backing if they can do the EF mount..
19:55
apv
I begrudgingly invested quite a bit into Canon gear last December.. Ouch
19:55
Bertl
well, I don't think it is a matter of 'being able to do' the EF mount :)
19:55
theuberkevlar
Haha. If you are patient, just back it already.
19:56
theuberkevlar
Judging by the demand for EF mount stuff I think it is safe to assume that it will happen.
19:56
apv
I'm new to bcking projects, but as someone interested in both the visuals and the tech it really appeals. The mount will therefore be interchangeable, just like the rest of the camera I presume?
19:57
theuberkevlar
Yes.
19:57
apv
sweet
19:57
theuberkevlar
As far as I understand.
19:57
Bertl
yes, but note that chaning the mount on a daily basis is not something you want to do
19:58
apv
left the channel
19:58
Bertl
it is more something you probably do once every blue moon when you decide that lens system A is cooler than lens system B
20:07
theuberkevlar
Bertl: So If I wanted to change firmware back and forth frequently I could just have two different SD cards with different versions of the firmware on them rather than having to reinstall the new firmware to the camera each time?
20:08
Bertl
that's the idea
20:08
theuberkevlar
Woot!
20:08
theuberkevlar
:)
20:08
theuberkevlar
That would be extremely useful and efficient! :)
20:08
Bertl
that's the idea :)
20:09
comradekingu
so what happens when the third batch of super35 sells out?
20:10
theuberkevlar
Then we will all rejoice
20:10
daFred
left the channel
20:10
comradekingu
but wouldnt there be more rejoicing if there could be a 4th batch for 4th batchers to enjoy?
20:11
comradekingu
also i think the other options would be more popular if they werent 350 upfront
20:11
dmjnova
comradekingu: It's possible there will be a 4th batch, though the campaign will already be in gravy mode by then
20:12
dmjnova
quite possibly, but the 350 is what covers the development of the beta as a whole
20:13
comradekingu
thats not how economics work though, unless im missing something about the development
20:14
comradekingu
Right now 13 cameras have sold that arent super35. At most 16, lets interpollate that to 20. it takes up categories that could be used to sell things that are decidedly popular
20:15
comradekingu
If its going to be 350 on all cameras, make one of them a multiple choice one like the other categories are
20:16
intracube
Bertl (or anyone else who might know) - what quality downscaling will be possible in-camera?
20:16
intracube
example; user wants to capture using the entire sensor area, but only needs to output standard definition over HDMI
20:16
intracube
would it be possible to downscale/interpolate all pixels on the sensor?
20:17
Bertl
yes, that is possible in several ways
20:17
intracube
or would line skipping and other methods need to be used?
20:17
theuberkevlar
left the channel
20:17
Bertl
you could do it via binning and subsampling
20:17
comradekingu
also "Do I have to buy the sensor separately? No, you fund development now with the 300+€ perk" isnt corrected to 350€
20:17
Bertl
or you could interpolate and combine in the FPGA
20:17
theuberkevlar
joined the channel
20:17
Bertl
comradekingu: it's 300+ because there were perks for early birds
20:18
Bertl
those lucky folks got the same deal for 300 EUR :)
20:18
intracube
Bertl: one thing I noticed about the Red camera (I don't remember which model) was that recording directly to 2K gave significantly softer results compared to recording 4K and then down-sampling later on a computer
20:19
Bertl
probably something related to the proprietary algorithms involved
20:20
Bertl
I do not see how it would matter where/when you combine the data, only the algorithms you use will affect the outcome
20:21
Bertl
of course, if you use the sensors binning, you can reduce the transferred data and thus the noise resulting from the readout
20:21
intracube
^ yes, exactly. but a computer doesn't have to do it in real-time
20:22
Bertl
OTOH, binning in the sensor might also reduce your bit depth
20:22
Gegsite
joined the channel
20:22
Bertl
wb Gegsite!
20:22
Gegsite
hello
20:23
intracube
actually, the issue with the Red footage might have been because it was recorded at a high FPS
20:23
comradekingu
Bertl: that doesnt reflect the "now" part of the sentence, id suggest correcting it to 350 so as to not have prospective buyers feel cheated
20:23
intracube
anyways
20:24
wescotte
comradekingu: They add more batches to the campaign when one is close to selling out. I don't think they have any limits.
20:24
comradekingu
wescotte: except for the number of perks, which is capped now
20:25
wescotte
comradekingu: you mean the 99 part?
20:25
comradekingu
i mean the current number of perks is maybe the maximum, which means perks cant be added ad infinitum
20:25
Bertl
se6astian: can you change the 300+ EUR to 350 EUR (300 EUR for early birds) ?
