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| 03:41 | Bertl | off to bed now ... have a good one everyone!
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| 10:14 | Bertl | morning folks!
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| 10:20 | se6astian | hello!
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| 11:01 | lab-bot | sebastian created T271: premade Set of LUT/curves. http://lab.apertus.org/T271
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| 19:18 | philippej_fr | anyone around to discuss what is exactly done to RAW data "as they say" before it gets outputed from traditional camera. Or in other words, what is really raw ?
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| 19:19 | philippej_fr | I hope Bertl_oO will be able to help :-)
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| 19:20 | philippej_fr | or said otherwise, what is hidden in proprietary cameras?
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| 19:38 | danieel | usually the filtering and sensor specific normalization of data
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| 19:39 | se6astian | FPN is already corrected in raw formats
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| 19:39 | se6astian | dead pixels are either corrected or supplied as meta information
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| 19:40 | se6astian | matrix is usually provided as meta information
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| 19:42 | philippej_fr | thanks
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| 19:42 | philippej_fr | also I was thinking about sensor sepcific features
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| 19:42 | se6astian | for longer exposures it might be a complete black frame substraction that is subtracted instead of just a standard FPN profile
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| 19:43 | philippej_fr | like analog gain
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| 19:43 | danieel | that is LG/HG tonemapping in dual-adc systems
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| 19:43 | philippej_fr | or any other trick we don't even know
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| 19:43 | philippej_fr | like plr
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| 19:43 | philippej_fr | black shading
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| 19:43 | se6astian | analog gain happens on the sensor
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| 19:43 | se6astian | you only get digital data
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| 19:44 | philippej_fr | we are trying to find what others are doing that might impact image and where dop has no control as a sale argument for open source :-)
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| 19:45 | se6astian | well the fact alone that we do not know what is happening is enough :)
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| 19:46 | se6astian | maybe they do noise reduction
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| 19:46 | se6astian | who knows...
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| 19:46 | philippej_fr | yes but trying to guess is a goog exercicse
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| 19:46 | philippej_fr | most dop's don't even kno that the raw they get is not raw in the common sense
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| 19:47 | danieel | what would you do with the rawraw? if you have no access to the (proprietary) data fixing algo's from the camera/sensor makers?
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| 19:47 | danieel | it is a question of usability/purpose
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| 19:48 | philippej_fr | of course
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| 19:48 | philippej_fr | but the discussion is that dop's want to regain control of the image they produce
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| 19:49 | philippej_fr | and understand the process
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| 19:49 | danieel | most of them dont even know how to light a scene... and that is far more important than the camera
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| 19:49 | philippej_fr | those are not neutral choices
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| 19:50 | philippej_fr | danieel: that's why we are talking to real dops
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| 19:50 | danieel | and what do they need, have you asked them?
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| 19:52 | philippej_fr | definitely, we are doing a one week workshop in the biggest short film festival in france
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| 19:56 | danieel | so what is the most problematic thing on the other cameras from their point of view?
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| 19:56 | danieel | (except the price, for some)
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| 19:59 | philippej_fr | I have a long article to share, but its in french
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| 19:59 | philippej_fr | if you dare to google translate it, here it is : http://www.afcinema.com/La-texture-de-l-image-a-travers-le-controle-du-pique-dans-les-cameras-numeriques.html
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| 20:00 | philippej_fr | but the point of the article is that engineers don't "get" it, so good luck :-)
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| 20:01 | danieel | the table is wrong
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| 20:04 | danieel | e.g. the dragon uses 19mpx for 6kFF, while for 4k it is just a crop - and can go as low as 8.3Mpx for 4kHD mode
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| 20:05 | philippej_fr | feel free to disagree with the users of our cameras :-)
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| 20:08 | philippej_fr | (denigrate would be a better word)
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| 20:20 | danieel | so what is the point, which the engineers dont get? sacrifice of DR for resolution?
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| 20:36 | philippej_fr | it's hard to summarize the long article, but in short, this dop has concerns about the lack of control he has with current cameras, and it has influence on the pictural quality of what he wants to achieve. Since we are trying to educate them about the potentialities of an open source processing, I'm looking for some explanations of what is potentionaly going on under the hood in current cameras
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| 20:36 | philippej_fr | and what we could do with this project to solve this. It's an open source project, remember ?
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| 21:01 | intracube | the gist of the article sounds like the DoP wants more control over the falloff of fine detail - trading sharpness for artefacts/moire/aliasing
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| 21:05 | intracube | *for less artefacts/moire..
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| 21:33 | Bertl_oO | philippej_fr: one interesting aspect could be watermarking
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| 21:34 | Bertl_oO | i.e. every camera could add an invisible watermark to the recorded images with e.g. a serial number, time, location embedded
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| 21:34 | Bertl_oO | (not in the metadata, but in the image 'raw' data instead)
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| 21:45 | philippej_fr | Bertl_oO: the guy is more asking for more control of image "quality" / processing
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| 21:52 | Bertl_oO | what I mean is, that proprietary cameras could do that already
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| 21:53 | se6astian | time for bed
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| 21:54 | se6astian | good night
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| 21:54 | se6astian | changed nick to: se6astian|away
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| 22:08 | philippej_fr | Bertl_oO: ah yes, definitely
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| 22:11 | intracube | this shows the debayer options on redcine-x at 2:40 - http://vimeo.com/47204496
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| 22:11 | intracube | the standard method is listed as 'full'
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| 22:12 | intracube | not sure if it's a fair comparison, but dcraw has several options for debayering. some are explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing#Algorithms
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| 22:14 | intracube | and there was quite a noticeable difference between some of them with the raw NEF images from my Nikon
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| 22:14 | intracube | *UFraw not dcraw
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| 22:16 | intracube | giving users a range of debayer options for the beta/gamma cams would be great
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| 22:18 | philippej_fr | a good article on debayer algos http://www.stark-labs.com/craig/resources/Articles-&-Reviews/Debayering_API.pdf
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| 22:19 | intracube | it would be interesting to know what red debayering actually does
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| 22:19 | intracube | philippej_fr: thanks
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| 22:20 | philippej_fr | as they say, which is promising imho, "this is an active field of research"
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| 22:20 | intracube | so maybe this is somewhere where open solutions could give more choice than the proprietary tools?
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| 22:20 | philippej_fr | definitely
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| 22:21 | intracube | should say he's never used a red cam or software - maybe there are debayer controls elsewhere or so
| | 22:23 | philippej_fr | afaik, red provides it's own debayering (even in non red apps) and it's not user controlled
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| 22:27 | philippej_fr | arri provides it's own debayering, and a certification program for other applications, when they suit their (undocumented) "quality standards"
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| 22:31 | philippej_fr | good night everyone, and thanks for the feedback & ideas!
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| 22:39 | troy_s | All cameras are open if you are on a significant project
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| 22:47 | intracube | troy_s: in what way?
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| 22:48 | troy_s | In that any production of a given size gets a direct line to the company and the raw data
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| 22:49 | intracube | but I'm guessing there will be NDA
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| 22:50 | troy_s | Of course, but that has no practical issue
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