03:04 | Wescotte | joined the channel | |
04:13 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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04:13 | Bertl | changed nick to: Bertl_zZ
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04:34 | comradekingu | joined the channel | |
04:34 | comradekingu | Do I have to buy the sensor separately? No, you fund development now with the 300+⬠perk
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04:34 | comradekingu | it should say 350⬠perk
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05:51 | troy_s | 77000 with seven days left. Could be a close one!
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06:19 | comradekingu | troy_s: it was 66 with 8 days yesterday
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07:15 | Wescotte | left the channel | |
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11:07 | Legendin_ | changed nick to: Legendin|work
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11:23 | daFred | joined the channel | |
11:26 | daFred | Yust 6 super35 left!! Yeah...
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11:30 | daFred | Indiegogo page still not working properly here in Austria... what about the rest of the world, any problems there?
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11:32 | Legendin|work | Works fine here in Norway
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11:33 | Legendin|work | What issues are you having with the site?
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11:36 | daFred | It does not show details like Story Updates and so on, not just AXIOM Beta seems like all indigogo pages. Bertl had the same problems last night..
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12:17 | MariusRumpf | joined the channel | |
12:19 | aombk | no problem here in greece. maybe contact indiegogo?
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12:23 | alexML | joined the channel | |
12:37 | alexML | hi, just got a DNG for you to experiment with: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg130271#msg130271
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12:42 | Bertl_zZ | changed nick to: Bertl
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12:42 | Bertl | morning folks!
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12:43 | Bertl | alexML: thanks! great work!
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12:46 | Bertl | btw, what's your opinion on a Parallella AXIOM?
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12:47 | Bertl | daFred, aombk: problem still remains, no useable information at least in Austria it seems
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12:47 | alexML | Parallela AXIOM? will look it up later, gtg
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12:50 | daFred | Hi Bertl, the Parallela ithself looks nice to play with. Have you an idea regarding the I/O's?
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12:54 | Bertl | yes, I have a pretty good idea regarding I/O, what would you like to know?
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12:55 | Bertl | btw, daFred, as you can reproduce the indiegogo issue, could you please send them a message as well, so that they might consider it more urgent?
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12:55 | daFred | Bertl: done already...
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12:56 | Bertl | excellent! thanks!
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12:57 | Bertl | they are not very fast, so I do not expect a response before monday or tuesday
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12:57 | Bertl | took them a week (and more than 10 email exchanges) to get my email address verified :/
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13:03 | daFred | Parallela for me looks easyer to use, like raspberrypi. Regarding I/O do you think about multiplex the outputs? -> reduced framerate?
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13:05 | Bertl | well, I don't think it is really easier to use than e.g. the MicroZed
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13:05 | Bertl | (I'd love to hear why you think it would)
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13:06 | Bertl | but it has a great computing potential with the epiphany cores
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13:07 | Bertl | and yes, the Zynq I/Os are somewhat limited (on the connectors) so we probably will focus on a smaller sensor (like the cmv2k/4k) for a start
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13:07 | Bertl | till we figure out a smart way to get more data into the system
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13:08 | MariusRumpf | changed nick to: Blackpoint
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13:08 | Bertl | for output of the processed data we envision a dual Parallella setup, where both boards connect via the Epiphany eLinks and the Zynq I/Os work as input on one end, and as output on the other
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13:17 | daFred | for me Parallela looks more like a readytouse board and they might have a good SDK... maybe a not so steep learnig curve for developers to step in or am I completly wrong?
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13:18 | Legendin|work | left the channel | |
13:19 | Bertl | from the Zynq side it doesn't seem to differ from the MicroZed (at least in regard of the SDK, development, etc)
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13:19 | Bertl | it requires a special adapter/board to programm it though (the parallella) as the jtag is not readily available
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13:20 | Bertl | the Epiphany is not available on the MicroZed, so no equivalent/comparison there, but I haven't seen a good Epiphany example yet
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13:27 | Blackpoint | is the uHDMI on the Parallella directly usable as I/O (is it fast enough) or is another board needed for that?
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13:28 | daFred | and this adapter would be necessary for every developer and has the camera to be disassembled for updating? Maybe we should prefer the MicroZed...
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13:29 | Bertl | first, let me clearly state that we do not plan to replace the MicroZed with the Parallella
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13:30 | Bertl | secondly, to answer the µHDMI question: the parallella uses an Analog Devices ADV7513 for HDMI output
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13:30 | daFred | ok! have to go now, cu
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13:31 | Bertl | which is a decent HDMI controller, similar to the one we used on the ZedBoard, but only up to 165MHz Pixel Clock
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13:31 | Bertl | (so less than we had on the ZedBoard, but with better routing)
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13:32 | daFred | left the channel | |
13:34 | aombk | you have indiegogo problems in austria only?
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13:34 | Bertl | maybe Austria, maybe other parts of Europe as well, we don't know yet
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13:35 | Bertl | but it might become an issue as we cannot access the control interface either
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13:36 | Legendin | left the channel | |
13:36 | aombk | can you try using a proxy in another country or tor?
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13:37 | Bertl | let's wait till se6astian returns, maybe he has more luck and it is just a local issue
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13:40 | aombk | just give it a try with
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13:40 | Bertl | after all, we are engineers, we will find a solution :)
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13:40 | aombk | can you see the amount?
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13:40 | KurtAugust | joined the channel | |
13:40 | Bertl | yes
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13:40 | Bertl | the amount and the perks are visible
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13:40 | KurtAugust | Hi, here in Belgium everything is running ok.
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13:41 | KurtAugust | On the indiegogo website.
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13:41 | Bertl | okay, thanks for verifying!
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13:41 | aombk | only 5 of 99 super35 left
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13:51 | ItsMeLenny | left the channel | |
13:56 | aombk | indiegogo works through various tor servers
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13:57 | aombk | so if you want to change anything or reply to messages, you can do it through tor
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13:58 | aombk | maybe your government decided to censor crowd sourcing
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13:58 | Bertl | very unlikely ...
