#apertus IRC Channel Logs

Do I have to buy the sensor separately? No, you fund development now with the 300+€ perk

troy_s: it was 66 with 8 days yesterday

Indiegogo page still not working properly here in Austria... what about the rest of the world, any problems there?

What issues are you having with the site?

alexML: thanks! great work!

daFred, aombk: problem still remains, no useable information at least in Austria it seems

Hi Bertl, the Parallela ithself looks nice to play with. Have you an idea regarding the I/O's?

btw, daFred, as you can reproduce the indiegogo issue, could you please send them a message as well, so that they might consider it more urgent?

excellent! thanks!

took them a week (and more than 10 email exchanges) to get my email address verified :/

well, I don't think it is really easier to use than e.g. the MicroZed

but it has a great computing potential with the epiphany cores

till we figure out a smart way to get more data into the system

for output of the processed data we envision a dual Parallella setup, where both boards connect via the Epiphany eLinks and the Zynq I/Os work as input on one end, and as output on the other

it requires a special adapter/board to programm it though (the parallella) as the jtag is not readily available

is the uHDMI on the Parallella directly usable as I/O (is it fast enough) or is another board needed for that?

first, let me clearly state that we do not plan to replace the MicroZed with the Parallella

ok! have to go now, cu

(so less than we had on the ZedBoard, but with better routing)

you have indiegogo problems in austria only?

but it might become an issue as we cannot access the control interface either

can you try using a proxy in another country or tor?

just give it a try with

can you see the amount?

yes

Hi, here in Belgium everything is running ok.

okay, thanks for verifying!

so if you want to change anything or reply to messages, you can do it through tor

very unlikely ...

yes :)

Good evening

hi SashaC

Really great to see the crowd-funding contributions picking up again :)

because there may be some problems in some countries

Is it not so in Greece?

I read through the irc logs just now. Saw that Bertl and others in Germany are having issues with it.

i dont know how to answer that. what exactly are you asking? everything about it is interesting

:)

Thanks Bertl :) aombk: Are you interested in it as a filmmaker or as an electrical engineer / developer?

actually, if you could make it usable as a guitar dsp, that would be great and i would sell my alexa to get that 20k perk and that 40k perk you so carefully plan for the end of the campaign

deal, but I can assume an optical pickup, yes?

SashaC, i have tried and owned many cameras in the past and they all had the same problem

now these problems will be gone and the ml team will work on beta, what could be better

So, which one will you be selling? The Red or the Arri? Though choice. And I'm confused.

for the 20k perk, only, the red

i heard something about a 70k perk

i think im going to keep my phantom

actually beta would probably be great for rental houses

because they already have equipment for monitoring recording and batteries etc and they will be able to finetune the camera for the needs of each of their customer

Not that I'm aware of. When we met up for the first time in Geneva a couple of years back, Sebastian and I visited a film & lighting rental house and they thought we were a little crazy for doing all this

They couldn't understand why were developing such a high performance camera and then giving away the 'blue prints' to anyone who was interested

and because you wanted a reason to visit Austria :)

shall i contact arri rental houses as well?:P

Speaking of Austria, has anyone seen this commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAXxnvLmtdc

oh how the mighty have fallen...

ok i contacted hundreds of rental houses

yes!

isnt that great?

I'm surprised that not a single 16mm Axiom perk has been taken

roughly 800 EUR or 1000 USD

welcome back se6astian!

good evening

Hi Se6astian

se6astian: yes, it is broken in parts of Europe

now it works again

the 5k

we can always remove the 20k and re-add a 5k perk if we need to

SashaC: DB doesnt use the KAC12040

they said they use a ccd sensor

thats exactly the point!

we cant be sure even what sensor they use

and a more film-like look

they say they use the KAI-04050

is there any official statement yet?

maybe because of the downtime, indiegogo should the campaign an extra week :P

Bertl: yeah, I assumed that would be the case :)

just respond within two days with sorry, we can't reproduce

the business modell is rather simple after all

yup

good :)

Well interest is nearly nil these days isn't it?

http://go.indiegogo.com/blog/2013/08/biggest-crowdfunding-campaign-of-all-time-the-ubuntu-edge.html

otherwise paypal would insist on its 3% if projects fail and get refunded

so paypal gets them?