20:26
comradekingu
Being one of the 13 who went with another option than super35, i really want the project to succeed. So i think it should focus on super35, and not niche options and t-shirts
20:27
wescotte
comradekingu: I don't thin there is a limit to the number of perks they can add (well I'm sure there is a limit but it's probably capped at a 32bit unsigned int or something like that) so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
20:28
Bertl
wescotte: yes, there is, and we already reached it
20:28
comradekingu
So the project needs to decide how big it wants to be, and what should be done about the unpopular options. I think offering the 16mm at 250 EURO might make it viable
20:28
wescotte
Bertl: wow really?
20:28
Bertl
yeah, indiegogo is 'special' :/
20:28
comradekingu
(kl. 21.48 +0200) Bertl: number of perks is limited on indiegogo, as we recently found out, so just pick one and let us know what version you prefer later
20:29
Bertl
comradekingu: not an option, as we kind of will allow folks to change their mind later (regarding sensor) so a 250 EUR option there would basically block that for obvious reasons
20:29
comradekingu
Or, send out a questionaire to the 12/15 others who picked something other than super35 and ask them what they think
20:29
wescotte
in that case why not combine them? "350 EURO" for beta camera *sensor to be decided upon after campaign finishes
20:30
Bertl
because existing perks which have been chosen (i.e. at least one person picked it) are immutable
20:30
wescotte
but the user can change it on their end?
20:30
comradekingu
Bertl: Well then the logical approach would be to offer the "350 im in" option
20:30
wescotte
comradekingu: yeah I agree with that
20:31
comradekingu
Bertl: well at least nix the 16mm for the time being. Or ask indiegogo if they can increase the 3rd batch numbers on super35
20:31
Bertl
at the moment it is not really an issue, there are plenty of perks for all variations available
20:32
wescotte
I'm really blown away IndieGoGo limits perks like that. One hand I can understand that you don't want to bloat your campaign with perks making it confusing to backers but on the other hand.. why a hard limit?
20:32
comradekingu
Bertl: Matematically it is an issue. And it adds confusion for prospective buyers
20:32
Bertl
96 four thirds, 99 35mm and 99 16mm
20:32
comradekingu
Decide later is such a goto solution, because then you get people down from the fence right away
20:33
comradekingu
I dont really want to put my eggs in the basket if i dont have to
20:33
Bertl
let's see what sebastian thinks about that, we could still get rid of the 16mm option I guess
20:33
comradekingu
Bertl: the 3rd batch super35 probably will sell out. The others wouldnt if the campaign lasted a year
20:33
dmjnova
nobody has yet picked the 3rd batch
20:34
comradekingu
And here is how a collective mindset works. People pick super35 because that will be the cost-effective option, seeing as it can be ordered bulk
20:34
wescotte
comradekingu: either way it can be confusing. If you have a "I'm in for 350" option you risk confusing the backer about different sensors cost different amounts later down the road.
20:34
comradekingu
dmjnova: other than calling it the 3rd, i suppose nothing changes the popularity
20:35
comradekingu
Will a 3rd batcher have to wait considerably longer than a 2nd batcher?
20:35
dmjnova
I mean 0 out of 99 have been taken so far
20:35
comradekingu
wescotte: well call it something reasonable
20:36
wescotte
is the batch thing another limitation with indiegogo? only 99 backers per reward? or is there a specific reason for having batches?
20:37
Bertl
the main reason is that we wont be able to produce a high number of Beta devices unless the folks interested pay for the parts/sensors in advance
20:38
dmjnova
wescotte: so that they can stagger the expected ship dates
20:38
dmjnova
Basically, they're estimating the ability to make about 99 cameras per month
20:38
wescotte
Ah
20:38
daFred
joined the channel
20:39
Bertl
yup, which is already a lot :)
20:39
comradekingu
350 € AXIOM Beta: 16mm, m43 or Super35
20:39
comradekingu
pay 350€ now and est 1500€ for 16mm 1900€ for m43 or 2200€ for super35 due at ship of Axiom beta. Receive ....
20:41
Legendin
joined the channel
20:41
comradekingu
dmjnova: Put that in the FAQ, waiting a few months is managable
20:42
comradekingu
Is there any target at which the price goes down? Like 500 super35s?
20:43
se6astian
the price will basically decrease per unit for every additional camera
20:44
se6astian
buts its very hard to predict as every component has the volume discount at differrent levels
20:44
se6astian
in any case we will forward the savings to backers
20:50
comradekingu
And ordering 20 16mm/m43 sensors is a matter of fitting them in the same everything else and machining a different lensmount to put on?