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13:59 | aombk | then these no other explanation, its jim jannard
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13:59 | Bertl | yes :)
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14:05 | SashaC | joined the channel | |
14:06 | SashaC | Good evening
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14:06 | aombk | haha Stu Maschwitz removed a comment because i didnt use my real name
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14:06 | aombk | hi SashaC
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14:06 | SashaC | Hey aombk, what's news?
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14:09 | SashaC | Really great to see the crowd-funding contributions picking up again :)
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14:09 | aombk | does indiegogo work for you?
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14:09 | aombk | because there may be some problems in some countries
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14:10 | SashaC | Yep, it's working fine here in Sydney (Australia)
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14:10 | SashaC | Is it not so in Greece?
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14:11 | aombk | no its ok here too, there are problems in austria
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14:13 | SashaC | I read through the irc logs just now. Saw that Bertl and others in Germany are having issues with it.
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14:14 | SashaC | aombk, what got you interested in apertus?
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14:20 | aombk | i dont know how to answer that. what exactly are you asking? everything about it is interesting
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14:21 | Bertl | SashaC: we agreed to make it useable as music synthesizer for aombk .. that sold it
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14:21 | Bertl | :)
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14:22 | Bertl | but he doesn't want to take the 20k perk, despite of the musical instruments :)
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14:23 | SashaC | Thanks Bertl :) aombk: Are you interested in it as a filmmaker or as an electrical engineer / developer?
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14:23 | KurtAugust | left the channel | |
14:25 | aombk | actually, if you could make it usable as a guitar dsp, that would be great and i would sell my alexa to get that 20k perk and that 40k perk you so carefully plan for the end of the campaign
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14:25 | aombk | SashaC, i am interested in it as a filmmaker
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14:26 | Bertl | deal, but I can assume an optical pickup, yes?
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14:28 | aombk | optical guitar pickup and dsp would actually lift the project to a whole other dimension
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14:29 | aombk | SashaC, i have tried and owned many cameras in the past and they all had the same problem
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14:30 | aombk | s
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14:30 | KurtAugust | joined the channel | |
14:30 | aombk | i got a canon dslr because of magic lantern
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14:31 | aombk | now these problems will be gone and the ml team will work on beta, what could be better
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14:31 | aombk | ?
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14:32 | KurtAugust | So, which one will you be selling? The Red or the Arri? Though choice. And I'm confused.
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14:34 | aombk | i am going to sell the arri if they are going to release that 40k perk
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14:34 | aombk | for the 20k perk, only, the red
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14:34 | jucar | left the channel | |
14:34 | aombk | i heard something about a 70k perk
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14:34 | aombk | then i will sell both
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14:35 | aombk | i think im going to keep my phantom
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14:36 | intracube | lol
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14:46 | aombk | actually beta would probably be great for rental houses
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14:47 | SashaC | how did you arrive at that conclusion?
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14:48 | aombk | because they already have equipment for monitoring recording and batteries etc and they will be able to finetune the camera for the needs of each of their customer
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14:49 | aombk | you havent been approached by a rental house?
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14:53 | SashaC | Not that I'm aware of. When we met up for the first time in Geneva a couple of years back, Sebastian and I visited a film & lighting rental house and they thought we were a little crazy for doing all this
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14:55 | Bertl | which was the same reaction we got on IBC last year :)
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14:55 | SashaC | They couldn't understand why were developing such a high performance camera and then giving away the 'blue prints' to anyone who was interested
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15:01 | SashaC | When people ask me why I got involved with apertus, I tell them it was out of love for egalitarianism and for being disruptive
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15:02 | Bertl | and because you wanted a reason to visit Austria :)
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15:03 | SashaC | yeah, that too of course ;)
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15:04 | aombk | shall i contact arri rental houses as well?:P
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15:05 | Bertl | they will have the greatest potential for change :)
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15:06 | SashaC | Speaking of Austria, has anyone seen this commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAXxnvLmtdc
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15:07 | Bertl | lol
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15:07 | SashaC | oh how the mighty have fallen...
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15:08 | Bertl | he was always an actor, not a specifically good one, but he's okay when he does funny stuff
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15:14 | aombk | ok i contacted hundreds of rental houses
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15:14 | Bertl | great! any feedback so far?
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15:16 | aombk | yes!
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15:16 | aombk | lots of automated replies!
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15:16 | aombk | isnt that great?
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15:19 | aombk | indiegogo may not work in czech republic too
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15:25 | SashaC | I'm surprised that not a single 16mm Axiom perk has been taken
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15:27 | SashaC | How much of a difference is there between a 16mm and 4/3 sensor?
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15:27 | Bertl | roughly 800 EUR or 1000 USD
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15:32 | se6astian|away | changed nick to: se6astian
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15:34 | Bertl | welcome back se6astian!
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15:35 | SashaC | Funny that. After our experience with the cmv12000, I'm not entirely won over by the cmv2000. The KAC12040 on the other hand has been used in the digital bolex, and I'm pretty amazed by the image quality that their team has pulled from it. I'd love to see just how much more we could unlock from it in Axiom
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15:35 | se6astian | good evening
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15:35 | se6astian | funny thing: indiegogo wont let me add new perks
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15:35 | SashaC | Hi Se6astian
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15:36 | se6astian | "you have reached the maximum number of perks" :)
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15:36 | Bertl | se6astian: yes, it is broken in parts of Europe
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15:36 | se6astian | ah at the university I didnt even see the page content neither the admin interface (of any campaign though)
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15:36 | se6astian | now it works again
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15:36 | se6astian | should we get rid of the 5000⬠or 20.000⬠perk ?:)
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15:37 | Bertl | the 5k
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15:37 | se6astian | ok
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15:38 | Bertl | we can always remove the 20k and re-add a 5k perk if we need to
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15:38 | se6astian | done
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15:39 | se6astian | SashaC: DB doesnt use the KAC12040
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15:40 | SashaC | Se6astian: Really? http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2013/09/new-cmos-sensor-from-ex-kodak-truesense-imaging-12mp-43-47um-kac-12040-with-global-and-rolling-shutt.html
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15:41 | aombk | they said they use a ccd sensor
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15:41 | SashaC | and http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1099-kodak-spin-off-launches-first-sensors
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15:44 | aombk | thats exactly the point!