I think the donations are issued but kept "on hold some way" so they can be refunded even after 60 days

would be interesting to know from a shopkeeper if he receives the money from customers paying with credit card instantly or if the credit card company issues them in bulk at the end of the money or in certain periods

as far as i know transactions are instant

ok gotta go again for a bit

in the campaign page

just thinking that there may be a flood of people wanting the S35 and if we can't add more perks

We should give them a chance to pay the full price :-))

wb KurtAugust! welcome Blackpoint!

thanks, I think it is because of ML

I guess we see both, plus the typical momentum gain when the campaign is nearly finished

been quiet the last few hours though

at least as far as what people have bothered to try and post about

welcome regnirps!

Hello cinevographers

keyboard and mouse will be supported?

the current design uses a Zynq 7010/15/20 as main unit, and a companion PIC32MZ as general I/O processor

(Cortex A9 MP Cores)

But if you have the speed to do the job, no big deal I guess.

Quad 1.5 GHz is nice. I run them for ages on a couple of 16850 lithiums.

18650? Yes.

I am very intriqued byt he potential frame rate to allow HDR. Is there any sample video of that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF68AJ14Uu4

Very cool. How os sound handled "idealy"?

BTW, anyone want to trade a tote full of good mics for a special deal on a camera :-) http://s1091.photobucket.com/user/Comedicles/media/AlCottler/Mics/DSC_1968_zps7364d661.jpg.html

are you usually filming bands?

These were used to mic orchestra and theater.

Still nice stuff though. Adds up to about $3500 on eBay I think.

Got a couple Ari tripod heads that would be about 4 times bigger than the Axiom.

well, apertus is not really in the position to trade anything, because we give away the Beta at cost, so we still have to pay for the parts

I saw that. Makes a lot of nice lenses useable.

I picked up the Tamron SP 60 and 90mm macro lenses for Nikon D1 to do product photography - mostly small PCBs similar to Sparkfun stuff. They are impressive flat field lenses, especially for the cost. I use them for everything now.

we will work on active lens mounts, but for the initial Beta only passive mounts are planned (except for the stretch goal of course)

well, there are a number of options right now, from 150 EUR (for 20% discount) to 350 EUR for a Beta at cost, no need to have the rest of the money available right now

You tempt me stranger!

If I had kept my Apple stock I would just top out your indigogo :-(

great :)

yes, thanks to the magic lantern community mainly :)

Or will we just have to search all over the web for additions and upgrades that people have done and hope we find what we need to get the camera doing what we want?

it is very likely that we will have some flavors there

and hopefully there will be folks like the ML developers, who will bring out their custom versions

wb comradekingu!

number of perks is limited on indiegogo, as we recently found out, so just pick one and let us know what version you prefer later

yo!

joining you from London

(I would guess) :)

quick hands up who has backed already?

very nice, I am on the brink of backing if they can do the EF mount..

well, I don't think it is a matter of 'being able to do' the EF mount :)

Judging by the demand for EF mount stuff I think it is safe to assume that it will happen.

Yes.

As far as I understand.

Bertl: So If I wanted to change firmware back and forth frequently I could just have two different SD cards with different versions of the firmware on them rather than having to reinstall the new firmware to the camera each time?

Woot!