20:52
comradekingu
Hoping the 100000 is met soon so that a real consideration can be made
20:56
theuberkevlar
Then tweet and share like crazy! Tell everybody! :) I'm doing that over in my neck of the woods.
21:00
comradekingu
Id do that if there was a bill of materials shared. Or some sort of math devising how the prices were worked out
21:02
comradekingu
Im willing to lose 350 euro to support best effort free software projects. The videographers i know want to shoot video, and not dealing with bad software is a plus
21:05
Bertl
comradekingu: we already made a list what units we plan for the Beta, but to fix the parts before we do the development would be insane
21:05
Bertl
I could make you a BOM, but I'm pretty sure it will be quite different from the first Beta we ship
21:06
comradekingu
This is what i knew from before, there was a prototype made. I dont know how. I know someone wants 16mm m43 and super35, but i dont know what the plan is
21:07
comradekingu
What companies handle what, time, labour, partlist, etc
21:07
comradekingu
I know one guy i can advertise to, will do
21:07
Bertl
the prototype was made by me, at my home
21:08
Bertl
the PCBs were made by OSHpark, they are also available there
21:08
__anton
joined the channel
21:08
Bertl
we plan to use OSHpark for the Beta as well
21:08
Bertl
assembly of the early betas will be done in-house, for obvious reasons
21:09
Bertl
assembly of the final Beta is not decided yet
21:10
Bertl
testing of the Betas will happen in house as well
21:11
Bertl
partlists will be fixed when we finish the early betas, but we make sure that the parts are readily available at most distributors around the world, e.g. farnell/element13, mouser, digikey, etc
21:13
Bertl
lens mount and case are still undecided, but we will prefer manufacturing methods which can be easily recreated
21:23
Gegsite
left the channel
21:24
comradekingu
Bertl: milling the metal parts isnt out of the question. The black body could be made out of nylon to keep costs down
21:24
Bertl
yep, we keep our options open here
21:25
comradekingu
I would much rather the frame got hot and was coupled directly to the heat-production rather than having a fan
21:25
Bertl
this is also an option
21:25
comradekingu
And the fan is right where i was going to put my visoflex
21:27
Bertl
the fan is optional in the current design :)
21:27
Bertl
but I guess you have a tiny visoflex planned :)
21:40
comradekingu
the fan is optional, thats huge
21:40
comradekingu
disclose this information
21:40
comradekingu
Nobody i can think of really wants a fan close to a nice place to place a microphone
21:41
Bertl
well, we'll see how much cooling the Beta will require
21:41
dmjnova
comradekingu: cooling affects how much noise the image has
21:41
Bertl
for some folks good pictures with as little noise as possible are more important than having a microphone on top of the camera
21:42
comradekingu
dmjnova: put this in a cooling part of the prospective sell
21:42
comradekingu
With the names of the companies involved in production
21:43
comradekingu
I put my good name on the line to promote you. Listing companies that do good business is effectivly the same
21:43
comradekingu
no questions asked (unlike me ;)
21:43
dmjnova
Hmm, perhaps I will mount the camera beneath a set of 4 large unducted fans.
21:44
Bertl
comradekingu: once we know who will be doing what, we will certainly promote them, as we did with cmosis and xilinx already
21:48
se6astian
any native speakers here that could help me review the next campaign update text
21:48
comradekingu
i can help out, i do lots of translation work
21:48
se6astian
perfect
21:49
se6astian
pmed you
21:52
comradekingu
reading
22:00
designbybeck_
left the channel
22:00
designbybeck
left the channel
22:12
wescotte
If you just need somebody to proofread your English I can take a peak too
22:13
__anton
left the channel
22:14
se6astian
yes please :)
22:30
daFred_
joined the channel
22:33
daFred
left the channel
22:37
theuberkevlar
Sebastian, I'll have a look at it as well, if you'd like.
22:47
se6astian
sure, everyone :)
22:48
daFred_
left the channel
22:49
se6astian
will post the next update tomorrow morning
22:49
se6astian
good night
22:50
dmjnova
se6astian: does the PLR increase the dynamic range by 6 stops?
22:50
dmjnova
is that an accurate thing to say?
22:51
se6astian
no
22:51
se6astian
its just one of many settings that led to this
22:51
troy_s
PLR = knees
22:52
se6astian
yes
22:52
troy_s
Basically a log simulation.
22:52
troy_s
If PLR is implemented, would be great to have a 1D LUT transform to turn the irregular knees into a proper Cineon or other standard log.
22:53
se6astian
changed nick to: se6astian|away
22:55
wescotte
troy_s: what does "knees" mean? Never heard the term before.