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15:44 | se6astian | "these sensors are in the Digital Bolex and Ikonoskop" just wants to tell us that its the same company Kodak/truesense
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15:44 | aombk | we cant be sure even what sensor they use
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15:45 | aombk | http://www.digitalbolex.com/faq/ they say they use a ccd sensor because of the global shutter
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15:46 | aombk | and a more film-like look
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15:47 | Bertl | I guess anybody who has one can remove the lens system and take a snapshot of the sensor
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15:47 | se6astian | they say they use the KAI-04050
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15:51 | se6astian | should we announce something about the indiegogo downtime on twitter/fb/g+?
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15:51 | se6astian | is there any official statement yet?
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15:52 | Bertl | well, we sent messages to indiegogo and got a nice automated reply from their 24 hour response team, nothing else :)
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15:52 | intracube | maybe because of the downtime, indiegogo should the campaign an extra week :P
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15:53 | Bertl | they clearly state in their disclaimer that you're not entitled to anything and you accept the service 'as is' no warranty or anything
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15:54 | intracube | Bertl: yeah, I assumed that would be the case :)
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15:54 | Bertl | I think we should create a site like indiegogo to make some good money without doing anything
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15:54 | Bertl | just respond within two days with sorry, we can't reproduce
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15:56 | se6astian | :)
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15:57 | se6astian | the business modell is rather simple after all
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15:57 | se6astian | do what you want but give us a piece of it :)
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15:57 | Bertl | yup
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16:05 | Legendin | joined the channel | |
16:06 | __anton | joined the channel | |
16:07 | __anton | Hi, campaign page seems to work fine in the UK
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16:07 | se6astian | good :)
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16:08 | aombk | what i find more amazing is that they keep the money and invest them while the campaigns are on
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16:09 | __anton | Well interest is nearly nil these days isn't it?
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16:10 | aombk | not for these amounts.
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16:10 | aombk | http://go.indiegogo.com/blog/2013/08/biggest-crowdfunding-campaign-of-all-time-the-ubuntu-edge.html
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16:10 | se6astian | I am not sure they actually get the money people pledged
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16:11 | se6astian | otherwise paypal would insist on its 3% if projects fail and get refunded
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16:14 | SashaC | What percentage does indiegogo take from the final amount raised in a successful campaign?
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16:14 | aombk | so paypal gets them?
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16:15 | se6astian | 4%
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16:16 | se6astian | I think the donations are issued but kept "on hold some way" so they can be refunded even after 60 days
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16:17 | aombk | but the one that holds them makes a lot of money holding them.
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16:17 | se6astian | would be interesting to know from a shopkeeper if he receives the money from customers paying with credit card instantly or if the credit card company issues them in bulk at the end of the money or in certain periods
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16:17 | aombk | maybe they have an agreement with paypal to split 50-50 on holding them
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16:18 | aombk | as far as i know transactions are instant
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16:19 | aombk | from credit card->paypal->seller
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16:22 | Blackpoint | left the channel | |
16:23 | aombk | actually thats the correct amount https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge/x/898868
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16:25 | se6astian | ok gotta go again for a bit
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16:25 | se6astian | see you later
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16:25 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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16:26 | aombk | maybe you could make the ml logo bigger
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16:26 | aombk | in the campaign page
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16:49 | dmjnova | left the channel | |
16:50 | daFred | joined the channel | |
16:59 | intracube | woah, over â¬6,000 in the last 12 hours
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17:00 | dmjnova | joined the channel | |
17:06 | dmjnova | se6astian|away: do you maybe want to list 3rd batch as "later batch" and remove the limit?
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17:08 | dmjnova | just thinking that there may be a flood of people wanting the S35 and if we can't add more perks
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17:21 | aombk | i think many of the rental houses i contacted at least are checking the campaign link i sent them
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17:25 | daFred | We should give them a chance to pay the full price :-))
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17:34 | SashaC | night everyone
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18:44 | Bertl | wb KurtAugust! welcome Blackpoint!
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18:44 | KurtAugust | Oh wow, that critical point at around 60k seems to be long gone right now. Things are starting to see quite bright. Congratulations!
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18:47 | Bertl | thanks, I think it is because of ML
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18:48 | KurtAugust | Well, yes and no. Lots of big contributions. I would expect a lot of small contributions (like mine...) Or would it be the know how they bring to the table and the trust that people have in it?
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18:50 | Bertl | I guess we see both, plus the typical momentum gain when the campaign is nearly finished
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18:54 | Bertl | ah, indiegogo is up/working again
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19:00 | dmjnova | been quiet the last few hours though
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19:00 | dmjnova | Bertl: looked at distro options for the zedboard, seems to be ubuntu and arch
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19:01 | dmjnova | at least as far as what people have bothered to try and post about
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19:10 | aombk | the link to planed5d in the campaign page doesnt work
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19:11 | Bertl | welcome regnirps!
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19:11 | Bertl | dmjnova: yeah, and ubuntu is nice but rather bloated for a camera
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19:13 | regnirps | Hello cinevographers
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19:13 | aombk | Bertl, will we be able to install and run blender on the beta and edit our footage?
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19:14 | aombk | keyboard and mouse will be supported?
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19:14 | regnirps | What processor is beinbg used? I was a bit put off by the Pi references.
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19:15 | Bertl | the current design uses a Zynq 7010/15/20 as main unit, and a companion PIC32MZ as general I/O processor
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19:16 | Bertl | the Zynq features two hardened ARM cores, and at least one of them will be running Linux
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19:17 | Bertl | (Cortex A9 MP Cores)
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19:18 | regnirps | I have used a lot of Samsung quad A15 (S5PV210S, etc) with CSI/MIPI hardware and compression transcoding and loads of throughput. Would kind of like that and be able to drop into the commercial TV studio camera space.
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19:18 | regnirps | But if you have the speed to do the job, no big deal I guess.