That would be extremely useful and efficient! :)

so what happens when the third batch of super35 sells out?

also i think the other options would be more popular if they werent 350 upfront

quite possibly, but the 350 is what covers the development of the beta as a whole

Right now 13 cameras have sold that arent super35. At most 16, lets interpollate that to 20. it takes up categories that could be used to sell things that are decidedly popular

Bertl (or anyone else who might know) - what quality downscaling will be possible in-camera?

would it be possible to downscale/interpolate all pixels on the sensor?

or would line skipping and other methods need to be used?

you could do it via binning and subsampling

or you could interpolate and combine in the FPGA

comradekingu: it's 300+ because there were perks for early birds

Bertl: one thing I noticed about the Red camera (I don't remember which model) was that recording directly to 2K gave significantly softer results compared to recording 4K and then down-sampling later on a computer

I do not see how it would matter where/when you combine the data, only the algorithms you use will affect the outcome

^ yes, exactly. but a computer doesn't have to do it in real-time

hello

Bertl: that doesnt reflect the "now" part of the sentence, id suggest correcting it to 350 so as to not have prospective buyers feel cheated

comradekingu: They add more batches to the campaign when one is close to selling out. I don't think they have any limits.

comradekingu: you mean the 99 part?

se6astian: can you change the 300+ EUR to 350 EUR (300 EUR for early birds) ?

comradekingu: I don't thin there is a limit to the number of perks they can add (well I'm sure there is a limit but it's probably capped at a 32bit unsigned int or something like that) so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

So the project needs to decide how big it wants to be, and what should be done about the unpopular options. I think offering the 16mm at 250 EURO might make it viable

yeah, indiegogo is 'special' :/

comradekingu: not an option, as we kind of will allow folks to change their mind later (regarding sensor) so a 250 EUR option there would basically block that for obvious reasons

in that case why not combine them? "350 EURO" for beta camera *sensor to be decided upon after campaign finishes

but the user can change it on their end?

comradekingu: yeah I agree with that

at the moment it is not really an issue, there are plenty of perks for all variations available

Bertl: Matematically it is an issue. And it adds confusion for prospective buyers

Decide later is such a goto solution, because then you get people down from the fence right away

let's see what sebastian thinks about that, we could still get rid of the 16mm option I guess

nobody has yet picked the 3rd batch

comradekingu: either way it can be confusing. If you have a "I'm in for 350" option you risk confusing the backer about different sensors cost different amounts later down the road.

Will a 3rd batcher have to wait considerably longer than a 2nd batcher?

wescotte: well call it something reasonable

the main reason is that we wont be able to produce a high number of Beta devices unless the folks interested pay for the parts/sensors in advance

Basically, they're estimating the ability to make about 99 cameras per month

350 € AXIOM Beta: 16mm, m43 or Super35

Is there any target at which the price goes down? Like 500 super35s?

buts its very hard to predict as every component has the volume discount at differrent levels

And ordering 20 16mm/m43 sensors is a matter of fitting them in the same everything else and machining a different lensmount to put on?

Then tweet and share like crazy! Tell everybody! :) I'm doing that over in my neck of the woods.

Im willing to lose 350 euro to support best effort free software projects. The videographers i know want to shoot video, and not dealing with bad software is a plus

I could make you a BOM, but I'm pretty sure it will be quite different from the first Beta we ship

What companies handle what, time, labour, partlist, etc

the prototype was made by me, at my home

assembly of the early betas will be done in-house, for obvious reasons

testing of the Betas will happen in house as well

lens mount and case are still undecided, but we will prefer manufacturing methods which can be easily recreated

Bertl: milling the metal parts isnt out of the question. The black body could be made out of nylon to keep costs down

I would much rather the frame got hot and was coupled directly to the heat-production rather than having a fan

And the fan is right where i was going to put my visoflex

but I guess you have a tiny visoflex planned :)

disclose this information

well, we'll see how much cooling the Beta will require

for some folks good pictures with as little noise as possible are more important than having a microphone on top of the camera

With the names of the companies involved in production

no questions asked (unlike me ;)

comradekingu: once we know who will be doing what, we will certainly promote them, as we did with cmosis and xilinx already

i can help out, i do lots of translation work

pmed you

If you just need somebody to proofread your English I can take a peak too

yes please :)

sure, everyone :)

will post the next update tomorrow morning

se6astian: does the PLR increase the dynamic range by 6 stops?