22:56
troy_s
wescotte: points where the linear response changes slope
22:57
Bertl
knees (plural of knee)
22:57
troy_s
wescotte: Greater latitude in exchange for bit granularity
22:58
troy_s
Linear toe, with stepped degradation at higher intensities
23:03
wescotte
just in highlights right? any pixels that would clip under a single exposure are the only ones effected?
23:04
comradekingu
is it like variable focus peeking?
23:04
Bertl
troy_s: you cannot really change a piecewise linear curve into a log curve
23:05
Bertl
you can recreate the linear part and then convert it to log though
23:08
comradekingu
Taking a little break. The update is conceivable for me now. (and i have only a basic level of understanding)
23:08
Legendin
left the channel
23:10
Bertl
btw, so much for the indiegogo support:
23:10
Bertl
Thanks for reaching out and bringing this to our attention. We tried looking into this on our end, but unfortunately we're not able to reproduce.
23:11
Bertl
glad that it resolved itself in the meantime, otherwise that would be the start of another one-week, 10+ email exchange :)
23:12
surami
joined the channel
23:13
Bertl
wb surami!
23:15
__anton
joined the channel
23:17
troy_s
Bertl: Same idea... Just do it in a single step
23:18
troy_s
Bertl: Pretty sure it is a 1D LUT to convert a piecewise 3 step slope to a known log. ;)
23:18
troy_s
wescotte: Think of it this way
23:19
troy_s
On a linear sensor, aside from the very high and very low, each well of photons records the amount in the well.
23:19
troy_s
wescotte: If we want dense data in the perceptual exposure zone (humans have a LUT built in for a sensitive to less sensitive for intensity)
23:20
surami
left the channel
23:21
troy_s
wescotte: We keep the linear toe portion for dense data... At 50% of sensor sensitivity, we could cut the data in half but under/over/gain it such that for every two photons we get a level of one recorded.
23:21
troy_s
So 1:1 for the first 50% of the sensor capacity, then a knee at 50% that changes the slope to 2:1
23:21
troy_s
We gain the latitude (the sensor is under gained at those values) at the expense of bit depth (we only get half the steps in data)
23:22
troy_s
That is how a traditional log curve works in a camera; it has a sort of built in compression that is close-ish to the log response of a human's vision.
23:23
wescotte
I think I understand it.
23:23
troy_s
The part we waste is higher up in intensity, about where our vision starts to degrade.
23:23
troy_s
The downside is that in post, if you overexposed, your data becomes a little more posterized if you dial it down.
23:24
troy_s
wescotte: That help?
23:24
__anton__
joined the channel
23:25
__anton__
Hi, crazy department here again :) How about a 3-part metal case? I've drawn a rough sketch. Please let me know if I managed to express myself there. http://s017.radikal.ru/i439/1410/9b/0a9132efa53d.jpg
23:26
Bertl
well, while it looks interesting, there are a number of issues with this design, we already consider something similar
23:26
__anton__
Peltier element optional here. What I still don't like is that nothing holds sensor in place. Perhaps some kind of bracket pressing it against the PCB and the cooling copper panel would be good.
23:27
Bertl
first, there is a major electrical problem with splitting the sensor into two separate sides
23:27
__anton__
splitting sensor?
23:27
Bertl
(not to mention that this won't work for e.g. the cmv2k, as it has the pins in the middle
23:27
wescotte
troy_s: I just didn't know what he term "knee" referred to. I think I have a decent understanding of how adjusting the response curve works.
23:28
troy_s
The PLS is the slope control points.
23:28
Bertl
__anton__: secondly, the back side of the sensor needs to hold components as well, for decoupling and to actually collect and transport the data
23:28
troy_s
Aka knees
23:29
wescotte
troy_s: However, the actual increase in dynamic range only happens because in a single exposure the highlights would clip correct?
23:29
troy_s
wescotte: Not because of it.
23:29
troy_s
It is an option.
23:30
troy_s
An entirely linear response fills the wells very quickly as you cited, hence lower latitude.
23:30
Bertl
__anton__: and finally, it is quite tricky to get all the connections (e.g. between sensor and MicroZed through a panel
23:30
troy_s
So the increase in dynamic range is a design consideration / goal.
23:30
troy_s
Hence a 10 bit log curve can hold close to a 16 bit linear data set.