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19:19 | aombk | shall i get this keyboard for beta control? https://www.l3sys.com/wristpc/wristpc.html
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19:19 | regnirps | Quad 1.5 GHz is nice. I run them for ages on a couple of 16850 lithiums.
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19:20 | Bertl | we do not really like MIPI for several reasons, but the integration between FPGA fabric and ARM cores helps a lot with bandwidth
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19:20 | regnirps | 18650? Yes.
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19:20 | regnirps | I don't like it much either but eh TV industy seems to.
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19:21 | regnirps | I am very intriqued byt he potential frame rate to allow HDR. Is there any sample video of that?
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19:22 | Bertl | there is a sample of HDR somewhere, it should be linked on the web pages
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19:23 | Bertl | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF68AJ14Uu4
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19:23 | Bertl | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUaHXvX-BIc
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19:27 | comradekingu | left the channel | |
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19:41 | se6astian|away | changed nick to: se6astian
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19:42 | Legendin | aombk: that wrist keyboard sure is expensive. Would be weirdly fun to use though
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19:43 | regnirps | Very cool. How os sound handled "idealy"?
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19:44 | Bertl | externally
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19:44 | regnirps | BTW, anyone want to trade a tote full of good mics for a special deal on a camera :-) http://s1091.photobucket.com/user/Comedicles/media/AlCottler/Mics/DSC_1968_zps7364d661.jpg.html
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19:45 | regnirps | Though better if you are filming a band.
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19:47 | Bertl | are you usually filming bands?
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19:48 | regnirps | No. I managed The Dead Kennedy's for a while about 1990 - age of the mics.
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19:49 | regnirps | These were used to mic orchestra and theater.
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19:49 | Bertl | nice
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19:50 | regnirps | Still nice stuff though. Adds up to about $3500 on eBay I think.
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19:51 | regnirps | That's actual bids. Can't use the "buy it now" BS ppricing.
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19:52 | regnirps | Got a couple Ari tripod heads that would be about 4 times bigger than the Axiom.
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19:53 | regnirps | Buy I do have some 10mm Maco Switar for 16mm cameras. Great lens. I suppose not useable for the larger sensor.
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19:54 | Bertl | well, apertus is not really in the position to trade anything, because we give away the Beta at cost, so we still have to pay for the parts
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19:54 | Bertl | regarding the 16mm, we recently added the 16mm version with the CMV2000
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19:54 | regnirps | I saw that. Makes a lot of nice lenses useable.
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19:55 | Bertl | but nevertheless, you might be able to find someone interested in those mics here on the channel
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19:58 | regnirps | I picked up the Tamron SP 60 and 90mm macro lenses for Nikon D1 to do product photography - mostly small PCBs similar to Sparkfun stuff. They are impressive flat field lenses, especially for the cost. I use them for everything now.
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19:58 | regnirps | Did I see you are aiming to have AF on Nikon lenses?
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19:59 | Bertl | we will work on active lens mounts, but for the initial Beta only passive mounts are planned (except for the stretch goal of course)
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20:00 | regnirps | I wish I had the funds right now to join the project and I hope it works out. The open source is really attractive.
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20:01 | Bertl | well, there are a number of options right now, from 150 EUR (for 20% discount) to 350 EUR for a Beta at cost, no need to have the rest of the money available right now
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20:01 | regnirps | I made the first frame grabber for Apple (The ImageWorks II which I'm sure no one remembers) and have kept up with image processing of all sorts over the years.
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20:02 | regnirps | You tempt me stranger!
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20:03 | Bertl | I think it is a good deal in any case, but YMMV
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20:03 | regnirps | If I had kept my Apple stock I would just top out your indigogo :-(
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20:05 | regnirps | Looks like a great deal. I'll have to do it.
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20:08 | se6astian | great :)
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20:22 | Blackpoint | left the channel | |
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20:28 | wescotte | joined the channel | |
20:29 | wescotte | Wow, you guys had a pretty big last 24 hours!
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20:30 | se6astian | yes, thanks to the magic lantern community mainly :)
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20:30 | Bertl | yes, it seems that folks who were not sure yet, finally decided to go for it ... or maybe just the ML news kicked in
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20:34 | theuberkevlar | joined the channel | |
20:37 | theuberkevlar | So, is there a plan for coordinating firmware updates for the Beta? Since it is open source to will there be an effort to gather all of the individual contributions (modifications and upgrades) and release the best of them as an official update from Apertus?
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20:38 | theuberkevlar | Or will we just have to search all over the web for additions and upgrades that people have done and hope we find what we need to get the camera doing what we want?
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20:41 | Bertl | I think both will happen, there will be a rather conservative official release, where we integrate all the stuff we consider valuable and stable
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20:41 | Bertl | it is very likely that we will have some flavors there
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20:42 | Bertl | (e.g. high FPS, movie maker, industrial, etc)
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20:42 | Bertl | and hopefully there will be folks like the ML developers, who will bring out their custom versions
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20:48 | comradekingu | joined the channel | |
20:49 | Bertl | wb comradekingu!
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20:49 | comradekingu | How about a "i cant decide"-perk for 350, and then you can pick later at your choosing what option you want
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20:50 | Bertl | number of perks is limited on indiegogo, as we recently found out, so just pick one and let us know what version you prefer later
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20:51 | theuberkevlar | Bertl: Cool! I like the sound of having lots of different fuctions and features available.
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20:52 | apv | joined the channel | |
20:52 | Bertl | welcome apv!
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20:52 | apv | yo!
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20:52 | theuberkevlar | Will the firmware run off of one of the SD cards? Or will it be installed to the camera's hardware?
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20:52 | apv | joining you from London
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20:52 | intracube | eventually the best bits from different firmware releases will get merged together
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20:52 | intracube | (I would guess) :)
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20:53 | Bertl | theuberkevlar: both is possible in most configurations
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20:53 | apv | quick hands up who has backed already?
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20:53 | theuberkevlar | hand up
| 20:53 | intracube | raises hand
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20:53 | apv | XD
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20:54 | apv | very nice, I am on the brink of backing if they can do the EF mount..