no

PLR = knees

Basically a log simulation.

wescotte: points where the linear response changes slope

wescotte: Greater latitude in exchange for bit granularity

just in highlights right? any pixels that would clip under a single exposure are the only ones effected?

troy_s: you cannot really change a piecewise linear curve into a log curve

Taking a little break. The update is conceivable for me now. (and i have only a basic level of understanding)

btw, so much for the indiegogo support:

glad that it resolved itself in the meantime, otherwise that would be the start of another one-week, 10+ email exchange :)

wb surami!

Bertl: Same idea... Just do it in a single step

wescotte: Think of it this way

wescotte: If we want dense data in the perceptual exposure zone (humans have a LUT built in for a sensitive to less sensitive for intensity)

wescotte: We keep the linear toe portion for dense data... At 50% of sensor sensitivity, we could cut the data in half but under/over/gain it such that for every two photons we get a level of one recorded.

We gain the latitude (the sensor is under gained at those values) at the expense of bit depth (we only get half the steps in data)

I think I understand it.

The downside is that in post, if you overexposed, your data becomes a little more posterized if you dial it down.

well, while it looks interesting, there are a number of issues with this design, we already consider something similar

first, there is a major electrical problem with splitting the sensor into two separate sides

(not to mention that this won't work for e.g. the cmv2k, as it has the pins in the middle

The PLS is the slope control points.

Aka knees

wescotte: Not because of it.

An entirely linear response fills the wells very quickly as you cited, hence lower latitude.

So the increase in dynamic range is a design consideration / goal.

__anton__: what we can do, and what we are considering for the Beta is to have the sensor sit on a cooling plate, basically a copper/aluminum plate with holes where the sensor socket pins go

this also allows to attach it to heat fins or peltier elements if it makes sense

Bertl: if you've considered this design it's fine with me. You're designing this thing not me :) I trust that you're weighting all pros and cons. Issues 2 and 3 seem somewhat solvable to me - like make the copper plate from my design more tall, make very large holes in middle panel for connectors, etc. However it may well be that the idea you described is going to deliver better results overall and would keep costs within reason.

troy_s: adjusting the curve is non destructive right and can be done anytime?

wescotte: Explain. You permanently lose the bits.

__anton__: i.e. we can clip the front or the back, but clipping both means that the actual connections between the PCBs need to be very flexible

__anton__: and we are not convinced that using FPC/FFC between otherwise loose parts is really such a great idea

Bertl: thanks for explaining. Yes I guess I had FPC/FFC in mind. After all any camera you open and any laptop would probably have them, so I was used to seeing them. However I understand that you're looking for a way to do without them

troy_s: or is there more logic at the sensor level itself?

__anton__: we might still find a viable solution via some heat conducting foam or sping mechanism, but I guess we have to experiment there so it might not work at the first attempt

Bertl: and clipping the frong one to smth is pretty much a requirement sync you need the sensor to sit in a very precisely defined point, right? So when you rotate your lens to hard stop it is indeed focused to infinity?

there is a tiny variance given by the sensor socket, but that's about it

Is Allan Nordhøy in here?

comradekingu: In the Google Doc when you asked about "further" how did you do that?

wescotte: re curve and how the sensor work in extended dynamic range mode - could the sensor datasheet help? https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-hardware/blob/master/Datasheets/datasheet_CMV12000%20v1.12.pdf

wescotte: rightlick somethihng "comment" and there you go

comradekingu: To make a comment did you highlight the text and right click then select comment? It performs the highlighting and whatnot?

wescotte: i think that works. But what you are referring to is perhaps the suggestions. And/or formatting text _like this_

A friend of mine made multiplayer notepad back in 2003 or something, we made comments right in the editing, and that worked better

wescotte: it would be better if it was more 'Unix' friendly

(while there is no real reason to block the 'Unix' style copy/paste)

wescotte: I think it is a voltage curve.