23:31
Bertl
__anton__: what we can do, and what we are considering for the Beta is to have the sensor sit on a cooling plate, basically a copper/aluminum plate with holes where the sensor socket pins go
23:31
Bertl
this allows to screw the plate against the sensor, while isolating it from the PCB
23:32
Bertl
this also allows to attach it to heat fins or peltier elements if it makes sense
23:32
Bertl
while it keeps the back side of the sensor PCB free for decoupling/data collection
23:33
__anton__
Bertl: if you've considered this design it's fine with me. You're designing this thing not me :) I trust that you're weighting all pros and cons. Issues 2 and 3 seem somewhat solvable to me - like make the copper plate from my design more tall, make very large holes in middle panel for connectors, etc. However it may well be that the idea you described is going to deliver better results overall and would keep costs within reason.
23:34
Bertl
the problem with connecting the zynq to the back side of the camera is that for proper heat transfer, we need good contact
23:34
wescotte
troy_s: adjusting the curve is non destructive right and can be done anytime?
23:34
Bertl
and it is one of the open questions how to do that
23:35
troy_s
wescotte: Explain. You permanently lose the bits.
23:36
troy_s
wescotte: As in if we are 2:1, we are permanently changing the meaning of a range of integers stored in the file.
23:36
Bertl
__anton__: i.e. we can clip the front or the back, but clipping both means that the actual connections between the PCBs need to be very flexible
23:36
troy_s
wescotte: Because the data wasn't there to begin with. We undergain at a certain level, the well won't respond until it hits a certain point.
23:37
Bertl
__anton__: and we are not convinced that using FPC/FFC between otherwise loose parts is really such a great idea
23:38
Bertl
__anton__: but if you like to address such design issues, feel free to join when we start tackling this (prepare some concepts, etc)
23:40
__anton__
Bertl: thanks for explaining. Yes I guess I had FPC/FFC in mind. After all any camera you open and any laptop would probably have them, so I was used to seeing them. However I understand that you're looking for a way to do without them
23:40
wescotte
troy_s: maybe I don't understand how sensors work... What do you mean by the well won't respond until it hits a certain point? The well just collects photons and doesn't do anything else. Then we read it by emptying it and counting?
23:40
wescotte
troy_s: or is there more logic at the sensor level itself?
23:41
__anton
left the channel
23:41
Bertl
__anton__: we might still find a viable solution via some heat conducting foam or sping mechanism, but I guess we have to experiment there so it might not work at the first attempt
23:42
__anton__
Bertl: I see. I haven't designed a single appliance in my life so what do I know. My current sympathy is with clipping both of the PCB-s in a hard way to body parts. But then there's the question of how you connect them.
23:44
__anton__
Bertl: and clipping the frong one to smth is pretty much a requirement sync you need the sensor to sit in a very precisely defined point, right? So when you rotate your lens to hard stop it is indeed focused to infinity?
23:45
Bertl
yes, that's my point, the front needs to be precisely aligned
23:46
Bertl
there is a tiny variance given by the sensor socket, but that's about it
23:46
comradekingu
Is a regular camera not a unibody?
23:46
wescotte
Is Allan Nordhøy in here?
23:47
comradekingu
yes
23:48
wescotte
comradekingu: In the Google Doc when you asked about "further" how did you do that?
23:48
comradekingu
i made a comment
23:48
__anton__
wescotte: re curve and how the sensor work in extended dynamic range mode - could the sensor datasheet help? https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-hardware/blob/master/Datasheets/datasheet_CMV12000%20v1.12.pdf
23:48
comradekingu
Allan Nordhøy is my actual name, just so we're clear there
23:49
comradekingu
wescotte: rightlick somethihng "comment" and there you go
23:49
troy_s
wescotte: Photons excite the wells. We can under gain (PLS slopes) with unique levels
23:50
wescotte
comradekingu: To make a comment did you highlight the text and right click then select comment? It performs the highlighting and whatnot?
23:50
troy_s
wescotte: So that could be “For every two photons of voltage, only record a single level above XXX.”
23:51
comradekingu
wescotte: i think that works. But what you are referring to is perhaps the suggestions. And/or formatting text _like this_
23:52
wescotte
comradekingu: never really used Google Docs with multiple users before. It has some cool features!
23:52
comradekingu
A friend of mine made multiplayer notepad back in 2003 or something, we made comments right in the editing, and that worked better
23:54
comradekingu
Its funny how fast we accept new things as inevitable
23:55
Bertl
wescotte: it would be better if it was more 'Unix' friendly
23:56
Bertl
for example the 'Windows' style copy paste with the absolutely stupidious copy/paste menu
23:57
Bertl
(while there is no real reason to block the 'Unix' style copy/paste)
23:59
wescotte
troy_s: when you read the sensor are you reading the state of the entire thing at once? Or can you read per well?
23:59
troy_s
wescotte: I think it is a voltage curve.
23:59
troy_s
wescotte: Bertl can probably give you explicit details.