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20:55 | apv | I begrudgingly invested quite a bit into Canon gear last December.. Ouch
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20:55 | Bertl | well, I don't think it is a matter of 'being able to do' the EF mount :)
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20:55 | theuberkevlar | Haha. If you are patient, just back it already.
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20:56 | theuberkevlar | Judging by the demand for EF mount stuff I think it is safe to assume that it will happen.
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20:56 | apv | I'm new to bcking projects, but as someone interested in both the visuals and the tech it really appeals. The mount will therefore be interchangeable, just like the rest of the camera I presume?
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20:57 | theuberkevlar | Yes.
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20:57 | apv | sweet
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20:57 | theuberkevlar | As far as I understand.
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20:57 | Bertl | yes, but note that chaning the mount on a daily basis is not something you want to do
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20:58 | apv | left the channel | |
20:58 | Bertl | it is more something you probably do once every blue moon when you decide that lens system A is cooler than lens system B
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21:07 | theuberkevlar | Bertl: So If I wanted to change firmware back and forth frequently I could just have two different SD cards with different versions of the firmware on them rather than having to reinstall the new firmware to the camera each time?
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21:08 | Bertl | that's the idea
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21:08 | theuberkevlar | Woot!
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21:08 | theuberkevlar | :)
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21:08 | theuberkevlar | That would be extremely useful and efficient! :)
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21:08 | Bertl | that's the idea :)
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21:09 | comradekingu | so what happens when the third batch of super35 sells out?
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21:10 | theuberkevlar | Then we will all rejoice
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21:10 | comradekingu | but wouldnt there be more rejoicing if there could be a 4th batch for 4th batchers to enjoy?
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21:11 | comradekingu | also i think the other options would be more popular if they werent 350 upfront
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21:11 | dmjnova | comradekingu: It's possible there will be a 4th batch, though the campaign will already be in gravy mode by then
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21:12 | dmjnova | quite possibly, but the 350 is what covers the development of the beta as a whole
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21:13 | comradekingu | thats not how economics work though, unless im missing something about the development
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21:14 | comradekingu | Right now 13 cameras have sold that arent super35. At most 16, lets interpollate that to 20. it takes up categories that could be used to sell things that are decidedly popular
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21:15 | comradekingu | If its going to be 350 on all cameras, make one of them a multiple choice one like the other categories are
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21:16 | intracube | Bertl (or anyone else who might know) - what quality downscaling will be possible in-camera?
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21:16 | intracube | example; user wants to capture using the entire sensor area, but only needs to output standard definition over HDMI
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21:16 | intracube | would it be possible to downscale/interpolate all pixels on the sensor?
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21:17 | Bertl | yes, that is possible in several ways
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21:17 | intracube | or would line skipping and other methods need to be used?
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21:17 | theuberkevlar | left the channel | |
21:17 | Bertl | you could do it via binning and subsampling
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21:17 | comradekingu | also "Do I have to buy the sensor separately? No, you fund development now with the 300+⬠perk" isnt corrected to 350â¬
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21:17 | Bertl | or you could interpolate and combine in the FPGA
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21:17 | theuberkevlar | joined the channel | |
21:17 | Bertl | comradekingu: it's 300+ because there were perks for early birds
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21:18 | Bertl | those lucky folks got the same deal for 300 EUR :)
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21:18 | intracube | Bertl: one thing I noticed about the Red camera (I don't remember which model) was that recording directly to 2K gave significantly softer results compared to recording 4K and then down-sampling later on a computer
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21:19 | Bertl | probably something related to the proprietary algorithms involved
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21:20 | Bertl | I do not see how it would matter where/when you combine the data, only the algorithms you use will affect the outcome
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21:21 | Bertl | of course, if you use the sensors binning, you can reduce the transferred data and thus the noise resulting from the readout
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21:21 | intracube | ^ yes, exactly. but a computer doesn't have to do it in real-time
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21:22 | Bertl | OTOH, binning in the sensor might also reduce your bit depth
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21:22 | Bertl | wb Gegsite!
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21:22 | Gegsite | hello
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21:23 | intracube | actually, the issue with the Red footage might have been because it was recorded at a high FPS
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21:23 | comradekingu | Bertl: that doesnt reflect the "now" part of the sentence, id suggest correcting it to 350 so as to not have prospective buyers feel cheated
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21:23 | intracube | anyways
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21:24 | wescotte | comradekingu: They add more batches to the campaign when one is close to selling out. I don't think they have any limits.
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21:24 | comradekingu | wescotte: except for the number of perks, which is capped now
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21:25 | wescotte | comradekingu: you mean the 99 part?
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21:25 | comradekingu | i mean the current number of perks is maybe the maximum, which means perks cant be added ad infinitum
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21:25 | Bertl | se6astian: can you change the 300+ EUR to 350 EUR (300 EUR for early birds) ?
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21:26 | comradekingu | Being one of the 13 who went with another option than super35, i really want the project to succeed. So i think it should focus on super35, and not niche options and t-shirts
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21:27 | wescotte | comradekingu: I don't thin there is a limit to the number of perks they can add (well I'm sure there is a limit but it's probably capped at a 32bit unsigned int or something like that) so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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21:28 | Bertl | wescotte: yes, there is, and we already reached it
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21:28 | comradekingu | So the project needs to decide how big it wants to be, and what should be done about the unpopular options. I think offering the 16mm at 250 EURO might make it viable
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21:28 | wescotte | Bertl: wow really?
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21:28 | Bertl | yeah, indiegogo is 'special' :/
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21:28 | comradekingu | (kl. 21.48 +0200) Bertl: number of perks is limited on indiegogo, as we recently found out, so just pick one and let us know what version you prefer later
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21:29 | Bertl | comradekingu: not an option, as we kind of will allow folks to change their mind later (regarding sensor) so a 250 EUR option there would basically block that for obvious reasons
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21:29 | comradekingu | Or, send out a questionaire to the 12/15 others who picked something other than super35 and ask them what they think
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21:29 | wescotte | in that case why not combine them? "350 EURO" for beta camera *sensor to be decided upon after campaign finishes
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21:30 | Bertl | because existing perks which have been chosen (i.e. at least one person picked it) are immutable
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21:30 | wescotte | but the user can change it on their end?
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21:30 | comradekingu | Bertl: Well then the logical approach would be to offer the "350 im in" option
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21:30 | wescotte | comradekingu: yeah I agree with that
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21:31 | comradekingu | Bertl: well at least nix the 16mm for the time being. Or ask indiegogo if they can increase the 3rd batch numbers on super35
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21:31 | Bertl | at the moment it is not really an issue, there are plenty of perks for all variations available
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21:32 | wescotte | I'm really blown away IndieGoGo limits perks like that. One hand I can understand that you don't want to bloat your campaign with perks making it confusing to backers but on the other hand.. why a hard limit?
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21:32 | comradekingu | Bertl: Matematically it is an issue. And it adds confusion for prospective buyers
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21:32 | Bertl | 96 four thirds, 99 35mm and 99 16mm
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21:32 | comradekingu | Decide later is such a goto solution, because then you get people down from the fence right away
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21:33 | comradekingu | I dont really want to put my eggs in the basket if i dont have to
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21:33 | Bertl | let's see what sebastian thinks about that, we could still get rid of the 16mm option I guess
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21:33 | comradekingu | Bertl: the 3rd batch super35 probably will sell out. The others wouldnt if the campaign lasted a year
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21:33 | dmjnova | nobody has yet picked the 3rd batch
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21:34 | comradekingu | And here is how a collective mindset works. People pick super35 because that will be the cost-effective option, seeing as it can be ordered bulk
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21:34 | wescotte | comradekingu: either way it can be confusing. If you have a "I'm in for 350" option you risk confusing the backer about different sensors cost different amounts later down the road.
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21:34 | comradekingu | dmjnova: other than calling it the 3rd, i suppose nothing changes the popularity
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21:35 | comradekingu | Will a 3rd batcher have to wait considerably longer than a 2nd batcher?
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21:35 | dmjnova | I mean 0 out of 99 have been taken so far
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21:35 | comradekingu | wescotte: well call it something reasonable
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21:36 | wescotte | is the batch thing another limitation with indiegogo? only 99 backers per reward? or is there a specific reason for having batches?
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21:37 | Bertl | the main reason is that we wont be able to produce a high number of Beta devices unless the folks interested pay for the parts/sensors in advance
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21:38 | dmjnova | wescotte: so that they can stagger the expected ship dates
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21:38 | dmjnova | Basically, they're estimating the ability to make about 99 cameras per month
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21:38 | wescotte | Ah
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21:39 | Bertl | yup, which is already a lot :)
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21:39 | comradekingu | 350 ⬠AXIOM Beta: 16mm, m43 or Super35
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21:39 | comradekingu | pay 350⬠now and est 1500⬠for 16mm 1900⬠for m43 or 2200⬠for super35 due at ship of Axiom beta. Receive ....
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21:41 | comradekingu | dmjnova: Put that in the FAQ, waiting a few months is managable
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21:42 | comradekingu | Is there any target at which the price goes down? Like 500 super35s?
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21:43 | se6astian | the price will basically decrease per unit for every additional camera
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21:44 | se6astian | buts its very hard to predict as every component has the volume discount at differrent levels
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21:44 | se6astian | in any case we will forward the savings to backers
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21:50 | comradekingu | And ordering 20 16mm/m43 sensors is a matter of fitting them in the same everything else and machining a different lensmount to put on?
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21:52 | comradekingu | Hoping the 100000 is met soon so that a real consideration can be made
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21:56 | theuberkevlar | Then tweet and share like crazy! Tell everybody! :) I'm doing that over in my neck of the woods.
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22:00 | comradekingu | Id do that if there was a bill of materials shared. Or some sort of math devising how the prices were worked out
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22:02 | comradekingu | Im willing to lose 350 euro to support best effort free software projects. The videographers i know want to shoot video, and not dealing with bad software is a plus
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22:05 | Bertl | comradekingu: we already made a list what units we plan for the Beta, but to fix the parts before we do the development would be insane
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22:05 | Bertl | I could make you a BOM, but I'm pretty sure it will be quite different from the first Beta we ship
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22:06 | comradekingu | This is what i knew from before, there was a prototype made. I dont know how. I know someone wants 16mm m43 and super35, but i dont know what the plan is
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22:07 | comradekingu | What companies handle what, time, labour, partlist, etc
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22:07 | comradekingu | I know one guy i can advertise to, will do
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22:07 | Bertl | the prototype was made by me, at my home
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22:08 | Bertl | the PCBs were made by OSHpark, they are also available there
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22:08 | __anton | joined the channel | |
22:08 | Bertl | we plan to use OSHpark for the Beta as well
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22:08 | Bertl | assembly of the early betas will be done in-house, for obvious reasons
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22:09 | Bertl | assembly of the final Beta is not decided yet
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22:10 | Bertl | testing of the Betas will happen in house as well
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22:11 | Bertl | partlists will be fixed when we finish the early betas, but we make sure that the parts are readily available at most distributors around the world, e.g. farnell/element13, mouser, digikey, etc
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22:13 | Bertl | lens mount and case are still undecided, but we will prefer manufacturing methods which can be easily recreated
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22:23 | Gegsite | left the channel | |
22:24 | comradekingu | Bertl: milling the metal parts isnt out of the question. The black body could be made out of nylon to keep costs down
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22:24 | Bertl | yep, we keep our options open here
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22:25 | comradekingu | I would much rather the frame got hot and was coupled directly to the heat-production rather than having a fan
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22:25 | Bertl | this is also an option
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22:25 | comradekingu | And the fan is right where i was going to put my visoflex
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22:27 | Bertl | the fan is optional in the current design :)
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22:27 | Bertl | but I guess you have a tiny visoflex planned :)
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22:40 | comradekingu | the fan is optional, thats huge
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22:40 | comradekingu | disclose this information
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22:40 | comradekingu | Nobody i can think of really wants a fan close to a nice place to place a microphone
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22:41 | Bertl | well, we'll see how much cooling the Beta will require
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22:41 | dmjnova | comradekingu: cooling affects how much noise the image has
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22:41 | Bertl | for some folks good pictures with as little noise as possible are more important than having a microphone on top of the camera
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22:42 | comradekingu | dmjnova: put this in a cooling part of the prospective sell
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22:42 | comradekingu | With the names of the companies involved in production
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22:43 | comradekingu | I put my good name on the line to promote you. Listing companies that do good business is effectivly the same
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22:43 | comradekingu | no questions asked (unlike me ;)
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22:43 | dmjnova | Hmm, perhaps I will mount the camera beneath a set of 4 large unducted fans.
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22:44 | Bertl | comradekingu: once we know who will be doing what, we will certainly promote them, as we did with cmosis and xilinx already
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22:48 | se6astian | any native speakers here that could help me review the next campaign update text
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22:48 | comradekingu | i can help out, i do lots of translation work
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22:48 | se6astian | perfect
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22:49 | se6astian | pmed you
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22:52 | comradekingu | reading
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23:00 | designbybeck_ | left the channel | |
23:00 | designbybeck | left the channel | |
23:12 | wescotte | If you just need somebody to proofread your English I can take a peak too
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23:13 | __anton | left the channel | |
23:14 | se6astian | yes please :)
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23:33 | daFred | left the channel | |
23:37 | theuberkevlar | Sebastian, I'll have a look at it as well, if you'd like.
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23:47 | se6astian | sure, everyone :)
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23:48 | daFred_ | left the channel | |
23:49 | se6astian | will post the next update tomorrow morning
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23:49 | se6astian | good night
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23:50 | dmjnova | se6astian: does the PLR increase the dynamic range by 6 stops?
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23:50 | dmjnova | is that an accurate thing to say?
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23:51 | se6astian | no
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23:51 | se6astian | its just one of many settings that led to this
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23:51 | troy_s | PLR = knees
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23:52 | se6astian | yes
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23:52 | troy_s | Basically a log simulation.
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23:52 | troy_s | If PLR is implemented, would be great to have a 1D LUT transform to turn the irregular knees into a proper Cineon or other standard log.
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23:53 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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23:55 | wescotte | troy_s: what does "knees" mean? Never heard the term before.
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23:56 | troy_s | wescotte: points where the linear response changes slope
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23:57 | Bertl | knees (plural of knee)
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23:57 | troy_s | wescotte: Greater latitude in exchange for bit granularity
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23:58 | troy_s | Linear toe, with stepped degradation at higher intensities
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00:03 | wescotte | just in highlights right? any pixels that would clip under a single exposure are the only ones effected?
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00:04 | comradekingu | is it like variable focus peeking?
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00:04 | Bertl | troy_s: you cannot really change a piecewise linear curve into a log curve
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00:05 | Bertl | you can recreate the linear part and then convert it to log though
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00:08 | comradekingu | Taking a little break. The update is conceivable for me now. (and i have only a basic level of understanding)
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00:08 | Legendin | left the channel | |
00:10 | Bertl | btw, so much for the indiegogo support:
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00:10 | Bertl | Thanks for reaching out and bringing this to our attention. We tried looking into this on our end, but unfortunately we're not able to reproduce.
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00:11 | Bertl | glad that it resolved itself in the meantime, otherwise that would be the start of another one-week, 10+ email exchange :)
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00:13 | Bertl | wb surami!
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00:15 | __anton | joined the channel | |
00:17 | troy_s | Bertl: Same idea... Just do it in a single step
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00:18 | troy_s | Bertl: Pretty sure it is a 1D LUT to convert a piecewise 3 step slope to a known log. ;)
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00:18 | troy_s | wescotte: Think of it this way
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00:19 | troy_s | On a linear sensor, aside from the very high and very low, each well of photons records the amount in the well.
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00:19 | troy_s | wescotte: If we want dense data in the perceptual exposure zone (humans have a LUT built in for a sensitive to less sensitive for intensity)
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00:20 | surami | left the channel | |
00:21 | troy_s | wescotte: We keep the linear toe portion for dense data... At 50% of sensor sensitivity, we could cut the data in half but under/over/gain it such that for every two photons we get a level of one recorded.
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00:21 | troy_s | So 1:1 for the first 50% of the sensor capacity, then a knee at 50% that changes the slope to 2:1
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00:21 | troy_s | We gain the latitude (the sensor is under gained at those values) at the expense of bit depth (we only get half the steps in data)
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00:22 | troy_s | That is how a traditional log curve works in a camera; it has a sort of built in compression that is close-ish to the log response of a human's vision.
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00:23 | wescotte | I think I understand it.
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00:23 | troy_s | The part we waste is higher up in intensity, about where our vision starts to degrade.
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00:23 | troy_s | The downside is that in post, if you overexposed, your data becomes a little more posterized if you dial it down.
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00:24 | troy_s | wescotte: That help?
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00:24 | __anton__ | joined the channel | |
00:25 | __anton__ | Hi, crazy department here again :) How about a 3-part metal case? I've drawn a rough sketch. Please let me know if I managed to express myself there. http://s017.radikal.ru/i439/1410/9b/0a9132efa53d.jpg
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00:26 | Bertl | well, while it looks interesting, there are a number of issues with this design, we already consider something similar
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00:26 | __anton__ | Peltier element optional here. What I still don't like is that nothing holds sensor in place. Perhaps some kind of bracket pressing it against the PCB and the cooling copper panel would be good.
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00:27 | Bertl | first, there is a major electrical problem with splitting the sensor into two separate sides
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00:27 | __anton__ | splitting sensor?
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00:27 | Bertl | (not to mention that this won't work for e.g. the cmv2k, as it has the pins in the middle
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00:27 | wescotte | troy_s: I just didn't know what he term "knee" referred to. I think I have a decent understanding of how adjusting the response curve works.
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00:28 | troy_s | The PLS is the slope control points.
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00:28 | Bertl | __anton__: secondly, the back side of the sensor needs to hold components as well, for decoupling and to actually collect and transport the data
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00:28 | troy_s | Aka knees
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00:29 | wescotte | troy_s: However, the actual increase in dynamic range only happens because in a single exposure the highlights would clip correct?
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00:29 | troy_s | wescotte: Not because of it.
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00:29 | troy_s | It is an option.
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00:30 | troy_s | An entirely linear response fills the wells very quickly as you cited, hence lower latitude.
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00:30 | Bertl | __anton__: and finally, it is quite tricky to get all the connections (e.g. between sensor and MicroZed through a panel
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00:30 | troy_s | So the increase in dynamic range is a design consideration / goal.
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00:30 | troy_s | Hence a 10 bit log curve can hold close to a 16 bit linear data set.
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00:31 | Bertl | __anton__: what we can do, and what we are considering for the Beta is to have the sensor sit on a cooling plate, basically a copper/aluminum plate with holes where the sensor socket pins go
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00:31 | Bertl | this allows to screw the plate against the sensor, while isolating it from the PCB
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00:32 | Bertl | this also allows to attach it to heat fins or peltier elements if it makes sense
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00:32 | Bertl | while it keeps the back side of the sensor PCB free for decoupling/data collection
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00:33 | __anton__ | Bertl: if you've considered this design it's fine with me. You're designing this thing not me :) I trust that you're weighting all pros and cons. Issues 2 and 3 seem somewhat solvable to me - like make the copper plate from my design more tall, make very large holes in middle panel for connectors, etc. However it may well be that the idea you described is going to deliver better results overall and would keep costs within reason.
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00:34 | Bertl | the problem with connecting the zynq to the back side of the camera is that for proper heat transfer, we need good contact
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00:34 | wescotte | troy_s: adjusting the curve is non destructive right and can be done anytime?
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00:34 | Bertl | and it is one of the open questions how to do that
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00:35 | troy_s | wescotte: Explain. You permanently lose the bits.
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00:36 | troy_s | wescotte: As in if we are 2:1, we are permanently changing the meaning of a range of integers stored in the file.
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00:36 | Bertl | __anton__: i.e. we can clip the front or the back, but clipping both means that the actual connections between the PCBs need to be very flexible
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00:36 | troy_s | wescotte: Because the data wasn't there to begin with. We undergain at a certain level, the well won't respond until it hits a certain point.
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00:37 | Bertl | __anton__: and we are not convinced that using FPC/FFC between otherwise loose parts is really such a great idea
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00:38 | Bertl | __anton__: but if you like to address such design issues, feel free to join when we start tackling this (prepare some concepts, etc)
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00:40 | __anton__ | Bertl: thanks for explaining. Yes I guess I had FPC/FFC in mind. After all any camera you open and any laptop would probably have them, so I was used to seeing them. However I understand that you're looking for a way to do without them
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00:40 | wescotte | troy_s: maybe I don't understand how sensors work... What do you mean by the well won't respond until it hits a certain point? The well just collects photons and doesn't do anything else. Then we read it by emptying it and counting?
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00:40 | wescotte | troy_s: or is there more logic at the sensor level itself?
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00:41 | __anton | left the channel | |
00:41 | Bertl | __anton__: we might still find a viable solution via some heat conducting foam or sping mechanism, but I guess we have to experiment there so it might not work at the first attempt
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00:42 | __anton__ | Bertl: I see. I haven't designed a single appliance in my life so what do I know. My current sympathy is with clipping both of the PCB-s in a hard way to body parts. But then there's the question of how you connect them.
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00:44 | __anton__ | Bertl: and clipping the frong one to smth is pretty much a requirement sync you need the sensor to sit in a very precisely defined point, right? So when you rotate your lens to hard stop it is indeed focused to infinity?
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00:45 | Bertl | yes, that's my point, the front needs to be precisely aligned
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00:46 | Bertl | there is a tiny variance given by the sensor socket, but that's about it
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00:46 | comradekingu | Is a regular camera not a unibody?
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00:46 | wescotte | Is Allan Nordhøy in here?
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00:47 | comradekingu | yes
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00:48 | wescotte | comradekingu: In the Google Doc when you asked about "further" how did you do that?
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00:48 | comradekingu | i made a comment
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00:48 | __anton__ | wescotte: re curve and how the sensor work in extended dynamic range mode - could the sensor datasheet help? https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-hardware/blob/master/Datasheets/datasheet_CMV12000%20v1.12.pdf
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00:48 | comradekingu | Allan Nordhøy is my actual name, just so we're clear there
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00:49 | comradekingu | wescotte: rightlick somethihng "comment" and there you go
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00:49 | troy_s | wescotte: Photons excite the wells. We can under gain (PLS slopes) with unique levels
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00:50 | wescotte | comradekingu: To make a comment did you highlight the text and right click then select comment? It performs the highlighting and whatnot?
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00:50 | troy_s | wescotte: So that could be âFor every two photons of voltage, only record a single level above XXX.â
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00:51 | comradekingu | wescotte: i think that works. But what you are referring to is perhaps the suggestions. And/or formatting text _like this_
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00:52 | wescotte | comradekingu: never really used Google Docs with multiple users before. It has some cool features!
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00:52 | comradekingu | A friend of mine made multiplayer notepad back in 2003 or something, we made comments right in the editing, and that worked better
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00:54 | comradekingu | Its funny how fast we accept new things as inevitable
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00:55 | Bertl | wescotte: it would be better if it was more 'Unix' friendly
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00:56 | Bertl | for example the 'Windows' style copy paste with the absolutely stupidious copy/paste menu
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00:57 | Bertl | (while there is no real reason to block the 'Unix' style copy/paste)
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00:59 | wescotte | troy_s: when you read the sensor are you reading the state of the entire thing at once? Or can you read per well?
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00:59 | troy_s | wescotte: I think it is a voltage curve.
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00:59 | troy_s | wescotte: Bertl can probably give you explicit details.
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